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Klal Yisroel At Risk
by Yisrael Rutman
Publication: Horizon Magazine

  Rated by 32 users   |   Viewed 2207 times since 2/23/09   |   68 Comments
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2/23/09

Klal Yisrael at Risk

A preview to an interview with Horizon Magazine

by Yisrael Rutman

Rabbi Yaacov Haber has for many years been one of the most creative forces in Torah education. He was National Director of Jewish Education for the Orthodox Union, and founder of the Australian Institute of Torah and the Torah Center of Buffalo. He is also one of the founding members of AJOP, the Association of Jewish Outreach Professionals. Presently, he is Rav of Kehillah Shivtei Yeshurun in Ramat Beit Shemesh and head of TorahLab, which furnishes materials for adult education.

Horizons: I just recently came across another warning against the dangers of the internet to the spiritual wellbeing of our children. Maybe we can begin our discussion by asking how much is the internet to blame for “kids at risk”? Or is that merely scapegoating?

Rabbi Haber: The internet has proven to be capable of a great amount of damage to Jews of all ages. However, it is important to remember that the internet is a reality. There will come a time in the not-so-distant future when it will be impossible to pay a bill, bank, make a phone call or even turn on a light in your house without using the Internet. Instead of forbidding the Internet and non-kosher cell phones, it would seem to be more prudent to teach students how to interact with the Internet responsibly. If we were to forbid everything that we can use the wrong way we must include cars, mp3 players, and for that matter---women! We have to be very careful with internet technology---but forbidding it is not the answer in the long term.

When a teenager leaves us for a more exciting lifestyle, we have to ask ourselves why they are not finding that excitement in our homes and communities. In his remarkable sefer, Tzav V’Ziruz, the Piacezner Rebbe teaches an important lesson in education: Nature abhors a vacuum. The sustenance of the neshama is regesh (emotion). The neshama wants to be filled with a regesh of kedushah. If it doesn’t find kedusha, it will search for any form of regesh, even violent or disgusting regesh. We have to fill our children’s neshamos with healthy Torah regesh. Then the urge to look elsewhere will disappear.

H: So it’s we, the parents and teachers, who are responsible for “kids at risk”?

RH: I don’t think the issue is “kids at risk.” That expression is used because it makes us feel good. It implies that it’s the kids’ fault, that something is wrong with them. The underlying assumption is that the system is okay, just something went wrong with this or that kid who “fell through the cracks.” Really, the opposite is true. They are being pushed through, not cracks, but gaping ditches and huge holes. We have to decide if we’re willing to lose them.

H: You make it sound as if we were making a conscious decision of some kind to send them away…

RH: That’s right. They are lost by design. Our educational system is elitist. It caters to the brightest students. Most teachers do not pay much attention to the average and below-average students. Those who do not excel academically are offered no option. Everything is stigmatized. To tell a kid to get vocational training is tantamount to calling him mentally retarded. Or in Israel to serve in the army, is like telling him he’s a failure. The kids understand this and feel rejected. They say to themselves, “I don’t see myself in this system, so I’ll find my own way.” They find their way on the streetcorners of Har Nof and Ben Yehuda.

H: How did this elitism come about?

RH: There was a decision made after the Holocaust that Yiddishkeit in the U.S. and Israel has to be rebuilt. And that meant producing gedolim, the next Rabbi Akiva Eiger, the next Brisker Rav. And I’ve heard it said that it was understood, perhaps even stated at the time, that since not everybody is going to be a gadol b’Torah, “we are going to have to lose a few.”

What took place over the next forty years was the rise of an elitist system. When I was growing up and went to school, the teachers would speak to the average student, trying to involve and reach everyone in the class. But in an educational system geared to the elite, the teacher cares primarily about the geniuses, certainly not the slower students.

In this system, there are certain known yeshivos at the top, and everybody wants to get into them. From the earliest years, parents and their kids are aspiring and planning to achieve acceptance in those elite schools. The teachers and principals are also caught up in it.

Nor is the issue only one of getting into yeshivos. Even for those in the ‘right” yeshivos, they must have highly trained and capable eyes to learn about each individual talmid and advance him according to his unique potential. The yeshivos all advertise that they cater to the individual. But do they?

H: What reaction do you get when you say things like this?

RH: They admit it’s so, but they say, “What can I do? If I lower my admissions standards, then the parents won’t send their kids to my school. And if I don’t get the best students, I’ll lose my standing with the yeshiva ketanos.” The yeshiva ketanos are in the same bind, having to provide the top students for the yeshivah gedolos, who will accept nothing less. Certain yeshiva high schools offer virtually automatic entry into the elite yeshivos.

H: And naturally parents are ambitious for their kids and want the best for them.

RH: It’s an issue of shidduchim too.

H: An elite shidduch for an elite school graduate.

RH: No, it’s getting into the top yeshiva in order to get the best shidduch. And, of course, that translates into financial support for the future rosh yeshiva who will continue learning in kollel. There’s a joke going around that they want to lift the ban of Rabbeinu Gershom against having more than one wife, because the financial situation being what it is, you need two fathers-in-law to provide support…

I want to emphasize that nothing I am saying here should be taken as a criticism of Gedolei Yisrael. I have the greatest respect for them, have never I made a serious move in my life without consulting gedolim. And they understand that we have to address the needs of all the children. For example, HaRav Aharon Leib Steinman shlit"a endorsed the establishment of Nachal Charedi (a special Israeli army unit for the Torah-observant, which affords boys who do not see their future in Torah learning to discharge their military obligations in a suitable environment prior to entering the work force---Y.R.)Rav Shach zatza"l advocated a quota to ensure the acceptance of Sephardi boys in the Lithuanian yeshivos. They fully realize that Jewish education does not exist for any one group.

Throughout history, Gedolei HaDor that were faced with unusual challenges used Hora’as Sha’ah (emergency measures) to save the day. Often a Horaas Shaa requires a sacrifice of the individual for the Tzibur, but they did what they had to do. From Hillel to the Rambam to pre-war Europe, “work” was never considered a dirty word and was always the option for the majority of frum Jews. The question for today’s Gedolei HaDor is, “Given today’s realities, is it time to go back to tradition, or should this be a permanent change in the culture of Judaism?”

H: Here’s a stupid question: Why not assemble all the educators whose fault it isn’t, and have them decide all at once together a broader admissions policy so that nobody loses standing relative to anyone else in the competition for the top students?

RH: Well, there’s a problem with achdus.

H: Oh.

RH: You know, not everybody can be the tsadik of the generation. Rabbi Dr. Avraham Twersky tells of a discussion he once had during a visit with the Steipler Gaon, whom people often consulted for medical advice. Since he had heard that Rabbi Twersky was a psychiatrist, he inquired about medications for mental illnesses.

“Is anything available that can cure someone from delusions?” asked the Steipler. Dr. Twersky replied that there wasn’t much in the way of medicine for delusional thinking.

“But what if someone has the delusion that he is the greatest tzaddik in the generation?” the Gaon asked.

“No medication can cure that,” Dr. Twersky laughed.

The Gaon shook his head sadly. “Too bad,” he said. “That malady is so widespread.”

H: Sounds like the system is designed to spread the malady.

RH: You know, I would say that it’s not “kids at risk, it’s “Klal Yisrael at risk.” I have worked with hundreds of so-called “kids at risk.” Most of the time these young people are the cream of the crop. Adel, sweet, caring individuals. The kind that, if you say “Well, I have to be going into the city now,” they’ll immediately offer to give you a ride. And it’s often because they are not aggressive or bullying by nature that they are swayed by bad influences, make bad decisions. But they are good kids.

You have to ask yourself : What would happen if they would not fall through the cracks? They have tremendous potential and a role to fill in the Jewish people. There are so many different mandates: tefilah, chesed, writers, administration, etcetera. In an eltist system, these are all b’dieved. But is that really the emes? No one should be an extra. Everyone should feel needed and important---because they are. This is how Yaakov Avinu spoke and blessed all of his children before he left this world: “Each man according to his blessing did he bless them.”

So, if we allow them to fall thorugh the gaps, Klal Yisrael loses. So it’s not just a matter of saving this kid or that kid; but of saving Klal Yisrael. As I said, we have to decide if we can afford to lose them.

H: Do you have a solution?

RH: Well, the beginning of a solution starts in our description of the problem; we have to change the terminology. Calling them “kids at risk” only exacerbates the problem because it makes it sound like they have an illness. Somebody actually suggested that if one in ten children fall into this category, it could be that they are the same one in ten who suffer from learning disabilities.

We need to create options, without a stigma, to encourage respect for ba’alei batim, for people who work and are not roshei yeshivos. And if there’s someone who can start a school which is not elitist, that would, of course, help.

H: Thank you, Rabbi Haber.

RH: Thank you.



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1. We have met the enemy and he is us     2/24/09 - 7:11 AM
Benzion Twerski

This article emphasizes a message that I share constantly (it’s the obvious, so no one can claim to be the originator). “Al pi darko” is not what today’s chinuch and the prevailing frum lifestyles are seeking. We are trying to manufacture gedolim. The trouble is that none of today’s gedolim (and kal vachomer those of earlier times) were products of today’s systems. And we think that doing more of what doesn’t work will be better.

We desperately need talmidei chachomim, poskim, roshei yeshivos, dayanim, and “einei ho’eidoh”. Each of these is a yochid that will not result from any version of mass production. Many of us have actually watched the growth of some of today’s leaders, and can testify that they achieved their status despite the system.

The punchline that I read in this article is that the label “kids at risk” is a misnomer, as it puts the focus on fixing the kids that are broken, not on the source of the problem, “us”. We are the adults at risk, whose chinuch has huge holes and gaps through which these children fall.

I hope the discussion that follows addresses practical inroads that we can make that will help close these gaps. There is plenty of bashing that can be done, but I will be one of those that wonders how that will help anyone.


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2. 2     2/24/09 - 7:58 AM
Anonymous

If we want to produce gedolim--and we surely do--we need to design a system that better targets those with the capacity and potential to become gedolim and nourish their talents and commitment outside of the mainstream system. I would suggest that we set in place some sort of reliable, meaningful system of accountability which is sorely lacking in our batei midrashim. The way it is, a bachur can spend weeks over the shtender accomplishing next to nothing, and no one would ever know. This may have value for that individual bachur as all learning of Torah carries chashivus, but this is not who the tzibur should be supporting.

An aspiring medical student must complete a clearly delineated curriculum of prerequisites and display proficiency in his studies by performing well on examinations. To qualify for addmission, he needs to pass the standardized boards and demonstrate the suitability of his character and personality to the admissions committee. And you can be sure that no scholarship--"support"--will be automatically granted based solely upon the boy's expressed desire to study for the next 7 years.

Even within the community of medical students, there are gradiations. Some merit scholarships based upon outstanding achievement, some don't. Some gain entry into prestigious institutions, others don't. Students who don't make the grade are cut out.

Just as the majority of us are not cut out for the medical profession--each of us for our own reasons--the majority of our bochurim are not cut from a cloth that can be fashioned into gedolim. We need to design an objective process to identify and target those who are and thereby free the rest of the population from their delusions of grandeur and from their misguided assumptions regarding their role in klal Yisroel.


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3.     2/24/09 - 8:20 AM
yoni

i really don't have any time, but I would like to make a few points:

firstly, any class that has more than 8 studends will not be composed of the "Cream of the crop" and will, in all likelihood, be failing said best and brightest. its just a law of the world. (that is, about iq 150 and higher on the wais) (above this no appriciable change in potential occurs.)

and not to brag, but I speak as one of those kids. I'm consistently tested into that range (and most think the score is severely lowballed).

and i'll tell you that we, ie the best and brightest that you desire to make into your gedolim, posses several inherent characteristics that are an anathema to the entire charedi society, including a tendancy to tell it like it is. If we find a sources statements to be problematic, we will tell you so. we also have this habit of forming not always so jewishly pc opininions. (whatever they happen to be on.)

we're curious, and will study things for the fun and intelectual stimulation, and dont appriciate being forbiden to read things. we also need to progress at a faster pace, and have the luxury of comming to our own conclusions. most of us HATE prescripted conclusions, instead (as charedim often require) requiring us to give reasons for the conclusions in order to harmonize disparate sources...


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4. Producing Gedolim     2/24/09 - 9:48 AM
Benzion Twerski

In reality, there are gedolim who did not arrive there with histories of prodigy. A well known story of the Netziv of Volozhin was that he was a weak learner as a young child until he heard his parents crying over his lack of progress. He then applied himself with incredible efforts until he excelled. There is another story, reported by a biographer of the Chasam Sofer, quoted in the Chaye Olam by the Steipler ZT”L of a talmid who came to Pressburg begging to learn in the Chasam Sofer’s yeshiva. He was tested and found to lack the skills to learn and retain much information. When the Chasam Sofer wanted to reject him, he begged, and the Chasam Sofer was stuck admitting him to the yeshiva. He arranged for this bochur to switch chavrusas frequently during the day, and each of these chavrusas was guided to work really hard to help this talmid absorb and retain what he was learning. The talmid eventually “got it”, and began to progress well. He also merited smichas chachomim by the Chasam Sofer, became the Rav of a nearby town, and there are teshuvos written by the Chasam Sofer (published) that were directed to him.

It takes extra energy to assist someone with average or below average potential reach heights. The Netziv seems to have used mostly his own motivation. Others, as in the Chasam Sofer vignette, obtain outside help. The latter is perhaps more similar to what occurs today, and perhaps is the mandate of every yeshiva and mechanech.

I do not believe that chinuch has the mission of producing gedolim. I believe that chinuch has to do the best to provide the best possible for each and every individual. It may mean additional services for those with limitations or poor motivation. It may mean extra time and pressure for the talmid that excels and can handle the extra demands. However, the “group” mentality that governs much of chinuch today, as well as the delusion that any given yeshiva has the mission of producing gedolim are major failures.

I must repeat the statement from my earlier post. If we keep doing what we always did, we’ll keep getting what we always got. The current systems have not succeeded in producing the gedolim we envisioned. More of the same will not fare any better. We need to open our minds to other possibilities. If an individual talmid does not have the capacity to excel in learning, we need to raise him to become an ehlicher baal habos with the appreciation for Torah and mitzvos. And he does not need to feel guilty that he did not achieve what was beyond his grasp.


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5. Difficult to disagree     2/24/09 - 10:22 AM
Avrohom Meir Gluck - Spring Valley, NY - amg@pyes.org

I hate to disagree with Rabbi Haber, who is both a dear friend, and truly one of the Gedolei Hador. But it is Torah and "Ki Heim Chayeninu."

I believe that post-war Gedolei Hador were well aware that Gedolim cannot be produced by the Yeshivos, but despite the Yeshivos. (People like Rabbi Horowitz, Rabbi Haber, Rabbi Betzalel Rudinsky and Rabbi Yisroel Reisman, did not become great because of the yeshiva entrance policies and curriculum, but because of outside forces, such as unique parents, upbringing and personal circumstances.) The Gedolim never, in my opinion, designed Yeshivos to create Gedolim, rather to perpetuate klal yisroel. They owe us no apology and we don't need to cite "Haroas Shaoh" to excuse them.

In fact, it is our consumer culture that shaped the Yeshivos into what they are today, spurred on by the machinations of our ever-growing "kannoim" population; perhaps with most of this culture having been well intentioned.

A wise secular Jew once said, "The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them." It appears to me that the Ribono Shel Olom is forcing us from that very "level", in the course of today's trying times, Hashem Yerachem.


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6. rabbi gluck where have you been till now     2/24/09 - 10:45 AM
yitzy

thank you for finally standing up to torah ideals. my only question is, why do you not protest rabbi horowitz's conatant attack on daas torah, as well as the loshon horah blogs that are a the main part of this anti torah web sight.


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7. Chemotherapy as a Metaphor, redux, both disturbing     2/24/09 - 11:47 AM
anonymousfornow

This seems very much like Rabbi Rosenblum's article, Chemotherapy as a Metaphor. The whole thing is very disturbing. I appreciate people of the caliber of those in the article, R' YH, Dr. Twerski, R' Gluck, et al taking this on.

I hate the thought of gedolim actually saying that some will fall by the wayside. It doesn't seem like derocheha darchei noam. But I don't want to belabor this and have this become a diatribe and referendum against certain gedolim. That is equally untenable.

So after we analyze how we got from there to here, then what? And let me expand on what here is: the shidduch crisis, for starters. We have people with blinders on who will say that the answer is that boys should start younger, and the girls should wait. Wow, that's a basis for a generation of batei ne'eman b'Yisrael! As I hear everyone wax poetic about how girls should develop themselves (as Rav Hirsch said, for what he wanted to accomplish, he needed to marry a woman) no one talks about the boys developing themselves. What just is it that these latter-day Rav Hirsches want to do that they need these wonderful girls we're producing? Are the boys worthy of them? What are we as parents doing to produce young men of such a caliber?

Not much. Instead a new, vulgar vocabulary has evolved. You have the boy who "just wants to learn for a few years", "who wants to go to E"Y for a few years and then work". It is so cavalier, casual and crude.

If the boys will gain so much in E"Y let them learn there for a few years BEFORE getting married.

Why is there no appreciation and understanding of reality? Back in the day a year or two of kollel involved mesirus nefesh, and was for the serious boys. For those who could go veiter, more power to them. But we don't give our boys the options these days without labeling them.

There are pockets of us who are doing what is best for our children, for each one as individuals. Soon, we will so much doubt ourselves and our sanity that all we will be able to do, like the Breslover story of the king and his vizier and the insanity-inducing crops, is find the jewel on the forehead of our co-thinkers, and at least we will KNOW.


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8.     2/24/09 - 12:46 PM
Attorney

Wow! This man speaks the truth.

I am another kid who could have easily slipped through the massive cracks of our religion. I grew up in Dallas, in those days a tiny Jewish community with one day school. I had too much creativity and interest in exploring things not being fed to me by the teachers. I understand the frustration of the teachers who I might have slowed down their lesson plans. The simple fact is Torah is supposed to be for everyone, not just those who fit neatly in a box. I was labeled as impossible to succeed, sent for testing etc. instead of ASKING ME WHAT IS WRONG. Kids aren’t as stupid as adults assume they are. Life was miserable with parents taking the critical school’s words literally, I was meant to fail in life.

Thank God the school had a co-ed high school with an open admission policy for all Jewish children, regardless of how bitter they might be with the religion imposed on them. Rabbi Steinman was an awesome principal who saw the need to reach EVERY student in his school, regardless of his/her level. He hired my best rebbe, Rabbi Finkel who believed in the Hirschian philosophy of “Chanoch L’naar” meaning teaching a person in a way the child finds applicable for life. He gave the option of three different level tests to make sure they meet EVERY learning style, and hit the kids strengths. This care made EVERY KID find success.

He picked me up from the dumps, proved to me that I HAVE HOPE, and most importantly HE CONVINCED MY PARENTS AND SCHOOL I AM WORTH SOMETHING. Even though he left after that year, which took me for a loop I had success to remember. Those memories were a catalyst to reach further heights in high school and college. Whenever an issue comes up at work or with my wife, I try my best to remember the lessons taught by my rebbe.

It’s a pain for a teacher to write three tests and really work to make EVERY kid succeed, but it’s their job. If a teacher doesn’t believe that EVERY CHILD HAS TO SUCCEED they should resign that day. The kids aren’t failures, it’s the teachers and administration who allows them to cop out.


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9.     2/24/09 - 1:36 PM
Anonymous

I believe the schools that are doing things the right way should be lauded for their efforts, and so i write to single out Machon Bais Yaakov HS in Broolyn, NY. In this school, admission decisions are not based on having a 100% average. The teachers and hanhalah are willing and ready to work with a child who is not necessarily academically inclined. No one is forced to take unnecessary Regents that they cannot handle so that the school can boast high standards. A lone voice in the wilderness, Rabbi Yanofsky does not push seminary on girls who dont need it and parents who cannot afford it. This place is about chinuch and chinuch only--it's not about the egos of those who run the school. And--lo and behold: the girls come out as fine and wonderful as any of our other Bais Yaakov alumni , do beautiful shidduchim, and go on to build as shtark and Torahdig homes as any.


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10. doesn't fit     2/24/09 - 3:05 PM
Anonymous

When I was growing up and went to school, the teachers would speak to the average student, trying to involve and reach everyone in the class.

Hmmm, that doesn't fit with what he said about the plan, after the Holocaust, to aim to produce gedolim. If that was the aim, then when R' Haber was growing up and going to school, the teachers would have been focusing on the above average students!

He's saying that now - over 60 years after the Holocaust, they're focusing on the above-average ...


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11. quota for sefardim     2/24/09 - 3:07 PM
Anonymous

Rav Shach zatza"l advocated a quota to ensure the acceptance of Sephardi boys in the Lithuanian yeshivos.

uh, is that supposed to be to his credit?

It's actually despicable that there is A QUOTA on sefardim! Why did R' Shach advocate a QUOTA on our fellow sefardic Jews? Why can't they take the entrance exam like everyone else and be accepted regardless as to where their parents or grandparents were born?


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12. Simple Misunderstanding     2/24/09 - 4:17 PM
Anonymous

Some Quota's are to cap maximum percentage and some are to require at least a sizable amount from experience with the Israeli system it is obvious which form of the quota Rav Shach was referring to


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13.     2/24/09 - 4:20 PM
Anonymous

baloney

It's to minimize the number of sefardim in the ashkenazi yeshivos because sefardim aka frankim aka black are 2nd class citizens.

Chareidi ashkenazim don't want to marry them and don't want too many of them in their yeshivos. So if they qualify and grovel and are committed to betraying their sefardic heritage, a few of them will be allowed into the hallowed halls of ashkenazi yeshivos. And they had better be grateful.

Same thing with girls. Frum Sefardic girls are discriminated against because they are viewed as not quite good enough for upperclass, white, ashkenazi girls to mingle with.


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14. 7     2/24/09 - 5:50 PM
Anonymous

The aspect of the shidduch crisis to which you refer is just another consumer-driven reality. If boys are arrogantly and unabashedly demanding a cerain level of financial support and have no plans for how they will take care of their families, that is only because legions of girls and their parents seek this type of arrangement.

I had been wondering about how the downturn of the economy would influence the role of support in shidduchim. The little i've heard and seen indicates that limited funds have only inflated the boys' demands and pursuit of the illusion of financial security. In my view, the arrogance of these demands so contradicts the middos and humility required for kinyan haTorah; it is painful to imagine the level of desperation experienced by refined, frum, "growing" girls that would motivate them to make such lamentable concessions.


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15. Some Thoughts     2/24/09 - 6:12 PM
JN - NJ

Yitzy: Give it a rest already.

The question for today’s Gedolei HaDor is, “Given today’s realities, is it time to go back to tradition, or should this be a permanent change in the culture of Judaism?” Here's the problem, IMHO: Because we live life completely backward-looking, the opinion of those in charge is that innovations can't be made. It's almost like the Titanic's captain refusing to alter course because a captain with greater experience, say, navigated the same course a week earlier.


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16. What A Chillul Hashem     2/24/09 - 10:23 PM
Dave - NY, NY

When I decided to move to Brooklyn from the West coast, I was unfamiliar with her neighborhoods. I came to visit Manhattan’s sister borough in May to find an apartment before my summer move. New York was dark and rainy; borderline apolocalyptic. As I visited apartments with my companion Conner, I based my judgment on a very important, highly scientific test: The “Do I feel comfortable walking these streets at night in the dark without fear of getting jumped, groped and/or murdered?” Test. Majority of the neighborhoods I looked at failed—until I came to Borough Park.

Borough Park is in South Brooklyn below Park Slope and above Coney Island. I could tell the neighborhood was quaint based on the fact I walked by two elementary schools within two blocks of one another. Even in the late May downpour, I felt instantaneously comfortable and connected. The apartment I came to see was wonderful. 1,200 sq. ft, 2.5 rooms, top floor and a roof view that was enviable. The building owners are a mother-daughter duo and spoke with such heavy New York accents, I could barely understand what they were saying—but I knew I liked them. I trusted them. And more importantly, I trusted the neighborhood.

I signed a lease.

Walking back to the subway, I noticed a few men in wide brimmed hats and heavy overcoats. They had curls at their temples that tumbled past their ears. These men were accompanied by women pushing double-seated strollers. As I continued down my new street, I noticed all of the women had identical haircuts: a blunt cut brunette bob. Because of the rain, they covered their hair with plastic bonnets. After a few more blocks I figured out they were all wearing wigs. And I also figured out I just signed a lease in a Jewish neighborhood.

When I arrived back to Oregon I googled my new neighborhood and found out my speculation was correct. Borough Park was the largest Hasidic neighborhood in America. Crown Heights Brooklyn, made famous by Jewish reggae rapper, Matisyahu, was number two.

I arrived in Brooklyn full-time in the dead of summer. The July humidity was almost enough to make me trek back across country without looking back. It was unlike anything I have ever experienced. There was no way to remain cool and there was no way to remain clean. Now that the weather was bright and clear, I saw many more of my new neighbors. Dressed in their wool coats and slacks, their dark brimmed hats were lined with white residue from their head sweating in the 95-degree sun.

I was immediately singled out. My wild curly, blonde hair paired with my kelly green shirt and shorts didn’t make the best first impression.

I found myself intimidated by this culture. Never making eye contact, they didn’t acknowledge me. They looked right through me. I constantly had to step off the curb so they could pass. It was like I wasn’t present on the street at all.

My father and I went to the local hardware store to purchase an air conditioner. The Hasidic man behind the counter didn’t help us. After waiting at the counter to pay for what we came for, the shopkeeper looked at me and simply walked away.

My dad had an idea.

When he returned without me, but with Conner’s brother Sam 15 minutes later, he was sold the unit without a problem.

Summer continued with like experiences. I felt guilty walking the streets in dresses and shorts. Women would stare at me while waiting in line at the local, non-Hasidic owned drug store. I found myself getting more and more frustrated as time wore on.

The first five months of living in Borough Park, I didn't talk to a single resident. It was an unspoken agreement. I became a silent observer. I was fascinated by the Hasidic way of living and I started noticing their subtleties.

Like how Hasidic men would cut in front of Hasidic women in various lines. How the usually packed streets were vacant on the Sabbath (Saturdays). How their children go to school Sunday through Thursday. How not once have I seen a Hasidic man or woman walk at a leisurely pace. They walked very quick and with purpose. Their coats are very long, sometimes covering their feet and they looked like they were floating because of it.

A few months ago while waiting to pay for some cards at Duane Reade, the local drug store, a Hasidic man cut in front of me. Usually I am very non-confrontational, but today I was a bit feisty. I walked in front of him and placed my items on the counter. A moment later I could feel his chest on my back, letting his presence known.

I was an outcast in this neighborhood and this man made sure I understood. So when a Hasidic woman reached out to me one Fall night, in one of the most bizarre encounters of my life, to say I was shocked is a severe understatement.

While walking home from the subway with Conner around midnight, we noticed makeshift tents all over my neighborhood. 12x12 foot wooden boxes were assembled and covered in tarps on the sidewalks. As we walked by each one, we could hear conversation inside.

Upon reaching my apartment entryway, a Hasidic woman who I recognized as living in the building next to mine approached us.

“I need you to reset my oven,” she states in broken English.

Completely caught off guard, I ask her to repeat herself.

“Here, you go with her,” she says while pointing at her pre-pubescent daughter in the doorway of their building.

Without giving it a second thought I go with her. To reset the oven. At midnight.

While walking up the never-ending staircase, I start to overheat. Not because of the incline, but because I have no idea what I’m doing or where I’m going. I turn to look behind me and Conner has matching bewilderment on his face.

When we reach the apartment I notice instantly it is three times the size of mine and I’m immediately envious. Furnished in dark oak and gold, the home is rich and warm. When we walk into the living room, we are met by an audience. Roughly seven or eight children look at us in confusion. My red pants and knee-high boots were not helping.

“Here,” says the daughter while pointing at the oven.

The oven is running perfectly fine. It’s on, baking something at 400 degrees.

“Push this down arrow button,” I’m told.

So I do.

“Keep pushing it until 350.”

So I did.

“Ok. Thank you.”

I don’t think I even returned the sentiment because I was so confused. Why couldn’t she press the button three times? My mind is racing. If they were to kill Conner and I right now, no one would know. Seriously.

As we turn to run back down the stairs to safety, we are blocked by the mother who was coming up them.

“Ok, now I need you to program my lights,” she says. “In the back room.”

Now I’m officially feverish and suffering from slight tunnel vision.

We follow her to the dark back room where we are met by her older son. She points at the light timer on the ground of their laundry room, and Conner picks it up on command. As she and her son are speaking Yiddish to one another, Conner and I are wild eyed.

“Ok, he says you have to turn it three clicks to the right,” she instructs.

Conner clicks it times three.

“Ok, now you have to put this pin in it to set it.”

Conner sets the pin.

“Ok. Thank you.”

I yell “You’re Welcome” over my shoulder as I’m already out the door.

“Here, I must give you cake,” she says.

We enter her kitchen and she cuts us a generous piece of marble cake. Feeling a little more at ease while giving her countless children awkward smiles, I ask, “do you mind telling us why we needed to do these things and what the huts are outside?”

“Why yes, it is our holiday, Sukkot [pronounced sue-COAT]. Our men eat, drink and sleep outside for seven days,” she says. “And we cannot do any kind of work for a week.”

Like setting light timers and ovens.

Thanking her for the cake, we descend the stairs.

“So when do you work, just in case we need something else?” she asks us. “Well are you able to call us?” I ask.

“No.”

“What about leave us a note?”

“No.”

“Ok, well if you see us outside, we’ll come help if you need it.”

Note taking and dialing were all considered exerting themselves during this time.

It was at this moment I felt a part of this culture. Hasidic Jews are a quiet, ultra orthodox culture. I get it.

On New Years Eve an acquaintance I don’t know well approached me at a bar.

“How come you live in that neighborhood?” she asked rudely. “I’m Jewish and I wouldn’t even live in that neighborhood.”

Well good. Then don’t. Because it’s my neighborhood. And when they need their ovens set, I’m the only gentile they've got. And I'm ok with that."


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17. excellent article, but I have a suggestion     2/25/09 - 5:00 AM
Moshe Mann - Migdal HaEmek - moshem1@sce.ac.il

I am a huge fan of Rabbi Horowitz, who has once again written an excellent article daring to critique the "establishment" and not shying away from hot topics!

But instead of merely complaining and criticizing, I have a simple yet daring solution: Why not offer children the choice to become Modern Orthodox?

While I am no apologist for Modern Orthodoxy (I am personally a big follower of Rav Eliezer Berkovits z"tl), its quite obvious to all the readers of these columns that all of the problems that Rabbi Horowitz declares are affecting the frum community - be they conformity, kannoim running rampant, forcing kids to become gedolim, banning books and concerts - are a thinly veiled reference to problems almost exclusively among chareidim!!

While it is true there is unfortunately no shortage of OTD's from the Modern Orthodox, those occur for an entirely different reason, which is generally speaking a lack of hislahavus in the Yiddishkeit they were raised with, and almost none of them go off the derech for the reasons that Rabbi Horowitz sites.

Besides, Reb Yonason Rosenblum wrote a couple of months ago that a chareidi OTD is much worse off then a Modern Orthodox OTD, since the latter is generally a decent, well off person who has simply removed the externalities of Yidishkeit, while the former has to first get some menschlichkeit before keeping Torah uMitzvos.

So lets keep our options open, and don't be afraid to state explicitly what Rabbi Horowitz has been stating implicitly all along: Modern Orthodoxy, perhaps with some adjustments, is a viable option for or children and or community.


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18.     2/25/09 - 9:15 AM
Anonymous

What reliable source is there that the current Yeshiva was meant as an Ho'oras Shoh?In the Yeshivas themselves they always say their purpose isn't to produce Gedolim but rather for Torah L'Shmoh?(The blog world doesn't seem to share that as a value which is why I wouldn't discuss the merits of the current Yeshiva system, of lack of it, online.)


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19.     2/25/09 - 9:18 AM
yoni

torah lishma is a wonderful value.

perverting torah values by insisting that people spend their lives in kollel is a reprehensible one.

torah says that a man must go out to work. EVERY man.

there are grounds for the occasional exception, but insisting on men going into kollel is simply a perversion of torah values.


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20. Solutions?     2/25/09 - 10:34 AM
Rocco Lampone - kitbrain71@yahoo.com

In the aggragate, the focus on the elite is not a modern invention, it is somewhat representative of the yeshivos in Lita. However, the distinction is that then yeshiva (gedolah)attendance was voluntary as opposed to the current situation. (Even the Chazon Ish espoused the elitist model)

When children grow up watching a father who cherishes Torah study- through actions, words, attitude, etc- the child has a much greater chance of succeeding in the current system; he is being taught to emulate his parents.

What about the child who was not raised in such an enivornment and when he reaches mesivta age the parents are pressuring him to be better than them? The teenager feals coerced by his parents to live a lifestyle that they don't follow.

I witnessed an incident that sent chills up my spine. I was at a Motzey Shabbos learning program and I saw a father, who was clearly unmotivated, telling his son, with a somber look on his face, 'Torah is the most geshmake thing in the world'

A child who enjoys learning will probably make it in our system. If the parents enjoyment's are spiritual, than the kids....

BTW, the pesach in the hotel does not convey the message that the main enjoyment is the spiritual one.


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21. My two cents     2/25/09 - 10:51 AM
Benzion Twerski

Actually, some people belong in Kollel. The mishna describes a need of every city to have “asoroh batlonim”, and interesting expression referring to a minimum of ten people who engage in Torah study all day. We may inquire whether the current concept of Kollel fulfills this mandate, and we may disagree on how to answer this. The issue is that we do need to have bnei kollel. My bone to pick with the ‘system” is that kollel as a career is not intended for everyone. It is a mistake for every yeshiva bochur to direct his life that way, and it is an equal travesty for girls to universally set their criteria for a shidduch for a boy who will sit interminably in kollel.

There are many explanations for the mishna “Kol Torah she’ain imo melocho sofah betailoh”, and Torah that is not accompanied by work will deteriorate in the end. (My translation – I’m sure Artscroll and others could do better). One would also be more than a bit horrified to observe that many kollelim begin their seder quite late in the morning and have no night seder. I had a considerably longer schedule in yeshiva (though without responsibilities of a family and home). But the kollel yungerman has pledged to dedicate his time to learning at someone else’s expense. Is this a good investment?

I hate sounding like a cynic about kollel, but I have not noticed the great products emerging from the investments made. I have seen way too many of these yungerleit everywhere else, without much regard to their required schedule of limudim. I am not advocating a policed kollel. However, I would like to see that those who direct their lives be those with the potential to go far, and possess the true commitment to take their mission very seriously. It is not a place to hide while avoiding work, training, or accepting responsibility for a family and home. With some of such individuals occupying space in kollelim, we have a swelling of bnei kollel that dilute the true value of a precious element of every frum community. The current system has demanded this, and we need to somehow cope with it.

Just a comment on the “elitist” perspective. What was once such a view has little resemblance to today. There was nothing wrong with glorifying the elite, those who dedicated themselves to Torah study. This was not targeted at being exclusive, just an appropriation of extra importance. That is not the elitism of today, which is exclusionary. Today, we have mass frowning upon those who direct themselves to being “frum baalei batim”, even the machzikei Torah (except when it comes to bestowing honors that lead to more money for the mosdos). What the Chazon Ish espoused is not what we observe today.


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22. Response to Yitzi     2/25/09 - 11:05 AM
Avrohom Meir Gluck - Spring Valley, NY - amg@pyes.org

Yitzi says: "thank you for finally standing up to torah ideals. my only question is, why do you not protest rabbi horowitz's conatant attack on daas torah, as well as the loshon horah blogs that are a the main part of this anti torah web sight. "

You have me at a disadvantage because your words indicate that you either know me or know of me. I, on the other hand, have no idea, whom I am addressing. (You may note that my email address is posted and I am available for discussion. I note, that your's is not.)

You will undoubtably find my response unbelievable, but, for the record, I'll give it a try.

1) Rabbi Horowitz IS Daas Torah, as I have personally heard and witnessed from other, older Gedolei Torah.

2) I do agree that it is sad that individuals like youself use this site to write loshon Horah, (please review your post to me and sefer Chofetz Chaim), but that is your own poor choice.

3) I do not believe that this site is anti-Toras Moshe, only perhaps, Toras-Yitzi.

I wish you well. Feel free to write to me.


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23.     2/25/09 - 11:50 AM
Anonymous

I do agree that it is sad that individuals like youself use this site to write loshon Horah,

So why does this site allow it?

Moreover why does this site seem to encourage it, as evident by the comments on it?

Why do many of those who hate Torah and those who keep identify so strongly with this blog?


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24.     2/25/09 - 1:03 PM
yoni

because most people who leave torah, believe it or not, do so only reluctantly, and miss many many special things about torah study.

They leave because they cannot stand the hypocracy and shtuyot that go in in our world, and desire to see us rid of it.

I for one agree with them. it drives me mad as well, one reason why I live in a very, very out of town neigboorhood. (baltimore sounds extremely intown to me.)


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25.     2/25/09 - 1:05 PM
yoni

and yes rabbi twerski.

it is true, there is a strong precedent for ten batlanim.

and ten batlanim would be fine by any measure, but what we have today, doesn't qualify, sadly.


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26. re Dr. Twerski (21)     2/25/09 - 1:51 PM
anonymousfornow

Something that might keep the bnei kollel on their toes is payment strictly linked to shemiras sedorim. Unfortunately, many kollelim today simply don't pay. One 40-something rav commented that in his day, he knew his rent was covered. I don't think this is so for his son-in-law.

And re your "bone to pick about the system": I remember being asked about a boy who loves learning and does so with commitment. When I mentioned that he's a ba'al achryus and when the time comes - this could be years, or sooner, as he is a realist - he might not have a degree but has enough connections in a few fields that he will be able to take on life's obligations, the woman got a bit huffy and said that was not for her daughter. Any guy with any shred of a plan clearly was not going to make Torah umenoso enough for her daughter.


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27. re Dr. Twerski (21)     2/25/09 - 1:51 PM
anonymousfornow

Something that might keep the bnei kollel on their toes is payment strictly linked to shemiras sedorim. Unfortunately, many kollelim today simply don't pay. One 40-something rav commented that in his day, he knew his rent was covered. I don't think this is so for his son-in-law.

And re your "bone to pick about the system": I remember being asked about a boy who loves learning and does so with commitment. When I mentioned that he's a ba'al achryus and when the time comes - this could be years, or sooner, as he is a realist - he might not have a degree but has enough connections in a few fields that he will be able to take on life's obligations, the woman got a bit huffy and said that was not for her daughter. Any guy with any shred of a plan clearly was not going to make Torah umenoso enough for her daughter.


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28.     2/25/09 - 2:07 PM
Anonymous

They leave because they cannot stand the hypocracy and shtuyot that go in in our world, and desire to see us rid of it.

Baloney.And I won't believe it until I meet a very principled, worthy of looking up to, for their sacrifice for universal values in his/her own personal life, individual who went off the Derech.

Just one.

And then I'll show them many non hypocritical tzadikim in the frum world they can return to.


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29. Here's An Expirement For Poster #28     2/25/09 - 4:08 PM
Dave - NY, NY

Stand outside any store with a mixed clientele and see what percentage of each hold the door open for the person right behind them.


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30. to anonfornow     2/25/09 - 4:12 PM
CB

Something that might keep the bnei kollel on their toes is payment strictly linked to shemiras sedorim.

If this is the only way to keep "bnei kollel" in kollel then this is the clearest indictment of the system that produced and encouraged such "bnei kollel."

I see three main problems here:

1. Adults who require behavior management to be where they are expected to be, doing what they are expected to be doing are not the ones who belong in kollel at community expense.

2. A system that produces adult "bnei kollel" who cannot dependably learn when they are supposed to be learning, with commitment, absent threat of monetary repercussions is clearly broken.

3. I think behavior management itself it a major factor in the development of many of our communal problems. No one will do anything today - no matter how committed they profess to be - without knowing what the "reward" or conversely the punishment will be.

The generations that were/are raised on behavior modification are the "magi'a li - it's coming to me" generations. Totally self-absorbed by design, and lacking basic comprehension of our most fundamental Torah values because all they were ever taught was/is "What's in it for me if I do this? What'll happen to me if I don't?"


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31. Disagree with Rabbi Gluck's Comment No. 22     2/25/09 - 4:16 PM
Respectfully Disagree

According to Rabbi A.M. Gluck, his co-director of Project Yes: "Rabbi Horowitz is Daas Torah".

We will allow Rabbi Gluck to exaggerate somewhat his colleague's accomplishments. However, the truth is probably as follows: * Rav Horowitz is a leading Mechanech (Jewish educator), who has made major contributions to this most important field. * Numerous Jews have benefitted from his advice. * However, certain activities of his need improvement; i.e., this Web site. Although many are benefitting from it, it is not 100% Kosher. I have checked with leading Rabbonim and they agree that Lashon HaRa (Halachically forbidden talk) and Hotzaas Shem Ra (malicious libel) -- which are common here -- should never be tolerated, especially in a public forum like this one.

The simple, but admittedly expensive solution: moderation; i.e., review and editing of all comments before they are posted. Lack of monetary resources is no excuse for transgressing the Torah. Either do it properly -- in accordance with the Torah -- or don't do it.

And the proposed -- but Halachically risky -- Google ads, proposed for this Web site are definitely NOT the solution!


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32.     2/25/09 - 4:44 PM
Anonymous

I maintain that the only way to keep pple who belong in kollel learning and to ensure that others are spared the pitfall of extorting funding for to a life to which they are ill-suited is by enforcing standards of accountability.

I am not qualified to decide the combination of traits that make a person an appropriate candidate for kollel, but surely this can be discussed and identified, at least within a range. Today, the "range" includes anyone Jewish in pants.

Additionally, there has to be a recognizable breadth and depth of accomplishment over time which demonstrates the learner's worthiness to be supported by the tzibur. Again, I am no in a position to decide what the means of assessment should be, nor do they have to be identical for every learner/yeshiva, but cetainly some measure of accountability would be appropriate to help guide all of our boys in the direction which would elicit the best of whom they are.


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33. 31     2/25/09 - 4:48 PM
Anonymous

So why do you log on if you feel this site is so sinfully inappropriate?


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34.     2/25/09 - 4:59 PM
yoni

And then I'll show them many non hypocritical tzadikim in the frum world they can return to.

in my stay in new york I met many, many, many people who were hypocrites. they are, regretably, a dime a dozen in our world.

not only that, half the time those who are most looked up to are the worst in this category.


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35.     2/25/09 - 5:04 PM
Anonymous

I agree with CB, #30.

In the secular workforce, supervisors complete reports to rate the work of their subordinates. No employee gets a rating of 'excellent' for showing up on time; that is the minimal requirment. Employees who come late, show lack of seriousness and motivation, and take frequent breaks to socialize get pink slips.

By contrast,a yeshiva bochur who comes to sedarim , arrives on time, arrives at minyan promptly,and actually learns during sedarim is considered a great guy who can command years of support from a long list of girls fainting to date him.

I think we ought to rethink our standards.


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36. Comments 22 & 31     2/25/09 - 11:51 PM
Disagree with Rabbi Gluck

Commenter No. 31 is right. Let me add: This blog was poisoned by the Mondrowitz pieces and the reactions to them.

Previously, nearly all the comments herein were acceptable, with very few exceptions. But the extreme reactions to the three Mondrowitz essays, which included malicious libel of prominent Rabbis (while this site was not monitored because our host was away for several days), suddenly transformed this into a typical "anything goes" blog.


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37. Anon #32     2/26/09 - 1:20 AM
CB

Accountability, definitely. But financial disincentives are not the way to go. This is not the corporate world. We are talking about Torah here. Roshei Yeshivos and Mashgichim need to know - really know - every bachur/avreich personally and make an individual determination based on what they know. But that ain't happening. No one knows anyone anymore. Personal relationship, what's that? This is the age of mass chinuch. No one today is held to any measure of accountability. Broken.


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38. cb 37 from#32     2/26/09 - 6:11 AM
Anonymous

Agreed. I am not talking about money. I am talking about accountability in terms of evaluating what the individual is capable of accomplishing in learning by sheer kishronos and peronality, as well as what he actually produces during his years in the beis medrash.

By these standards, the population who belongs in kollel is significantly smaller than what we have today. The majority of our bochurim need a different mahalach--one that encourages love of Torah and commitment to avodas Hashem, but that does not nourish delusions that they are destined to become the next gadol hador.


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39. the original     2/26/09 - 7:30 AM
Tzvi

This article was originally posted here - http://www.torahlab.org/haberblog/klal_yisrael_at_risk you may find the comments there interesting as well


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40. 37 - hanhala knowing the students     2/26/09 - 10:48 AM
anonymousfornow

This is a big issue. You have boys going to several yeshivos post high school: stage one, immediately post high school, stage two, E"Y, and stage three, Lakewood or similar, but likely not the same yeshiva they were in in stage one. We have to build in to the system at every age the need to have a strong shaichus to a mashgiach, rebbe, etc. who will truly counsel them in their best interests. B"H many boys do, buy many don't.


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41. Anonymous for now...........?     2/26/09 - 11:06 AM
Reuven - Flatbush

I hope that you remain anonymous for all eternity.


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42. re 41     2/26/09 - 11:35 AM
anonymousfornow

Not sure what you mean, but I guess I'd better.


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43.     3/1/09 - 1:29 AM
Yoel B

The Wisdom of Crowds is a fascinating book by James Surowiecki from a few years ago. He opens with an anecdote from the 19th century CE in which Francis Galton learned, much to his surprise, that a county fair crowd guessed the weight of an ox better than any expert; according to Wikipedia, "the average was closer to the ox's true butchered weight than the estimates of most crowd members, and also closer than any of the separate estimates made by cattle experts..."

Surowiecki described several criteria for a "wise" crowd that can do this sort of thing; again, Wikipedia: Diversity of opinion: Each person should have private information even if it's just an eccentric interpretation of the known facts.

Independence: People's opinions aren't determined by the opinions of those around them.

Decentralization People are able to specialize and draw on local knowledge.

Aggregation Some mechanism exists for turning private judgments into a collective decision.

On the other hand, a foolish crowd is characterized by being, according to Wikipedia;

Too homogeneous: Surowiecki stresses the need for diversity within a crowd to ensure enough variance in approach, thought process, and private information.

Too centralized: The Columbia shuttle disaster, which Surowiecki blames on a hierarchical NASA management bureaucracy that was totally closed to the wisdom of low-level engineers.

Too divided: The US Intelligence community, the 9/11 Commission Report claims, failed to prevent the 11 September 2001 attacks partly because information held by one subdivision was not accessible by another. Surowiecki's argument is that crowds (of intelligence analysts in this case) work best when they choose for themselves what to work on and what information they need. (He cites the SARS-virus isolation as an example in which the free flow of data enabled laboratories around the world to coordinate research without a central point of control...

Too imitative: Where choices are visible and made in sequence, an "information cascade" can form in which only the first few decision makers gain anything by contemplating the choices available: once past decisions have become sufficiently informative, it pays for later decision makers to simply copy those around them. This can lead to fragile social outcomes.

Too emotional: Emotional factors, such as a feeling of belonging, can lead to peer pressure, herd instinct, and in extreme cases collective hysteria.

Summing it up, a community is wiser when it has a good assortment of people who have independent knowledge and opinions, aren't easily swayed by others' opinions, have local/specific professional knowledge, and there is a way of coordinating all the opinions.

It's interesting to look a groups decision making and educational approach with these ideas in mind.


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44. Yoel     3/1/09 - 5:46 AM
Anonymous

A very interesting, "democratic" viewpoint.

The author observes: "Essentially, any time most of the people in a group are biased in the same direction, it's probably not going to make good decisions. So when diverse opinions are either frozen out or squelched when they're voiced, groups tend to be dumb. And when people start paying too much attention to what others in the group think, that usually spells disaster, too. For instance, that's how we get stock-market bubbles, which are a classic example of group stupidity: instead of worrying about how much a company is really worth, investors start worrying about how much other people will think the company is worth. The paradox of the wisdom of crowds is that the best group decisions come from lots of independent individual decisions."

Additionally, the book notes that positive decisions are borne of conflict and struggle between dissenting ideas, rather than from conformity and consensus. From this perspective, our society is structured in a way which inherently impedes progress by promoting conformity and concern with public approval, silencing dissent, and by denying the value of individual thought (as an example, see post 85 in Chareidi Classic).

Rather, the system preserves its status quo by allowing decisions to be consistently imposed from the top down, without allowing input from those lower down who, by virtue of their expertise and experience may possess greater insight into a particular problem than those at the top.


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45. Confused     3/1/09 - 10:46 AM
Tayerreh Baal Habos

>It's interesting to look a groups decision making and educational approach with these ideas in mind.

But isn't Daas Torah qualitatively different that other aspects of knowledge?


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46. Confused     3/1/09 - 10:47 AM
Tayerreh Baal Habos

Correction: But isn't Daas Torah qualitatively different than other types of knowledge?


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47. 46     3/1/09 - 2:04 PM
Anonymous

Daas Torah is a unique insight granted by HKB"H to specific individuals of unusual caliber who immerse their entire personalities and lives in pursuit of understanding and living dvar Hashem. Individuals who are zoche to this binah yeserah are neither infallible malachim nor neveim, but they are more skilled than the rest of us in understanding the correct,True way to apply Torah to life. So, yes,in an important sense the view of those in possession of this unique perspective should be more influential than the opinions of the rest of us.

Their skill, however, lies in understanding how to implement Torah in a given situation; it does not necessarily lie in a superior understanding of every situation. For example, in the case of a medical issue that requires halachic guidance, Daas Torah can help us ascertain our halachic obligation. It cannot, however,serve as a substitute for a professional, trained doctor's view in evaluating the situation and determining possible consequences. The doctor frames the situation; the Rav can then use this information to determine what the halachah requires of the patient to do.

Same applies to our chinuch situation: Daas Torah can provide guidance but only if they are given an accurate picture of what is happening in our classrooms--and, unfortunately,on our streets. The pple who best understand the situation are those in the field who confront the system and its impact on a day-to-day basis: mechanchim, parents, even the children... This does not imply that they are more chashuv than those in possession of Daas Torah, but it does mean that they are better qualified to assess a particular situation by virtue of their unique perspective and experience.


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48.     3/1/09 - 2:36 PM
Anonymous

R horowitz is no way near Daas Torah all the loshon hora charei bashing is with his approval he just dosent have enough guts to say it so he lives it to the commenters.


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49. To the 40s:     3/2/09 - 3:08 AM
Yardena - Israel

#41, Reuven: I don't know if you realize this, but your comment to anonymousfornow sounded very threatening.

#43, Yoel B.: That was one of the best posts. Thank you for sharing complex, helpful information in such a clear and succint manner. It explains a lot of where we are going wrong, and how we can proceed wisely. And as far as the legitimate point that #46 raised, Daas Torah is the result of examining all angles of a situation and all their possible halachic solutions and outcomes. To achieve true Daas Torah, one would need to utilize the first four criteria mentioned in #43, even if it was just with one's self.

The Talmud is a book of arguments and discussions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but R. Yose's psak that poultry could be eaten with milk was not censored, but challenged.


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50. Daas Torah - Just what the doctor ordered     3/2/09 - 7:23 AM
Benzion Twerski

I have repeated this message in many places, both in writing on this site in several threads, and in front of microphones at several places. The mishna in Pirkei Avos tells us, Ben Bag Bag says, Hafoch boh vahafoch bo dekula boh – pour through it again and again for all is contained in it (my translation). We are tragically unable to derive from the Torah the massive wisdom of medicine and the other sciences. Perhaps in compensation for our handicap in this area, HKB”H granted us the advancements of the sciences to be better able to manage in His world. Regardless of the precise explanation, in our lack of the base of knowledge, we are forced to utilize doctors to inform us about medical conditions. Any baal eitzah who is confronted with a question that involves medical issues, is wise (and perhaps foolish if he does not do so) to inquire about what physicians have to say about the situation. I have all the emunas tzaddikim that is possible, but that does guarantee that the daas Torah that I approach will be able to plug into some form of Ruach Hakodesh to respond. Since I need a definite answer, I must present as much information as is available, and the baal eitzah needs to be clear about what tevah has to say.

Many great tzaddikim, of chassidishe, litvishe, and sefardic persuasions typically inquire about what doctors say when responding to questions about medical issues. Often, they make referrals of directly contact doctors themselves before responding. I am all for daas Torah, but let us not mistake someone’s Torah knowledge for a universal qualification as an expert in worldly affairs. And that itself is daas Torah (just paraphrasing from others, not my own pronouncement).


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51. 50 Just what the doctor ordered...     3/2/09 - 11:00 AM
Anonymous

"we are forced to utilize doctors to inform us about medical conditions."

I am not sure I understand this statement. That we are "forced to utilize doctors" makes it sound like a bedi eved situation that belittles the role and chashivus of the physician.

With a Torah mindset, an aspiring doctor recognizes that the subject of his studies is nothing less than Hashem's pinnacle of creation in all its chochmah and intricacies. "Histakel beoraisa ubarah olmah" indicates that the natural world,if viewed through a spiritual lens, is nothing less than an extension of Torah, the blueprint of creation.

In practicing medicine, the truly frum doctor recognizes his role as a shaliach of the Ultimate Rofeh, and views his tafkid as the service of Hashem. The spiritually attuned patient shares this view of the doctor (even a non-frum one) and, furthermore,understands that caring for one's health is a form of avodas haBoreh and a fulfillment of the mitzva venishmartem meod es nafshosechem. When every prescription and treatment is administered and recieved from this perspective, I can only view the entire process as the living Torah rather than a compromise situation outside the realm of Torah.


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52. Thank you #51     3/2/09 - 11:40 AM
Benzion Twerski

Anonymous #51:

I apologize if my statement sounded defensive. Not at all. It was, however, a retort to those who insist that all knowledge comes from the Torah, and that therefore Daas Torah can serve as independent expertise. My remark is that this is the ideal, but that we have not been able or zocheh to achieve that in a long time.

I had the zchus of being acquainted with a physician who had developed many chiddushim in his areas of specialty, both with surgical techniques as well as evaluative strategies. During a portion of my training, he arranged for me to accompany him in the operating room. He had been a baal teshuvah for many years, and he was a regular attendee of many shiurim. His statement about surgery was impressive. “The human body is Hashem’s masterpiece, and should not be tampered with any more than a precious piece of art. We are recipient’s of Hashem’s gift of scientific advances to enable us to fix some of the things that can go wrong. But to intervene in any way that suggests that our work could improve on His product is blasphemy.” (Not an exact quote, despite the punctuation.) My hope is that every health professional realizes that he/she is only a shaliach of Hashem to bring about healing.


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53. Dr. Twerski     3/2/09 - 12:04 PM
Anonymous

No, thank you! #47/51


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54. The 5th Commandment     3/3/09 - 4:56 AM
anom

"There’s a joke going around that they want to lift the ban of Rabbeinu Gershom against having more than one wife, because the financial situation being what it is, you need two fathers-in-law to provide support… "

My neighbor who has 9 kids of his own is supporting the learning of 3 of his married sons and their families. His sons have no interest in work and have no training in finding future employment. My neighbor is looking older by the day and is not looking good. When his third son got married, I said to my wife "There goes another nail in the coffin." How learning by so self-centered a group can be valued is beyond me. It goes against everything I ever learned, including the 5th commandment.


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55. Why?     3/3/09 - 6:51 AM
Anonymous

Why would someone tax themselves beyond the limit to support a child to sit in kollel? I can understand if a child is extremely worthy of remaining in kollel – that becomes a need of the tzibbur. I can also understand if the parents have the means – that is their option to spend their own money that way. But to wreck themselves? I hope there is a good answer for this.


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56. Why?     3/3/09 - 7:06 AM
Anonymous

For the same reason pple make simchas in a fashion they cannot afford, dress in clothes whose cost lies well beyond their means, mortgage their homes to send daughters to seminary whose tuition well exceeds their budget, borrow money to fund the cost of sleep-away camp, etc, etc, etc.

The herd instinct is among he most powerful drives. Several weeks ago, Rabbi Twerski posted a comment explaining the increased risk of conformity which results from many pple living in close quarters, each highly aware of what the neighbors are doing. It is indeed a challenge to tilt against the world and do the right thing.


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57. High school biology     3/3/09 - 2:11 PM
anom

I learned in high school biology that animal and plant species would devote an inordinate amount of resources to ensure the survival of their young. It seems to me that an inordinate amount of resources is allocated to ensure a bochur will be in the Beth Medrash until perpetuity. To me it appears that the welfare of the young is being mortgaged to satisfy the Kavod of the older.


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58. To #28     3/3/09 - 11:46 PM
Anonymous

Why must you wait? Why not show us all someone you believe has prinicples is not a hypocrite and is someone for the OTD crowd to look up to? Your derision for those who choose other paths shows tremendous insecurity and the need to feel holier than thou. Nebach. Get a life, dude.


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59.     3/4/09 - 9:35 AM
Anonymous

No, #28 is correct. His point is that to leave religious observance because of other people's behavior is an excuse and he's right. If the decision to abandon a religious life is made with sincerity, it won't be predicated on certain people's behavior but on the truth of Torah. We have a principle of "yogaata u'matzasa taamin" - if a person truly seeks to find role models, people worthy of emulation, he will find them. They are all around us, many of them are not famous people; just good, plain Jews who seek to do G-d's will.


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60. Driving in the snow     3/4/09 - 12:55 PM
Miriaminmidwood

Against my wishes, my daughter drove to work the day after we had a buge snowstorm. Although I was upset and nervous, I soon realized that she was expressing her independence. Anyone who has been around kids, knows that they friecely fight for independence. Even infants; would a parent be happy if their toddler wanted to stay in his crib all day? Now take many men in kollel. Dependence seems to be prevalent. Some men have any combination of these masters; the kollel, their in-laws, the government, charities, and their wives (who are probably working). Is their any wonder some kids are rebelling? Maybe they're afraid of being in a "crib" all day.


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61. #59, #28     3/4/09 - 3:44 PM
Eliezer - Toronto

I think the point that's being missed here is that, in today's day, most of the people who are leaving Yiddishkeit don't do so for intellectual reasons - they leave because they're in pain. Often, they've been rejected by our Chinuch system and/or abused in one way or another. Sometimes the way they express it is by saying that they can't stand the hypocrisy of the frum community, but often what they really mean is that they feel terribly alone.

To say that such a person is "making an excuse" to leave Yiddishkeit is insensitive and inaccurate in the extreme. If you read what's been written by people such as Rabbi Horowitz and others who deal with those who leave Yiddishkeit, it gives you a window into the unbearable suffering that many of these Yidden have gone through.

Just as we are used to saying that we can't judge someone who went through the Holocaust, r"l, many of these people have gone through their own personal Holocaust, which an outsider wouldn't know about.


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62.     3/5/09 - 12:47 PM
Anonymous

Sometimes the way they express it is by saying that they can't stand the hypocrisy of the frum community, but often what they really mean is that they feel terribly alone.

So the way they express it is a lie and yes, that is an excuse. If a child says honestly that they are miserable because of how they were treated and in this miserable state they are rejecting Yiddishkeit, it's a big rachmanus and we should respond accordingly.

How to deal directly with those who suffer is different than a discussion on a website. To a person who suffers, one is compassionate. On a website, we should be able to say the truth.


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63. #62     3/6/09 - 12:18 PM
Eliezer - Toronto

Judging from the comments in #62, it seems that I didn't explain myself fully. Let me try expressing this with a moshol.

Imagine a room full of people smoking and having a good time. In that room also happens to be someone who has asthma. Now, if the person with asthma were to say that he can't breathe because people are smoking and he needs to leave the room, would that be a lie? The fact is that, due to his situation, he finds it intolerable to be around smoke, even though other people in the room may be having a great time.

Coming back to the nimshol, a person suffering from the loneliness of rejection or abuse has a heightened need to feel accepted and cared about by those around him. If he is surrounded by a community with rampant hypocrisy, he is like the asthmatic in a room full of smokers. The hypocritical behavior around him severely aggravates his loneliness, because he sees so many people who only care about themselves and don't seem to care about people around them.

I hope this makes the connection more clear and helps us see how important it is for our community to focus more on our core values and less on externals.


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64. anom     3/6/09 - 1:52 PM
Anonymous

#63-good analogy. This thought occurred to me today. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to leave your job, your family and friends, your home country, your language, and your culture and move to a foreign country. Perhaps some of those who we call "OTD" are exhibiting the same traits as emigrants to a foreign country. It takes a tremendous amount of courage leave the comforts of a frum life and live the way one chooses to. It's all too easy to label OTD's as being degenerates, perhaps some are quite remarkable people.


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65. We're all hypocrites?     3/8/09 - 11:54 AM
Anonymous

If he is surrounded by a community with rampant hypocrisy

So you are comparing a room full of smokers to a community with rampant hypocrisy - this (as yet unnamed) community has no sincere people, they're all frauds.

So the nimshal seems to be all frum people, since kids are leaving Yiddishkeit from all backgrounds, MO, Chassidish, Yeshivish and JPF (just plain frum). Maybe we should just give up then. Frum people are obviously all failures.


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66. We're all doing teshuvah     3/8/09 - 12:38 PM
Benzion Twerski

Each of us would prefer to believe that we are right on while the rest of the world is nuts (hypocritical). The reality is that we should all be in the mode of teshuvah all the time, as the Chazal stated, “Do teshuvah the day before death, since no one knows when they will die, and then one’s entire life is spent in teshuvah.” It is wonderful to be aware that what we (each of us) is doing is less than optimal so that we can each apply ourselves to self improvement.

While there are many comments here that point to the klal as suffering from confused priorities, I would hope the intention is not the blaming and finger pointing, but the analysis that one has himself contributed to that. This promotes the teshuvah that we need to govern our lives.


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67.     3/9/09 - 11:10 AM
Anonymous

nuts=hypocritical?

I don't think so.


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68. Letter from the Rebbe     3/11/09 - 3:41 PM
Anonymous

This is a letter from the Lubavitcher Rebbe to a frustrated Jew who had left the Torah path and wrote him explaining why.

B”H 15 Iyar, 5738 Brooklyn, NY

Sholom u'Brocho:

I am in receipt of your letter of May 13, in which you write about your present state and feelings toward Jews, Yiddishkeit, the Torah, etc., which you blame on the attitude towards you on the part of the Yeshiva and its students.

Needless to say the connection is most surprising, for it is plain and obvious that a Jew, whoever he may be, who believes in the Torah and does his best to observe its mitzvoth, does it because of his personal commitment to G-d’s Torah and mitzvoth, which were given to each and every Jew at Sinai, and as our Sages tell us that the souls of all Jews of all generations were present there and accepted the Torah and mitzvoth. Hence, if a Jew should declare, G-d forbid, that he does not accept the Ten Commandments because his friends or teacher do not conduct themselves as they should – I do not think that anyone will say that this is a proper or sensible approach.

To put it a different way: If a teacher whom you respect will say that two times two is five, it is incorrect; and if a teacher whom you do not respect will say that two times two is four, it is nevertheless correct, for Torah is independent. Judging by your writing, there is surely no need to elaborate to you on what is self-evident.

As for you, your complaint about your friends’ attitude toward you – it is also clear that neither I nor anyone else can make a judgment on this without first hearing what both sides have to say.

Now, let us assume – from your point of view – that you have reasons to complain – surely you know, and must have seen it yourself from other situations where people have a disagreement, that in every dispute between two people it is impossible that one should be 100% right and the other 100% wrong. It would be rare indeed, if it ever happened, although one does not have to be 100% right to win his case, and 99% against 1% is also sufficient. But when one of the parties, who is personally involved and subsequently subjective, claims to be 100% right and all the other 100% wrong, this is most extraordinary. Don’t you think that someone who examines the whole situation objectively may find you also wrong, at least to the extent to 1%? If this be very likely, how is it that you don’t mention anything about it in your letter, not even by as much as a hint?

All that has been said above is by way of response to your writing, dealing with the “letter” as distinct from the “spirit.”

The crucial point, however, is that suffice it to consider the fact that Yiddishkeit, Torah and mitzvoth, and the Jewish people have survived 3500 years of persecution, pogroms, the Holocaust, etc., and yet our people are alive and thriving to this day, while many powerful nations and “civilizations” have disappeared without a remnant – to be convinced (despite your assertions in the beginning of your letter) that the Torah is Toras Emes, and its mitzvoth are Emes, and that “they are our life and the length of our days,” both for our Jewish people as a whole and for every Jew individually. It is also self-understood that G-d desires Jews to observe his mitzvoth not for His benefit, but for the benefit of the one who lives in accordance with G-d’s Will.

In light of the above, I hope and trust that you will do all that is in your power to learn the Torah with devotion and diligence and to fulfill the mitzvoth with hiddur – not because I, or anyone else, tells you to do this, but because it is the Truth itself, as has been amply verified by the uninterrupted history of our people from generation to generation. And although this is an obvious “must” for its own sake, this is also the channel to receive G-d’s blessing for hatzlocho in all your needs, as well as for your parents and all your dear ones.

With blessing,

M. Schneerson

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If you believe in the governing principles of this website – to help effect positive change through the candid discussions of the real issues we collectively face, please consider becoming a daily, weekly or monthly sponsor of this website and help defray the costs of it’s maintenance.



Working with Families and Educators on Behalf of our Children

This site is managed by The Center for Jewish Family Life, Inc., 56 Briarcliff Drive, Monsey, NY 10952
Project Y.E.S. was founded by Agudath Israel of America
Project Y.E.S. 161 Kings Highway, Brooklyn, NY 11223 - 718-256-5360, fax: 718-256-5364 projectyes@pyes.org


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