Please enable JavaScript in your browser to experience all the custom features of our site.

RabbiHorowitz.com

Mr. Harry Skydell, Chairman
Mr. Mark Karasick, Vice Chairman
Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, Director
Rabbi Avrohom M. Gluck, Director of Operations
The first 1000 members will have a chance to win a
16 GB
iPod
touch
with Rabbi Horowitz audio

Membership Benefits:

  • Save articles to your favorites folder.
  • Save and print selected articles in a PDF journal.
  • Receive emails containing the latest comments on your favorite articles.
  • Mark articles as "READ".
  • More member features coming soon...

Raffle Rules:

NO PURCHASE NECESSARY. To enter, complete the signup form and join as a member. Incomplete entries will be disqualified. All entries shall become the property of CJFL. CJFL is not responsible for lost, misdirected or delayed entries.

The contest is open to the general public. Members need to be at least 18 years old. Identification must be produced on request. Employees of CJFL, its raffle sponsor, advertising and promotional agencies and their respective affiliates and associates and such employees' immediate family members and persons with whom such employees are domiciled are excluded from this raffle. ALL PREVIOUSLY REGISTERED MEMBERS WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY ENTERED INTO THIS RAFFLE. The prize is not redeemable in cash and must be accepted as awarded. Decisions of the raffle judges are final - no substitutions will be available. By claiming the prize, the winner authorizes the use, without additional compensation of his or her name and/or likeness (first initial and last name) and municipality of residence for promotion and/or advertising purposes in any manner and in any medium (including without limitation, radio broadcasts, newspapers and other publications and in television or film releases, slides, videotape, distribution over the internet and picture date storage) which CJFL may deem appropriate. In accepting the prize, the winner, acknowledges that CJFL may not be held liable for any loss, damages or injury associated with accepting or using this prize. CJFL retains the rights, in its absolute and sole discretion, to make substitutions of equivalent kind or approximate value in the event of the unavailability of any prize or component of the prize for any reason whatsoever. This contest is subject to all federal, provincial and municipal laws. CJFL reserves the right to withdraw or terminate this raffle at any time without prior notice. One entry per person.


They Do Not Represent Us
Protecting Our Women and Restoring Our Honor
by Rabbi Yakov Horowitz
This article orignally appeared in The Jerusalem Post

  Rated by 167 users   |   Viewed 110875 times since 3/17/09   |   233 Comments
Decrease Font Size Increase Font Size    [ Change Font Size ] Email This Article to a Friend
   

3/17/09

Dear Readers:

Once a year, I ask my readers to kindly consider participating in our annual dinner by making a donation, large or small, to support Yeshiva Darchei Noam, which I founded twelve years ago, and where I serve as Dean.

Due to the current economic downward spiral, many of our parents who previously paid their tuition in full, and who also contributed generously to the capital campaign for our new building, are now finding themselves in financial difficulty. They have applied for scholarships where they never needed to before. That is why your gift to Yeshiva Darchei Noam means even more to us at this time. Please consider assisting Darchei Noam’s innovative chinuch by making a donation and/or placing an ad in honor of our Twelfth Annual Dinner celebrating the dedication of our new building, which took place on Sunday evening, March 22nd in Ateres Charna, 790 North Main Street, Spring Valley, NY. Aside from tuition, the Dinner Campaign is the largest source of funds for our Yeshiva.

For your convenience, you can make a donation to Yeshiva Darchei Noam by clicking here, or sending an email to: dinner@darcheinoam.org

Respectfully,

Yakov

They Do Not Represent Us

Protecting our Women and Restoring Our Honor

On Sunday, Elhanan Buzaglo was sentenced to four years imprisonment for the vicious beating of a woman, nine months ago in Jerusalem's Ma'alot Dafna neighborhood. Buzaglo, a member of a charedi mishmar hazniyut, a self-appointed chastity squad, pled guilty as part of a plea bargain struck with the State Prosecutor's Office.

Buzaglo, who broke into the 31-year-old divorcé’s apartment along with four other men, was convicted of receiving $2,000 from the mishmar hazniyut for his role in the attack, which was intended to intimidate her into leaving the predominantly charedi neighborhood. Judge Noam Solberg wrote in his decision that "the punishment must reflect the abhorrence of his acts … and deter him and others like him."

Even though the Jerusalem District Court described the assailants as an "armed militia," Buzaglo, 29, was the only defendant to be convicted in this barbaric attack. According to newspaper reports last October, a series of flaws in the investigation, including a problem with the recording device, enabled Buzaglo's dispatchers – the modesty patrol members – to evade indictments.

From my vantage point, it is unfortunate that all those who participated in the vicious beating of a defenseless woman are not facing long prison sentences. But it is a great step forward and hopefully will mark a turning point in the attitude of law enforcement officials to these thugs.

As an educator and a proud member of the charedi community, I appeal to all charedi Knesset members to display moxie and genuine leadership by calling a joint press conference where they repudiate all forms of violence and vow to bring to justice all those who perpetrate these types of attacks from this day forward. They should bring all law enforcement resources to bear, in order to bring law and order to the streets of Jerusalem, Beit Shemesh, Bnei Brak and other areas where these people operate. If our elected officials cannot commit themselves to protecting innocent women from vicious beatings, they should all resign and be replaced by people who will.

There is no question in my mind that the vast, overwhelming majority of charedi Jews worldwide feel as I do; disgraced and shamed when these events occur, and frustrated that there seems to be little that we can do to remove this stain from our shirts. Many members of our community are reluctant to speak out publicly, fearing that doing so will cause a chillul Hashem, a desecration of G-d’s name. However, I propose that remaining silent in the face of violent and lawless acts perpetrated by individuals purporting to represent Torah values is the greatest chillul Hashem of all.

The time has come for us to speak out, telling our children and students in unequivocal terms, “These people are criminals and sinners – and do not represent us!” Our publications should begin reporting these incidents in the news sections of our papers, condemn them in our editorials, and call upon the police to arrest and prosecute the perpetrators to the fullest extent of the law.

We should stop using politically correct terms like “misguided youths” to describe cowards who beat women for sitting in the “wrong” sections of buses and physically assault peaceful citizens who do not dress according to their standards – observant or otherwise. “Misguided youth” implies that they engaged in a prank, like a water fight, or that they went overboard in pursuit on a noble goal. There is nothing noble about these acts – or the terrorist mentality that glorifies them.

The violent members of these self-appointed modesty patrols are, in fact, a modern-day version of the Sadducee sect (Tzedokim) – having long ago veered off the path of our Torah and formed their own cult. They kneel to the idol of intolerance and bring the blood and bruised bodies of their victims on the altar of hatred. They only lack the intellectual honestly to declare themselves a new, non-religious movement divorced of any rabbinic teaching and tradition.

But violence corrupts not only the souls of the perpetrators, but also those of the silent majority of decent people who sit by silently and allow it to take place. And in this era of the 24-hour news cycle and worldwide digital communication, like it or not, admit it or not, these thugs have replaced our venerable sages as ambassadors of our charedi community to the world at large (a Google search of the words charedi and violence generates 26,200 hits) To our great shame, we have allowed these evil people to represent us before the world media instead of our noble sages from whom we receive inspiration and guidance. The Chafetz Chaim and Rabbi Aryeh Levine of blessed memory have been replaced by Yasir Arafat and Hassan Nasrallah. Burning garbage cans and hurled stones have supplanted Torah learning and acts of kindness.

We must clearly and unequivocally condemn the violence each time it happens in the strongest language. Halachic (Judaic law) rulings ought to be issued, that those who commit violence against innocent people are rodfim (individuals who present a real and present danger to others) and one is obligated by our Torah to defend the victim and report the criminals to the police.

I am posting this column on my website (www.rabbihorowitz.com ) and I respectfully call upon charedim worldwide to post a comment at the bottom of the column with your name and email address and the city where you live supporting the sentiments expressed here.

If enough Torah-observant individuals stand up, distance ourselves from these criminals, and demand action from our elected officials, we might affect changes which will restore honor to G-d’s name and end these acts of terror that plague us.

Recommended reading:

My Grandfather and I – lessons on living in a secular world

The Pierced Teen and I – my moving midnight encounter with a secular teen in the lobby of a Jerusalem hotel

A Response to The Pierced Teen and I – a response in defense of the Israeli charedi community by a resident of Kiryat Sefer, and my reply

Enough is Enough – Miriam Shear’s article about the beating she received on the #2 bus to the Kotel

Response to the Boro Park Riot – an essay I wrote condemning the violence, which was subsequently published in several charedi publications

Before the Next Time – where I asked some hard (still unanswered) questions, as to why these events are occurring far too frequently in our community.

Almost certainly due to the financial stress so many families are under these days, our Project YES phone lines are getting twice as many calls from parents, asking for mentors for their children, than last year. We are now more than 70 volunteers 'short' -- meaning that 70 kids are waiting for someone to spend an hour a week with. Our mentoring program is really something special -- you will have professional training, you get a great deal of TLC and hand holding from our YES staff, and it is incredibly rewarding. Please watch the video on our website, or click here to learn about it. To volunteer to become a mentor: Call (718)758-3131 or email: rabbihorowitz@rabbihorowitz.com



To sign up for Rabbi Horowitz’s weekly emails, please click here.


Reader's Comments:      Rating & Comments Policy      Rate & Write a Comment!
 Average Rating:              Rated by 167 users    (233 comments)
Subscribe to this Article
(by subscribing you will receive email notification
when new comments are posted)

Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


1. Posting comments on this thread     3/17/09 - 12:30 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey NY - rabbihorowitz@rabbihorowitz.com

Dear Readers: I would like to express my deep gratitude to those who contributed to the Darchei Noam Dinner -- all the more so, in these trying times. May Hashem bless you as only He can with all the brachos reserved for supporters of Torah. Please take a moment and post your name if you support the thoughts expressed in this essay(Your real name, please. I posted mine, after all) the city where you live, and your email address. It is my hope that there will be a significant response -- enough to make the Kiddush Hashem that is so long overdue. As the host of this site, I respectfully ask you not to use this forum and thread to write things that are disrespectful to our gedolim shlita. Feel free to disagree with my writing in your comments, but please be restrained in your comments as far as our rabbonim and gedolim are concerned.

Thank you Yakov


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


2. This is one of the reasons I took the keppa off     3/17/09 - 1:34 PM
Scott

I was no longer able to associate with a group that committes hillul hashems and dresses like pious Jews and never condons anything. I had enough of this nonsense. HYPOCRISY ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!The education system is also completely archaic and doesnt work and just leads people to not even want to be Jewish.

I found the secular world with Jewish values (Kosher, shabbat, etc) much better.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


3. Yishar Koach     3/17/09 - 1:41 PM
Malki Hockman - Yerushalyim


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


4. Weighing in     3/17/09 - 1:48 PM
Benzion Twerski

I will join in the condemnation of those who profess to pursue worthy causes, but choose to accomplish this by violating the very Torah whose honor they claim to avenge. The concept is not new, and such individuals and groups have existed for generations.

While I do not want to sidetrack this comment into launching a discussion about a different subject, I wish only to draw a simple parallel. There are major efforts on the part of professionals, Rabbonim, yeshivos, and numerous agencies to create a system to handle child abuse complaints. The challenge in completing this is that the system that is being developed by halacha abiding Jews must comply with requirements of the Shulchan Aruch. Just because the molester is a monster (I’m being mild here), doesn’t give anyone the green light to jump up with guns blaring and create havoc. There are rules, and the passion to address the problem cannot become the license to break the halachos we claim to follow. That is why I support activism, but clam up when the action steps are taken. I need the guidance of Daas Torah, and my own sense of calm before getting into action.

The event that prompted this article is a horrible, shameful stain on the Torah observant world. I am willing to remain clueless about the “crimes” of the victim of the assault. Her behavior, however despicable it might have been, cannot, and will not ever justify the animalistic and barbaric reactions. These individuals do not represent me, and I feel that they are not speaking or representing true Torah Yiddishkeit. There are precious few instances, in which strong actions are taken against a violator, and these involve a beis din, sometimes a gadol, but never, never a vigilante group that takes “law” into its own hands.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


5. Syag LaChachmah Shesikah     3/17/09 - 1:50 PM
Very Concerned

As the stated purpose of this Web site is to provide helpful, Torah-oriented parenting advice, I believe columns like this one are "out of bounds" and, therefore, inappropriate. Whether we agree with Rabbi Horowitz or not, his frequent comments on controversial issues unrelated to parenting generate heated responses which occasionally involve Lashon HaRa (forbidden speech) and Hotzaas Sheim Ra (malicious libel). As this Web site is not moderated (i.e., comments are not reviewed and edited before -- or even immediately after -- posting), it is unfair for Rabbi Horowitz to expose those seeking his parenting advice to public, Halachically-prohibited filth!

Respectfully


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


6. THANK YOU     3/17/09 - 2:03 PM
YECHIEL PINSKY - MILWAUKEE WI - YPIN@SBCGLOBAL.NET

THANK YOU FOR EDUCATING PARENTS ABOUT TORAH TRUE RIGHT AND WRONG.IN OUR CONFUSED SOCIETY,CLEAR MESSAGES ABOUT WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE AND WHAT IS ABHORRENT MUST BE COMMUNICATED


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


7. Fully with you     3/17/09 - 2:04 PM
Shaul Behr - Beit Shemesh, Israel - sbehr@sabreton.com

... and against the approach of people like "Syag LaChachmah Shesikah", who effectively proposes that the best way to deal with this stuff is to sweep it under the carpet. Not surprisingly, he uses a pseudonym instead of wearing his opinions openly.

Go, Rabbi Horowitz - please keep up your fight! We are with you!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


8. Kol Hakavod     3/17/09 - 2:09 PM
Anonymous

I'm happy to hear that someone is finally standing up to his craziness. What happened to educating through positive acts of kindness. How is the Ribo Shel Olam viewing these cruel acts??


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


9. I beg to differ #5     3/17/09 - 2:13 PM
CB

This has everything to do with parenting. This is the world we live in, in which vigilantes dressed as frum Jews commit abominable acts in the name of Torah, which is very confusing for our children. We must address this issue with our children and straighten it out for them or risk raising a generation that believes this is what you do in the name of Torah, lo aleinu.

Not only is this confusing for our children, but apparently for some adults as well. My niece attends a very mainstream yeshivish seminary in Israel. In the beginning of the school year there were a few bleach incidents in Geulah/Meah Shearim and the principal of the school (a highly respected mechaneches of long standing) shared her views with the girls that any woman who has nerve enough to enter the neighborhood not dressed according to their exacting standard of tznius deserves what she gets, whether that's bleach poured on her clothes or her sheitel snipped off or whatever the mishmeres hatznius deems fit.

This is not Torah, it is anti-Torah. Discuss this with your children and be aware of what your children are being taught in school. It has everything to do with parenting.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


10. Yasher Koach, Rabbi Horowitz     3/17/09 - 2:23 PM
Michael Feldstein - Stamford, CT - mike38ct@aol.com

Thank you for your courageous article calling on others to condemn the violence by the modesty patrol. In an age where a culture of fear has enveloped the Orthodox world, and many people are afraid to speak out on many issues, you are a breath of fresh air and common sense.

Wishing you hatzlacha in all of your endeavors.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


11. Kol Hacavod     3/17/09 - 2:25 PM
Shlomo and Zippy Stern - Bne Brak

Thank you for writing this important article.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


12. Thank you!     3/17/09 - 2:36 PM
Bracha Goetz - Baltimore, Maryland - bgoetzster@gmail.com

We support your courageous words and your important work. Thank you for being a much-needed leader.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


13. Thanks for an outstanding article     3/17/09 - 2:41 PM
Gershon Gold - Lakewood, NJ - gershon.g@gmail.com

Rabbi Horowitz,

Thanks for speaking up on this most important issue. My grandmother used to say "You can accomplish more with honey, than with vinegar." No one has a right to hit or hurt anyone. And those that do such acts of violence do not deserve mercy. Hopefully the lesson will be learned from this incident and there will be no further need to elaborate on this.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


14. different view     3/17/09 - 2:41 PM
yosef - brooklyn - josephny58@aim.com

Dear Rabbi Horowitz.. My son was living next door to one of those women who vaad hatznios wanted out of meah sheurim..it didnt take more then 6 months that my daughter in law befriended with this women and she changed her dress code due to her friendship..i do not believe beating is the way to go but for sure they need a way to rid them from heimishe neighborhood..Please respond if you do not garee and why..


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


15. touche     3/17/09 - 2:44 PM
Anonymous - maale amos Israel

what makes these people think they are doing something holy. Is our system so corrupt that it produces criminals, like all the other nations?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


16. Against the Shulchan Oruch     3/17/09 - 2:52 PM
Rabbi Pinchos Woolstone - Brooklyn New York - pwoolstone@gmail.com

Thank G-d we live in civil societies were democracy and individual liberty is upheld by the laws of the land. As a consequence people conduct themselves in different ways in dress, speech and action.As Orthodox Jews we are guided by the Shulchan Oruch and our Sages; other may conduct themselves according to their own way of thinking; we may (and do) disagree with them on fundamental issue but this does not give us the right to treat them without the dignity they deserve as a fellow Jew and human being. Violence is an anathema do the Jewish way of being, those thugs who beat women over issues of tznius are a cancer on the body of the Jewish people and must be dealt with in the strongest possible manner by the courts. We have every right to bring breaches of the Shulchan Oruch into the public domain, but never by raising our hands to women.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


17. yasher koach     3/17/09 - 2:56 PM
david rosenthal - minnesota


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


18. Kol HaKavod to Rav Horowitz for Speaking Out in the Right Way     3/17/09 - 2:59 PM
Catriel Lev - Bet Shemesh, ISRAEL

Rav Horowitz has once again spoken out courageously in the manner that all of our Rabbis and community leaders should.

In my opinion Rav Horowitz is a shining example of how leaders must speak out and lead the religious public away from behavior that promotes Chillul HaShem and toward behavior that promotes Ahavas HaShem and Ahavas Yisrael. I think that Rav Horowitz deserves the respect and admiration of the Torah-observant public for his important statements and actions that help make us all proud to be Torah-observant Jews!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


19. Excellent Article     3/17/09 - 3:10 PM
Boruch Leff - Baltimore, MD - sbleff@gmail.com

Let's All Cry Out Against These Extremists Together.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


20. About time     3/17/09 - 3:13 PM
JN - Detroit/ MI

I'm glad to see a strong position being taken by someone in a leadership role in the Chareidi world on the severe miscarriage of justice which is taking place all too often in our communities. I personally know a woman who was beaten on a NON-Mehadrin bus in Israel for sitting in the front. The lack of outcry from the Chareidi world has been shameful- worse than shameful. Abbhorent. This is the reason I read the Jewish Press for my Jewish news and no Chareidi newspapers. Pretending a problem doesn't exist or blaming it on the victim is not acceptable. The extreme isolation of the Chareidi community leads to this kind of radicalization and demonization of the "other," and it needs to stop. As Jews, we have nothing to fear from the outer world. Lets start showing our children that respecting others' humanity is a number one priority.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


21. Its about time!     3/17/09 - 3:15 PM
Asher Lipner - Brooklyn, NY - lipnera@gmail.com

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for once again saying what needs to be said. I cannot say that I am a "charedi", because I'm not sure what that means. I am a "Poshutte Yid". Unfortunately the tolerance towards this behavior in the charedi world (present company exluded) is why it will be so hard to change "frum" society. But voices like Rabbi Horowitz's will eventually be heard and respected by all.

In the meantime, in response to Dr. Twerski, I think it is important to draw a distinction between the overreaction of using violence against an innocent woman in a non-halachicly validated situation, and the strong calls for confrontation with child abusers who are harming innocent children.

To make my point more clearly, if I had witnessed this boy attacking the woman and I needed to use physical force to stop him, if I would have waited to call my rov to ask a shayla of halacha, I believe I would have been acting like a "Chassid Shoyteh" since it was obvious that her life and well being were in danger and the assailant was a roydef. Similarly to act to stop molesters in any way possible is clearly a mitzvah of stopping a roydef and does not bear any comparison at all to the horrible incident described above.

In reality, all of the voices for confronting abusers, including Rabbi Horowitz'es who laments Avraham Mondrowitz sleeping peacefully each night while his victims continue to suffer, have never advocated for physical violence. And other than urban legends of Shomrim taking molesters up to a rooftop at 3 in the morning and threatening them if they don't stop their action to arrange an "accident", or of groups of "toughs" being dispatched by rabbis in Lakewood to "pack the bags of a molester and throw him out of town" have not been reported in the media, and I myself have never met a witness. Ironically the intimidation and bullying in our community is saved for those who want to speak up for survivors. One such individual, Reb Nochum Rosenberg, DID indeed receive both death threats and physical abuse, as was reported widely in the media.

What I have heard a lot of is the call for the kind of "vigilanteism" that asks victims of abuse to calmly, rationally and peacefully report their abuse to law enforcement agencies whose job it is to stop crime. This has been advocated in halachic rulings as well, such as the psak of Rav Elyashiv that makes it clear that this is what should happen when someone knows that a Jew is molesting children, or even if there is "raglyaim ladavar" reasonalbe suspicion. As far as I know, no reputable Posek halacha has said that there is any problem at all with taking this action to protect the lives of children.

The fact that the cries of survivors of abuse and their supporters have recently reached a fever pitch, sometimes giving the impression that they are "out for blood", is because for some reason the same community that has tolerated the anti-halachic actions of the "tznius patrol" has also tolerated the anti-halachic actions of abuse of children and its cover-up, as well as the anti-halachic actions of breaking the commandment of Lo Saamod Al Dam Reyecha in neglecting to report crimes to the police, which is directly causing more children to be harmed.

To summarize, even violence is somtimes allowed in the Torah such as in cases of self-defense. Baruch Hashem to protect our children from molestation we do not need to use any violence, we simply need to follow the halacha and call the police.

Asher Lipner


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


22. Suggestion for #5     3/17/09 - 3:15 PM
Anonymous

Log off!!!!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


23. Expectations     3/17/09 - 3:19 PM
Benzion Twerski

Our system does not produce criminals. I have bones to pick with chinuch, and my comments on this website have made that obvious, but I shudder to think of our yeshivos and schools as training camps for violent crime. The issue is that some individuals among us choose criminal directions for their lives. Some commit white collar crimes. Others dabble in drug use and dealing. And still others engage in violence. None of this is okay, and nothing here should be construed to be a hechsher on reprehensible behavior.

As for this being an issue that is appropriate here, I feel that parents must be aware of it, and take the stand that shuns and rejects hypocrisy. Of course, I want other displays of rejection for hypocrisy, and that this being straight should be the consistent model for our children. Am I expecting too much?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


24. Speaking out     3/17/09 - 3:19 PM
Jill Butler, MD - Passaic, NJ

Thank you for speaking out on this issue. As a Physician, I attest that the psychological damage done by "intimidation assualts" lasts even longer than the bruises and fractures. My question is "WHO paid the perpetrators and how can we stop the funding at its source?"


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


25. brave words     3/17/09 - 3:30 PM
Yakov Ish Tam

Kol Hakavod to Rabbi Horowitz for bravely standing up and taking a stand on this issue. He rightfully condemns those who are silenced into inaction, saying "remaining silent in the face of violent and lawless acts perpetrated by individuals purporting to represent Torah values is the greatest chillul Hashem of all." And he doesn't mince words when bravely pointing to the chareidi MK's, demanding that they, as representatives and leaders of the chareidi community, take decisive action, and demonstrate real torah leadership.

But aren't there certain other people here who we should also be demanding a proper response from? As far as I know, the chareidi public doesn't look to the chavrei knesset for leadership, but rather to certain other, prominent, and often quoted, individuals. Shouldn’t the problem of remaining silent in the face of this travesty also apply to them? If, as he says, "remaining silent... is the greatest chillul Hashem of all", why haven't we heard from the people who have an even greater responsibility to avoid such chillul hashem than the MK's do?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


26.     3/17/09 - 3:41 PM
Anonymous - Chicago - moshep613@aol.com

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for your efforts to reel in the Jewish nation, and create a united Jewish response to terror. A menace to society has NO MORE PLACE in our society or communities. Those who pursue others, convince others to act criminally, and give material benefit to those who pursue people are rodfim. Institutions should disassociate themselves from rodfim, an alumnus who has strayed from the Derech Hashem, and Derech Hayashar should not be allowed to advertise his affiliation with the institution for personal gain.

We stand behind this rabbinically backed initiative to restore achdus in our community. A rodef must be dealt with according to the laws of the country. There is no room for compromise when other people's lives and freedom are at stake. The time has come to stand up to abuse, and shout out loud, "Jewish blood is not free". Illinois has a well established legal system, and must be utilized to stop evil in its tracks.

The community has suffered long enough under the cloud of a rodef. Let us hope Chicago will soon be a rodef free zone.

May everyone enjoy a season, and a life of Geulah!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


27. Hitting Doesn't change.     3/17/09 - 3:43 PM
Rickismom - Israel

I am posting under a psuedonym, as this concerns a family member. I have a daughter who was not religious for a while. She went dressed in the most atrocious ways. Our neighbors, all of them chushiva people, suffered in silence. (They "complained" to me, but understood that nothing should be done by force.) Today this woman is dressed a bit better, much more religious... and it is NOT from getting any beatings. It was from the willingness of those who knew her to accept her. I definately agree with this article.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


28. Fully agree with R. Horowitz     3/17/09 - 3:46 PM
Bella Tsibushkin - Brooklyn, NY - Bella.Tsibushkin@harmonyservices.org

I fully support Rabbi Horowitz's position.

The behavior of the so-called Vaad HaTznius thugs is contrary to both hashkofa and halocha of Judaism. While they could be pitied for distancing themselves from H-shem and his Torah, without even realizing it themselves, their position must be forcefully refuted and debunked. This is something that must be addressed before it is too late.

Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz for standing up for what's right and expressing the Torah-true view, shared by so many of us!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


29. Thank you for writing about this! Dai!     3/17/09 - 4:27 PM
Benyomin Wolf - Woodmere, NY


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


30. yasher koach     3/17/09 - 4:32 PM
Michal Goldenberg - Baltimore, MD - michalgolde@hotmail.com

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for condemning this outrageous attack from misguided and self-righteous Chareidim. I am observant, B"H, however, I can't ever call myself chareidi after seeing these disgusting acts from supposedly pious Jews. It is a chillul Hashem.

Keep up the fight!!!!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


31. response to #14     3/17/09 - 4:35 PM
Anonymous

"she changed her dress code due to her friendship.."

Sounds like you've been through a painful situation and that's rough. Your daughter-in-law, however, could not possibly have abdicated her value for tznius because of the way the neighbor dressed. In all probability, a flood of longstanding undercurrent emotions were merely brought to the surface by the friendship--a mere catalyst for an explosion whose inevitability was only a matter of time.

Betefillas "vehashivaynu hashem eleycha, venashuva; chadesh yameinu kekedem..."


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


32. "chareidim"     3/17/09 - 4:35 PM
Anonymous

I (a university-age female) once walked through Meah Shearim with a few girls. It was Shabbos and we were walking back to university. My pants were hidden by my long winter coat. We passed some "chareidi" men who were standing on the corner--must have been 1 a.m. They spat at us. It is a moment I will never forget. I was on my way to becoming frum.

There are always people in the frum world who APPEAR frum--but act to the contrary. There are also always a small group ("chareidi" by self-definition) who feel it encumbent upon themselves to force their extreme views and chumros upon others. Rabbi Nachman Bulman (obm) once told me that our Rabbeim have to meet the challenge, have a backbone, and stand up to these people. If not, he said, it would be a reflection of the weakness of the community, and the community gets what it deserves. So thank you--for standing up for us.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


33. Count me in     3/17/09 - 4:41 PM
Eliyahu Katz - Kew Gardens, NY - ekatz@alum.mit.edu

Just writing to express support for Rabbi Horowitz's campaign. These fanatics certainly don't represent me or anyone in our Yeshiva community. Yasher Kochacha


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


34. Kol Hakavod     3/17/09 - 4:42 PM
Chava Weiman - St. Louis, MO


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


35. I support the rejection of such behavior     3/17/09 - 4:49 PM
Rafi Goldmeier - Bet Shemesh, Israel - israeli.jew@gmail.com

It is time, way past time actually, that the majority of the frum world, us, the ones who get a bad name because of these hoodlums, told them we will no longer put up with this type of behavior. We will no longer let them claim to speak for us.

http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


36. Time to stand up to them!!!     3/17/09 - 5:24 PM
ROSIE K. - Brooklyn, NY

Thank You Rabbi Horowitz!!

I live in Williamsburg, which is pretty much the epitome of Charedi lifestyle, and such acts committed by these thugs are despicable to all of us. They should be ashamed for calling themselves CHAREDI, or FRUM, or JEWISH for that matter, because whatever they do is Anti-Charedi, Anti-Frum and Anti-Jewish. Thank You again. Let's all stand up together against these people.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


37. Right on!     3/17/09 - 5:47 PM
Avrohom Rand - Yerushalayim - abish1@hotmail.com


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


38. Thanks - I hope you speak for the VAST majority of us...     3/17/09 - 6:03 PM
Rabbi Shmuel Skaist - Monsey NY - Ravshmuel@mac.com

I'll never forget what an impression it made on me when the Rabbonim of a certain shechunah in Yerushalayim called a Yom Tefillah because the city had voted to put a highway in plain view of the shechunah which would not only mean a constant view of chilul shabbos but also a limit to how far the shechunah could expand in years to come. There must have been close to 10,000 people who showed up to say Tehillim together that afternoon - the large Beis Midrash where this was held was way too small and the crowds overflowed and filled the streets. Together we lifted our voices to daven to haShem, to try to send a message to the government and, perhaps most importantly, to reinforce our achdus on an important issue.

l'Fi aniyas daati the next time someone gets beaten by vigilantes who are being mechalel Shem shamayim b'Farhesya (which is yaharog v'Al yaavor - and because of the dangerous anti-charedi bias it produces the perpretrators may have the din of rotzchim btw) shouldn't the yidden of the shechunah gather in a Yom Tefillah for the tzarah that has taken place there? Are these incidents somehow less worthy of this type of community action than a highway being built nearby!? Is it not obvious that these incidents are actualy far more threatening to our commnities than the pathetic actions of some politicians!?

There are protests galore when it comes to outside influences that may or may not affect our community - as there should be - because even if it doesn't accomplish much - at least we'll be b'achdus about it - and at least our children will understand that it is important to stand up to those who would threaten our yiddishkeit.

How is this different!? I fervently hope that I am wrong. That there WERE massive protests and yemei tefillah after these events in the shechunas affected. Please, someone, write in and tell me how uninformed I am!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


39. This is an important column, Rabbi Horowitz     3/17/09 - 6:28 PM
Anonymous - dcresident@hotmail.com

As a non-Heredi, I commend this article for an important reason. The non-Haredi community of the United States too often views the Haredi community as itself a deviant community, lacking normal civic values. Incidents like this, and the silence that usually follows from within the Heredi community, supports this point of view. For a respected member of that community to speak out is not only refreshing, but could go a long way to help eliminate this anti-Heredi feeling in the rest of the Jewish world.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


40. Rabbi H, are all the facts clear?     3/17/09 - 6:50 PM
Shpoler Ainekel - shpoler-ainekel@hotmail.com

Rav Horowitz, a friend sent me your article. While I join you in denouncing violence thoroughly and stridently, the following response I sent him outlines my ambiguity regarding the situation: I'm very conflicted by this article. Not that I think such violence may be acceptable (though the article leaves out her "crime" - was she wearing a shaitel instead of a tichel? a tight skirt? flirting? or having an affair?) - it's unacceptable and cowardly, but because I have been following such articles for over 30 years. The pattern is the same: Someone is beaten up (or in one case 23 years ago, murdered), the secular press quotes reliable sources - always unnamed - that it was this mysterious Vaad Hatzenius or Mishmar Hatzeniut. The article hints that the investigation is widening, rabbis and laymen will be implicated and prosecuted, and then... nothing. One perpetrator is punished, the press cries conspiracy, no reliable people are quoted - supposedly because they're all afraid for their safety, and then it quiets down. I've never yet seen a shred of proof that there is a rogue vigilante group operating. (In the murder situation, my read was that it was a mentally ill American Baalat Teshuvah murdering her lover.) I don't argue that some of the, um, misguided youth in those neighborhoods don't do reckless actions like burn bus stop signs, throw stones at people being mechalel Shabbos or dressing immodestly in their neighborhoods - ignoring the sirens, signs, and committees who first respectfully ask the violators to desist or leave. They also violently scuffle with police at community demonstrations, but that has an over 60-year history in which the police have broken many nightsticks beating chareidi demonstrators. (When we next talk, remind me to tell you the stories of my father in 1949, my friends Yona Carlebach in the 1980's and Meir Levine in the 1990's, to illustrate the non-innocence of the police.) While it's clear that the chareidi violence is counter-productive, unwise, over-the-top - even wrong - it's equally clear that those incidents don't exist in a vacuum. I've also been told a couple of Vaad Hatzeniut stories by reliable sources over the years. For example: A single fellow was "hitting on" some of the young wives of Meah Shearim. He was warned twice to desist, but he persisted. So, in the middle of the night, a number of Meah Shearim fellows in kittels took him out to the cemetery. He yelled, begged and cajoled, but his funeral procession continued apace. They lowered him into one of the graves, and began shoveling dirt in, all the while acting as if it were a normal funeral. When he finally got totally unnerved, they told him that if he persisted in attempting to seduce the women, the next time they wouldn't stop. They then pulled him out of the hole. Needless to say, his offensive behavior stopped. Do I approve of that tactic? I have mixed feelings. I like "effective", I dislike "threat of violence." BUT, there was warning, and no gratuitous violence. In these sensationalized stories, there is always actual violence. When, in the past, I asked people in the know whether these stories are true, they told me they had no idea, but found it unlikely. So, having followed a number of these stories, and having gotten the idea that they were fabrications with the intent of showing how primitive Chareidim are, I am at the very least skeptical. (I would faster walk through that chareidi neighborhood at 3am than through the neighborhood in which the reporter resides, as enlightened as his neighbors are.) Rabbi Horowitz, an absolutely stellar fellow, lives in NY and assumes that even if the reporter adds some exaggeration in the story, he wouldn't totally fabricate it. I am less sure than he - until I see evidence other than unnamed sources. (Yes, I'm flying blind here, as I have no foreknowledge of the situation, but my educated guess is: She borrowed money from loan sharks, and couldn't pay. Afraid to send their own goons in to a chareidi neighborhood to beat her up, they offered some local chareidi bums $2G to beat her up for them) The greatest indication that I'm not wrong is that Israeli judges, who universally despise vigilantism, many of whom despise chareidim as well, and would consider their lives complete if they could put a dozen violent chareidim behind bars, don't do so.

26.200 hits for chareidi & violence? Part of me is proud - after all, a cat NOT climbing a tree isn't news, only something unusual, out of character - and this shows that violence is out of character for chareidim. Part of me is nonchalant - there are many non-Orthodox Jews who like to maintain the illusion that the only kindly, caring Orthodox Jew was their grandfather, and want their newspaper of choice to reflect that prejudice. Part of me is sad - sad that Jews scuffling in Monroe, NY or Jerusalem don't know - or don't care - how the story will play in Peoria, and how it will ultimately hurt their cause. Sad that non-Orthodox Jews in Israel who are afraid to send their children to public schools due to endemic gun violence are unaware of the alternatives, because they believe their own propaganda. (P.S. I wonder how many hits Rabbi Horowitz would get for "Jews" and "World Domination", what that would indicate to him, and what he would propose doing about that.)

I'm curious if there is a way to see some police and court documents in this case, so that we have a better idea of what truly happened.

Rav Yaakov, please let me know if there is room for "limud zechus" (judging favorably) here, or are all the incriminating facts clear?

http://shpoler-ainekel.blogspot.com/


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


41. Yashar Koach     3/17/09 - 6:58 PM
Devorah - Monsey, NY

I wish I wasn't afraid to add my full name & email address, but unfortunately, this is the world of fear that we have created for ourselves; that it is risky to speak out against the community in any way. I fully support what you are doing, Rabbi Horowitz. Thank you for all you do, especially for your phone line where parents can call you for advice. I took advantage of it and you helped me a lot.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


42.     3/17/09 - 7:44 PM
denise karasick - ny - gdk310@hotmail.com

Stone throwing, beatings, name-calling---these are not Jewish modes of behavior. It is appalling that people who dress as tho they are frum behave this way. We wait for our Rabbonim to isolate them so that we are not all identified with them.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


43. Thank You     3/17/09 - 7:58 PM
Dina - NY

Thank you Rabbi Horrowitz for always shedding the emes on thede types of situations


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


44. Are we preaching to the choir?     3/17/09 - 8:32 PM
Tzvi Daum

I agree that we need to condemn these acts of violence, but I wonder if those who need to hear this message the most will actually pay attention.

Tzvi


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


45. Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for your courageous article.     3/17/09 - 8:42 PM
T. Fetman - Brooklyn

Your stand on this issue is right on target. What a tremendous chillul hashem it is when we do not stand up for our Torah principles. It is a tremendous bushah v'cherpah and an embarrassment for the rest of us. Those who profess to be 'ultra-orthodox', yet behave so inapproproriately are simply wolves in sheep's clothing. It is up to the rest of the legitimate chareidi world to expose these fakers for what they are. May Hashem continue to give you the kochos needed to be the honest, outspoken and righteous person that you are! Hatzlacha Rabah!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


46. Keep it up! Enough already     3/17/09 - 8:42 PM
Shmuel - Jerusalem

It really hit me when you mentioned the great tzadik Rav Aryeh Levin Zt"l. Do any of us think he'd ever have been involved or sanctioned violence? Of course, times have changed but.....has anyone every become frum or moved closer to Torah because of violence? Has anyone respected Hashem or Torah more because of Jews acting like violent thugs?

Please Hashem, forgive us, for this is our generation. Somehow, someway, it is our generation that has this evil behavior. Please help us Hashem to find the right and wise way to stop all violence.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


47. The right path     3/17/09 - 9:00 PM
Raphael Waldman - Baltimore, MD - rwaldman1@gmail.com

The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) says that we should reach out to our strayed brethren, "drawing them with 'divrei shalom.'"

The way of pleasantness, love, and peace -- that's the path to the Jewish neshamah.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


48.     3/17/09 - 9:17 PM
Mimi - Brooklyn, NY

Thank you for voicing my opinion, too. I am ebmarrassed to admit that I'm afraid to post my full name but I am immensely greatful to you for speaking up and defending what's right!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


49. In full agreement!     3/17/09 - 9:33 PM
S. - Monsey, NY

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for expressing my thoughts and feelings - and certainly those of many more yidden - so eloquently.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


50. A Mobster in Haimishe Clothing is Still a Mobster     3/17/09 - 9:36 PM
Leiby Burnham - Detroit, Michigan

When people say to me "Not all Muslims are radicals, only a few are. Most Muslims are peace loving individuals and the Koran calls for a world of peace," I always respond, "If that is the case why are we not hearing the greatest Imams from all around the world decrying the acts of terrorism carried out in the name of Islam." ...


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


51.     3/17/09 - 9:58 PM
Yisroel

Thank you, once again, Rabbi Horowitz.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


52. Kol Hakavod... let's see someone say this in Israel     3/17/09 - 11:16 PM
Sandy - Bet Shemesh

As someone whose teenage daughter was "egged" and beaten up by haredi hooligans because she dared to enter their neighborhood, I'm very happy to see someone speaking up. Unfortunately, local government and the police fear further violence if they take action against the known perpetrators, so there have been no arrests. The pain felt by the moderate community (hiloni, dati and haredi) is thus left to fester, promoting outright hatred of haredi Jews. So sad... if only more people could show some backbone!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


53. Well said     3/17/09 - 11:56 PM
Gila Weiss - Jerusalem - gila.weiss@gmail.com

I am not Haredi--am not even observant--but I live in Jerusalem. I avoid going to Meah Shearim--too dangerous. I have friends in Beit Shemesh who would like me to visit, but I avoid Beit Shemesh as well. Why take the risk? I am not the only one who feels this way.

You know you have a problem when people relate to your neighborhood as they would a particularly rough part of Harlem. Thank you for speaking up and I wish you success in your efforts.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


54. Yasher Koach     3/18/09 - 12:29 AM
Menachem Lipkin - Beit Shemesh

It was great to see this article in the Jerusalem Post today. It will be truly amazing to see it printed in the Yated and Hamodia (Israeli versions).

Unfortunately, because of your strident sechel in areas like this while they don't represent you, in their puny brains, you, and normal people like you, don't represent them either.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


55. Yasher Kochacha     3/18/09 - 1:01 AM
Yakov Kerzner - Toronto - yakovkerzner@rogers.com


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


56. Yasher koach     3/18/09 - 1:16 AM
Rabbi Heshy Frieman - Yerushalyaim

Finally there s a beginning of a movement to take back our hijacked religion.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


57. Leadership?     3/18/09 - 1:19 AM
UOJ fan - Lakewood, NJ

We are never supposed to bash the Gedolim here, but when innocent women are getting physically bashed, and not ONE single "Gadol" comes to her aid, lends support, condemns the vicious act...it time for the MOETZES to resign. It really is. Or else we have a sham community where are moral compass is being played around with by people who clearly have very "unorthodox" values.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


58. Thank you     3/18/09 - 1:21 AM
Deena Goldfarb - Flushing, NY

When I hear about these stories it reminds me of my gandmother's experiences in Nazi Germany. About the time she was assaulted mercilessly. Do we have an element of Amalek among us? If so, must we tolerate this?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


59. They don't?     3/18/09 - 1:24 AM
Reuvain Fine - Cleveland, OH

Unfortunatley to the world they do represent us. And unfortunatley to those masses of charedim who are quietly acquiescing to this behavior, it is like a few Palestinians saying that Hamas terrorists don't represent them even though they won in an 80@ landlside election. If these thugs did not represent us we would put a stop to them just like to the guy selling treif chickens in Monsey.

Now HE really didn't represent us. But I'm afraid so far, this guy was as good a representative of where we are at as a community as any.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


60. Absolutely right     3/18/09 - 2:02 AM
Leah Goodman - Modiin, Israel

Completely agreed.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


61. Thank you #40     3/18/09 - 2:18 AM
Chaya - EY

A great yasher koach to number 40 for putting this issue into what is, in my opinion, the proper perspective. I remember when there was an incident reported in Beit Shemesh about a woman who was beaten up on a bus because she sat next to a soldier in the front of the bus. The only chareidi columnist with the sense to relate to the act as "reported" as opposed to absolute truth (the report appeared in HaAretz, not exactly a paper known for its objectivity) was Yonason Rosenblum. I have no idea whether the incident actually occurred or not. But HaAretz is definitely not the source to be trusted when it comes to the chareidi public.

Although I do not condone violence, I agree with #40 that many of the reported incidents are either exaggerated, fabricated, or were deliberate attempts at incitement that, unfortunately, achieved their aims. Such things are not uncommon here, whether the issue is tznius or Shabbos observance or grave desecration or any one of a host of issues.

The fact of the matter is that incidents of chareidi violence, even when they do occur, do not occur in a vaccuum as #40 so accurately noted. There seems to be an undercurrent of sentiment on this post and other forums that not only is the violence unexcusable - which it is - it is not even comprehensible, a feeling that "How could someone even be moved to violence in such a situation?" The truth is that many of us feel very passionately about the standards of tznius and the level of insulation of our communities. Do most of us resort to violence? Absolutely not. Are those who do ALL total crazies? Despite the fact that their actions are wrong, no, they are not.

Although I agree that we must decry violence in our communities, it always strikes me as a bit odd that when it does occur, "moderate" (as they define themselves) frum writers - especially those outside of EY - come out swinging, but when the violence or incitement goes the other way, they are much more subdued. It does lead me to conclude that, although - again - violence is (in most cases) unexcusable, those who do not live here within the Israeli chareidi community and do not experience its dynamics from within do not have a clear understanding of all the surrounding issues.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


62. Thank you!     3/18/09 - 2:47 AM
Suzanne Lieberman - Modiin Elite - suzanne@honestreporting.com

We need more like you - people who are from the "FFB" world, with enough sechel to realise that the situation has got to change. It's normally "BTs" who think they can do something to change things - and normally can't.

A couple of days ago a lady came into a local bank wearing pants, a loose top and a jacket - in cold weather noch, so she wasn't even uncovered. Suddenly some "Tzaddik" started screaming at her to not come in with pants on. The poor woman started mumbling about picking up her check book, while the tyrant continued. No-one said a word, until I, unable to contain myself any longer shouted at him (in hebrew) - if you think you are doing a kiddush H', you are sadly mistaken; you are doing a total chillul H'. Still no-one spoke. I'm the one who'll be branded as the meshuggeneh!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


63. Re: "They do not represent us"     3/18/09 - 3:38 AM
Ruth Siegman - Ramat Bet Shemesh B - isaacandruth@013.net.il

Dear Rabbi Horowitz, My husband and I had such wonderful expectations when we came on Aliyah from Teaneck, N.J. and decided to settle in Ramat Bet Shemesh B. At that time this area was pretty much barren land and new construction was just beginning. We were thrilled with the anticipation of our new start in life. It didn't take long for our hopes and dreams to be destroyed when the "stone-throwing crazies" with their "new and improved" brand of Torah moved into the neighborhood and within a very short time "ruled the roost"! We witnessed much of this disgusting behaviour, and we even have a neighbor who was beaten to a pulp and had all of the tires on his car slashed, not to mention the property damage--broken windows, hateful graffiti! My husband and I are senior citizens, and, quite frankly, we don't have the strength or energy to move again. Complaining to the Iriyah and joining others in peaceful demonstrations have proven to be fruitless efforts, particularly now that our newly elected mayor sides with these "kanaim". Several months ago a group of these ultra-crazies who breed hatred and intolerance toward their fellow Jew decided that they wanted to set up a school. So one nice day at around 4 in the morning, under the cover of darkness, 6 huge caravans were set up in an empty lot across the street from where we live. Within a few short weeks there were hundreds of students occupying that building without any permission from the Iriya! One of our neighbors requested permission more than 4 years ago to build a small shule on that very site, and he went through all of the legal channels, and has a pile of papers from all of the various government agencies to prove it. To make a long story very short, the new mayor saw to it that this new school would remain, despite their criminal activity, and that was that! It is well known that well over a hundred families that send their children to this school are the very "kanaim" who you speak about in your eloquently written article who give a bad name to Torah-observant Jews, not just here, but all over the world! I guess "V'ahavata l'rayacha kamocha" and respecting the laws of the country in which one lives are not part of what adherents to this "new brand of Judaism" believe in. And unfortunately my husband and I, along with countless others, have no choice but to sit by and hope that things don't get any worse than they are now. Any ideas which you may have to improve this intolerable situation would be greatly appreciated. Very truly yours, Ruth Siegman


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


64. Blaming the Victim     3/18/09 - 3:57 AM
Yakov Horowitz; Monsey NY - rabbihorwitz@rabbihorowitz.com

To shpole zaide and chaya -- #40 and 61:

As you may know, I have done quite a bit of work with abuse victims. The mindset of your posts is exactly how some people respond to rape and wife beating --

1) she was dressed in a way that provoked him to rape her

2) he is really a nice guy who only does this a tiny percent of the time

3) he beat her cause she got him so angry that he lost it.

I am not chas vshalom suggesting that you 2 are like that --only that you have been cnditioned to think this way.

"Miriam Shear started up with the kaniom by sitting in the front of the bus -- that's why they beat her"

sounds familiar????

I have privately said for years now -- this is the first time I am writing this in public -- that a high percentage of these violent criminals are child molestors, wife beaters and worse. This has nothing to do with religion. Nothing. They have an unhealthy obsession with women.

Mark my words. When the dust settles, you will be shocked to see how high the percentage is. I suspect each and every one of these thugs of the worst averos.

I welcome your thoughts.

Yakov


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


65. Once again, kol havod to Rabbi Horowitz for leading the way with love and wisdom     3/18/09 - 4:25 AM
Yardena - EY

To #5, CB: Nice response.

To #27,Rikismom: Stories like yours prove the effectiveness of a truly Jewish approach.

To #62, Suzanne: Your response to the raging man was crucial and I admire you for it. It makes a world of difference to a victim when even only one person stands up for them. It's one of those situations where the difference between "no one" and "someone" makes all the difference.

It's shocking to hear about females being pounded on. When I first came to Israel, these tsniyus groups only went after sex offenders and men who wouldn't give their wife a get.

By the way, not everyone stands idly by. When my friend's son and his friends were attacked by a tsniyus group, people frightened them off by screaming "Stop! Stop!" out their windows and threatening to call the police. (He hadn't done anything horribly perveted, but the father of the young divorcee involved refused to believe that his daughter had become promiscuous and instead blamed all the boys, and it was his version that the tsniyus group heard.)

One of the reasons it is so hard to control the violence is because the perpetrators are likely Erev Rav and we've never been particularly good at dealing with them and their nasty tricks.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


66. The Beautiful Eyes of King David     3/18/09 - 4:32 AM
P Siegel - Jerusalem - pgsiegel@gmail.com

We are a nation of truth seekers, hence we find ourselves gripped with overpowering passions. This is dangerous. The most abominable crimes can be justified by the pursuit of the middah of emmes. Pinchos held back his hand from killing Zimri. First, he sought the vision of the Baal HaMesorah, Moshe Rabeinu. Only then, did he act. This in direct contrast with the builders of the Eigel HaZahav, Meraglim, and the assemblage of Korach.

Dovid HaMelech was chosen to lead our nation. He possessed a red complexion, indicative of a blood spilling nature. But his eyes were "yafeh". He would kill only "al pi Sanhedrin". He viewed himself only as a tool, a weapon, to be wielded by the Mosrei HaTorah.

The zealots of our day, who feel compelled to inflict their brand of justice upon their victims, are none other than baalei gaava. They mistakenly think that this is their world. Anything which does not fit into their own definition of existence must be eliminated. They are wrong. It is the Boreh Olam's world, who created the world with the Torah. The Torah is called "Rachmana" - compassion. May Hashem have rachmanus on them and grant them the heavenly assistance they so desperately need.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


67. Yirbu Kamocha Be'Yisrael     3/18/09 - 4:42 AM
Dovid

I am a dati leumi guy who lives in a dati leumi community in Israel - but who very much admires many things about the charedim. I can tell you that, unfortunately, incidents such as these are a MAJOR cause of the resentment harbored by many Israelis toward the charedim. Sadly, people are too affected by the media hype these things trigger, and can't distinguish between the few rotten apples and the orchards' worth of beautiful apples.

A CONCERTED, PUBLIC EFFORT TO DENOUNCE THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR, AS PROPOSED BY RABBI HOROWITZ, WILL GO A LONG WAY TO IMPROVING THE CHAREDIM'S IMAGE AMONG THE GENERAL ISRAELI POPULATION.

Trust me, it's not just that Israelis hate Torah "stam" and therefore hate charedim. It's the fact that they are exposed to only the bad and not the good. I beg the charedi community to accept Rabbi Horowitz's advice and make an effort to show the rest of the Klal Yisrael what Torah really is.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


68. Well Said     3/18/09 - 5:07 AM
Areyh - Johannesburg

Thank You Rabbi Horowitz. These Hareidim are no different from the Taliban. Hashem longs for Achdut and Ahavas Yisroel.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


69. A Breath of Fresh Air     3/18/09 - 6:03 AM
Lana (Leslie) Schechter - Boro Park

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for having the courage and skill to articulate the issues facing our community. Being a Baalos Teshuva, it is very painful to see and hear what is tolerated by the frum community at large when it comes to these hot-button issues.

I am greatly heartened by the fact that you, Rabbi Twerski and others are working so diligently on change in these areas, and always with a true Torah perspective. It gives me (and I gather many others)hope when a true Torah leader speaks out about any of these issues. This is true Ahavas Yisrael.

May Hashem give you the koach to continue doing your good work.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


70. Leaders called upon to lead     3/18/09 - 6:13 AM
Bob Miller

With atrocities like this going on, I expect our leaders to lead openly, not to stand aside. They may be extremely modest people, and we know how precious their time is, but no one else will stand up for justice and restore our good name if they fail to step forward. Like Esther in Shushan, they were put here for a purpose, and restoring order is a major part of that. I already imagine comments like "OK, so who will follow them"? We can never know the answer to that until our leaders act together in public, but we certainly do know what happens now when they don't.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


71. Wait a second...     3/18/09 - 6:46 AM
Anonymous

It's easy to "scream sheigitz" at these hooligans. After all, they're 100% wrong.

BUT

Where did this kana'us come from?

How about the sly little bits of sinas chinam that infect our communities? The litle jokes about Ashkenaz/Sepahrdi/Chassidishe/too-modern etc?

Rabbi Horowitz, you have rhetorically asked, "Why are our teenagers so materialistic?" You whispered, "Because we are!" Likewise, when a stable individual hears innuendos about "yenem," he or she can handle them and go on, but when an unstable person is exposed to the same poison, the result is charedi violence and one chillul Hashem after the next.

Outreach has to be done to these weaklings, to show them bi'poel that the path of Torah is a path of peace. We have their names...

Lastly, is anyone taking care of Elchanan Buzaglo's family? Their breadwinner is out of action for the next four years! All they know is that Abba was out there doing "the right thing," now he's in jail, they're suffering, no one cares, and everyone's calling him a criminal! Helping them would be true ahavas chinam.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


72. Rabbi Horowitz is right as usual!!!     3/18/09 - 7:09 AM
Gershon Distenfeld - Bergenfield, NJ

Rabbi Horowitz once again writes eloquently about that which so many of us are thinking but are too afraid to state publicly.

Rav Horowitz states that "There is no question in my mind that the vast, overwhelming majority of charedi Jews worldwide feel as I do".

Unfortunately, the general public doesn't see it that way and while Rav Horowitz is likely correct, perception is often more important than reality.

The silence of the Gedolim is deafening here. They are so quick to sign "bans" on things like concerts but not a word here. I'm not chas v'shalom suggesting that our Gedolim agree with this type of behavior but we do have a concept of "sh'tika k'hoda'ah" and it is incumbent upon them to strongly object to this type of behavior in the harshest terms.

How about a "Kol Koeri" on ever using violence to achieve spiritual results?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


73. To # 61     3/18/09 - 7:41 AM
Anonymous

You wrote: "The only chareidi columnist with the sense to relate to the act as "reported" as opposed to absolute truth (the report appeared in HaAretz, not exactly a paper known for its objectivity) was Yonason Rosenblum"

Actually, Rabbi Rosenblum has verified that story.You can read it in his own words here:

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/12/12/burning-down-our-own-neighborhoods-again-2/

There is a problem here. Don't rationalize it away!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


74. Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz     3/18/09 - 8:07 AM
Charlie Hall - Bronx, NY - pg449works@yahoo.com

Just wanted to indicate my support.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


75. Cowardly     3/18/09 - 8:21 AM
Eliyahu Ben Shmuel - Phoenix, Arizona - EliyahuBenShumel@gmail.com

Hitting a woman in itself is cowardly; furthermore, attempting to subjugate a humans will by force is something that not even Hashem dares to do! These cowards think they have more authority than Hashem?! That they can impose their will upon a human being?! I would slap each one of them in the face and spit on them for this shameful act!! They themselves deserve to be beaten in return and I volunteer for THAT squad.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


76. Adding a Voice     3/18/09 - 8:22 AM
Ezzie Goldish - Flushing, NY - serandez@gmail.com

Just showing support for this endeavor.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


77. At least there's ONE brave Jew!     3/18/09 - 8:23 AM
Yossi Ginzberg - New York City

Thanks, Rabbi Horowitz- It's a brave and necessary thing to disavow the crazies, the apologists, and the abusers among us.

It's a sad comment that hundreds wrote in to the heimishe news website about an alleged treif hotdog incident, and so many fewer to support something this important. Why do we have a rabbinate that can join together quickly to ban one Lipa, yet takes years to even make a comment about the other Lipa, the protector of abusers? Why will "they" not disavow those who abuse others, the Jewish Taliban, like this article does? Why are the gedolim there for thrips and cocapods, Indian hair and goyish music, and not there for child abuse, sexual abuse, agunos, chilul Hashem and fraud amongst the "frum" world and even amongst the rabbonim themselves? Why don't they realize that they are driving away more people than the kiruv programs bring in with this behavior?

Stay brave, Rabbi. Don't let the small-minded ones deter you.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


78. I support the sentiments expressed here     3/18/09 - 8:27 AM
Nisan Jaffee - Baltimore

I support the sentiments expressed here


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


79. complete support     3/18/09 - 8:31 AM
Sherri - Florida - abundant.s@gmail.com

Thank you for standing up for Torah--the real one, not the made up one by those crazies in frum uniforms.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


80. I agree     3/18/09 - 8:31 AM
Miriam Bat Sarah - Baltimore/MD

I am Miriam bat Sarah a Hassidic Jewess in Baltimore, MD, and could not agree more with Rabbi Horowitz's courageous and clear statement. We must all stand up against this.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


81. Thank you for taking control and trying to right the wrongs of our society     3/18/09 - 8:42 AM
Rahel Hardoon - Far Rockaway, NY


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


82. Very Important That We Speak Up About This     3/18/09 - 8:56 AM
J. Salman - Brooklyn, NY

There should be no room in the Jewish community for people who use violence and disrespect against women.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


83. Absolutely 100% correct     3/18/09 - 8:57 AM
Zev Steinhardt - Brooklyn, NY - zev@izev.com

Rabbi Horowitz,

Thank you for being a courageous speaker on this issue. Please keep up the good work.

Zev Steinhardt


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


84. Thank You for Your Courage     3/18/09 - 9:07 AM
Harry Maryles - Chicago - hmaryles@yahoo.com

I respectfully call upon charedim worldwide to post a comment at the bottom of the column with your name and email address and the city where you live supporting the sentiments expressed here.

Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh LaZeh. I am not Charedi but that does not absolve me of being responsible for my fellow Jews. I therefore affix my name and e-mail address to this column in full support of your sentiments.

Harry Maryles hmaryles@yahoo.com


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


85. R' Eli Teitelbaum Zt'l - November 21, 2007 Jewish Press     3/18/09 - 9:27 AM
Shades of Grey

I would like to add my name to those who approve of Rabbi Yakov Horowitz's Nov. 9 op-ed article "You Might End Up Dead." While these crazies are fortunately few in number, they make a massive chillul Hashem, since the media do not differentiate between wild extremists and most other Orthodox Jews. If we remain silent when women are attacked by misguided individuals, we are all guilty - as we learn from what happened when the holy shevet of Binyamin refused to take action when a woman was violated by a wild gang of youths in their midst. A tremendous number of Jews died in vain and the shevet of Binyamin was nearly wiped out. One can resort to civil disobedience but never to violence. Often our Torah leaders are afraid to call mass protests against public Torah desecrations only because of the fear that some individuals will get out of hand and receive all the media attention, thereby causing a chillul Hashem instead of a kiddush shem shomayim. All of us must protest such behavior lest our silence be interpreted as acquiescence. Unless we all clearly distance ourselves from such behavior we, too, are guilty.

Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum

(Via E-Mail)

http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/26134


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


86. Thank you     3/18/09 - 9:33 AM
Betty Cherniak - Baltimore

Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz, for having the integrity and courage to write about the violence of the ultra-right-wing "orthodox" and condemn it. Please suggest anything at all that the "rest of us" can do to help counter the situation; I'm truly afraid that the Orthodox world will be hijacked by right-wing terrorists, as is happening already; extremism is very attractive to some types and fear can easily be used to intimidate and control, thus eradicating the voice of moderates. The situation is truly frightening. What can we do? A letter campaign to local rabbis? A counter-demonstration? Please tell us. Thank you.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


87. Ha'Shomer achi .....?     3/18/09 - 9:34 AM
Rabbi Ze'ev Smason - St. Louis, MO - Pepshort613@sbcglobal.net

We ARE our brother's keeper. Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz, for repudiating this cancer in our midst in a most compelling and erudite way.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


88. Thank you     3/18/09 - 10:02 AM
Anonymous

Rabbi Henoch Moshe Levin -- Monsey, NY


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


89. Thank You!     3/18/09 - 10:05 AM
Anonymous

THANK YOU


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


90. THANK YOU!!!     3/18/09 - 10:28 AM
Eitan Levy - Noqdim, Gush Etzion, Israel - eitanhalevy@gmail.com

Thank you for having the courage to say what needs to be said. Hatzlachah in all your work!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


91. Thank You     3/18/09 - 10:35 AM
lisa elon - atlanta GA


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


92. An ounce of prevention     3/18/09 - 10:38 AM
Shlomo Spitzer - sspitzer@copper.net

Wish we could nip it in the bud by having eye opening lectures presented in our schools, especially in the communities where such incidents take place. Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for your efforts.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


93. thank you     3/18/09 - 10:49 AM
shaya goldmeier - chicago, il - gldmeier@rcn.com


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


94. Teaching to respect women is foremost     3/18/09 - 10:52 AM
D. Gilbert - Baltimore, MD USA

In order for men to respect women, we need to change something essential as misinterpreted in our Torah regarding the rights of women. I am referring to getting a get from a man for a woman to remarry or to be free. This is a big flaw in our understanding of the meaning of a get. I feel that as long as a woman is subjected to a man, there will be abuses all along. Economic situations are not an excuse for this barbaric action, there are very well to-do men that abuse their women in a violent confrontation everyday and no one is bringing them to the law or make them ashamed of their behavior. For whatever reason, a man has been giving the "right" to beat his wife and not be punished for it. Again, I feel strongly that it starts with the "right" of a man not to give a get to his wife for any reason he chooses and the Chief Rabbis and Gaon have not been able to change this law while many other laws giving more rights to men have been amended, but somehow, no one seems to be able to amend the law of giving a get to a woman. This should be the forefront of any rabbi of this century to make this change right away. By finally giving a voice to a woman, loud and clear, the message of respecting a woman will not be confusing. We are teaching our children to respect our mothers and sisters, and at the same time, we are telling them that it is ok to abuse them and not to listen to them because they are foolish. No wonder that they have no idea of how to behave with a woman. The teaching is confusing. Yeshivot are producing "computer minded people" who have no sense of what a woman is, how to talk to her, how to respect her, and how to cherish her. Yeshivot are not teaching manners and kavot to anyone. I am sorry to say that the yeshivot have let down many people by their lack of teaching what is important to become a "mensch". Yeshivot seem to be more eager to have lots of students and let them be what they want to be. It is becoming a breeding of violence, a disfunctional setting where each child needs to fence for himself. Yeshivot need to restructure themselves to bring healthy and productive men into the society where they live. Again, until the yeshiva world proclaims loud and clear the rights of every woman to be free from enslavement of a husband, there will continue to be abuses in the charedi world.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


95. Keep up the good work     3/18/09 - 10:59 AM
Yehoshua Dixler - Baltimore - joshd111@hotmail.com

Rabbi Horowitz does so much good work and has the right approach to this generation of youth. Let's give him all the support he deserves.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


96. The Blame Game     3/18/09 - 11:12 AM
DvorahLeah - Dedham, MA

We've all read of such raids in Afganistan; in Iran. But here ? Excuse the choice of words, but people who live in the haredi community are ... terrorized... by the Haredi community. "Don't wear loafers. Your daughter won't get a shidduch". Or "such a shonda. Her son is learning a parnasah." It's the art of making others wrong. When left unchecked in our hearts and behavior, it spirals out of control, and becomes Vigilante-ism. We know that perpetrators and those who enable them.. by condoning, by rationalizing, by looking away... by covering up, endanger our lives as Jews.

Bless Rabbi Horowitz for standing up and speaking out. And let us bless each other with the clarity to see and the courage to cry out against oppression and deception, especially when clothed in "holiness".

Remember the lesson of Job. When we don't cry out against injustice ... uh oh !

P.S. Invite a Jew to his first taste of Shabbat. The memory of those few hours in your home will nourish you for a very long time.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


97. The tip of the iceberg     3/18/09 - 11:12 AM
A mol gelernt in Brisk - Long Island, NY

Rabbi Horowitz, yasher koyech and please do not stop here. We know there are forces trying to silence you.

The Yerushalmi menuvolim are only laymen. There are many other gangsters posing as our rabbonim and manhigim who do kol dovor ra in the name of Yiddishkeit r"l.

Among other cases, a sociopath with a white beard and long levush in Brooklyn has fostered the sexual abuse of young boys for decades by the rebbeim in his "yeshiva" that is still considered popular by the shallow masses. Despite the decisive rulings by the gedolei Eretz Yisroel that child abusers must be stopped at all cost, the empty reklach posing as the gedolei America are guilty of what you aptly describe as the greatest chilul Hashem of all - the cover up. You were mechaven to Rav Carlebach ztl, the last Rov of Hamburg, who said that covering up chilul Hashem leads to even greater chilul Hashem when the cover up is exposed.

R' Chaim (Soloveitchik) ztl said the duty of a rov is to help those who have tzoress. Not only has one of our "leading" organizations done zero to help abuse victims but their spokesman insults them and rubs salt into their wounds every time he opens his foolish mouth on the subject or shall I say to deny the subject. I know that yenner tipesh is reading this website and I will have him know that a large segment of the oylam he purports to represent, including many rabbonim are disgusted with him and his superiors. R' Chaim ztl would also not join this very same organization doros ago, predicting that they would come to this. This gadol beyisroel of times past had a more elegant way of saying the lunatics would be running the asylum.

It is time to work with the real gedolim to stop this machlah. Not the manufactured gedolim by virtue of cronyism and photo ops as R' Berel ztl would say.

Vehamayven yoven.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


98. Thank you!     3/18/09 - 11:22 AM
Anonymous

Chani, Baltimore MD


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


99. support for RYH     3/18/09 - 11:38 AM
Fayge Young

Rabbi Horowitz, I salute you and all those who really put it on the line to tell it like it is. May I just suggest to all those who wonder where the kol koreis are, I personally assume that something is coming but will give those whose names may make a real dent in this sad situation some time to research the situation and formulate their words well.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


100. Thank You for standing up for the hurt     3/18/09 - 12:12 PM
Dina - Baltimore, MD

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for caring about every single Jew. Condemning those who are wrong - is a kindness to all. It helps us encourage good to only flourish. May Hashem give you much strength to continue doing your holy and important work.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


101. kudos     3/18/09 - 12:27 PM
Dov Schwartz - Ramat Bet Shemesh ISRAEL

we here in RBS A support everything u are doing!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


102. If we really support Rabbi Horowitz . . .     3/18/09 - 12:50 PM
Chaim Goldsmith - Southfield, MI

I too would like to commend Rabbi Horowitz on his "stepping up to the plate and hitting one out of the park" by speaking out on these difficult issues.

If we really support the work he's doing, perhaps in these difficult economic times, this is the time for us to also "step up to the plate" and prove it, by sending in an ad for the dinner journal in his honor to his Yeshiva - Darchei Noam in Monsey.

I know that there are links at the top of this article for reaching his Yeshiva. It's just a thought, but perhaps this is one time where we can show our Hakoras Hatov.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


103. Yasher Koach     3/18/09 - 1:39 PM
Yisrael - Spring Valley, NY

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for leading the way.

As a side note, I would caution people from putting their email address on a forum board, especially in a readable format such as name@domain.com. Internet bots pick these up and feed them to spam servers. Better way to do this is using a syntax like this: name at domain dot com.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


104. Kol Hakovod     3/18/09 - 1:42 PM
anonymous


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


105. Well Said     3/18/09 - 2:44 PM
Moshe

You are absolutely correct; I only wish other gedolim had the foresight, intelligence and courage to speak out agianst these despicable acts. Too mnay gedolim either affirmatively condone such activities or condone it with their deafening silence.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


106.     3/18/09 - 3:05 PM
Gavi Kaufman - Montreal, Quebec - gabriel.kaufman@umontreal.ca

I am happy to add my name to such a public statement... Rav Horowitz is a "magen" for klall yisroel, and I hope he continues his holy work.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


107. In support of your article     3/18/09 - 3:45 PM
E. Kahana - New Hempstead, NY


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


108. kol havod     3/18/09 - 4:51 PM
Yossi Wolkenstein - Brooklyn, NY

kol havod to you Rabbi Horowitz. Thank you for writing this article and giving the rest of us the opportunity to support the sentiments.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


109. I was attacked 10 times in Jerusalem     3/18/09 - 4:58 PM
Nancy Cuevas Guzman - currently, Valencia Spain - genesischapter32@yahoo.com

Dear Rabbi Horowitz,

Thank you for this article and for your efforts. I personally experienced the violence that you speak of by Charaedim and had to flee Jerusalem! More painful than the violence was the fact that other Jews blamed me! I was told that I was hurting others by speaking out and thereby causing people to not believe in the Torah. I was also made to feel embarrassment because I complained about this violence. I was told that I should not embarrass others, even my tormentors! Two rabbis called me "emotional", which also implies that "something is wrong with me". I came to Israel with all my heart and soul, with much zeal and love for Torah....and this is what I got??? I have been so deeply traumatized by the shunning of religious Jews who I thought would protect me. Israel should have been the best experience of my life, not the most painful. I still have nightmares from it, but I have only been gone for 7 weeks.

I continue to receive threats, just recently even, because I decided to tell my story for I knew there must be others who experienced this. Just as I suspected, women have contacted me with similar stories. Our biggest problem is just the same old thing that the prophets have said over and over. We do not practice Justice. THERE IS NO JUSTICE!!! Apparantly we never learn this lesson although it is cited hundreds of times in Tanach. Example: Micah says, "Hear you leaders of Jacob, rulers in the House of Israel...Is it not your duty to know what is right?...you who abhor what is just and pervert all that is right who build up Zion with bloodshed and Jerusalem with wickedness!" We should all know by now that Hashem doesn't care for sacrifices. He just wants us to have Justice and Kindness and Walk in His Ways. Isn't that simple and beautiful? I hope someday we will finally get our act together, but we need you and others to continue to speak out. This is how we educate others and bring about change. Thank you, Rabbi, for really doing your job well. Bravo!

Nancy Cuevas Guzman Valencia, Spain


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


110. They do represent you!!!     3/18/09 - 5:15 PM
Alex - Brooklyn

Rabbi Horowitz,

The reason why I take a postion that these patrols do represent the haredi/orthodox community is because these entities are not self sponsored or self organized. Who bankrolls and spiritually supports these patrol members? The unfortunate answer is rabbeim and wealthy haredi Jews.

Until there is more democracy, modernity and accountability within the Haredi world, these incidents will be more frequent and more violent.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


111. As usual R'Horowitz is the lone voice of reason     3/18/09 - 5:48 PM
Ephraim - wabbi.1e@gmail.com

Can anyone tell me who besides R' Horowitz and perhaps Johnathan Rosenblum has done a thing to combat these issues.

It is stunning to see all these comments here and on other sites supporting the positions taken by these brave and intrepid writers.

BUT to Paraphrase Rabbi Noach Weinberg were are YOU? what have you done to alleviate these diseases from our midst.

Yes we have the seculars who think we are all the taliban the MO who think we are all deluded and the lost,spiteful,former frum who decry all. it is quite obvious that the answer does not lie with them. Then i therefore challenge YOU the reader who cares so much for this issue that you have read all these comments TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT next time you see an incident were some hooligan berates an secular Jew for a perceived breach of conduct will you stand by?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


112. I thought it obvious     3/18/09 - 6:36 PM
Ronny Biderman - Brooklyn, NY

We live in strange times if this even needs to be said.

I strongly support you and your message.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


113. Well Said!     3/18/09 - 7:15 PM
Aviva - PA - avivamommy@gmail.com

Well put. It frightens me that Haredi society is characterized by the actions of deranged zelots. Their actions oppose Torah values. It is equally upsetting to read news which labels the perpetrators as Haredi as in a recent Jerusalem post article "Haredim suspected of defacing Livni on election posters". In response to this article I responded: "Regarding your latest article, "Haredim suspected of defacing Livni on election posters", I take offense at the title and content which accuses Haredim of perpetrating vandalism. I am an Othodox Jew and like my co-religionists, consider the defacement that took place to be a crime. The vandals might consider themselves to be Haredi, irregardless, their crime is offensive and no matter what they purport, their actions are not supported by Torah true values. By labeling them by their religious preference, you are stereotyping a large (and diverse!) group of people who condemn such behavior."


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


114. I agree with you, Rabbi Horowitz     3/18/09 - 7:50 PM
EllenKSinger - Baltimore,Md. 21215 - EllenKSinger@aol.com

I did not know such things as you described were happening in our community. I know that there is domestic abuse and sexual abuse in the Orthodox community, and I have friends who cannot believe that "upstanding Torah personalities" in our community could have committed susch heinous acts.

I did not know, however, that there are people "among us" who consider themselves to be the "modesty Police" and feel they are entitled to inflict violence on women indiscriminately where ever they see them acting in ways contrary to their own ideas of appropriate dress or action. This truly makes me both sick and scared; it smacks of the most extreme Muslim practices against women. It is frightening to think that this these forms of abuse could be happening in our community. How can we shut our eyes to the doing of these perverted people. They must fully punished even if they are or have been considered pillars of the community.

The damage to the victims is so great, ruining lives of innocent people. Yet so many people in our community say "Oh, this doesn't happen in our community" or "So-and-so could never have done such a thing" even though responsible and carefully documentation proves it to be so. Many of us continue to hold these delusions about the honorability of noted community members who guilty of these acts until a cherished relative, friend, and friend's relative becomes a victim of these horrible and destructive perversions.

Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz, for speaking out on these importanot issues, problems which we wish didn't exist and which would disappear. They will not disappear, however, until we, as a community, acknowledge them and confront them with vigor as community.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


115. To #110 - Wrong X3     3/18/09 - 8:29 PM
Benzion Twerski

To #110

Wrong, wrong, wrong. These groups are not funded by hareidim, not the populace, nor the leaders. These groups do not engage in public fundraising efforts. No dinners, Chinese auctions, mailings, etc. These are simply volunteers who are horribly misguided, and seek to take the law into their own hands. While there are some who might assume that these groups are benign, the majority of the community is wary of them, and fully aware that they do NOT have rabbinic leadership to provide guidance and boundaries. So they run rampant and commit the atrocities that become newsworthy.

There is also zero spiritual support. The ones who conduct these groups are not rabbis themselves, and they do not seek leadership from anyone else. They are self supporting zealots. It is inaccurate and unfair to blame the rest of the community for the violations of a few. I am also “machmir” about tznius, and I consider that virtuous. Most of the frum community is of similar thought. None of us would use violence to “be right”. The zealots in this incident are the exception to the rule. The purpose of the article is to collect the support of the position that the violent stuff that was committed here.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


116. Glad you spoke up!     3/18/09 - 9:10 PM
Anonymous

Stop the anti-Torah mishmar hatsniyut.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


117. What Losers     3/18/09 - 9:55 PM
Anonymous

It amazes me to how low a level people can sink. Take this guy who thought of himself as a tough, torah abiding person, and ran into a womans apartment with FOUR other guys and beat her. Not only is this man a tremendous coward, but he deserves every second in prison if not more.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


118. no support     3/18/09 - 10:08 PM
Yakov Ish Tam

R' Twerski -

Although you're quite correct that there's no official support, these people act with the knowledge that they have the community's implicit support. After all, if no one in the community really cares enough to do anything, that's a tacit acknowledgment that they are not so against these actions. If no rabbonim speak out against them, isn't that an implied endorsement? After all, we all know that rabbonim speak up quite loudly when there's even the slightest hint of a problem these days! They obviously don't think this is as bad as a problematic concert or a questionable sheitel.

I hate to break it to all the chareidi people here, but these sort of horrible actions are not produced in a vacuum. A clear path can be traced from the extreme ideas that are taught in many mainstream yeshivas, to the community policies that have become more and more established, such as crazy levels of tznius (separate buses, separate streets, separate store hours, etc.), to not allowing pictures of modestly dressed women in periodicals, to forcing families out of homes because they aren't chareidi enough, to throwing acid and bleach at women, to stoning buses, to attacks on RY in ponovezh, to intimidating people such as yourself from serving on an important task force (whatever happened to that anyway?), to violently attacking women on buses, and now to breaking into a person's home and attacking her. (I have sources for every one of those examples if anyone is interested.)

When so many of these sorts of actions barely register even the slightest protest from the chareidi public or leadership, and often even garner defenses of these behaviors, then these people know that they are supported by their community (even if the community doesn't openly cheer them on) and do not need to be worried about any consequences from those quarters.

After all, if child molesters and those who protect them can still remain respected members of the frum community, does someone who beat up a supposedly promiscuous woman really have to worry about the frum community giving him a hard time?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


119. 110: "Who bankrolls and spiritually supports these patrol members?"     3/18/09 - 10:25 PM
Anonymous

"Who bankrolls and spiritually supports these patrol members?" The same sort of psychologically inbalanced individuals who fund and support organizations such as Al-Kaida, Islamis Jihad, and Hamas. Fundamentalism, especially when it finds expression in violence, is totally unrelated to spirituality. Religion just happens to represent a fertile breeding ground in which pathologies of intolerance and self-righteousness easily sprout and find convenient modes of expression.

Motivation to join organizations such as the Vaad Hatznius stem neither from the encouragement of the Rabbinate nor from a lack of "democracy, modernity, or accountability" in the chareidi olam--all external factors. Rather, violent fundamentalism is driven by a complex web of internal insecurities, perceived threats to one's group identity, and desperation to gain self-esteem through seeking a 'meaningful,' potent personal identity.

Despite comments posted about the irrelevance of this thread to the subject of parenting, it appears that quite the opposite is true. If anything, the entire topic of intolerance and violence (even the milder sort found in our sandboxes and playgrounds)emphasizes the primacy of our responsibility to instill our children with self-esteem and mental health. I am quite sure that no individual raised with a healthy self-image and balanced psyche has ever sprayed bleach, thrown stones, or relied upon physical violence as a means to express spiritual devotion.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


120.     3/18/09 - 10:39 PM
Anonymous

It is not true that no rabbonim spoke against these hoodlums. R' Moishe Sternbuch, dayan with the Eidah Charedis said there is a chiyuv to call the police on them if you know they are up to violence.

There is a very bitterly anti-frum blogger who claims that the hoodlums are directed by a major Chassidishe Rebbe. This blogger is more interested in attacking rabbonim than presenting facts however. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this? It IS true that this Rebbe and rabbonim from that Chassidus have been protecting Mondrowitz and trying to sabotage his extradition. For this reason alone, these rabbonim are lowlives who go against the retzon Hashem.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


121. A Three Pronged Assault on the Jewish People     3/18/09 - 11:06 PM
Tzvi Abraham

It's not only Hillul Hashem. This violence alienates many Haredi youth who are in danger of going "off the derech" in other ways for reasons of their own. In other words, these thugs, besides being criminals that are a physical menace to women, and committing a Hillul Hashem that resonates throughout the world (and is not doubt cited by some to justify their anti-semitism), are "khotei umachtee"--they cause others to turn from the Torah and fall into sinful ways. This has to stop! It is three-pronged assault on the Jewish people!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


122.     3/18/09 - 11:08 PM
Yakov Ish Tam

> "R' Moishe Sternbuch, dayan with the Eidah Charedis said there is a chiyuv to call the police on them if you know they are up to violence."

And how many calls do you think the police ever got? One rav making a general statement not directed at any particular person or group is really not very impressive in my opinion. How many schools were called up demanding that they not allow the children of these people into their classrooms? How many institutions were told that donors would withhold support if no substantial action was taken? How many shidduchim were broken off because they were related to these kind of people? How many kids were kicked out of yeshiva for participating in such behaviors? How many roshei yeshiva were told that they are not welcome to speak at an event if they did not do something about these issues? How many rabbonim were pressured by their kehilos to take action? How many people came to R' Elyashuv telling him that his name is being used to promote stupidities while everyone is looking for some genuine guidance on these more grave issues? How many boycotts were held? How many yimei tefila were there? How many protests held? How many kol koreis?

We need to ask ourselves, how much real action has the chareidi public really demanded be done about these sort of things? I think it's quite evident that there has been far more vocal and forceful reactions (from both the leadership and the public) in regards to sheitels, kashrus, jewish music, torah books, and other such issues than there has ever been to any of the truly pressing issues I mentioned earlier.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


123. We are in full support of your courageous stance     3/18/09 - 11:56 PM
Rebecca Friedman & Lenny Brown - Passaic, NJ - rebeccafriedman@yahoo.com

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for taking a stand on this issue. As Baalei Teshuva, we are horrified by incidents like those described, and deeply disappointed in the lack of response from the "Gedolim." Your courage is heartening, and goes a long way to restore some of our faded trust in rabbis as spiritual leaders, not just people who can tell you if a spoon that fell in a meat pot needs to be kashered.

Hashem should bring you great success in your efforts. Please let us know how we can be of help.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


124. yes we can, change, hope, moving foward, coming together:community activist to President     3/19/09 - 12:20 AM
Rocco Lampone - KitBrain71@yahoo.com

This article is truly a kidush Hashem. It demonstrates how years of Torah study can even give a person wisdom in wordly affairs. Additionally, it shows how even someone steeped in a world of substance and actions, can quickly and effortlessly, acclimate himslef to the world of PR and fluff with amazing deft and dexterity.

ONly an individual who understands the ramifications of the airing of dirty laundry can write such an article. By constantly exposing fallacies in our community for the sake of the greater good it is clear that Yanki has an on the ground understanding of the harms of bad publicity.

Why do you post on anti-charedi blogs?

Mey tayereh, the anti-charedi world (and blogosphere)was running on a full tank of gas way before these incidents. If you are successful in this campaign, do you think that-after the short honeymoon and the accolades- they will not revert back to the old stereotyping? They will just rehash Lipa and Slifkin and the Internet ban ad infinitum. In a best case scenario, there will still be some sporadic violence and they use it as 'proof' that the insiduos charedey monster still lurks beneath the surface.

You obviously noticed that many have linked the violence to all charedies in general, implicating the entire community, even those of us living in America. I assume that you haven't yet mastered the Israeli chinuch system and you are ostenisbly doing damage control in America. Do you think that those are associating the Vaad Hatzniyus with Lakewood internet bans, are rational and are willing to listen to reasoning?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


125. In a place where there is no man, stand up and be a man.     3/19/09 - 12:59 AM
Boruch Len - NMB FL

It is very sad that an article like this needs to be written. It is a travesty to Yiddishkeit and to to HaShem that organizations like the "modesty patrol" even exist. Excellent job Rabbi Horowitz, now we need some action to be taken to ensure this disease gets wiped out. And a message to Nancy Cuevas Guzman, I am really sorry for the pain that you went through, and applaud you for standing up and telling the truth about what happened. Neither is easy, the experience you went through was not your fault, and as difficult as it is, the Standing up for truth and justice, is your strength. I wish you the best.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


126. Rabbi Horowitz, Stick to Your Guns!     3/19/09 - 1:30 AM
Eli

Reb Yanky,

Once again you have penned a powerful message from the heart.If there were only more like you!

But R' Yanky please stick to your "guns"! You have come to israel many times and spoken for organziations that are under the pikuach of the very same Rabbonim that you take to task.

Yes, some of these organizations do good work but you must delve deeper into who is behind them.

I had the pleasure of hearing you speak in Ramat Bet Shemesh for a local organization that helps "teens at risk". This organziation has the rabbinical advice of people who harbor molesters and encourage Charedi bullying.

Please consider this before you come to speak for them again!

Your words are too important to be challenged based on associations.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


127. I couldn't agree more     3/19/09 - 1:43 AM
Dovid Zalkin - Modiin Illit, Israel - dlzalkin@gmail.com

I'm glad that someone took the initiative to speak about this terrible incident.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


128. I Agree 1000%     3/19/09 - 1:56 AM
Steven Ruddell - Kiriat Yearim Israel

Its about time that Rabbi Horiwitz's words were spoken. Lets eliminate the plague from our midst.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


129.     3/19/09 - 2:59 AM
Chaya - EY

I think that in my earlier comment (I think it was #61)I was not clear enough, especially based on Rabbi Horowitz's response.

Neither I nor #40 - and we both emphasized this clearly - excused the violence. Our points were a)That some of the media hype is just that, hype; and b) That while the violence is inexcusable, that does not mean that it is right for people to act in accordance with what they feel are appropriate standards of tznius when they find themselves within a community that holds differently.

An example of that mindset MIGHT be #120's definition of "crazy levels of tznius":

"such as crazy levels of tznius (separate buses, separate streets, separate store hours, etc.), to not allowing pictures of modestly dressed women in periodicals. . ."

I hate to break it to anyone, but for a great sector of the chareidi community in EY - both Chassidish AND Litvish - these are not crazy. I am thrilled that where I live there is a mehadrin setup on the inter-city buses, and I see no reason in the world why pictures of women should be allowed in periodicals that are meant for the entire family. I am not alone, either. And when the majority of a population in a community or city feels the same way, then if one doesn't but wants to live in the community anyway - for whatever reason - then it is not appropriate to do what one wants regardless of the standards that the community has accepted upon itself. If one feels that separate buses are a crazy level of tznius and one lives within a community that supports separate buses, then one has to make a decision - either live with it or move.

This has nothing to do with violence being okay. It is not. But it does have to do with excusing inapproprate behavior and presenting the victims as having done nothing disrespectful simply because the reaction to their behavior was inexcusable.

And not all organizations of mishmeres hatznius resort to voiolence, either, BTW.

P.S. Just for the record, I also emphasized that I had no clue as to whether the facts in the Beit Shemesh bus incidents were accurate or not. My point was that, at the very start when the only report was from HaAretz, frum columnists (who wrote that they were basing their words on HaAretz) assumed that the report was true based on HaAretz's information. At that stage, the only one who described it as "reported" was Rabbi Rosenblum.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


130. Say it like it is!     3/19/09 - 3:04 AM
Yonith Kirschner - Beit Shemesh

I have long been aware of apartment owners being forced to dole out thousands of shekels for the destruction of trash cans by hooligans who dress like Charedim. I also knew that our image from these hooligans was constantly being tarnished. I had not been aware of the violence. Yasher Koach to Rabbi Horowitz for opening our eyes and not sweeping under the carpet this painful issue.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


131. sorry, forgot something     3/19/09 - 3:06 AM
Chaya - EY

After re-reading my first comment, I realized that my statement that violence is inexcusable in most cases was probably unclear. By "in most cases", I was referring to incidences of recalcitrant husbands who continually refuse to grant their wives a get, etc. Not to incidences of sitting in the men's side of the bus, etc.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


132. From Where Does It All Stem?     3/19/09 - 5:53 AM
Shlomo - Ramat Bet Shemesh

Great article Rabbi Horowitz!

As a Charedi man living in EY I would like to address all of those who say that it's just a few "zealots" or that there is no backing from Rabbonim,etc.

I live in Ramat Bet Shemesh Alef,a diverse community consisting of Charedim,Chadarlim,Chiloni and Dati Leumi.There are Americans,Israelis,French,South Africans,Brits and Russians.

When I first moved here there was an atmosphere of peaceful cooperation among all groups. Today that has changed.

Much of this comes from an attitude of "better than thou" that filters down to (even) Anglo Charedi children.

These kids are more critical of how others dress (I'm speaking of shirt color not tznius issues). They scoff at where other kids go to school and which hashgochos they eat. This elitist attitude even affects local tzedaka organziations in where one is considered "more charedi" than another and thus "better". This ridiculous division is even promoted by certain rabbonim.

We must be careful of the attitudes that we relay to our children.

We must be tolerant and respectful of everyone even if we may have a different hashkofic outlook.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


133. Yasher Koach!     3/19/09 - 9:01 AM
Eliezer - Toronto

Rabbi Horowitz,

I fully support your stand!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


134. Where are the Rabbis?     3/19/09 - 9:07 AM
Nechama - NJ

I agreed with your article. When I first read of this story I was shocked & ashamed. I would expect such behavior from the mullahs in Iran & Saudi Arabia - not from orthodox Jews. But the one thing your article does not state is a demand of their rabbis to say in the strongest way possible that this behavior is NOT acceptable. They could have tried to approach her peacefully, to talk to her. But if that failed VIOLENCE IS NEVER THE ANSWER.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


135. Counterforce     3/19/09 - 10:00 AM
Anon1

It seems elementary that the decent Chareidi elements need their own patrols to restore order in the wild east. The lawless don't respect what any Rav says to stop them.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


136. Rav Shimon Scwab's Response     3/19/09 - 11:51 AM
KAJ Secretary

Rav Shimon Schwab zt"l was asked about freeing criminals from jail, is this called pidyon shevuyim or not?

He said "I don't understand how anyone can see criminals in jail as being in the category of shivuyim. It wasn't like they didnt put themselves there. They chose to break the law and now they are paying the price.

It is nothing less than a chillul HaShem to have Jews agitating to free obvious criminals, like they don't deserve punishment. People will say "see these Jews are lawbreakers and don't respect the law of the land." We have enough trouble already.

My view is that we should help them, see to their needs, make sure they have what they need in prison. But not try to get them out."


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


137.     3/19/09 - 12:31 PM
Bella Tsibushkin

To Chaya:

You write that "I see no reason in the world why pictures of women should be allowed in periodicals that are meant for the entire family. I am not alone, either."

It seems to me that the basis of our life is the Halocha, not our own understanding of right and wrong. And it is hard for me to believe that the Halocha changed in this regard in the last 10 years or so (just look in the Artscroll biographies of Rav Kamenetzky, zt"l or Rav Feinstein, zt"l).

I do not think changing chumras into "halocha miSinai" is the way to go.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


138. Ahavas Yisroel Chaburah     3/19/09 - 12:44 PM
Betty Cherniak - Baltimore

In the spirit of the principle, "Be the change you want to see," everyone should consider joining or starting an Ahavas Yisroel Chaburah. These groups have formed and are continuing to form at a brisk pace in Israel and the U.S.; this is a grassroots method to counteract violence of all kinds by encouraging acts of lovingkindness among Jews. Also, the web sites A Daily Dose of Kindness and A Tradition of Kindness (both .org) encourage acts of kindness to counteract terrorism. This is a good place to start to reverse the worldwide trend toward extremism and violence in the name of religion.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


139.     3/19/09 - 1:11 PM
Anonymous

"And how many calls do you think the police ever got?"

That depends how many sensible people are listening to psak to turn the thugs over to police.

"One rav making a general statement not directed at any particular person or group is really not very impressive in my opinion."

Mr. Tam, please get your facts straight. Rav Sternbuch is not some no name shul rabbi and he represents the Badatz of the Eidah Charedis who are as frum as they come. His words were specifically aimed at this violent group and inclusive of anyone else who acts in the same manner. He also asked Rav Doniel Eidensohn to publicize his psak on the internet. You must be REALLY hard to impress, sir.

"How many schools were called up demanding that they not allow the children of these people into their classrooms?"

Penalizing the children is not so simple even though it's done for other things.

"How many institutions were told that donors would withhold support if no substantial action was taken?"

There is perhaps one chassidus involved with them and they have their own means of support.

"How many shidduchim were broken off because they were related to these kind of people?"

I'm sure plenty of families never got involved with such shidduchim in the first place.

"How many kids were kicked out of yeshiva for participating in such behaviors?"

I don't believe that any yeshiva "kids" are involved with these patrols.

"How many roshei yeshiva were told that they are not welcome to speak at an event if they did not do something about these issues?"

A certain rosh yeshiva in Brooklyn who is harboring an accused molester had to cancel an appearance in Miami when he learned the baal habatim would grill him about it.

"How many people came to R' Elyashuv telling him that his name is being used to promote stupidities"

Rav Elyashev is surrounded by elements who don't let everyone in and are part of the problem.

"How many boycotts were held?"

It's only a few hundred families who partake in a certain "fresser convention".

"How many yimei tefila were there?"

Not enough.

"How many protests held?"

More than you think but not enough.

"How many kol koreis?"

This is indeed a tayna.

"We need to ask ourselves, how much real action has the chareidi public really demanded be done about these sort of things?"

So now your complaint is against the oylam goylem. And they are exactly that!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


140. 141     3/19/09 - 2:13 PM
anonymousfornow

What you have to say is very heartening. I look forwarding to Rav Shternbuch's words being publicized on internet news sources, but the one Jewish source I frequent has not had anything as of yet. (I haven't been on line for a few hours and this site was my first stop, so maybe I'm in for a surprise.)


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


141. Balance ? (Responding to #120)     3/19/09 - 3:38 PM
Shades of Grey

"A clear path can be traced from the extreme ideas that are taught in many mainstream yeshivas, to the community policies that have become more and more established, such as crazy levels of tznius (separate buses, separate streets, separate store hours, etc.), to not allowing pictures of modestly dressed women in periodicals…"

I would love to hear some qualified person address this in a mature, but respectful way.

On the one hand, there is a breakdown in the secular world in modesty which affects even frum society. The thinking, apparently, is that we need to go to the opposite extreme, to a small degree.

I even heard this concept in a speech from a RIETS rosh yeshivah who is not known as an "extremist", so perhaps there is wisdom in it even for "moderates". In addition, I believe in respecting ALL rabbonim-- no matter what their attitude is on these matters--even those with Satmar/Edah Hacharedis views on Tzniyus.

On the other hand, I understand what is bothering some people. For example, when it was announced that a non-Chasidic, American Torah community was thinking of implementing a system whereby the husband of a woman who didn't dress appropriately would receive a call from a Vaad, I grew worried. Someone put this in perspective to me, that this was only for the particular community, and that people there are okay with these type of policies.

The only thing I would add is that it is parent's responsibility to assure that their children grow up with a healthy, Torah- appropriate attitude which could balance the increased vigilance in these matters(eg, I recently saw a booklet circulated with Haskamos, directed at yeshiva Bachurim, but this booklet would perhaps need parental guidance). Perhaps the community needs to provide advice for parents in these matters--I hope that maturing children's health is on the community's radar screen, and not just Tzniyus!

Finally, Rabbi Avi Shafran wrote in the Jewish Week("A Matter of Orthodox Abuse") that "a Torah-observant life does not lead to aberrant behavior; it helps prevent it". I agree with this because indeed "deracheha darchei noam", and this is axiomatic(and could probably be empirically demonstrated as well). But this doesn't mean that the opposite isn't also a concern, namely, that we don't have to be concerned with nurturing our children's health. As above, perhaps parents need advice or training.

Just a thought.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


142. "Doing 'the right thing?!'"     3/19/09 - 4:28 PM
Yoel B

Lastly, is anyone taking care of Elchanan Buzaglo's family? Their breadwinner is out of action for the next four years! All they know is that Abba was out there doing "the right thing," now he's in jail, they're suffering, no one cares, and everyone's calling him a criminal! Helping them would be true ahavas chinam.

If they are being taught -- by "religious" people, R"L that "Abba was out there doing the right thing and that's why he's in jail" better such "religious" people should be in bikinis on the beach than dressed to look religious.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


143. continued     3/19/09 - 4:29 PM
Yoel B

Yes, keep the family from destitution, but part of the chesed must be to find a way so that the children don't follow their father's wicked ways.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


144. TO 144     3/19/09 - 4:58 PM
Rav - Chicago

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for your well written plea to stop Jewish criminal behavior.

In situations of criminal activity where the spouse and children BENEFITTED from the crime, they should SUFFER because of the crime as well.

The lesson we show our kids is "Nu, do the crime and we'll bail you out with pidyon shevuyim. We'll support your family while you cool your heals. It's nisht azoi geferlach". Pidyon shevuyim is only in extenuating circumstances, certainly not to premeditated violent criminal activity or threats.

By having misplaced pity we encourage criminality to continue. Hamerachem Al Ha'Achzorim Sofo Le'Achzer Al Harachmonim. Plus, what message is being sent to the rest of the world?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


145. RE: 146     3/19/09 - 5:24 PM
Yoel B

See post #71, which is what I was responding to. I hope I'm reading it wrong, but I'm not sure that "Abba was out there doing the right thing" was sarcastic; at best it was unclear and I was trying to make a similar point to yours; I guess I too was unclear.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


146. I support you all the way     3/19/09 - 5:42 PM
Hanan Druker - Los Angeles - immorta7@yahoo.com


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


147.     3/19/09 - 5:58 PM
Anonymous

"I look forwarding to Rav Shternbuch's words being publicized on internet news sources, but the one Jewish source I frequent has not had anything as of yet."

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/

This is where Rav Eidensohn publicized R' Moishe Sternbuch's psak some time ago. You will not see it on some other websites for various reasons. YWN did not mention because it is not politically correct according to the elements he kowtows to. I will guess that VIN did not mention it because there are forces he is afraid of that would try to harm him (he sometimes also removes existing posts for the same reason).

The only other websites I know of that excerpted it were those of R' Yudel Shain in Lakewood and Feivy Mendlowitz (grandson of R' Shraga Feivel z"l)


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


148.     3/19/09 - 7:09 PM
Yakov Ish Tam

> Someone put this in perspective to me, that this was only for the particular community, and that people there are okay with these type of policies.

Guess what? When the separate buses started they said the same thing. It always starts out like that. But gradually it spreads further, and people start to see it as a standard that everyone has to maintain, and before you know it, you have people being beaten on buses because they aren't keeping to the standard. Same thing with stores in Beit Shemesh which were forced to have separate hours. It started as "just for the people who want it", and then eventually it reaches a point that if you don't keep to it, you're a threat to the community's frumkeit!

This is exactly what I mean by the community being complicit in these extremes reaching the point they do. At first you just brush it off with an excuse like "it's only a few people, what's the harm?" or "it's only for a specific community", etc. but then when you start getting funny looks from your neighbors for not following it (or maybe when your kids aren't allowed into a school because you don't follow it) then you feel compelled to go along with it too. And before you know it, it's so entrenched in the community as a norm that people feel they have a right to resort to extreme measures to stop those who violate the standard.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


149. To # 150     3/19/09 - 8:34 PM
Shades of Grey

"This is exactly what I mean by the community being complicit in these extremes reaching the point they do. At first you just brush it off with an excuse like "it's only a few people, what's the harm?" or "it's only for a specific community"

There are three issues. One is whether the entire community does enough to protest and distance itself from an act of violence.

The second is whether a community can establish, in practice, higher standards without leading to inappropriate extremism.

The third, is whether one can trust that Community A's standards of Tzniyus and means of enforcement will not affect Community B.

Regarding the first issue, I can understand your point if you argue that there is not a strong enough protest.

However if there was a strong protest, there would be no possibility of arguing for a nexus between communal support of Mehadrin buses and violence against women. Of course, anyone who is an insider to the Israeli Charedi community (or even an objective outsider), knows that the vast majority do not support the violence of the crazies (who even burned a Rosh Yeshiva wife's store), whether or not you feel they have protested enough.

Regarding the third issue, it's a matter of trust. People trusted, for example, that the Concert Ban in Israel would not come to America. However, that trust was let down. However, the trust can be restored, if one realizes that there are inherent differences between communities which can't be breached without the communities losing their identity. That's why the Lipa ban failed(besides that rabbonim were mislead).

Similarly, years ago I heard a speaker say that a mother should not praise a daughter for her looks so she shouldn't over-value this. I had, also in the past, read of a Charedi educator who felt it appropriate for female staff members of the school to do this at times, because after all, a child's self-esteem could be at stake in certain cases (e.g., acne). I discussed my concerns with a sensible female family member, who told me if you spoke privately with the speaker (whose advice I still greatly respected), he would certainly agree that there are ways and cases where it is appropriate.

Is there a concern that some less sophisticated people would hear the speech and start quoting to you in a blanket manner that "it's against daas Torah to give a compliment to your daughter"? Perhaps. But I think that you can trust that rabbonim and a sizeable part of the lay community realize that people, communities, and cases are different.

Therefore, I am less concerned with your point of chumras spreading from Community A to Community B in all cases, without regard for differences of communal makeup. Of course, if Community A starts a practice which can be adopted universally, such as creating a consumer market and demand for looser fitted garments, that would be a psoitive thing if universally adopted.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


150. ???? ???? ???? ?????     3/19/09 - 9:13 PM
Yoel B

Doesn't that sound sort of like how bans and "community enforcers" get going?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


151.     3/19/09 - 10:01 PM
Yakov I. Tam

> However if there was a strong protest, there would be no possibility of arguing for a nexus between communal support of Mehadrin buses and violence against women.

Can you please explain this statement more clearly? I am unable to decipher what you're meaning to say.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


152. RE: 152, 153     3/19/09 - 10:47 PM
Anonymous

152 should be headed "v'Datei Hamelekh einam 'osim."

I think that 153 means that if there were large scale chareidi protests against the "modesty" thugs people wouldn't be so likely to associate thuggery with Mehadrin buses (provided of course there isn't more thuggery on the buses, or, worse, on non-Mehadrin buses by people using violence to try to enforce separation of men and women.)


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


153.     3/20/09 - 7:21 AM
Anonymous

Much has been posted on this thead highlighting a conflict between maintaining and raising communal religious standards vs the dangers of generating animosity and even violence in the process.

My observation is that this tension is fueled almost entirely by the role of ego that quietly worms its way into the equation. On a subconscious level, the arguments about religious standards are often about "I am right; MY derech is right; my neighbor can't be right bec that would mean I am wrong." The stance we take on the issues is often about defining OURSELVES and our group identity rather than clarifying the halacha and the will of Hashem.

Bais Shammai and Bais Hillel disagreed vehemently about serious inyanei halacha and yet loved one another and allowed their children to marry one another with great simcha. By contrast, egocentric motivations are betrayed by the anger, kanaus, and divisiveness which erupt in the course of our discourse about religious topics. When this happens, it appears that we are using religion as an instrument to serve egotistic interests such as defining ourselves, asserting ourselves, and forging a group identity. When it becomes about us, there is little room left for Hashem in the picture.

What does Hashem want??

Every first-grader can reference the midrash explaining why dor hamabol was destroyed while dor migdal babel WHO SOUGHT TO DEFY HASHEM HIMSELF (sounds like a pretty serious aveira...)was spared, and the answer lies in the priority of mitzvos bein adam lachaveiro. It is crystal clear from so many of our mekoros that Hashem's top priority is our ahavas Yisroel. So,if we were genuinely focused on retzon Hashem rather than hindered by the concerns of our egos, our disagreements would be handled much differently (maybe someting like the collaborative problem solving model often referenced in the parenting forum on this site). We would more easily tolerate alternative derachim bec we wouldn't feel personally threatened. Violence would be reduced because the need to assert and impose our personal positions would be eliminated.

In a word, when the discourse becomes about Hashem rather than about ourseves, we transform the discussion into a machlokes leshem shamayim and elevate ourselves in the process. If we do this enough,perhaps we may merit to see the day when the need for disagreement is eliminated by the restoration of the clear Voice of dvar Hashem miYeushalayim.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


154.     3/20/09 - 8:15 AM
Amol gelernt in Brisk

Regarding the "fresser convention" that someone mentioned, here's how R' Avrom Yehoshua Soloveitchik once summed it up in Chumash shiur: "Meh zitzt dort & meh shtupt zich fun kol minay taanugay oylam hazeh & tzemittn, meh hert eppiss a vort in lernen"

The event is also controlled with an iron fist and they would never let even choshuve roshei yeshiva talk about problems facing the klal, the way they really are. Just like their magazine doesn't tell the truth when they write about abuse. They got some big shot to write an article who knew that if he told the truth about abuse, his $330,000 annual salary with a haymishe moysed would be in jeopardy.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


155.     3/20/09 - 8:40 AM
Hershey Herskovits - Monroe, NY - monroe2009@gmail.com

I strongly agree with the perspective expressed in this column. We shouldn’t allow Hareidi Judaism to follow the precedent set by Islamic Fundamentalism whereby the violent element hijacked the hearts and minds of the masses. The ways of Torah are darkai noam and we the Am-HaSefer. The playfield between observant and non-observant should be intellectual. I do not understand, however, why the Sadducee bashing was necessary here. For the record, Sadducees did not “from their own cult.” The Sadducees were a valid religious group, had the sympathy of the royal court, and was the mainstream denomination at their peak times. Of course their penal code included chopping off limbs, but that’s because, according to their interpretation, the Torah commanded doing so. They were no more violent than the Pharisees who performed executions.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


156. # 155     3/20/09 - 9:08 AM
Shades of Grey

"The stance we take on the issues is often about defining OURSELVES and our group identity rather than clarifying the halacha and the will of Hashem...In a word, when the discourse becomes about Hashem rather than about ourseves, we transform the discussion into a machlokes leshem shamayim and elevate ourselves in the process"

I agree, that in the long run, statements such as "those crazy [fill in the blank]" are not helpful, although they feel very cathartic. I took care to make my own comments as least as divisive as possible (I don't know if I was successful,though :) )

However, the problem is not always "ourselves". There may be a reason why people feel that there is extremism in various Orthodox groups, more than there was before, and I don't think that they are hallucinating(elaborating will only cause more divisiveness).

Of course that's the challenge (I think it's min Hashomayim); after all, in any disagreement, each side says that it's not their own fault.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


157. Chumra of the Month     3/20/09 - 9:37 AM
Benzion Twerski

Every so often, we get to hear a new label for the era of today (a concept generally reserved for discussion about history). I’m not sure how others will label it, but I have heard the suggestion that we see today as the “Age of the “Chumra”. When the laughter decreases, and one has recovered from the searching for the “Chumra of the Month Club”, there is a phenomenon that we need to examine. I’m not a historian, nor have I studied anthropology, but here is my knee jerk reaction to the “chumra” phenomenon.

The size and variety of the frum community has grown dramatically. Communication has expanded exponentially, and the successes of kiruv have been remarkable. Among the many advances that have occurred within the Torah world, there is the trend to examine the mundane daily events for halachic implications. This is all occurring while the external goyishe world has lowered moral standards drastically. We have so much opportunity for growth, and the influences and forces to hold us back and drag us down create tremendous conflict for every one of us. Even those communities that tried to isolate themselves from this world have watched their successes in this regard dwindle.

The “chumra” may well represent another way in which we distance ourselves from the yetzer horo dominated world. I am not proclaiming chumros to be either good or bad. My observation is that they are a product of the other trends of our times.

Anything good can somehow be construed to be something other than what the Torah meant for it to be. This includes halacha. There is a concept of “Halacha v’ain morin kain”, there are halachos that were not accepted as psak, such as most instances of Beis Shamai (will become halacha after the coming of Moshiach), and there are instances of misapplication of halachos.

I was amused when my grandson (age 6) went to shul with his father, and refused to say the second mizmor of Kabolas Shabbos. He explained that it was printed in a smaller font, which means it is for women to say, not men. (The brocho of Shelo osani isho is in large print and She’osani kirtzono in a smaller font.) Misapplication of a rule.

There is nothing wrong in establishing chumros in tznius. The problems are that one is free to accept chumros for himself, without the right to impose them on others. If Gedolei Yisroel convened and established standards for the klal, that would be reasonable. Meanwhile, halacha and chumroh are not synonymous. To be a kano’i for halacha also needs to have guidelines, and violence is certainly way out of the category of darchei no’am.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


158. signatures     3/20/09 - 10:15 AM
Anonymous

Rabbi Horowitz, while your intentions are commendable and your heart is in the right place, in the end this is an absurd excersize in futility. The names that count and which should be on a Kol Korei explicitly denouncing this hooliganism, will not be posted on your blog site. Some of these problems which we could call Middle Eastern terror have been imported here to the USA. Here is a suggested short list of names that need to sign on to your protest against run a muck Kannaos. Eretz Yisroel 1. Rav Elyashiv 2. Rav Chaim Kaniyevsky 3. All the various Rabbonim who are well advertized on the Kupat Hair and Vadd Harrobonim Tzedaka request pamphlets. America 1.Rav Aron Shechter 2.Rav Yisroel Belsky 3.Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky 4.Rav Dovid Feinstein 5.Novominsker Rebbe 6.Rav Avroham Schor 7.Rav Malkiel Kotler We could go on but I think people get the point. I do not have the connections with any of the above mentioned rabbis to make this happen, but maybe some of the Askonim could write up a proclamation and take it around for signatures.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


159. Shades of Grey     3/20/09 - 11:37 AM
Anonymous

You are correct that extremism is definitely on the rise and certainly this is not our hallucination. This phenomenon, by the way, is not limited to orthodox Judaism, as fundamentalism has expanded worldwide and the resulting specter of terrorism threatens every race and creed of our day. I think a more global examination of extremism would help elucidate the concerns within our own community and i wonder if anyone here has thoughts to share from this perspective.

You are also correct that those of us affected by the extremism of others, as when, for example, fathers who work cannot gain entry into schools for their children, have legitimate gripes that are not rooted in insecurity. But so often, resentment of chareidim who may choose to lead a more extreme lifestyle is just part of a defensive reaction; it's almost as though we interpret someone else's greater stringency as a judgment against our own relative leniency. We don't wish to lead that same extreme lifestyle but we still crave validation and respect for our own choices. And so an entire dynamic of anxiety over someone else's chumros unfolds--even if that someone else has not actually judged us in a negative light. At the core, lots of the arguments--on both sides-- are really just an internal cry: "I am frum; i am good; please validate and resect my identity!"

Hope i articulated myself clearly...Please tell me what you think. Gut Shabbos!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


160. Rabbi Twerski: Chumrah of the Month     3/20/09 - 12:10 PM
Anonymous

I share your observation that chumros "represent another way in which we distance ourselves from the yetzer horo dominated world"--an attempt to isolate ourselves in order to protect our spirituality. I certainly have no opposition to self-imposed chumros, particulary those in the area of bein adam lachaveiro, but i happen to think our strategy is a bit misguided.

Yes the world is steeped in moral depravity, but i remain unconvinced that our most pressing dangers stem from the external world. What i have heard and read repeatedly, particularly on this site, is that ruchnius is challenged by parents who are not respectful of their own children, who don't accept them, who don't speak to them nicely. Ruchnius is threatened by the infrastructure of our own system: programs that don't address the real needs of our children, mechanchim who abuse and molest talmidim. Spiritual growth is thwarted by an excessive concern with materialism, pressures to lead upscale lifestyles and make elaborate simchas and that would horrify and confuse the majority of members of the terrible, depraved outside world.

Our efforts to design chumros to fence us in from external influences drain our attention and energy away fom the more critical task of fortifying who we are and addressing the internal problems that REALLY threaten the way the next generation will practice their Yiddishkeit.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


161. Posting comments on this thread     3/20/09 - 12:57 PM
Yakov Horowitz - rabbihorowitz@rabbihorowitz.com

Dear Readers: I would like to express my deep gratitude to those who contributed to the Darchei Noam Dinner -- all the more so, in these trying times. May Hashem bless you as only He can with all the brachos reserved for supporters of Torah.

Please take a moment and post your name if you support the thoughts expressed in this essay. (Your real name, please. I posted mine, after all) the city where you live, and your email address. It is my hope that there will be a significant response -- enough to make the Kiddush Hashem that is so long overdue.

As the host of this site, I respectfully ask you not to use this forum and thread to write things that are disrespectful to our gedolim shlita. Feel free to disagree with my writing in your comments, but please be restrained in your comments as far as our rabbonim and gedolim are concerned.

Thank you.

Yakov


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


162.     3/20/09 - 3:18 PM
Anonymous

Rabbi Horowitz, I am sorry if I unsettled you with the post you deleted (that did not specify the names of the rabbonim behind those avlos) and please understand that when I started to learn of these things I could not believe it whatsoever. When I received various pieces of evidence I was shaken to the core and I have since spoken to various roshei yeshiva & rabbonim who feel the same betrayal and disgust that I do.

I consider myself a talmid in hashkofo of R' Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz ztl who said where rabbonim create chilul Hashem, we do not give them kovod. In the yeridas hadoros, we nebich have rabbonim who know a lot of learning but who are capable of corruption. This is the biggest part of the problem we face and even in his day, RSFM fought very shtark against it.

If we continue to pretend that no one can do an avlah because he wears a langa rekel and up hat, the abuses will continue.

Hashem yishmerainu.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


163. Question     3/20/09 - 3:36 PM
Anonymous

What is going to be done with all these names? Will they be incorporate into some sort of petition? To whom?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


164.     3/21/09 - 9:08 PM
Hershey Herskovits - Monroe, NY - monroe2009@gmail.com

Rabbi Horowitz, I stand by my comment (#157) that violence of any sort is immoral and should be condemned. However, I wonder what you make of the story (Brochos 20:a) about Rav Adda Bar Ahava who stripped off an immodest coat from a woman he thought was Jewish. I realize this is a far cry from a brutal beating, but violent nonetheless. Where do we set the borderline?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


165. Support     3/21/09 - 11:05 PM
Zalman Einhorn - Monsey N.Y.

Rabbi Horowitz, thank you for taking the lead and trying to retain the sanity in Yiddishkeit.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


166. re kanaus in gemara     3/22/09 - 7:25 AM
anonymousfornow

The problem is that we are not seeing the Rav Addas doing this, but the rabble rousers and hamon am. (I would hate to think they are surrogates for the gedolim.) Let's not try this trick at home, kids.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


167. Sorry to say....     3/22/09 - 12:27 PM
Rena Freedenberg - Beitar Illit

Yasher koach to you Rabbi Horowitz for airing your views publicly.

Unfortunately, even though I and most English-speaking residents of Eretz HaKodesh agree with you, Israeli rabbonim and Israeli society does not. When there was a bloody, violent pogrom that was arranged for a leil Shabbat a few years ago in Beitar against boys who did not dress in chareidi lavush, it was the mara d'atra [well, actually, both of them - Ashkenazi and Sefardi] who stood behind it and were egging the rioters on. They forbade the security forces from calling the police and there were several hundred men armed with metal pipes, sticks, and more to cause bloodshed on Shabbos, no less. This is how chinuch is done here in Eretz HaKodesh...

Nothing will change as long as it is only those of us brought up in chu"l that protest this type of "education" of neighbors we don't want to deal with.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


168. #161, # 170     3/22/09 - 1:03 PM
Shades of Grey

To #161,

At the core, lots of the arguments--on both sides-- are really just an internal cry: "I am frum; i am good; please validate and resect my identity!"

This makes sense to me.

To #170,

"Nothing will change as long as it is only those of us brought up in chu"l that protest this type of "education" of neighbors we don't want to deal with. "

I hear your point. Personally, I like to hear from people like Jonathan Rosenblum, who believe in the Charedi world, yet are also self-critical.

Here is quote from Emily Zola. Perhaps it's sharp, but I think of it from time to time:

"When truth is buried in the earth, it accumulates there, and assumes so mighty an explosive power that, on the day it bursts forth, it hurls everything into the air. We shall see if they [the suppressers of truth] have not just made preparations for the most resounding of disasters yet to come."

What I take out from this quote is NOT negativity, but rather, that that it is precisely a strong belief in the truth and beauty of Charedi values and lifestyle that make it axiomatic that any unfair practices will eventually be corrected. Perhaps it will take time because of complex situations, but only truth and "deracha darchei noam" will prevail. In the meantime, the frustrated individual can ask himself how G-d would want him, as an individual, to act productively and according to Torah values in the current situation.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


169.     3/22/09 - 5:35 PM
Anonymous

Your real name, please. I posted mine, after all

Uh, yes, and it's your website, not ours. You obviously want publicity. Many of us do not.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


170.     3/22/09 - 9:39 PM
Chaim Eisenstein

Yasher Koach--for being clear and unequivocal. You are doing alot of good and please continue not to be influenced by social intimidation.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


171. The Saddest Part of the Tznius Squad Story     3/23/09 - 3:18 AM
Nama Frenkel - Jerusalem - nama.frenkel@gmail.com

When I came to live in Israel this past May, I had visited many times, but had spent most of my time with my children or at the usual places like the Kotel.

Now that I was here with more time, I ventured to Har HaZaisim on the Yartzeit of the Aruch Chaim. It's crowded and confusing and somehow I ended up in the men's section. I was physically afraid of what might happen to me, having read all the exaggerated coverage of the treatment of women at the wall etc.

Much to my surprise, I was treated exactly the way I would want my mother to be treated. I was politely told that this is the men's section in Yiddish, Hebrew and then with some coaching from friends in English. And that was it. They showed me the way to the women's section and went on with their business.

This has been true on buses and in crowds of all kinds. Most of the time Haredi men just sigh loudly if women are in the wrong place. Sometimes the women try to get the "lost" person in the right seat or spot.

These tznius patrol creeps obviously have leaders, but at the base of the whole thing they're bums. Frum men don't act like that. Frum men are not violent.

I think we project American male culture on them and assume that if you put a lot of men together they will automatically act like a mob.

while it happens, its so much the exception. I was shocked to see just how deeply my own prejudices run.

Israel in general does not foster violent men. The police, the soldiers and the security guards are such worlds apart from the bullies I remember in America.

Frankly, I favor vigalante action by women against these crazies, real violence by really tough, militarily trained women who would hurt and humiliate them in ways that they understand. I don't think there are that many and I think they'd give it up quickly if they faced actual personal reprisals. But since I have no training of this kind, I can only fantasize.

In the meantime, lets try to remember, Haredi men are gentle men in the truest sense of the word.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


172. Related Article at Yeshiva World News Web Site     3/23/09 - 7:03 AM
Related Article

http://theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/32088/Delinquent+Youths+Cause+Disturbances+&+Damage+in+Bnei+Brak+on+Shabbos.html


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


173. Another related post     3/23/09 - 8:36 AM
Anonymous

http://theunorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-other-hand.html


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


174. where are the reactions     3/23/09 - 9:37 AM
anonymousfornow

If indeed prominent rabbonim have issued statements and have urged dissemination, as a previous poster mentioned, why have the news outlets that covered the problem NOT carried these statements? I hate to ask this. I know that it will bring cynical (even if possibly true) answers. I wish that this were not so.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


175.     3/23/09 - 10:42 AM
Anonymous

"why have the news outlets that covered the problem NOT carried these statements?"

Many of the journalists either don't have access to the information or they are anti-religious and don't want to portray any charedi rabbonim fighting abuse.

The Awareness Center which is run by a secular Jewish lady, did post the psak from Rav Wosner's beis din, written by Dayan Sillman, that child molesters must be handed over to police as the horrible effect abuse leaves on children for the rest of their lives gives the molesters a din of rotzchim.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


176. Fully in support     3/23/09 - 10:59 AM
Michael Kopinsky - Philadelphia, PA - mkopinsky@gmail.com


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


177. Poskim of yesterday poskim of today     3/23/09 - 12:00 PM
Anonymous

Rabbi Horowitz, I understand your yearning for a more moderate Charedi posture vis a vis the world. Part of the problem is that Poskim from earlier times had a decidedly different Derech then Poskim of the present times. I recall a Psak from the Igros Moshe permitting the riding on a crowded subway car even though it would lead to touching of men and woman squished together in the car. Apparently that Psak would not be accepted by the Poskim mentioned in the article below who are mandating seperate seating on busses and linking the lack of seperate seating as the cause of bus bombings. It is not difficult to see how this approach in Halacha and the atmosphere it creates, can lead to the the types of incidents perpetrated by Buzaglo,the Vaad Hatzenius, and their ilk. There is also little question that what happens in Eretz Yisroel resonates here as well. In my mind there is a clear line that can be drawn from the leadership to these acts of violence. As you can see from the article, there is a Gvir and Gadol Power structure in place that dictates public policy for the rest of us. to pretend that change can come from the bottom in a grass roots kind of way, is misleading. "Members of the mehadrin bus vaad last week visited Gedolei Yisrael in Bnei Brak, stopping at Maran Rav Kanievsky Shlita, Maran Rav Edelstein Shlita and Maran Rav Karelitz Shlita. According to a HaMevaser report, they received the support of the gedolim for their ongoing efforts to increase the scope of mehadrin separate seating bus lines. Mention was made of the letter published in Elul 5753, some 2.5 weeks after the number 2 bus terror attack in which 22 people were murdered. It appears this is the impetus compelling the ongoing efforts to defy Egged and operate mehadrin service on this line, as was reported by YWN on Sunday (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=32103). After the rabbonim published the kol korei following the attack, appeals were made to Egged to open the rear door to at least permit men and women to use separate doors, but their pleas fell on deaf ears, prompting the establishment of the vaad some two years ago. Members of the vaad include Rav Yosef Chaim Kupshitz Shlita, Rav Yitzchak Yosef Shlita, Rav Dov Landau Shlita and Rav Menachem Mendel Fuchs Shlita. They met with representatives of Egged and the transportation ministry many times, towards establishing a mehadrin service on the number 2 line, traveling by many chareidi families to and from the Kosel and the chareidi areas of the capital. To date, Egged has not complied. A private service is operating a mehadrin service on that line today, free of charge, in compliance with ministry law which prohibits a ‘for fee’ service to compete with Egged on the line. The funds are presently coming from donations from givirim in Eretz Yisrael and abroad. Vaad members’ report that transportation ministry officials are seeking to pressure the bus company to halt the free service, threatening failure to comply will result in the ministry sending agents of the Internal Revenue Service to scrutinize the bus company’s books. In actuality, agents of the IRS have indeed already contacted company managers, in addition to ministry bus safety inspectors, who now wish to run a fine tooth comb over every bus to make certain they comply with all safety regulations. During their visit last Thursday to Bnei Brak, the rabbonim received brachos and Rav Kanievsky Shlita is quoted in the daily HaMevaser as stressing the absolute need for separation between men and women on the buses, praising the vaad for its efforts. These words were echoed by Maran Rav Edelstein Shlita and Rav Karelitz Shlita praised the vaad and took the time to receive a comprehensive update on their activities. Rav Karelitz explained the efforts to provide mehadrin service is in essence a battle with the yetzer hora (evil inclination) and therefore, we encounter much resistance and difficulty. The rabbonim state that despite the difficulties encountered, they plan to continue with the number 2 mehadrin alternative that began running last week. (Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)"


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


178. Mrs. H.     3/23/09 - 12:52 PM
Anonymous

It annoys me when Israeli rabbis mix in to our business here in America, expressing views about concerts or anything else (unless they're really not mixing in and it's only the "askanim" who quote them). We have rabbis of our own here.

Likewise, I have no interest in telling Israeli Knesset members what to do. Supposedly, the religious ones have their rabbis guiding them so what are you asking us to sign to - to pressure the rabbis? I think it's out of place. And the Knesset members are not my elected officials. I live in New York and didn't vote for them.

I think a petition like this might serve a purpose among Jews in Israel, but who in Israel is interested in a signature from Brooklyn?

Furthermore, here in the US we do not call ourselves chareidim. That's a term used in Israel and we don't need to import it, thank you. We have yeshivish people, Chassidishe people, modern Orthodox Jews, and just plain Jews.

You say that you propose that we don't remain silent. I haven't noticed that you have quoted having spoken this over with anybody. Now that Rabbi Pam is gone, who have you discussed this petition with? Would Rabbi Pam have recommended denouncing them in the media or would he have recommended not giving them any additional media coverage? I don't know.

Why do you think rabbis on location are not denouncing it? Have R' Elyashiv, R' Kanievsky, R' Scheinberg etc. condemned them? If not, how come? Because they don't think it's wise to do so? Don't you think you need to speak to a respected halachic authority over there to find out what the best course of action is? Can you do so and report back to us?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


179. USA Charedim?     3/23/09 - 1:54 PM
Shades of Grey

"Furthermore, here in the US we do not call ourselves chareidim. That's a term used in Israel and we don't need to import it, thank you. We have yeshivish people, Chassidishe people, modern Orthodox Jews, and just plain Jews."

Interesting point. Perhaps "Charedi" is used primarily when talking to the media, because it's much better than "Ultra-Orthodox".

The following is an interesting quote from a May, 1998 article in the New York Times about the “Yale Five” titled “Yeshivish at Yale”:

[One of the Yale plaintiffs], eschews both ''Modern'' and ''haredi'' for a term that might well describe all the plaintiffs. ''There is an expression floating around -- 'yeshivish,' '' says [the plaintiff], a 20-year-old freshman from New Haven. ''It doesn't exist in a dictionary. It's 'yeshiva' made into an adjective. And it connotes a level of observance, a way of thought, a type of dress.''

I personally dislike labeling other than "Shomer Torah U'mitzvos", but apparently when speaking to the media one needs to use them.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


180.     3/23/09 - 2:14 PM
sheep

Sorry, I have to agree with Mr. Ish Tam.

How can R' Horowitz complain that we need to overcome our silence, and that we should unequivocally speak out against these travesties when he himself won't directly speak out against the rabbonim who are keeping quiet about these things, and worse, who have been involved in cover-ups and other horrific crimes? Rabbi Horowitz, I genuinely think it's wonderful that you are doing the brave work you’re involved in, from parenting help to kids-at-risk to the molestation issue to the horrible violence in our kehila, giving advice and raising awareness of these issues, but when are you going to speak about the real underlying causes of these problems? I don’t entirely blame you for avoiding this, to be honest. I understand that if you were to say certain hard truths, many prominent people would be so upset that you could find yourself in big trouble. But if you, who has much respect and influence in the yeshivish world, are too afraid to directly speak out against the rabbonim, laypeople, and institutions who have been fostering an atmosphere that allows these horrible plagues to take root in our community, how can you expect me, just an average Joe Shmoe, to stand up against the powers that be? The popular charedi culture, yeshivas, rabbonim, frum media, etc. all support the ever growing chumra-chasing and isolationism which the commenter above referred to. If I were to express a dissenting opinion about any of the outrageous chumras I see around me, everyone would look at me like I’m crazy. Remember this line? "If you didn’t side with Bush... then you’re obviously supporting the terrorists!" In my world, it’s "If you don’t take on the crazy chumra or derisive attitude towards those not on our level of frumkeit... then you’re obviously not a proper ben torah." This is the world we live in. And the rabbonim that I know of seem to be in line with the community’s approach, choosing to keep silent for the most part and not really do anything about any of these serious problems facing klal yisroel.

So how can you blame me for doing the same thing as my rabbonim and gedolim do, which is to keep a low profile and not say anything which might get me in trouble? If even you are taking that route (not entirely, but in many ways you are), and not speaking out against the real causes of the problem, then how can you blame the rest of us for also keeping silent?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


181. 180 How Social Change Happens     3/23/09 - 2:31 PM
Anonymous

"to pretend that change can come from the bottom in a grass roots kind of way, is misleading..."

If you analyze how social change has been generated throughout history, the power of the masses cannot be underestimated. Think French Revolution, or even the subsequent revolutions in Germany and Hungary in the late 1840's. Think about the nationalist movement for Indian independence from British rule . Think about the American Revolution and the battle cry of the Declaration of Independence, "We the people..."

In all these cases,social transformation was shaped from the bottom up, rather than the top down. To underestimate the role of leadership, however,is also misleading. Almost every mass movement relies upon a charismatic leader to guide the course of change. The power of leaders, though, is conferred upon them by the grassroots who need to sense that the leader's vision resonates with their own ideals.

In other words,to a certain extent, we choose our own leaders. When the ideological gap between the masses and its leadership grows and breeds sufficient discontent, the grass-roots tend to gravitate toward new leaders, or to demand changes in current policy. This process of change may be painful and long, but it can be expedited in proportion to the number of people who support it.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


182. leaders     3/23/09 - 2:40 PM
Anonymous

Almost every mass movement relies upon a charismatic leader to guide the course of change. The power of leaders, though, is conferred upon them by the grassroots who need to sense that the leader's vision resonates with their own ideals.

How does this apply to Judaism? Did Moshe Rabeinu's power derive from the people? To a certain extent yes, because "ein melech b'lo am" (there is no king without a people) but we have to beware the pathetic situation in which "pnei ha'dor k'pnei ha'kelev" (the face of the generation is like the face of a dog) - when leaders keep turning back to see what the people want, like a dog turning back to see if his master is following him. In that case, they aren't leaders. They are followers and the people become the leaders.

I don't have respect for Jewish leaders who need a petition from me to instruct them in how to lead. If they aren't leading, they aren't leaders!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


183.     3/23/09 - 3:46 PM
Jer

To Commenter 131:

"And when the majority of a population in a community or city feels the same way, then if one doesn't but wants to live in the community anyway - for whatever reason - then it is not appropriate to do what one wants regardless of the standards that the community has accepted upon itself. If one feels that separate buses are a crazy level of tznius and one lives within a community that supports separate buses, then one has to make a decision - either live with it or move. "

Exactly what the Christians used to say, on a national level, before they expelled us time and time again. Congratulations.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


184. 185Leaders     3/23/09 - 3:47 PM
Anonymous

This applies to Judaism, because Jews are as human as anyone and their dynamics of social behavior share many common elements with non-Jews. Obviously, this does not conflict with our commitment to a higher standard of behavior and, of course, to belief in a Higher Power.

I'm not sure how to respond with certainty to your point about Moshe Rabbeinu. Tzarich iyun; i need to mull it over and explore our mekoros. Surely, the hashgacha pratis through which Hashem grants appropriate leaders to every generation cannot be denied, especially a manhig who was av laneveim on the madrega of Moshe Rabbeinu. There were clearly times, however, when the Yidden rejected his leadership, just as there were times when they rejected the guidance of other neveim who were sent by Hashem to give tochachah.

I agree that the leadership itself, by definition, must come from the leaders, not from us little guys who tell them which petitions to sign. But when the hamon am are only willing to listen to an idea rubberstamped by certain signatures, who is determining which names count? We the people...


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


185. Exactly Right.     3/23/09 - 10:15 PM
Tayereh Baal Habos

>I don't have respect for Jewish leaders who need a petition from me to instruct them in how to lead. If they aren't leading, they aren't leaders!

Exactly right. If you don't respect some Jewish Leaders for whatever reason, you'll pick different ones.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


186. It Starts Right Here     3/23/09 - 11:08 PM
JN - NJ

Here's a good example, IMHO, of where the problem starts: I hate to break it to anyone, but for a great sector of the chareidi community in EY - both Chassidish AND Litvish - these are not crazy. I am thrilled that where I live there is a mehadrin setup on the inter-city buses, and I see no reason in the world why pictures of women should be allowed in periodicals that are meant for the entire family. I am not alone, either. And when the majority of a population in a community or city feels the same way, then if one doesn't but wants to live in the community anyway - for whatever reason - then it is not appropriate to do what one wants regardless of the standards that the community has accepted upon itself. If one feels that separate buses are a crazy level of tznius and one lives within a community that supports separate buses, then one has to make a decision - either live with it or move.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


187. 189     3/24/09 - 7:46 AM
Anonymous

You are so right--the post you quoted parallels some passages in Hitler's Mein Kampf. He also adds to these intolerant ideas that by "defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." The Vaad Hatznius and its fellow fanatics harbor similar delusions that their violence represents Hashem's will. Frightening.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


188. I agree w/R Horowitz.     3/24/09 - 8:23 AM
Dovid Komarov - Brooklyn,NY - gkomarov@yahoo.com

I learn in Chaim Berlin Kollel. I definitely agree with the above article.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


189. Thank You!     3/24/09 - 4:26 PM
joel levy - williamsburg, brooklyn NY


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


190. Hmm sounds strangely familiar     3/24/09 - 7:16 PM
Anonymous

From todays news. See end of article re. the muttawam - Islamic morality police. I think Reb Yaakov is on to something here. RIYADH (AFP) – Hardline Saudi clerics have called on the government to ban women from appearing on television and to prohibit their images in print media, which they called a sign of growing "deviant thought." In a letter to new Information Minister Abdul Aziz al-Khoja that appeared on websites this week, the 35 Islamic clerics also condemned the increase of music and dancing on television, as well as images of women in popular newspapers and magazines that they labelled "obscene." "Our faith in you is great to carry out media reform, for we have seen how perversity is rooted in the ministry of information and culture, on television, radio, in the press, literary clubs, and book fairs," the letter said. It cited an alleged plan to "westernise" Saudi women by "reducing their rights to a question of removing veils, wearing makeup and mixing with men." It added that the ministry had permitted the import of "obscene newspapers and magazines that are filled with deviant thought and pictures of beautiful women on its covers and inside." "There should be no Saudi woman on television, in any case," they said. "There is no doubt that this is religiously impermissible." The clerics, including justice officials and academics from a conservative Islamic university, cited several cabinet-endorsed orders and policies from years past which they said supported their argument. They appeared to be challenging a growing push for liberalisation of tough restrictions on women, including near-mandatory use of black, full-face veils, which are rooted in its ultra-conservative Wahhabi version of Islam. Both Saudi television and print media increasingly feature women, while Arabic-language magazines showing women in Western garb and makeup are also widely sold in the country. The letter came in the wake of an information ministry-sponsored book fair in Riyadh in early March at which religious conservatives complained that men and women were allowed to mix freely, and that some books on sale violated Islamic principles. The book fair was marred by the muttawam, or Islamic morality police, harassing a woman author promoting her book and trying to prevent men from obtaining her autograph.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


191. THE LAW, IS THE LAW......PERIOD     3/25/09 - 3:42 PM
Askan - Chicago

Rabboisai, it’s time to wake up!

It’s a chiyuv on parents to teach their children how to swim. Not for the exercise or entertainment, rather for the once in a lifetime chance that the child should fall into the deep water, and be in sakanah. Parents spend money on J’s or Y’s membership, and private lessons to make sure they are trained properly.

It’s also a responsibility to train children to prevent people from hurting them. Teach children to call 911 when a crime happens. Teach them the true halachos of Lashon Hara, which were designed to help the innocent NOT to cover for the guilty. Teach them that the government authorities are there to enforce laws, and this is the basis for one of the Seven Noachide Laws.

The law of the land must be respected, and every person’s individual rights exercised legally must be respected. It makes no difference if you prefer other people to do things your way, YOU are still bound by the law. If you commit a crime, you are punished to the maximum extent possible.

We are the Am Hanivchar a chosen people, NOT a band of marauding peasants. Rabbonim and “askonim” pressuring government officials or individuals to be lenient on criminals DOES NOT REPRESENT JUDAISM.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


192.     3/26/09 - 1:42 AM
How do I go off the derech?

After the chillul Hashem of seeing the New York Times equate the "officials of Orthodox Judaism" with the shitas of the Catholic Church on child sexual abuse, without ANY response from ANY frum organization to defend us, how can a person of good conscience stay frum? And then we expect our kids to do so? For waht reason? So they can all be molested like in Catholicism?

I'm done. Throwing in the yarmulka, so to speak. There is no rabbi alive today who will speak the truth. For them to quietly acquiesce to the characterization of our religion as being one that allows and protects child molestation just like in the Catholic Church....I mean what more do you need? What will it take for all of us to wake up? If the "gedolim" started human sacrifices (which in a way the victims of abuse are) would that be a call to action? If they literally came into our homes and raped our wives and children, would we then sense something was amiss? Or would we still chant "daas torah" "daad torah" like a mantra of brainless robots who would drink cyanide if our "leaders" told us to?

We must speak up as Rabbi Horowitz says, by voting with our feet and going off the derech with our kids. To what you may ask? How about modern orthodox? Or how about a new concept like "chareidi classic?" One in which molestation of children is not allowed, people have to act like human beings no matter how much torah they learn or how many tzitzis they wear, and individuals saying what they really think is encouraged?

Anyone know of a book, Off the Derech for Dummies? I don't know how to do it.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


193. Reaction to #195     3/26/09 - 8:37 AM
Benzion Twerski

While I feel the passion of #195, I object to a few of the statements.

There is a certain chilul Hashem in the NY Times reference to “officials of Orthodox Judaism”. However, this is the mission of that organization to do precisely that. They wouldn’t miss an opportunity, even if the actuality was something quite positive. Their most serious error here is that there is no such existence as “officials of Orthodox Judaism”. There are leaders and organizations, but there is no single unifying body, and there is no agency that is an “official” spokesman for Orthodox Judaism. That fact that any single entity makes a statement that seeks to protect its financial integrity at the expense of neshamos is reprehensible, and there is tough responsibility for this. I would never defend the anti-Jewish and anti-Orthodox positions of the NY Times. But their reference here is simply stupid, not evil.

There is also a suggestion, though most probably sarcastic and tongue-in-cheek, that we adults should go off the derech with our children. I do not consider anything in Yiddishkeit voting. I am solidly convinced that my obligations to shmiras Torah and mitzvos is my distinct obligation to Hashem, and it never will involve compromises or corner-cutting. If someone wishes to read statements into what I do, they assume full responsibility for accuracy. I prefer to be simple minded (“Keep it simple”), and I decide what is right and wrong by what HKB”H wants. At times, I am unable to find my way without guidance from daas Torah, and I will seek it. But to even fathom the idea that one should express rejection of the failure of the leadership to take positions that are valid and needed by “taking it out on G-d” is unacceptable. I am sure the commenter was being sarcastic, and the anger that underlies sarcasm is certainly understandable. We all feel it, long before the NY Times published their misperception about the frum community. But avodas Hashem is not subject to vote, not there to make statements, not there to please others. It is simply the mission of every human being to fulfill his/her mission of existence – do the ratzon Hashem.

I will also protest the attribution of the statement that I find offensive to Rabbi Horowitz.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


194. Reaction to 195     3/26/09 - 9:37 AM
Anonymous

"Their most serious error here is that there is no such existence as “officials of Orthodox Judaism”. There are leaders and organizations, but there is no single unifying body, and there is no agency that is an “official” spokesman for Orthodox Judaism. "

Actually the Agudas Yisroel is the closest thing to an Official Orthodox Organization and they have held hands with the Catholic Church for many years with regard to blocking crucial legislation that would help protect our children. This has been written about in many other publications besides the NYT. Only now, under immense pressure and at the expense of the thousands of children whose abuse could have been prevented by Agudas Yisroel doing the right thing, only now are they starting to "cave in" and entertain somekind of legislation.

With all do respect, I am surprised that you are pulling out the "ant-semetic" card. I did not expect it from you. Whether or not the NYT is anti-semetic, what they reported was accurate. Actually the reality of the situation is worse than what they reported.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


195.     3/26/09 - 10:30 AM
CALL TO ACTION

You are right Bentzion, thre is no official Orthodox stance. Yet, whenever the Orthodox Union goes out to help klal yisroel, another organization blocks their effort by claiming that THEY represent authentic Torah values.

Since THEY allegedly represent Torah, and the greatest sages of Torah GUIDE, INSTRUCT, AND MAKE DECISIONS for them, this organization is being called the representative of Judaism. So although this organization membership of paying ADULT memberes is closer to 600 not 600,000 as they try to misrepresent themselves, they are looked up to as the lamplighters of Orthodoxy.

Since THEY chose to put themselves in the spotlight, all attention is drawn to them. By saying that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS MORE CHASHUV THAN YOSSI WHO IS OFF THE DERECH SO HE HAS NO NE'EMANUS, that is a major chillul Hashem, and an indictment on this organization.

We must write to the New York Times, and government officials that this organization DOES NOT REPRESENT US.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


196. Who represents us?     3/26/09 - 2:32 PM
Anonymous

The unfortunate reality is that we don't get to decide who represents 'the real us' in the eyes of anyone but our own. Therefore, if we feel we are being misunderstood or misrepresented, it becomes incumbent upon us to demonstrate just whom we really are through our behavior, lifestyle, and responses to inappropriate actions.

While the bias of anti-semitism surely taints the perceptions of many, rather than deny all charges and argue that we are being 'misrepresented,' what we should really do is drop our defenses and ponder what we can possibly do to alter these misperceptions. I believe this falls under the responsibility of 'yehe shem shamayim misaheves al yadecha,' aka kiddush Hashem.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


197. Yashar kochecha     3/26/09 - 8:20 PM
Yaakov Schwartz - New york NY - tlat333@netscape.net

Its nice to finally hear someone publicly speaking out against this


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


198.     3/26/09 - 9:32 PM
Anonymous

In 2003, it was reported in the secular media Newsday, I believe, not the Times, that Agudas Yisroel was openly joining hands with the Catholics, Ymach Shmam, AGAINST every other religious group including the OU, Conservative and Reform, and protestant groups to stop the government from making clergy mandated reporters.

Firstly, according to Rav Elyashiv, EVERYONE is a mandated reporter lfiy halacha!

Secondly, the Aguda made the ultimate chillul hashem. Worse even than what these violent people have done in Israel. They said publicly that we have the right due to separation of Church and State to not report! To the objective reader that means only one thing: That just like in America Jews are free to practice their religion by perfomring milah, shechita, shabbos and kashrus, we are also free to practice our religion of molesting children and covering it up. That this is part of our religion! And in some ways it HAS indeed become part of our mesorah. Mesirah, Lashon Harah, Shidduchim, Rochmonus on the molesters, chilul hashem.

I am still waiting for the members of the "Yedie Esav" group to write to the NY Times explaining all of these reasons why we ARE for the Catholic side of the issue.

I think, despite the Yated's recent feeble attempt to close the barn door after the horse is already out, that the "bloggers" are right and we need the MOETZES to resign.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


199. Thank you Rabbi Horowitz     3/26/09 - 9:43 PM
Asher Lipner Ph.D.

As usual you say it like it is.

Question: You have often said that a major factor in the high number of teens at risk is the prevalence of child sexual abuse in our community.

Could the problem of molestation also lie at the heart of the antisocial violent behavior being displayed by young charedi "kannaim"? Some kids go off the derech, and some go off the deep end.

Either way, it is our community's continued refusal to stop the molesters among us that wreak havoc on so much of society. This insistence on keeping quiet can be seen everywhere, including the fact that only Rabbi Horowitz and not ONE other rabbi has yet to demand the extradition of Avraham Mondrowitz.

Is the cruelty we express in allowing this monster to escape real justice, really that much different than the cruelty of the attackers of defenseless women? One is a sin of comission and one is a sin of omission. But they both lead to innocent people having broken lives full of pain and suffering, all in the name of "Torah".


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


200. Dr. Lipner: Kanaus     3/26/09 - 10:04 PM
Anonymous

'Kanaus' is not a new briah, but it has definitely been on the rise worldwide. What we call kanaus, the secular world terms "fundamentalism," the most disturbing category of which is, of course, the violent sort.

I posed this question earlier--but no one responded: Have the causes of the recent global trend toward this sort of behavior been explored by the secular world in the psychological literature? Any studies out there show correlation between childhood experiences of abuse and zealous behavior? Moslems, Christians, and Jews all currently face the demon of fundamentalism; what common denominators have been identified?

Has anyone any thoughts to share about this issue as a global phenomenon? I believe a wider perspective would lead to a deeper understanding of our communal problems.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


201. Great Web Site for Charedi-Bashers     3/27/09 - 9:10 AM
Highly Recommended

http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

I understand that our distinguished host posts there occasionally. Apparently, nobody is perfect.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


202. I Agree with Commenter No. 204     3/27/09 - 9:21 AM
I Agree

This blog is becoming too much like that other one. We are straying from our own agenda: PARENTING!!!

As parents, we should strive to be exemplary role models for our children! What others do is irrelevant!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


203. Support for Rabbi Horowitz     3/27/09 - 9:21 AM
Yardena

Regarding #195: I was also a bit taken aback by this post until I realized that obviously s/he knows that at least one rabbi (Rabbi Horowitz) is speaking out publicly and when s/he advised going off the derech, "charedi classic" and "modern Orthodox" were mentioned, not a secular lifestyle. Obviously, there are other rabbis who have spoken out, too. Methinks it was partly tongue-in-cheek.

Regarding #203: I'd also like to second the request for illumination regarding the roots of fanatacism. Zealotry is also seen in non-religious movements such as environmentalism and animal rights, for example the animal rights activists who equate animal life with human life, or who would save a gorilla's life before a human's, and have resorted to violence against fellow humans to further their aims.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


204. 206, 205     3/27/09 - 10:36 AM
Anonymous

"Zealotry is also seen in non-religious movements"

Unless you are on the madrega of Pinchos HaCohen, there is absolutely nothing 'religious'about zealotry, even when practiced by religous movements. Kanaaim simply use religion as a guise for motivations of political power and as a 'playground' for playing out a host of unresolved psychological problems.

To 205 and others who argue that this discussion is unrelated to parenting, see Dr. Asher Lipner's comment above. Read between the lines: the way we raise our children and the relationship we forge with them is potentially THE determining factor in what sort of pple they will turn out to be. The abusers, molestors, and kanaaim in OUR kehillah kedosha may very well be direct products of how they were parented as children.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


205. Author 204 & 205     3/27/09 - 1:30 PM
Brilliant Observation - Chicago

The Haemtza blog author should be proud of following the Shvil Hayashar of his Rebbe, Rav Aron Soloveichik zt"l. As your behavior demonstrates, being affiliated with a kollel means NOTHING. Torah is belittled, and disgraced by acting like a mushchas.

We hear your pain. We understand you are frustrated that acting like a bulvan won't be tolerated any more. You delude yourself by thinking "Ain Od MilvadCHA", and "BishvilCHA Nivra Haolam". You have no sense of Noseh B'Ol Chaveiro. Your comments show clearly what a Rodef, and mushchas you are.

Learn the lesson from Bernie Madoff. No matter how great and special he thought he was, he went down hard. Realize already, NOBODY is such a "SPECIAL ASSET" that they can't be brought down.

Shame on you, shame on the kollel you affiliate with, and shame on the Rosh Kollel who still allows you to use the kollel name for your despicable behaviors.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


206. No. 208: Perfect Illustration of What I Said     3/27/09 - 1:54 PM
No. 205

FYI, I am a businessman who is Koveah Itim and was never a member of a Kollel. As a Talmid of both Rabbanim Soloveichik ZT"L -- Rav Yosef Dov ZT"L and Rav Aharon ZT"L -- I take issue with how name-dropper Harry desecrates my Rabeim ZT"L, who honored every fellow Jew and surely disapprove of his Chareidi-bashing. Unfortunately, this ....COM Web site is becoming like his.

As CHAZAL have taught us, "Al Tistakel BeKankan Ela BeMah SheYeish Bo..." The photo of a Charedi Jew on the home page does not make the comments posted here kosher.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


207.     3/27/09 - 5:03 PM
Yakov Ish Tam

> As parents, we should strive to be exemplary role models for our children! What others do is irrelevant!

No, it's not irrelevant! If other people in your community are behaving inappropriately, and you don't react to that, then you are sending a message to your children that such behavior is tolerated! You don't live in a vacuum. You identify as part of a community, right? You teach your children to look up to torah leaders, no? So how can you think it's irrelevant when the community that your children look to be a part of, and the leaders who they believe to be representatives of torah act so horribly?

The simple fact is that you yourself don't even believe what you wrote. Can you honestly claim that if someone with a big beard and payes started swearing in front of your children, you would just keep quiet and say, "What others do is irrelevant!" Of course not! You'd make it very clear to them that this person is doing something wrong and you don't want them to get the wrong idea from such a person acting like that.

The fact that people don't speak up and react strongly to problems like frum violence and molestation, and instead come up with excuses like, "What others do is irrelevant," is just a vivid demonstration of what they really think is important to impart to their children.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


208. Agree With No. 204, 205, & 209     3/29/09 - 1:50 AM
New To This Blog

Rav Horowitz's essays are excellent. However, the response comments vary.

Rav Horowitz: How can you allow automatic posting of comments without prior review? What Heter is there for probable Lashon HaRa and possible Hotzaat Shem Ra BaRabim?

Even R. Maryles censors all comments before publishing them?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


209. Could someone explain..     3/29/09 - 5:32 PM
Anonymous - bklyn

I have no reason, nor does rabbi horowitz, to accept these things al pi metzius. In principal, the issue should be dealt with without the emotional responses such as 'criminals!' and 'barbarians', and 'cowards', that I've seen here. If we accept that a non-tznius woman was beat up by men, we need to ask ourselves a few questions before jumping the gun. This is only hypothetical, as I have no idea if the woman was dressed pritzusdig, or if these men were just paid off to beat up a truly innocent woman, or whatever, so let's leave the reality aspect of the incidnt alone rfor a second, and try to get some understanding, rationally, without screaming names and curses at violence, when ignoring the other issues. Tznius, is just as bad, actually, worse than hurting someoen physically - the rule is gadol hamachtio yoser min hahorgo - one who makes others sin is worse than one who murders. If it is true that this woman was a prutzah, then it can be argued that she must be stopped from hurting others - obviously, manhandling her in the way the reporters say she did is unacceptable, but for instance, having a bunch of women stand outside her house not letting her go out in public would have sufficed. Although the secularists would have reacted the exact same way, since it violates their notions of 'freedom', whcih certainly do not reflect the torah's opinion. Please understand I am NOT advocating violence, I simply want to consider both sides of the issue without jumping the gun.

Why is it that when dealing with two lavin, i.e., beating someone, and violating halachos of tznius befarhesyah, both involving the hurting of A. the neshoma of the do-er, and B. the neshomos of those who are affected by the perpetrator's actions. In the case of the pritzus, nobody has said she was a criminal - why? because it is not against secular law, israeli or american, to be immodest. I feel this is a chillul hashem in its own right. the media says she 'decided to leave the community', which in general means, she was a walking micshol who robbed men of their kedushah(I am not defending the violence, it is surely wrong, but as we do in gemora all the time, almost in every sugyah in dinei arayos, we must evaluate things with sechel yosher, and not jump on our emotions. 'Habah al pachus migimel shanim' is child abuse no doubt, but it is an issue of ona'ah separate from the point of the sugya, so to bring that up would be irrelavent - same thing here, we know there was violance, but what about her own culpability? Yes, a woman was injured - wrongfully so, but can we honestly look at what she did and call her innocent(hypothetically, if she was indeed being oiver on preitzus halachos)?

It would then seem, that she herself was also oiver on a chillul hashem(a more halachikally correct one, as her alleged pritzus was done in the presence of 10 yideen for sure, as opposed to the alleged beating, which was not), if this is so, how come no one, not a single commentator, has spoken about this? why should we believe one half of the story(the beating) and not the other half(the pritzus). It's a sad thing we need to think this way, but emes demands it - reb yaakov should have explained the torah position on pritzus in such a secular paper in some vein, so as not so make her look like an angel(since hypothetically, she is not), in addition to the torah prohibition of hurting another jew.

In the gemora we find times when amoraim tore off the pritzus garments of women..are we to accuse them of, chas veshalom, being fanatical? This is why if the vaad hatznius was for real, they would use women, not men - or they would do their workings bekedushah, like we find in the gemora. I do not think anyone with honest torah reasoning van reject the idea of a patrrol which, say, has women put sacks or big dresses on pritzusdige women in frum neighborhoods. Darcei noam is great - dont abuse people, but as usual, people will throw out the 'sheifah' with the 'poel' - enforcing tznius is vital to keep up the kedushah of yerushalayim, and eretz yisroel in general(also, of ckurse, american kehillos), but it has to be done in a way where no one is being abused. The problem is, many writers here seem to imply that a woman should be allowed, totally uninterrupted, to be walking mushchasos and soul-nabbers, and if you do anything to stop them, you're shrugged off as a'rock thrower' or a 'caveman'(implying suvh people existed further shows how goyishe ideals have infiltrated even the frummest of kehillos) infringing on their freedom to do so, even peacefully. The two sound very similar to me - both seem like extremes, and daas torah needs to weigh in somehow.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


210. I neglected to mention my name in 'Could someone explain..'     3/29/09 - 5:38 PM
Matisyahu Glenn

I did not mean to remain anonymous - I simply forgot to add my name to the previous comment. I am not a troll or something - I stand by what I said, and I challenge anyone to show me some (rational, torah), reasons why I am wrong, if I am in fact, wrong, as I would like to be mevarer the emes no matter what. Please, if you are going to respond, do so with more than clalaim like 'veahavta l'reacha', which honestly has little bearing here.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


211. re can somone please explain     3/29/09 - 5:57 PM
anonymousfornow

I'm looking forward to better thought out answers from people greater than I but a few quick thoughts: - When read about tanaim, etc. who did kanausdike things, all I can think is, boys and girls, don't try this trick at home. Who is on that madrega? And why are those of our generation, who are proportionately there, not doing it themselves if it is to be done? - You mention the idea of women standing outside, etc. But what level of pritzus will require that, and what level of tznius will be good enough? Minhag hamakom? Good in general but in particular practice, I can't see it working for your idea except in very parochial neighborhoods.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


212.     3/29/09 - 9:27 PM
Anonymous

To 212 and 213. You are obviously in need of serious psychiatric treatment and maybe a simple brain transplant or you ould just opt for a lobotomy. Do the world a favor,crawl back under your rock and leave your Gemara and your grubba thunmb finger outside.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


213. So typical     3/29/09 - 10:30 PM
Matisyahu Glenn - bklyn

If all people can do is insult me, well, then I suppose my point is proven(especially since the anonymous one said almost word for word what I urged people NOT to say). To respond to 215; halacha is halacha. However, you are correct; unfortunately many women are not prutzos bemayzid, but simply do not know the halachos that are nogeah to them in this regard. I am not speaking about minhag hamakom. I am speaking about desecration of the tzelem elokim that is defined by halacha. Not machloksim where there is only a good aitzah to be machmir(as in covering the shaitel), and not community siyagim and gedorim(all of which, are beautiful, but do not constitute such a reaction I described). The only trouble is, these halachos are not so well known; a woman relaying on the 'tefach' heter for instance, will easily abrogate it if she does not know what a tefach is, and so on. Of course, individual kehillos need to make their own guidelines, as the poskim delineate that when there are differing standards(within halacha, obviously), the defining line for such things as making brochos etc.. is what is considered covered normally, as in, the 'derech'. For instance, if you live in flatbush, the arm from the elbow downward will not be considered an ervah(even though many poskim consider it so, there are legitimate grounds in normative halacha to follow the shitos that are matir), but in meah shearim it would be(for someone who normally lives in MS). Yet, this would not apply to something entirely extra-halachik that was community oriented, such as positioning on the bus(provided there is no issue of becoming an object of staring, as this was the reasoning behind the mehadrin seating so commonly mistaken for 'sexism' since 'oy vey! one is behind the other!, iot's like the blacks!' - the point was and is to prevent histaclius, which is an issur deoraysih, even at an etzbah katanah - no sexism or any other 'ism' klindly made up by the goyim and slapped on to ehrliche yidden is at play here. That being said, if there is clearly no issur, then forcing the women the way I described(peacefully, again), would not apply, as no averos are being done. I appreciate the question, it helped develop my thoughts better.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


214. cont'd     3/29/09 - 10:56 PM
Matisyahu Glenn - bklyn

when it comes to those chazals about what we see as kanoyus, learn up the sugyos like any other gemora, go through the rishonim and achronim on it, and you'll get an idea(not that I can be machriah between poskim, ask your rov) of what the gedorim are. red garments were provocative(even if we;'re not masig it in our freakish culture) and may still be. and caused(cause?) hirhurim or desire, which is also assur. And so they were saving neshomos from falling, and that lady from being machshil others(not to mention herself). We are so brainwashed by american culture whcih says we can do and dress however we want, that we totally forget where daas torah stands on the issues of tznius; it is no more of a 'personal choice' as certain people tend to say in our community, than beating someone up - both have grave consequences, and as ive shown above, the latter is not as serious in halacha as the former. This may be a bit hard to swallow, but a look at what the seforim say about pritzus should enlighten us - the lubavitcher rebbe rasha"b has a fascinating letter about shmiras einayim, and the perakim about shmiras einayim in the kav hayasher are must-reads for anyone to get a handle on the severity of the sin. It can quite honestly lead to something very rare in yiddishkeit, which is virtual eternal gehinnom - as chazal say (check it out in the mishnah berurah), afilu yeh beyado torah umaysim tovim, lo yinakeh medin shel gehinnom'. If communities can band together to stop pritzus, and/or plain ignorance in what for women is a very, very strong yatzer hora(ive heard it compared to a man's yatzer for bittul torah and lo sasuru), since it is the foundation of their womanhood, we will see less problems, as there will be no more rogue-ness, or room for the violent people to operate.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


215. matisyahu glenn     3/30/09 - 12:03 AM
yoni

when it comes to those chazals about what we see as kanoyus, learn up the sugyos like any other gemora, go through the rishonim and achronim on it, and you'll get an idea(not that I can be machriah between poskim, ask your rov) of what the gedorim are. red garments were provocative(even if we;'re not masig it in our freakish culture) and may still be. and caused(cause?) hirhurim or desire, which is also assur.

that, my friend, is first class am haratzus. Please do yourself a favor and actualy look up the rishonim on the topic.

The general consensus of rishonim on this matter in that sugiya is that she is violating shatnez, NOT tznius (and not vis a vis the color read, note that the aishes chayil perek mentions women wearing red as a desirable thing). the poskim of previous generation marveled at the few who asserted that it was because it was red (including the bais yosef) because its a davar pashut that one would not do this on account of tznius.

And secondly, the issue of the color red is NOT as is commonly and ignorantly assumed to be an issue of tznius, but rather related to the word "red light district" as it was the custome in former times that harlots wore red as a badge of office and a way of informing perspective customers that she could be approached, therefore the issue of wearing red is more related to moris ayin than anything else.

and secondly, i would suggest that you take a basic look at halacha, the halacha requires YOU my friend to control your eyes, and no amount of protesting otherwise will ever save you from gehenom, and as the it says about eliezer ben dordia, "the matter is up to me alone!" your head is so asstoundingly contaminated with modernishche western goyshe traifus that you can't even look at a sugiya with the proper perspective, not to mention actualy figure out right from wrong.

secondly, if you sit and actualy read the segments on kanayous you would know that chazal effectively BANNED kannoyius a long time ago, and that pinchas himself courted eternal gehenom with his actions, kal v'chomer anyone else.

b'zman hazeh, where you see a zealot, you see a rasha gamur.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


216. missing the forest for the trees     3/30/09 - 12:56 AM
matisyahu glenn

The kanoyus you are referring to is that of killing, which is a halacha that has nothing at all to do with our discussion. Were you got the idea that pinchus is in gehinnom is beyond me - he stopped the plague, and was aarded a bris shalom from hashem(this sounds like gehinnom to you?). If you are referring to some sort of kabalah inyon(of the baruch haman arur mordechai sort) that is not for you to be learning, much less quoting in a public forum(if it even exists, which i doubt it does). The type of kanoyus chazal banned was specific, which is that halacha allows one who is a kanoi to kill a choter beshas maysoh - this has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of a non-violent yet forceful enforcement of tznius. Of course it is the achrayus of men to guard their eyes - but you would say the women who are the tools of the yatzer hora are then blameless, totally innocent? Gadol hamachtio yoser min hahorgo - quoting a tanna who no doubt mastered his inclinations to a degree we cannot fathom is pointless - then, for HIM it was 100% his fault, but do you kno what the scales will be like for the average yid today? Are you prepared to risk neshomos for your idea that it is the sole responsibility of men, and that women should never, chas veshalom be told they're wrong?

To focus on one minor point in my post is childish - the tznius aspect is there, whether it is the attraction of red, or the harlotry, the point remains the same, that she will be macshil men in some way - your point(in whih you uote one source, the BY, not 'the consensus' of rishonim as you claim) is hence missing the forest for the trees, and is utterly irrelevant. What, in my post was western, or goyishe? protecting neshomos? guarding kedushah? not anting to call pritzus 'innocent'? I haven't a clue where you got this from, or why you even bothered posting this tirade - get the main point of my post, and please dont focus on such details, or if you're going to, at least dont be misleading. Grada, the shach says that red is not tznius - did you mention that? or just the bais yosef? I sense a bias here.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


217. Another answer I left out     3/30/09 - 1:06 AM
Matisyohu Glenn

Sorry, to the first anonymous poster - I neglected to address the concern of why the gedolim have not addressed the issue the way I presented it. In my view, which I'd like to be corrected on if im wrong(again, rationally - please no more halacha-bashing), it is because people may not be ready for it(call it societal brainwasing, or whatever else), and they might escalate into what we see in this article - violence, chas veshalom. I am talking hypothetically, to get daas torah here - there is the ideal, and then there is the reality, but one whose ideals are not that of the torah's, who has ideas against daas torah, are guilty of apkiorsus(see mishnah berurah, biur halacha, siman 2, seif 2(I think, could be seif 1, the mekor is the sefer hachinuch which says almost the same lashon)) - thus, one who thinks it's perfectly permissible or 'innocent' for a woman to be dressed pritusdig is guilty of apikorsus.

There could be other reasons why gedolim have not done so yet - maybe they have a better idea and are waiting to institute it, im no talmid chacham, but the point was that something has to be done about tznius - my post was just a possible answer, not the only one.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


218. re 220     3/30/09 - 7:28 AM
anonymousfornow

You may be right - we're not "ready for it now." Yet I couldn't see myself as one of the group of women not letting the violater out of her house. I just can't identify with that. And I assume this step is only taken after trying to generally befriend her, and adequate warning.

BTW, what's your take on Mrs. On be Peles?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


219. Honorable "Mentchen"     3/30/09 - 1:36 PM
Another Example

The heimishe “mentchen” were so upset about a kashrus problem in Boro Park; they decided to fix the problem. Instead of calling the Rav Hamachshir written on the sign, these “mentchen” called for a pogrom. The adrenaline for a good riot was flowing in overdrive. The hatred for the owner by these “mentchen” knew no bounds. These brute, thuggish goons were there to “enforce” kashrus. By using their yedai esav, these zollelim v’sovim were out to make chopmeat out of the owner.

What was their motivation?

It has NOTHING to do with kashrus, their traif actions prove that conclusively. If it was kashrus, they would have followed protocol and saw the issue through the chain of command. It was a feeling of being cheated. These “mentchen” were upset to pay kosher prices for a CHEAPER traif version. They were ripped off, and showed their frustration. They acted like street thugs with a justification of “enforcing” kashrus.

We are Hashem’s chosen people.

Ha! Ha! What a joke!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


220. re "pogrom" in Brooklyn     3/30/09 - 2:20 PM
anonymousfornow

Rabbi Reisman, in his weekly shiur motzei Shabbos Vayakhel Pekudei addressed this quite well.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


221. Rabbi Twerski:     3/31/09 - 11:20 PM
JN - NJ

A number of times, like on this thread and also in the one on Pesach Chumras, you mention that you are 'offended' over something that most normal people would find quite trite. Here's a nickel's worth of free advice: Toughen up a little if you plan on trying to help people.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


222. Call To Action     4/5/09 - 2:51 PM
HISORERI

By now many of you have heard about the tremendous Chillul Hashem caused by the Director of Public Relations of a well known Orthodox organization. He wrote the organizational stance vis-a-vis Bernie Madoff. The backlash this absurd statement will have against ALL frum Jews is Ain LeShaier.

E-Mail and call your Congressmen, and Senators. Tell them Orthodox Jewry doesn't believe this crazed rant. Let them hear loud and clear AGUDAH DOES NOT REPRESENT US.

The damage this article will cause if we sit back and do nothing, is enormous.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


223. re the Madoff article     4/5/09 - 4:13 PM
anonymousfornow

WADR, if any is due, not knowing who you are, I think it's absurd to write to congressmen, etc. to distance ourselves from this. (And yes, I read the article.) Instead, post a reasoned comment to any forums that published the article, and this way the people exposed to the article will see your disagreement registered.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


224.     4/5/09 - 5:03 PM
Anonymous

I am not exactly sure what the best response to this article should be, but the option of doing absolutely nothing sounds the most reasonable. Not that I have given the matter a lot of thought – being preoccupied with Pesach, but the choice of shev ve’al ta’aseh may well make more sense. The echo of noise protesting this article may actually gain it more attention than we wish to give it. Let it fade away, not place it on the desks of politicians etc. Just a thought – don’t have time for more.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


225. They Do Represent You     4/6/09 - 9:50 AM
RAbbi Shael Siegel - shael.siegel@gmail.com

A recent article (Jerusalem Post March 22-April 2, 2009) by Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz “They Do not Represent Us” was disappointing to say the least. His position against the hasssidic thugs sponsored by the mishmar tzniut was the usual fare – reheated cholent served up on yom chol. It was tasteless and lacked merit. We all know that Buzaglo and company are shabab with no values and little future. The real issue is how does this happen in the first place?

Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz avoided the issue by taking the safe way and least offensive approach – namely that these thugs are an aberration and don’t represent the mainstream hareidi community. It is here that I beg to differ. The hareidi community in vast numbers shares the sentiments of the mishmar tzniut and their tactics. They have demonstrated this time and again. To disavow them is disengenius and doesn’t really get to the heart of the matter.

At the core of the hareidi community is a profound distrust for and dismissive attitude towards anyone or any group that doesn’t buy into their value system and way of life. Any student of hareidi history of Eastern Europe at the end of the nineteenth century and during the inter war years know that there were countless instances of violence within the hareidi community. There was even a case of premeditated murder by a Belzer Hassid during the interwar years perpetrated as a result of their on going fight against the encroachment of the Emancipation and Zionism. Tolerance was and is something sorely lacking within the educational system (formal and informal) of their yeshiva world and family unit. There are documented cases of “mesira”, where those of one hassidic court were “moser” leadership of other hassidic courts in order to further their own agenda.

It isn’t only tolerance, but respect for others with differing opinions. Precisely because of their zealotry they haven’t the capacity to respect differing views because they consider that a direct threat to their way of life. In America their zealotry is tempered because of their extreme minority status and the rule of civil law. In Israel however there is a level of tolerance for their zealotry resulting in their talibanesque behavior as reflected in the case of Buzaglo.

Their history of violence isn’t something new and novel. It has been going on for hundreds of years and has become part of their ethos. If they don’t get what they want they resort to violence. So it isn’t enough to condemn their violence as Rabbi Horowitz suggests but to seriously critique the educational systems used in their yeshivot. Their disdain for anyone not sharing their values is legendary. Until that changes and until they develop a wholesome respect and tolerance for competing view points their petty violence will continue. And yes – one ought to be ashamed!


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


226. He Does Not Represent Us     4/6/09 - 6:36 PM
Concerned Jew

rabbi Avi Shafran, in his current article praising the Rasha Bernard Madoff and belittling the Chasid MeUmos HaOlam Capt. Sullenberger, has proven that he -- Shafran -- not only does not represent us, but is an embarrassment and a Chilul HaShem.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


227. Agree with No. 229     4/6/09 - 9:41 PM
Anonymous

for rabbi shafran's extremely offensive essay, please see: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=ca...lient=firefox- a

I understand that he subsequently issued a weak "apology." However, he is the official spokesman for Agudah. I am seriously considering resigning my membership unless Agudah and shafran issue a serious apology and make appropriate amends.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


228. Correction to No. 230     4/6/09 - 9:47 PM
Correction

Sorry. The correct URL to rABBI sHAFRAN is:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:IbAbmlblev0J:www.cross-currents.com/archives/2009/04/03/bernie-sully-and-me/+Shafran+Sullenberger+Madoff+cross-current&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


229. Sullying reputations and Sully and Madoff and ad hominem     4/6/09 - 10:06 PM
anonymousfornow

Were these last few posts, and Hisoreri's earlier post, written by the same person? Just wondering. And is Rabbi Horowitz's board now the official dumping ground for people with axes to grind?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


230. Agree with the Previous Commenters     4/7/09 - 8:55 AM
Agree

When the official spokesman of Agudas Yisroel causes a Chilul HASHEM on the Internet and the media it is much more serious than violence by a single misguided individual, the subject of Rav Horowitz's essay.

What the official spokesman of Agudas Yisroel has done is provide the excuse Sonei Yisroel are seeking to desecrate the Torah HaKedoshah (R"L) and harrass Shomrei Torah UMitzvos (R"L).

In the future, whatever he -- or, hopefully, his successor publishes -- must be reviewed in advance by a member of the Moetzes, whom he claims to represent.

As a long-time active member and leader of Agudah, perhaps Rav Horowitz would like to comment.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


231. "chareidi"     7/12/09 - 6:46 AM
Anonymous

The term chareidi should best be kept to the israeli community. It is my opinion that the labeling of groups is what causes much of the hatred among jews in israel. In the U.S., please identify yourself as belonging to the "orthodox" or "yeshiva" community.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


232.     1/2/13 - 11:47 AM
Anonymous - leoranaamat@gmail.com

Thank you for all that you do for Klal Yisrael and standing for and expressing truth, even when not "popular."

L. Meystelman, Far Rockaway

  Rate & Write a Comment!
Dear Readers:

Please visit our Parenting Resource listing to learn about agencies and services that you can make use of. If you know of an agency that can be of assistance to others, kindly drop an email to our site administrator at admin@RabbiHorowitz.com and pass along the information to him.

I ask that you please consider supporting the work we are doing to improve the lives of our children. Click on these links to learn more about our teen and parent mentoring program that serves hundreds of teens and their families, or our KESHER program, now in 20 schools in 4 states. Your financial support can allow us to expand these services and help more children.

If you believe in the governing principles of this website – to help effect positive change through the candid discussions of the real issues we collectively face, please consider becoming a daily, weekly or monthly sponsor of this website and help defray the costs of it’s maintenance.



Working with Families and Educators on Behalf of our Children

This site is managed by The Center for Jewish Family Life, Inc., 56 Briarcliff Drive, Monsey, NY 10952
Project Y.E.S. was founded by Agudath Israel of America
The Center for Jewish Family Life/Project YES - 56 Briarcliff Drive, Monsey, NY 10952 (845) 352-7100 ext. 114 Fax: (845) 352-9593
email: email@kosherjewishparenting.com


Advertisements