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The Nauseating Violence in Eretz Yisroel
by Rabbi Yakov Horowitz

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7/1/09

Dear Readers:

The visual images and media descriptions of young men who dress like my children and yours throwing dirty diapers and rocks at police officers and burning garbage bins are vile and disgusting – in my humble opinion, a far greater chilul Shabbos than all the secular Jews driving in Yerushalayim.

Maybe it is just me, but throwing stones to prevent the desecration of Shabbos is about as logical as a librarian yelling, “STOP TALKING” into a powerful megaphone at the top of her lungs whenever someone whispers in the library. Or like a group of vegetarians celebrating their accomplishments by hosting a communal barbecue.

The demonstrations were purportedly called by our gedolim shlit’a in Eretz Yisroel. The large and beautiful Friday Night group Kabbolas Shabbos may have been initiated by them. However, the overall campaign to make these hafganos are unquestionably planned, prepared and led by “askanim” not gedolim.

If I may give an analogy, a sefer written by a gadol is just that – 100% the work of the gadol who wrote it. But if I write a sefer and get a haskama (letter of recommendation) from a gadol, that is a very different kettle of fish. All the more so if I were to only show the gadol the first 50 pages, and then add another 150 pages that he never saw.

I don’t for one moment believe that our aged and overburdened gedolei hador shlit’a are being informed by the askonim who plan these demonstrations, what the “last 150 pages” look like – the disgusting images of burning garbage cans and pitched battles with the police that are broadcast worldwide in real time.

Honestly, I don’t think the process by which these demonstrations are planned is led by the gedolim at all. Please carefully read this column in the Jerusalem Post, titled “The quiet organizer behind the new haredi riots vows: We won't surrender.”

I had the great ze’chus of working for and with Rabbi Moshe Sherer zt’l for the last few months of his life when we started Project YES. So I am very familiar with the correct way to approach da’as Torah. Each and every time we had a question, Rabbi Sherer, who after 50 years of leading the Agudah, had the full confidence and respect of the gedolim, humbly asked for advice and then began planning.

This does not remotely resemble the manner in which the 36-year-old Mr. Yoel Kraus conducts “behind-the-scenes deal-brokering that brings leading rabbis into its fold on various issues.” Read how the process works in Mr. Kraus’ own works, quoted in the Jerusalem Post column, "Let's say we want to stage a protest," Kraus says. "I contact people and get the word out, while the pashkivlim [wall posters used for announcements] also play an important role." Notice the words “we want to stage a protest,” and not “When our gedolim ask me to organize a protest. These are not semantics, but cut to the very core of how these things evolve. I think a more accurate term for Mr. Krause would be “The Charedi Warlord” not “The Quiet Organizer.”

I suggest that all askanim take a hiatus of at least one full generation where we stop protesting about other people’s sins and start looking inward. Maybe Mr. Krause should worry more about the hundreds of our sons and daughters who are in Israeli clubs on Friday night smoking pot, than worrying about secular Jews parking their cars on Shabbos. Maybe Mr. Krause should worry more about the pedophiles in our community who are violating children, more than those outside our community who are violating Shabbos.

Those of us who have any positions of influence in our communities must speak up loud and clear and call this behavior what it is -- a disgraceful Chillul Hashem and a distortion of Torah values -- in the loudest and most unequivocal terms. I am convinced that those of us who don’t, will have to give din v'cheshbon for not having done so.

Our two sons are grown and married, baruch Hashem, but if I had a post-high school bachur, I would strongly question if it is wise to send him into an environment where such horrifying behavior is allowed to go on, unless I had personal assurance that his Roshei Yeshiva would not only forbid his talmidim from participating in these riots, but condemn them in the strongest terms.

I was actually in the middle of an article on this very subject, when a chaver in Eretz Yisroel emailed to me a letter written by a middle-aged chassidish woman who lives in Eretz Yisroel. The letter was posted on the popular website, “Yeshiva World,” and I reprint it here in its entirety with the editor’s permission.

It pretty much speaks for itself. But it is far from pretty.

Yakov

The following letter was submitted to YWN, and was written by a Chasidish woman who resides next to Kikar Shabbos. This unedited letter (posted in its entirety) should be an eye-opener to all parents who have Bochrim learning in Eretz Yisroel. NOTE: Quite a few “innocent” American Bochrim have been arrested in recent days for “innocently” standing by a Hafganah.

Dear YWN,

I write this with pain, not with any political agenda.

Some of you may know about the protests that are going on in Yerushalayim about the parking lot that is open on shabbos. What you may not know, and what you must know if your son is learning in the Holy Land, is what is happening on the streets.

On Shabbos the Eidah Chareidis had a kabbolas shabbos on Bar Ilan to protest the chillul shabbos.

On the Thursday before that, the garbage bin outside my house was torched at about 7:30. The bochrim who set it on fire, and a crowd of close to 100, sang ‘bar yochai’ for a few minutes, and then left, the fun was over. While this clearly had nothing to do with shabbos, after all, the mayor does not live on my street, and was an act of destruction, I had to live with the smoke for the next several hours. The bochrim had their fun, but we, who live on the block were inhaling black smoke, and couldn’t call the fire dept. because it is a ‘chillul hashem’. I saw a man of about 60 going back and forth with his little girl, carrying pails of water to extinguish the flames. (He had to walk half a block and go up steps, refill water, come back…) He did this, at least for two hours. There are those that burn, and those that are left to put out the flames.

We did our best to help, but when we thought the fire was out, 3 hours after it started, a spark caught again and the whole bin was in flames again. I called my rebbitzin and got permission to call the fire department. I woke up the next morning with pain in my heart and a scratchy throat, that is all. My rebbitzin told me of men and women who had to be hospitalized because they’re allergic to smoke or because of excessive smoke inhalation. I got off lucky.

On Sunday, I was walking to my sister who lives on a quiet street. Two garbage bins were burning on her street, and a group of about 15 bochrim stood around, some threw in garbage, the other just laughed and cheered. Again, the rabbonim organized a mechoa on Shabbos, not on Sunday. And they said, even when they asked people to come to the protests, that one shouldn’t burn garbage.

Last night, Monday, I heard screaming and yelling from the street. I washed my dishes. At one point, at about 10:30, I heard something heavy being dragged. I looked out and saw a group of bochrim rolling out the garbage bin from our street, to the kikar a block away. Smoke was already rising at the kikar, from other garbage bins apparently. Other bochrim were rolling more garbage bins from other blocks, some of them metal, some plastic. It stabbed my heart, I was just standing there and shaking. I watched two bochrim carrying cardboard to kindle the flames. Like many of the rest, they were wearing hats and jackets and like a very large percentage, they were speaking English. My husband yelled down to one of them, ‘what are you doing here?’ They laughed. A bochur that lives next door to us pleaded with the ones that were pulling out our garbage. They ignored him.

For the next few hours, we kept hearing animalistic screaming from the street. We decided, my husband and I, that we couldn’t do anything anyways so we would just remain inside. We went to bed with difficulty. Just as the sounds would peter out, we heard inhuman screaming again. We heard things being thrown, and metal clattering against the street. I would later see that these brave warriors were pulling barricades that protect pedestrians on the narrow sidewalks, out of the cement.

At about 1:30, I was still unable to fall asleep. Suddenly our air-conditioner, which was on to block out the noise of the street, not to keep us cool, went off and our apartment went dark. It turns out that the electricity of the entire area, including even the street lamps, was blown, perhaps because of the fire. The screaming on the street increased. I got dressed and went out to the porch.

On the kikar a block away, the bochrim were very proud that they blew the electricity of all the families living in what I believe was a two to three block radius. After a few minutes of triumphant screaming, they began singing to the tune of Carlebach, ‘Ani avdecha ben amasecha…’

The irony was so painful, I cried loudly, on the porch. My husband, satmar geshtimt, chassid of the Eidah, didn’t try to stop me.

I could go on. There were horrible sights and sounds that night, finally petering out at 2:30.

The reason I am posting, my questions are:

1)What were these bochrim thinking??

2)Where was the tzelem elokim when I heard words and sounds that should not come out of any human being’s vocal chords, especially not that of yeshivaleit? Where was the basic compassion / thought for the neighbors? Where was any sort of restraint when barricades, which are extremely important by our narrow sidewalks for safety, were wrenched out with a lot of effort? How did they have the heart to watch a small old man carrying his garbage three blocks away because that was the first place the bin was still there?

3)R’ Avraham Yehoshua of Brisk said this week when one of his bochrim were arrested, “vos tut a bochur bei a mechoa?” - what is a bochur doing by a protest? (He was talking about a real mechoa, organized by the gedolim, and he is no Zionist.) What indeed? Even if he is ‘just’ watching, why risk arrest, make a great chillul hashem, be mechazek those that are being mazik, if he doesn’t have to ? If he cares about shabbos, how about being mekabel shabbos early, as we have began doing, for Yerusahalayim? None of the rabbonim said bochrim should go, and in general, all men should not go unless told to do so by their morah d’asra. There is too much of your own humanity at risk.

4)Where are you parents? Let me ask that again. Where are you parents? Do you realize the implication of no supervision in your son’s yeshiva? A choshuve bochur next door, the one who tried to stop the garbage bin from being rolled out, told my husband this morning, “Who’s in charge that I make it to shachris on time? I slept late because of what happened here, who’s worrying that I daven?” Do you realize your sons could be mazik tens of people and no one will do anything? Do you realize that if your sons drink or smoke or watch inappropriate videos, or meet with the other gender, (we have bochrim over for shabbos seudos and there are a lot of bochrim diros in our neighborhood - believe me, I’ve seen too much…) no one is stopping them? This is a much broader issue than just what happened last night. Do you know what your sons are doing? I know he is the best boy in the universe, but who’s to say he doesn’t have unfiltered Internet in his dirah? Who is to say he didn’t get caught up with a crowd and that he didn’t scream like a maniac in middle of a city, in middle of the night? Who is to say that he didn’t join a group of likewise English speakers, to do the holy act of pulling out barricades from the sidewalk? Who is to say that he makes it on time for shachris? Who is accountable for him? He himself? - “Al taamin b’atzmecha” these bochrim need higher supervision.

We decided we’re going to do something. My husband is coming home late for lunch because he is meeting with the mashgiach of Mir and Chevron. I am calling the Gaved of the Eidah, with the blessings of my Rebbe, and going to post what I saw wherever I can.

I didn’t take pictures last night, because I was so disgusted. It’s like an embarrassing episode that you’d rather erase from your mind. Now I regret it, I would have shown the pictures to the mashgichim of these yeshivos, shown them what their bochrim were doing. If five bochrim were kicked out of yeshiva, I bet all of these shenanigans would stop immediately.

Please don’t respond with stories about shabbos and pride marches and the gedolim of previous generations. This has got nothing to do with it.

If you’re a mother, know where your son is. If you’re a friend, make sure you never justify the unjustifiable. If you’re a fellow Jew, daven for these bochrim, but never commend their actions. Daven for peace in Yerushalayim, and never stand up for those who value fun (Midnight Mir party! I heard one of the bochrim scream last night) over self respect, over basic mentschlichkeit, over Kiddush HaShem.

Sha’alu Shalom Yerushalayim.

Recommended Reading:

The Pierced Teen and I "A"

Before the Next Time

My Grandfather and I "A"



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1. Astonishing     7/1/09 - 5:42 PM
Elliot Pasik - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

The mother's eyewitness account is sad and compelling. I do note that Rav Moshe Sternbuch wrote in Yated about the toevah parade, "Burning garbage bins, smashing traffic lights and other destruction of city property does not aid the cause and is a desecration of Hashem's name. This seeming religious zeal is childish behavior from individuals looking for an excuse to have what they consider a good time."

Nevertheless, what are the roots of these boys' actions? Are their yeshivas and parents teaching them respect for the government and the laws of the State of Israel? The question answers itself. You can't have it both ways.


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2. Really - Could not have put in any better     7/1/09 - 5:51 PM
ED

No way any gadolim support anyone throwing stones on shabbos - not even one


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3. our boys are accomplishing too much     7/1/09 - 6:21 PM
Sarit - Ramat Bet Shemesh

With all the focus on progress in learning, doing lots and lots of mitzvos, people are so busy with their own task lists that I wonder whether chessed gets left behind in the dust.

We're great with technology, our kids score really high on things we couldn't do until we were a few years older, and the lists go on.

How could bachurim behave this way? Because they are raised to think they shouldn't help out at home since their job is to learn, learn, learn.

Never mind that the Vilna Gaon wrote that the ultimate purpose of limud is to improve our midos. The boys can't waste their time on stuff like that....

And that hashkafa doesn't come from askanim, it comes from teachers. A very popular mechaber sefarim in the charedi circles tells the yungeleit that even if they're starving - its a worse starvation to give up learning Torah all day. A maggid shiur speaks to a group of newly marrieds, and threatens them that if they don't apply themselves with all their might then they'll wind up "nebbech just a mesivta Rebbe."

A parenting teacher with throngs of students tells her classes with pride how her son has been learning far more than her nephew who -ahem - went to college: "When the boy comes for Shabbos, my son challenges him - 'I dare you let's sit down and learn I can run circles around you - you haven't learned anything in your yeshiva'!" Now even the mothers are taught to forgo derech eretz to push the learning imperative.

But most people online don't agree with these perspectives. The problem is that the teachers do, and they aren't going to listen to the parents, especially not those who go on the internet....


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4. haven't been able to stomach this     7/1/09 - 7:09 PM
anonymousfornow

I haven't been following this really. I only skimmed the YWN letter quoted below, as well as the dozens of comments, some of which tried to explain, rationalize, etc. so I can only hope there is some truth in those comments.

I feel like there is nothing I personally can do here in chu"l besides educate my children properly. Is there any value in following this?


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5. What's the point     7/1/09 - 7:18 PM
Yitzchok - Brooklyn, N.Y.

There are certainly enough Rabbonim in Eretz Yisroel who could quell this reprehensible behavior, and if there arn't, or if they cannot, what makes you think, Rabbi Horowitz, that you can?

The way I see it, is that these boys have nothing else to do. No life. No sports. No art. No literature. No education. No future.

Many of the "American rioters" are essentially in a loose holding pen until the phone call comes to discuss shidduchim. Those are kids likely to be the average no care in the world teenage "joyriders". This article is highly unlikely to influence them. Big waste of time.

The Israelies? Are you kidding? Like I said. No future. Not even Nachal Hacharedi. Their stint in prison will hardly affect their future schnorring enterprise. Who are we left with? Why are you doing this? There is so much on OUR plates HERE. So again.

What's your point?


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6. The point of this     7/1/09 - 7:31 PM
Anonymous

To Yitzchok:

Whenever you hear an Arab person speaking about how "Islam is really all about peace and the terrorists are only a tiny fraction of the people," any thinking person asks, "So, where are the decent Arab leaders?" "Why are they not speaking out?"

Well; what's good for the goose..........

If we say that "Ah; these crazy kanoim, there are only a few wackos who do this"

Where are our decent rabbis?

I can't speak for Rabbi Horowitz, but I think that is exactly his point. To be a decent one.

I wish there were more like him.


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7. 5     7/1/09 - 7:44 PM
Anonymous

Even if the Hashgacha Pratis does not allow us to make a dent, we define ourselves by the choices we make and by the positions we take. The point of this is: who are we going to be when we stand before the kisseh hakavod after 120.


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8. What Else is New Under the Sun?     7/1/09 - 8:39 PM
Steve Brizel - Flushing NY - Zeliglaw@aol.com

These demonstrations, and their lack of imprature from Gdolim, are symptomatic of any culture with a lot of young adults with no constructive use of their free time as in sports, athletics , etc. What we should think twice about responding to are what we will be the inevitable advertisements for Pidyon Shevyuim of "innocent yeshiva bachurim." I would suggest that it is well worth any parent of a daughter in the parsha to simply inquire of someone who is purportedly learning in the yeshivas to ask whether the young man was learning as much as possible or participating in what is an obvious Bitul Zman and Chillul HaShem of immense proportions.


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9.     7/1/09 - 10:32 PM
Benzion Twerski

Aside from articles of direct guidance about issues of parenting and chinuch, Rabbi Horowitz has also been addressing matters of current events, and sharing his insights and opinions. You may ask why. I can only respond with what I believe I gain from reading such articles. My children are exposed to all of the current events. Several of my children know more about what is in the news than I do. In most cases, they heard it broadcast on “Kol Mevaser”, a news hotline in Yiddish that is geared for the chassidishe community. Regardless, they hear, they know, and they deserve to understand.

My role is to be sure that they recognize that not all that happens is to be lauded. Sometimes there is valuable criticism. And that is where my role as a parent or mechanech is crucial. Some of the media carried a story last week about how Rav Yosef Chain Zonnenfeld ZT”L conducted a protest of chilul Shabbos. He sat in front of the store that was open on Shabbos with a Tehilim. The concept of protest is with precedents from leaders of earlier generations. The methods have clearly changed with the times, and it is not difficult to recognize similarities in the way recent protests in Eretz Yisroel bore resemblances to the protests that follow international sports games or political unrest. The frenzy that is accompanied with highly questionable boundary violation is a common factor. This message is one that we need to make one of our chinuch.

Burning garbage bins is not part of deroche’ho darchei noam, and neither is throwing trash, soiled diapers, or mouthing nivul peh. Even if this behavior brings about rescinding of the parking lot decision, the end does not justify the means.

If we once believed that our teaching mandate is limited to the texts of the holy Torah, the world today has changed the mandate. We must help our children know right from wrong. Much of this we can model. But whatever else is being modeled requires our commentary to help guide them to choose which roles are okay and which are not. That is our responsibility as mechanchim and as parents.


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10. Methods of protest     7/2/09 - 12:21 AM
Anonymous

'The methods have clearly changed with the times'

The changed methods are tragic, but no less important are the transformations that lurk beneath the actions--the changes that explain WHY we have r'l arrived where we are, choosing the despicable methods that we do. We will never alter the means without genuinely understanding the ends--the two stand inextricable.

What motivated Rov Y. C. Sonnenfeld ZTL to protest vs what motivates today's hooligans? Just why did the Chofetz Chaim, pained by chilul Shabbos, choose to place a gentle hand upon his fellow Yid's shoulder and softly cry "Shabbos!" while today's protesters throw stones and ignite fires--on a good day?

We need to move beyond our rightfully placed condemnations to make some sort of meaning and identify the precise factors that contribute to the dynamics that have been exploding, ironically, on the streets of a city named for peace.I dont think the comments regarding the lack of fulfilling direction we offer our youth are off base, but i believe the picture is far more complex...There are all sorts of political, economic, sociological, religious, and psychological issues fanning the flames. Ideas, anyone?


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11.     7/2/09 - 12:35 AM
shoin genook

Rabbi Horowitz, You write "I don’t for one moment believe that our aged and overburdened gedolei hador shlit’a are being informed by the askonim who plan these demonstrations, what the “last 150 pages” look like – the disgusting images of burning garbage cans and pitched battles with the police that are broadcast worldwide in real time."

What would happen if you together with other respected Rabbonim visited our Gedolim and told them what the askonim are doing? Why don't you?

The first thing would be to ask our Gedolim to please have the askonim leave the room so you can speak to them in private. Many askonim just stand over the Gedolim's shoulders while any question, even the most private ones are being asked (I know, it happened to me! And the askon had the nerve to interupt me in the middle of my shayla and tell me it's not important! what a nerve...)making sure that their agenda is being met. We need brave respected Rabbonim to open the eyes of our Gedolim as to how they are being manipulated. Maybe then, they will decide not to call demonstrations like this which only bring about worse problems...

I really want to understand, what would happen if a respected group of Rabbonim would visit the Gedolim and cite many examples of how their decisions were only on the first 50 pages and then somebody slipped in the next 150. That somebody is the askon who is the Godol's gatekeeper. Is it so crazy to demand of our Gedolim to remove them from their job they have abused???


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12. Pointless.     7/2/09 - 7:09 AM
Yitzchok - Brooklyn, N.Y.

Look. In many, and perhaps most so called "'heimishe'" boys elementary schools, the ones I've attended and those of my children, extended family and friends, the "English" department is, in my opinion- 1 big chillul Hashem. There is a tremendous lack of support- almost a concerted effort on the part of the hanholo ruchni- to stymy the efforts of the wretched souls who take the job titled "English teacher". My point is that there exists a massive undercurrent of complete lack of derech eretz torward anything other than our cultural conditioning. How about starting with that? That's my point.


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13. the reason     7/2/09 - 7:33 AM
Rafi Goldmeier - Bet Shemesh, Israel - israeli.jew@gmail.com

I think it is important that Rabbi Horowitz write about these topics and issues. The reason is because a phenomenon that starts, perhaps considered as a frumkeit or an ideal behavior, if it is not corrected quickly or rejected will eventually become mainstream in other communities in Israel,and eventually find its way to the shores of the USA.

How many crazy chumras started out in Israel, think tzniyus related issues, and are now implemented in brooklyn and Lakewood?

Same as this. if the behavior in such instances is not rejected, eventually it will become the norm.


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14. How will that help?     7/2/09 - 8:26 AM
Benzion Twerski

The reason we cannot get the askanim to lose their positions may well be that they are involved in these activities in a volunteer manner. I do not know any of these individuals, neither personally nor by name. But there are many askanim of various types in America that are involved in helping with the sick, those who lack food for Shabbos, families of foreigners who come to America for surgery, those who get involved with the courts and jails, agunos, kids at risk, Hatzoloh, Shomrim, Chaveirim, etc. Not a single one is being employed for this activity and chesed. Every one is a good hearted volunteer. Since they were not hired, they cannot be fired (particularly those without a parent agency). Who says that the gedolim have any jurisdiction?

Yes, our gedolim should be made aware of what occurs, and they should take a stand. Unfortunately, they will be giving commentary after the fact, not directing from the outset, because they are not being asked or informed. And that won’t help much. They may sit back and comment about yesterday’s chilul Hashem. How will that help?


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15. The Bes Din Shel Maala     7/2/09 - 9:06 AM
David

If we can use our imaginations for a moment: HKB"H looked down last Shabbos to see what's happening in His holy city. He saw (among other things) two very different groups of people. He saw a group of secular Jews, who were never given a Torah education and were never taught about halacha, driving their cars on Shabbos. He then saw another group of devout Yiddin, who were born and raised on the traditions of Yisrael Saba, who several times a week recite in shul the pasuk "Deracheha darchei noam," who have heard inspiring stories of the Chofetz Chayim's love for all Jews, who since kindergarten have been singing "Ve'ahavta lere'acha kamocha zeh klal gadol ba'Torah" - hurling objects at their fellow Jews and committing other acts of violence.

Let us ask ourselves honestly, who is He more angry at?

What disturbs me almost as much as the violence itself is the self-righteousness and arrogance of our world. It's always "their" fault; the root cause of all the problems is the "sitra achara" - the secularists, who, despite not having been ever taught Torah, are expected to bow to the authority of our gedolim and fall in love with us because we are the bearers of tradition.

We will never grow, neither as individuals nor as a community, if we refuse to take a cold, hard look at ourselves and see what's wrong with US. We all know what's wrong with THEM, and, frankly, there isn't all that much we can do about it, especially if we live in our isolated communities and kollelim and never interact with them. For Heaven's sake (literally), let's focus on improving ourselves before we complain about chilonim who are trying to enjoy their one-day weekend.


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16. To Rabbi Twersky, shlit"a     7/2/09 - 9:59 AM
bk

Please allow me to disagree with the parallel between the countless askanim involved in the many chessed projects and the "gatekeepers" kind of "machers".

The former are motivated by chessed and achavas Yisroel. It seems to me, that the later are driven by desire for power and control - even if they cannot admit it to themselves, let alone others.

I don't think that the fact they try to control others without pay makes it any more palatable. If this trend is not stopped (just read about lobbying Rabbi Elyashiv for MP4 ban), we are in danger of replacing the yiddishkeit with totalitarian society (I grew up in one and the parallels are striking).

Is there any way to reverse this terrifying trend?


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17. Reply to bk #16     7/2/09 - 10:39 AM
Benzion Twerski

I was not drawing a parallel between the paragons of chesed and the leaders of violence and barbaric behavior. Chas Veshalom. My parallel is that the operation is not the organized process that has been evaluated, choreographed, planned, and submitted for haskomoh or review by leaders. With this as the matzav, there is little that the gedolim can do besides to bemoan the chilul Hashem after the fact. We do that ourselves. I do not put these two types of askanim in the same category at all. I apologize if I made it sound as if these were either both wonderful or terrible. They are worlds apart.


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18. YOUR 100% ON THE MONEY     7/2/09 - 11:00 AM
PARENT - LAKEWOOD

REB YANKY, AS USUAL YOU'RE ON THE MONEY WHEN IT COMES TO ISSUES AFFECTING OUR FRUM HEIMISH COMMUNITY WE'D RATHER NOT CONFRONT OR TALK ABOUT. BUT THE LETTER WRITTEN BY THAT WOMEN WHO LIVES NEAR KIKAR SHABBOS IS A WARNING TO ALL PARENTS WHO SEND CHILDREN (YES 18-22 YEAR OLDS THOUGH ADULTS LEGALLY ARE STILL OUR CHILDREN AND RESPONSIBILITY)TO ERETZ YISROEL, KNOW YOUR CHILD AND IF HE IS LIKELY TO GET INTO TROUBLE OR WORSE DON'T SEND HIM THERE ARE PLENTY OF YESHIVAS HERE IN AMERICA. DONT DUMP YOUR CHILD FOR 2 YEARS IN ISRAEL HOPING HE'LL COME BACK BETTER THAN WHEN HE LEFT ERETZ YISROEL IS A LIFE SAVER AND TURNING POINT FOR SOME BOCHURIM AND UNFORTUNATLY A LETDOWN AND YERIDA IN RUCHONIS FOR OTHERS. ERETZ YISROEL ISN'T A CURE ALL FOR EVERYONE. CHOOSE THE YESHIVA YOU SEND YOUR CHILD TO CAREFULLY IS THERE A MASHGIACH WHO KNOWS WHERE THE BOCHURIM ARE? OR CAN HE GO MISSING FOR A WEEK AND NO ONE WILL KNOW THE DIFFRENCE NOT EVEN YOU HIS PARENTS?? FOR A LACK OF A BETTER MOSHUL ERETZ YISROEL IS A MINEFIELD IF YOU'RE CAREFUL WHERE YOU GO, WHO YOUR FRIENDS ARE, AND WHO YOU SPEND TIME WITH, THEN ERETZ YISROEL IS A BEAUTIFUL RUCHNIOUSDIKA INSPIRING EXPERIENCE BUT IF CHAS VESHOLOM NOT IT'S A REAL MINEFIELD!!! SIGNED FROM ONE WHO LIVED AND LEARNED IN ERETZ YISREOL FOR 5 YEARS AND HAVE/HAD CHILDREN THERE NOW


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19. 11 Opening up the eyes of Rabbonim     7/2/09 - 11:08 AM
Anonymous

"We need brave respected Rabbonim to open the eyes of our Gedolim as to how they are being manipulated"

That someone should inform the Rabbonim of how their askonim manipulate them is a matter of bein-adom-lechaveiro and kevod talmidei chachomim toward the Rabbonim--it is a bizayon for them to be manipulated as has been portrayed on this site, assuming the descriptions are true. That said, I think we need to take a good look at how we allow OURSELVES to be manipulated by assuming the mindset these askanim encourage--one that buys into the no thinking-no questions asked-black and white tendency to idealize 'infallible' leaders at all costs in all areas of life.

In a recent post on the Markey 2.0 thread, Dr. Twerski noted, "I am not sure that the Moetzes should be issuing statements about governmental policies or legislation. It is not for them to dictate what legislators should do." From our perspective, there are more appropriate and less appropriate ways to draw upon the input of Rabbonim and as baalei bechirah responsible for our choices, we need to explore our options. Rabbi Horowitz' book on parenting offers some vauable insights on this subject.

I guess I am trying to argue that there is responsibility to be assigned for our mess all around. On the part of Rabbonim, I can't simultaneously accept that they possess nearly perfect perception about everything by virtue of Daas Torah AND that they are ignorant of what is happening directly around them as well as in the society they 'lead.' The two don't jive. If they don't know, on some level they prefer it that way. Another option is that they simply reject the nearly absolute leadership role we have assigned them, which is fair enough on their part. But then we need to adjust how we follow those upon whom we project non-existent leadership.

Your argument in post 11 was that our leaders are controlled by 'gatekeepers' and that we need to open the eyes of the einei ha-edah. Leaders who are controlled? Shepheards who dont know what their flock is up to? Am I the only one who observes some major contradictions here?


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20. "...Stop Protesting About Other People’s Sins and Start Looking Inward"     7/2/09 - 11:12 AM
Disappointed

Very appropriate statement, Rabbi Horowitz. It applies to all of us, especially those who oppose the Markey bill and other sincere attempts to help the victims and less fortunate in our society.

We know that Sinas Chinam (irrational hatred) is the cause of our problems. Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha (standing by and doing nothing and/or preventing others from offering assistance) is the worst manifestation of this evil.


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21. As parents and teachers we expect more!     7/2/09 - 11:15 AM
Tammy - Brooklyn, NY

Once again, I commend Rabbi Horowitz for bravely taking a stand and position on these areas of volitility within our community. I think that kavod habrios and Derech Eretz kadmah LaTorah needs to be implemeneted greater in the homes and in our schools. We must place significantly more emphasis on middos tovos and basic repect and dignity for ALL human beings.

It pains me to see frum yeshiva kids push and shove on a city bus and then give me, a married, 38 year old woman, a funny look when I stand up for an elerly black gentleman on the bus. Have they never learned about making a kiddush Hashem or diplaying basic human qualities like empathy and respect to all human beings regardless of their level of hashkafa or yiddishket, or religion for that matter?

My grandfather, A"H, a Holocaust survivor, would greet everyone he knew every morning from the Rav of his shul to the postman, garbage man and bus driver with a friendly, "Hello, Good Morning and Thank You." These basic civilities were imprinted on his children and granchildren as a basic 'derech eretz' that we must show to everyone.

What is happening now in Eretz Yisroel is sadly symptomatic of today's generation being raised to be selfish, inconsiderate and simply not thoughtful or insightful into anything other than self promotion or pleasure. Parents MUST take back the reins and take charge in teaching their children. How do you expect a child who was raised to be self centered, to be considerate and generous? These behaviors, as Rabbi Twwersky stated earlier, must be modeled and lived by all the adults in their lives with the expectations that our children will meet and fiollow this derech, Bezras Hashem. Anything less than that will result in events such as hese becoming more the norm, Chas Veshalom.


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22. firing askanim     7/2/09 - 11:27 AM
Anonymous

Would like to respectfully dispute the argument in post #14 that akanim who are not hired cannot be fired. How about something like this: "Reb So-and-so, Thank you for all your kind help; I really appreciate your tireless dedication. However, this is how I would like a, b, and c done...I would appreciate if you would refrain from doing x...I would like to read documents in category y before 'we' sign it...I forbid additional pages being added after my haskama is affixed...I can not work with you, although I would like to, if you continue x,y, or z..."

This is a matter of being assertive about what is right and about what the Rov desires. It has nothing to do with formalities of hiring and firing and salaries.If a Rov cannot control this, where is his power at all?


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23. Hiring and firing     7/2/09 - 12:20 PM
Benzion Twerski

When I made that statement, I was not referring to salary. I was referring to the activities of the askanim as being representative of the gedolim. My position is that they are not, and I do not believe that there is any tacit haskamah to the direction that things go. I might be corrected on fact, but I believe that no gedolim were involved in deciding that violence, chilul Hashem, fire setting, or hurling objects was approvable. I am convinced that they knew none of this until after the fact, and their opinion the next morning has as much meaning as yours or mine. When the askanim will represent gedolim, these gedolim would then bear responsibility. Having stated that, I would add that we have observed our leaders taking stands on what the public does, and either approving or disapproving. The Kol Koreh printers are live and well, and the collectors of signatures are quite busy.

Maybe it's time that a Kol Koreh be issued that supports peaceful and respectful protesting - requiring specific haskamah of rabbonim, and blatantly banning any protests that involve violence and disrespect.


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24. 23 Rabbonim's response to the violence     7/2/09 - 5:10 PM
Anonymous

1. Of course the Rabbonim knew nothing about the violence in its initial planning stage! The question is why the gabbaim manage to accomplish so many things in the name of the Rabbonim without the Rabbonim knowing before the fact. This may be a particularly disturbing case, but it is far from an isolated one and the phenomenon is in itself disturbing. Furthermore, ad hoc, what will be done? How will authorities ensure that they are not repeatedly misrepresented?

2. Do you really think that the visceral violence unleashed under the guise of protests le'maan kedushas Shabbos can be quelled by Rabbinic regulation? Halevai it should be so simple. The reality is that there is lots of "stuff" beneath the surface motivating this sort of behavior and there are lots of hooligans participating. We are not just addressing a fanatic fringe element of three members. We clearly face a pervasive, systemic issue. Like many other problems that we naively seek to ameliorate through bans and takanos, this problem requires serious internal care rather than a mere bandaid.


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25. where are our gedolim?     7/2/09 - 5:51 PM
Brooklyn Mom

When the rabbonim think shaitels are too long, we hear about it. When rabbonim want to ban a concert, we hear about it. When they want to ban cell phones with internet/texting, we hear about it. When they want to ban Slifkin's book, we hear about it. Why don't we hear a strong, clear message coming from our gedolim, declaring that the behavior of the rioters was 100% unacceptable? Is it possible that they know about long shaitels, they know about "the" concert, they know about Slifkin's book, they know about texting, but they don't know what is happening in the streets of Yerushalayim? I really don't understand. If they don't know what is happening around them, then how can they be our leaders? And if they do know, why don't they lead the way in condemning the riots as vocally as they protest other issues?


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26.     7/2/09 - 8:58 PM
Moshe - NY

What is he talking about? The protesters didn’t kill anybody (like the Muslims), and nor did they attack anybody. The worst thing they did was to set fire on garbage cans.

I wonder if he war so hysterical when the ??????? in Gaza did the same thing a few years ago


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27. Is this a subliminal hint?     7/2/09 - 9:45 PM
Not Brisker Yeshivish - notbrisk@gmail.com

Rabbi Horowiz seems to have insider knowledge on only getting partial haskamas from Gedolim. Does this apply to himself? Were they only involved in the beginning? Do his articles really only represent one layman's views? Is he hiding behind endorsements that are invalid because they only saw the proverbial first 50 pages? Is he honest ore now he evolved into an eygeneh deyeh zugger?


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28. Something I don't understand     7/2/09 - 10:28 PM
Matis G

Violence is nauseating - I don't know of anywhere where it says lighting garbage is a chiuv Kares, or for that matter, even assur. The fact that it is a chillul hashem is what makes it wrong, not to mention the danger and that it is pretty pointless. What I am bothered by is the fact that rabbi horowitz continually writes about this kind of thing - those 'protesters' were certainly wrong. They had no daas torah backing them, and therefore their actions represent no one but themselves - unfortunately, they were dressed very charedish, but this means nothing.

There are, unfortunately, many apikorsim and erev rav in our generation. I know from a talmid in my yeshiva that there are students in brooklyn college who bedavka go there(instead of touro, or an online college) because they want to be around the pritzus in brooklyn college - forget eretz yisroel, there are many, many teenagers here who do things far worse than burn garbage. They meet with girls and are oiver on issurei kares, things that are yehereg velo yaavor.

Is this not also nauseating? Is the fact that these kids have no emunah in Hashem also nauseating? Of course, but if it is, how come we never see Rabbi Horowitz talking about it? How come we need to reach out to the apikorsim and avaryanim in our community, help them get visitation rights to their kids, poisoning them with a confusing dichotomy of religious and often anti-religious exposures, call them 'right-brained' and 'moral, just not in the religious sense'(as if there were morality without g-d) - I would like rabbi horowitz to explain himself. Why is he tolerant of such things, willing to sit down and discuss family arrangements, peacefully, no ostracization, no impassioned articles titled 'they do not represent us' or 'nauseating', and the like. These people often get others to go off the derech in their cynicism and hateful tirades against G-d and his Torah(a quick blog search would show this), yet rabbi horowitz finds the patience for them. Why then does he not show the same patience to child molestros and people who incite riots and violence?

The torah speaks very clearly that an apikores is so terrible, we pray for their deaths and total destruction 3x a day - I see no such prayer for people who violate 'lo sonu'(a very terrible sin indeed, but there are differences - if rabbi horowitz has no problem using such language as 'monsters' and such for child molesters, he should write about the apikorsim in our community in a similar vein.

Why does he tolerate such people who are considered the worst living things alive?(I'd like you to find me some mekor to say that violence is worse than apikorsus - you wont find any. Apikorsus is far worse)

Many things on this website are helpful. Rabbi Horowitz is a respected mechanech who is sincerely trying to help people. He also says he has no problem speaking to gedolim about his activities - I'd like to know if gedolei yisroel know there is such a website as 'rabbi horowtiz.com' where people log on and contunally blast the amazing ehrlichekeit that is the charedi communities in eretz yisroel. Not to mention the lashon hora that is said here in other ways, and some questionable things rabbi horowitz has said himself.

In a different thread, RH has bemoaned the fact that many in the frum community see apikorsim as baalei taiva(even though this is what chazal, rishonim and achronim all say, most famously brought by reb elchonon in his maamar about aristotle) - why does he not show these opinions, certainly contrary to that of other gedolei yisroel, to gedolei yisroel before posting them? Why does he speak positively of 'people who choose to leave the frum world', dismissing their sins without any intense articles - he has compassion and remorse for them, and wants to, as he sees it, help them - but why does he not have the same compassion for child molestors and those who cause violence? Aren't they suffering too? Arent they our breothers who need to be reached out too? Is it because of a materialistic attitude that those who molest children are worse since we SEE their evil, as oopposed to apikorsim, who destroy ENTIRE WORLDS in no less way than child molesters do, however we dont see their evil, it's hidden - is this the differentiation? I hope it's not.


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29. To Matis     7/2/09 - 11:14 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey/NY

Matis:

What an excellent and insightful group of questions you ask! It is questions like these and the reflection they force that help clarify one's thoughts.

Al regel achas you ask why I am tolerant of everyone's sins except for those of the kanoim.

The questions are good enough for me to need linas laylah to properly respond.

But; in the meantime here are my initial thoughts:

1) The 'sinners' you mentioned that I treat kindly are aware of their human weaknesses. That makes it easy to work with them. Not so these kanoim. They have no flaws and never make mistakes. In other words, it is rare if not impossible for them to do teshuvah with their current mindset.

Or, as the Kotzger z'tl said that he prefers a rosha who knows that he is a rosha rather than a tzadik who thinks he is a tzadik.

2) A far greater point is that I think these kanoim are the most destructive force in our community. They

a) Have shlepped out entire society off the shvil hazahav

b) Use terror to stop any solutions to our communal problems (such as nachal charedi, education for kids who are not cut out for learning, recreation for children, on and on)

c)Are totally turning off thousands of people my age to the point that many, many great, ehrliche people who come to me for hadracha have stopped keeping Torah and mitzvos because they feel that they have no place in today's chumrah-oriented society. (Matis; you sound like a mevakesh emes. Trust me that what I say is true.)

Now let me get some linas laylah.

I really look forward to your comments.

Yakov


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30. Re; to matis     7/3/09 - 12:13 AM
Matis G

There are many reasons why people go off. However, I think it is irresponsible to discount the fact that people have yatzer horas, taivos, and the like. Secular society is appealing to a middle-aged man whose wife isn't what she used to be; I'm sorry to say it, but there's more to taiva than actual znus. The mindframe of one who is shier torah umitzvos, who learns regularly, practices mussar, and leads a life of yiras shomayim and intense ahavas hashem, is far different from one who is off the derech, in the sense that the latter has no reservations about, say, looking at women on the street, going to beaches, watching inappropriate things on the computer or television, and most notably the averah of hotza'as zera levatalah.

These are things secular society dismisses as 'monkish' or whatever - it regards the above behavior as normal, even 'healthy'. It however regards licenctiousness as wrong. This is why the people you describe are not outardly promiscuous - they are mature in the sense that their brain chemicals outgrew what they were when they were 16 year olds.

However the torah's attitude is very different. Hotzaas zera levatalah is mass murder. It is the euivalent of nuking a mid-size country - when one has hirhurim issurim, he is defacing G-d's holiest creation - the human being. When one is an apikores, he is the anti-creation - all the more so when he tries to bring others down with him. When he does this, he is worse than a murderer, since chazal say 'gadol hamachteo yoser min hahorgo'. He is being mafkir himself even if his societal constraints limit his sexuality(middle aged men do not go to the clubs and znus-places that our children go to - the brain matures, but the etzem person does not).

I do not know why you refer to them as sinners with quotation marks. That is simply what they are, is it not? It doesn't take more than perhaps middle school hashkafa to know that if I can't do everything in avodas hashem, it doesn't make sense to chuck the whole thing.(the shem mishmuel says it's worthwhile to live an entire life if a person does one mitzvah, even if he will have to go to gehinnom or all the other averos he did)

But this requires emunah - the way I've seen people who are no longer frum write on blogs is anything but the way you describe. They spew venom about G-d, torah, gedolim, anything and everything - they make fun of those who are sincerely frum.

Maybe you've had the brocho of not seeing these blogs - but ive not been so fortunate. What emerges is that whatever the person sees as an insane chumra becomes insane, either due to his lack of understanding or knowledge, even when gedolim sign on; unable to reconcile his view of yiddishkeit with what its representatives show him, he is frustrated and will be likely to do all sorts of aveiros.

So what if they are uncomfortable with chumros? - it's not like any real rabbonim are making the weird ones; others seem to think that not having a TV is a chumra; plenty of otherwise frum teenagers think that being shomer negiah is a chumrah, and many otherwise frum women think the chiyuv deoraysoh of covering their hair is also a chumrah - the word is relative. most people have an attitude that whatever is less frum tham I am is treif, and whatever is more, is 'fanatical'.

To say our society is based on chumros is a bit of a stretch. I am a member of our society - I see that the ones who focus on things that are extra-halachik expose themselves just fine by the rest of their actions. No one takes them seriously, certainly not older people who(should) know better.

I'll give an example - I personally cannot stand the black tape they use to bind our seforim(it's in practically every beis medrash). Now, I don't understand why they do that - they say it protects the edges, but I have trouble accepting that. Now, has any gadol betorah come out with a psak that one needs to cover his seforim in black tape? Of course not. Am I free to disagree? Of course I am. Am I going to leave yiddishkeit because the seforim binders do something I don't like, which in the long run is totally insignificant?

I think you can understand my point. To say that people go off the derech for the reason you describe is untenable - they may say that it's the reason, but it is illogical. Plus, if a person knows he is following halacha, he has nothing to worry about, even if 'yenneh' will put him down or look down on him.

Since they were in mesivta, they've been learning mussar. They've had mashgichim give fiery shmuezen, and have been chastized probably more than once. They also hear what a Jew has to do - they know the famous rashi in bechukosai about ameilus betorah, they know how severe bittul torah is, they know how demanding yiddishkeit is without the chumros. They don't get turned off when they hear that if they watch the baseball game instead of learning that they'll go to gehinnom(which could be true depending on several factors), but they get turned off when they have shiurim-cards at seder tables?

Come on. why would one small thing, one chumrah here and there, make them go off? It doesn't add up. If they're frustrated, then simply carry on as an eved hashem with as much as they can, even if they wont be able to impress everyone, unless of course, they valued impressing others beforehand - in that case, there are other problems they should recognize.

I had a friend in high school. A very ehrliche boy, fiery disposition, very good sense of kovod hatorah. He was involved with shtusim though - girls, goyishe music, friends who were not savory, and other things. He didnt know hw to learn much - plus his background was not the most advantageous. He went to a co-ed school before high school; I saw him grow in my school, year after year; he abandoned all the junk, and started getting into learning. He came back from a year in Eretz Yisroel a few weeks ago, having finished an entire mesechta, when just last year he could barely teich up anything. He knew what the yeshiva world did and how they lived - he respected it, and he admitted it that it was the right thing to do - he's growing, and he's the purpose of creation. I cant give him enough kovod - this is what the people who go off have to understand.

Yiddishkeit is not all or nothing - I doubt any significant elements in our community say otherwise. Do you honestly think the people who go of were living at the highest madrega possible, and then suddenly, when something came along that they felt incapable of doing, they decided 'to heck with it all'?

There were other problems beforehand; and the seforim say that taiva is a key player. They are not leading lives that are a mockery of G-d's creation and soverignty because a baalhabus or yungerman tells them they have to have a certain type of shabbos tablecloth, or because rabbonim ban things they see as harmful to the community. Honestly, how many concerts do people go to anyway? Was it that big of a deal? Was it something life-changing, that we cannot live without? No, it's the fact that people simply do not like being told what to do, even by gedolim.

If I am understanding you right, you are saying that it is no the severity of the sin that determines your response, but rather the fact that the people who do the less severe sins will not listen to you. Do you think the avaryanim who do work with you would listen to you if you told them to cooperate and maybe not poison yourself all that much?

The problem is, if you were to see what they were really doing(not that I do, I'm no baal ruach hakodesh, but the torah tells me what the emes is), you would understand that it's far more serious - if while right in front of you, the person had hirhurei apikorsus, and you were to see the destruction he as wreaking in the upper worlds(olam habriah, to be exact), you would jump up at him and react the same way as if you saw a man abusing a child. The trouble is that the chid molester might very well be a maamin. He might very well have a yatzer hora, and aside from this aspect be a very good person who does not deserve to have his life destroyed.

Same with the kanoim. Everyone does averos -but there is a difference between one leading a lifestyle that shows an affirmation of the philosophy of sin, and hatred(the tosefta says the most hateful person is one who denies g-d), not to mention cutting himself off from his creator, as in the case of those who are off the derech - they are walking, talking, dead people(the gemora says reshoim are dead in their lifetimes, it does not say this about one who sins occasionally due to taivos). I have a lot more to say, but it is late.


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31. One last idea     7/3/09 - 12:50 AM
Matis G

I may have misunderstood something you said - you say that these avaryanim that you work with are aware of their human flaws - do you mean these are people who are still maaminim, but who feel overburdoned? If that's the case, then the hashkafa changes - there's a huge difference between a mumar letaivon and a mumar lehacheis. I do think that lemaysoh, the kanoim are shomer torah umitzvos. That is the ikkar - being a nice guy is important, but if one does this without it being a mitzvah, but because he says he wants to do it, it is no mitzvah, rather a mockery. One who is not mekayam mitzvos serves himself rather than the aibeshter - even if they're nice to you, and even if you can work with them, it means nothing and should not impact your decision of who is more dangerous, especially since chazal say differently - no one has th bechira to mess up our society. That is hashgacha, if there are to be challenges - we are supposed to be omed benisayon; there have been times when it was much more confusing, much more tempting to go off, and much easier to find excuses - the yatzer hora's job is to do what america calls entapment. To make it very difficult to be shomer torah umitzvos. I dont think you win the fight showing people that mushchasim, nebech as they might be, are 'moral' while those who may be truly moral, according to g-d's definition, are evil monsters because they have a yatzer hora for something you consider worse than other issurim.


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32. 29     7/3/09 - 8:59 AM
Anonymous

Hope it would not be presumptuous to add point '2d' to Rabbi Horowitz' outline of responses to Matis: One of the most repulsive aspects of the kanaim's behavior is that they commit their attrocities in the guise of religious garb and in the name of frumkeit. The distinction between what these kanaim are really about and what they claim they are about goes undetected in the eyes of most observers, and perhaps is not even readily apparent to the kanaim themselves. In maintaining their cover, they distort the true meaning of Torah and pervert its beautiful message entirely.

I would add on this note that throughout history, evil men committing the worst attrocities have claimed to be motivated by the will of their deity. From the Islamic jihad to the Christian Crusades to Adolph Hitler who wrote in Mein Kampf, 'by defending Germany against the Jew I am doing the work of the Lord'--history repeats itself. How very sad that we can be no different.

The aveiros Matis describes are terrible indeed, but the sinners do not claim they are fulflling the will of Hashem in their commission. Unlike the behavior of kanaim, these aveiros do not incite disillusioned masses to hate Yiddishkeit and reject Torah.


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33. Re comment #14     7/3/09 - 9:27 AM
Brooklyn Mom

There is HUGE value in the gedolim making a statement regarding the violent protests in Yerushalayim.

#1 the protests are not over. A strong statement by the gedolim would send a message to the rioters that the riots must stop NOW.

#2 A strong declaration from the gedolim would greatly increase Kvod Shamayim. It would make it clear to all, secular and frum alike, that those who respect HaShem & his Torah are not part of this outrageous behavior and are, in fact, strongly opposed to it. This is unfortunately not clear to the general public, and needs to be made VERY clear.

#3 The lack of a strong statement from the gedolim can be mistaken for silent agreement. When the gedolim are opposed to something, we generally hear about it. Remeber the Lipa concert, anyone?

Why are the gedolim silent?


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34. I don't get it     7/3/09 - 1:17 PM
Anonymous

Isnt' it obvious to all that the gedolim are against child sexual abue and dangerous violence towards others? Wouldn't it be beneath them to make a statement to that effect? What should they say? We don't believe in molesting children? We don't belive in using physical violence that can do serious bodily harm to another person? What do you want from them?

This is ridiculous. Obviously they have more important things to do, and more pressing issues to adress.


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35. 30 Matis     7/3/09 - 2:33 PM
Anonymous

Your comment, quoted below, would be experienced as insensitive to those who, unlike you, geuinely sense the extra burden packaged within many chumrahs. You write, "So what if they are uncomfortable with chumros? - it's not like any real rabbonim are making the weird ones; others seem to think that not having a TV is a chumra; plenty of otherwise frum teenagers think that being shomer negiah is a chumrah, and many otherwise frum women think the chiyuv deoraysoh of covering their hair is also a chumrah ..."

Chumros can be wonderful if we take them upon ourselves for a particular, thought-out reason; they are not something to impose upon others and expect them to accept with ease--they are, after all, called "chumros" for a reason.

The feeling you express that chumros are relative is the predictable outcome of the prevalent idea that it is no big deal to keep them and so everyone must comply to the same degree that they do with halachos that are not chumros at all. We do not distinguish between what is required and what is a nice extra--hence the confusion you describe.

Everyone must grow at their own pace and relate to their frumkeit in their own way. Blanket impositions ARE uncomfortable for many pple and the confusion about what is required lehalachah and what is a chumrah leads many, many good pple to simply throw out the baby with the bathwater.


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36.     7/3/09 - 5:53 PM
Benzion Twerski

#35 triggered a reaction that should set us on a learning expedition. Exactly what is the origin of a "chumra"? Is it truly an opinion to be machmir while there is another that is more lenient, is it considering more remote possibilities that something may be wrong, or is it a minhag that some keep as their tradition that others don't?

In exploring just a few things, it is unclear whether certain "chumros" are actually from sources that one can equate with Torah or tradition, while others are actually Torah prohibitions. The latter category would include bugs on vegetables and fruit as well as negiya. The covering of mirrors in the house of an avel sitting shiva seems to have no Torah source, and some postulate that this has been picked up from non-Jewish sources.

If we were more clear ourselves, we could teach better. To be moseir nefesh for something truly trivial can sometimes be a chiyuv (during times where shmad is a risk), and is sometimes foolish.


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37. to 35.     7/3/09 - 6:51 PM
Matis G

I think you misunderstood my point - I am not saying everyone should just go along with every chumrah 'they' come out with. I meant quite the opposite; that peope should be able to endure whatever pressures there are, and follow normal halachik practice irregardless. Yidden need to have some backbone, honestly, these are not children. If they valued their relationship with hashem and his torah they would be detered by some guy who looks at him funny in shul. It is very important to distinguish between chumrah and normal halachik practice. This is what we have rabonim for - the ones who create unecessary chumros are not the gedolim, or even poskim - therefore no one is obligated to listen to them. The practices of the amon ho'am do not make something obligatory. Sometimes it is best to shy away from what others do, assuming it is not being porush min hatzibur(i.e, for a good reason), for example - rav yisroel belsky shlit"a is recorded in the halachikcally speaking book as having paskened that one should not use a siddur or sefer to kiss the sefer torah when it is being taken down the aisles in shul. This is something many people do, and he is saying it is wrong - it is similarly wrong, he says, to daven with the sleeve o the jacket folded over the tefillin as many do - now, these are not unecessary, or insane chumros - these are his halachik psakim based on shas and poskim. The concert ban, and anything else which the bloggers go bonkers over, is similar.

Our seforim say that one who takes on excessive chumros will come to unreasonable kullos; this is very important for our community to realize. However there is a certain tendency that if im not 'machmir' i must be 'maikil', or 'centrist', or whatever other terms they use. This is not so. One must strive for 'emes', not 'left', or 'right', or whatever. One must strive to do the ratzon hashem. This means that when protesters burn garbage, beat up women for not dressing tznius, or anything else - this is not the razton hashem; this is people doing things in the name of G-d whih has no bases in G-d's laws. The same is true for those who give women bas mitzvos where they 'lain', rally to be able to give them aliyos, or who annul kiddushin and permit mamzerim to be entered into klal yisroel - a Jew must be motivated by a desire to serve hashem, not to serve people.

However, the chumrah explanation can also can serve as a nice excuse and a cop out to someone who goes off - I say this because I am convinced that anyone who had a decent high school education in a normal yeshiva would would know that just because one cannot keep up with even valid chumros, he is not to be considered a rasha - even one who makes mistakes in actual halacha is not a rasha; yet at the same time one cannot take an approach that one can grow at one's own pace and essentially do whatever he pleases if he feels he is not 'ready' - there are extremes here on both sides.

If others look down on him, well, that's their problem - they'd certainly look down on him more for abandoning yiddishkeit wholesale. My point was not that we should just follow every chumrah, but rather that lack of following them should not lead anyone who spent any time seriously studying mussar and hashkafa to go off the derech. If it does, it is due to a profoundly sad ignorance. If these people would simply speak to gedolim before going off, if the problem is as you describe it; frustration with chumros, then the problem would be solved very easily.

I think the problem lies thicker than that - the yatzer hora, contrary to what some frum psychologists would lead one to believe, is a real force in this world and in us - we need to train people to fight with it, and that this is in fact, the entire tachlis hachaim. Lie is not the bed of roses that we expect it to be - when our children learn mussar, they need to do it actively, not just at a shmuz. In slabodka, it is very well known that the bachurim would have a chavrusa who would wip them into shape in mussar, pointing out their middos in a way that helped them. In yeshiva of staten island, something similar is done, yet they don't have bachurim giving tochacha like they did back then. Mussar is to be practiced; I can guarantee that if one had a background in fighting his yatzer, in resisting taivos, in the freedom that is saying 'No', he would not go off the derech no matter what some idiots tell him is a chisaron in his frumkeit. If one does not keep a chumrah it says nothing about him, and if anyone judges him lekaf chov for it, then it says volumes about that person himself; anyone who would take such criticism seriously ought to learn the sugyas himself, and see what is in fact a chumra, and what is in fact, a chiyuv.

This, put together with the reasons I listed above, I think removes any notion that the chumros are forcing people off the derech - remember, there's always many reasons why people do things; there's the reason they say, and there's the real reasons. The fact that this might be the reason they express means very little if it does not withstand the test of logic(keeping shabbos isn't hard enough, keeping lo sasuru and sedorim is not hard? in comparison, these chumros are nothing).


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38. 36 Chumros :Aseh lecha Rov     7/3/09 - 7:09 PM
Anonymous

The general response that comes to mind in a conversation about halachos and chumros involves the centrality of having a personal rov in our lives who can offer INDIVIDUAL guidance on these sort of matters. It takes a baki in inyanei halachah who has a personal, sensitive understanding of what would work for a particular individual and his mishpacha to intuit what is appropriate when. The way I see it, a Rov can serve not only to define one's halachic obligations, but also to offer hadracha as to how a particular halachah may be best implemented in a particular home and set of circumstances. He can also encourage the acceptance of chumros or help pple understand why accepting a certain chumrah may be inappropriate for individual reasons. The key lies in the consideration of what an individual (and his home)is about and where he is holding, coupled, of course, with a proficient mastery of halachah. It is extremely dangerous to draw blanket guidelines about these matters for entire kehillos.

Also, while some halachos may represent the more chumradig shita, not all chumros have been incorporated into halacha. I think when we use the term chumrah in conversation, we generally refer to stringencies that are not generally mandated as halachah by rov poskim. Put another way, our halachic obligations represent a subset of chumros--and also a subset of kulos! Deriving the requirements of halachah seems like a very definite process with an integrity of its own--and part of that process may sometimes include what one's individual Rov paskens when the halachah seems unclear. It is this element of reliance upon poskim-of-the-day which lends halachah its dynamic quality and also broadens the spectrum of halachically acceptable shitos.


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39. To Matis     7/4/09 - 3:06 PM
David

ithink the most obvious answer to your questions is that Rabbi Horowitz is writing to the charedi community, not to those who are outside the charedi community or who have left the charedi community. He wants to draw the Torah world's attention to its problems, not to the problems of the koifrim and apikorsim, of whom we are already aware.

Rabbi Horowitz is not decrying apikorsus because that's not a problem plaguing the charedi community right now. It would be preaching to the choir. He's showing us problems in our midst that unfortunately too many people ignore and are not willing to publicly address and confront.


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40. vlo ata ben chorin lehivatel mimena     7/5/09 - 2:43 AM
Anonymous

Most of us read these words and cry for what we hold dear and for what we cannot affect. These askanim are not interested in Kiddush Hashem or in our opinion, so what's to do?

The answer can only be the "indirect effect". When DO they or those that can affect them sit up and listen? - When they want money. When people ask for donations - for schools, yeshivas etc, they should be required to explain their positions vis a vis the demonstrations etc, and you should check them out - and let them know about it.

If there positions are against the ends of Torah and Am Yisrael, you have NO HETER to support them. There are plenty good places who need your money. And you have an obligation to do so Lehagdil Torah V'adir


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41. Another objection     7/5/09 - 2:44 AM
Matis G

I take issue also with your statement about the Nachal brigades - torah authorities as diverse as Rav Ovadiah Yosef, whom the dati leumi look to as their posek, have written against them. I do not think they are, as you claim, an answer to a communal issue, but rather are another expression of the nationalist ideology gedolei yisroel have already told us to stay away from. See yalkut yosef, hilchos kivud av ve'aim, vol 2. Page 272 - rav ovadiah's son says that many gedolei torah 'first among them my ather, shlit"a" opposed the nachal brigades. I take offense to calling those who oppose them 'zealots' - they are following poskim and a mesorah of the vast majority of gedolei yisroel, ranging from rav hirsch(in choreb, numerous times), the chofetz chaim(quoted by rav shach in michtavijm umaamarim) to reb chaim brisker, to the lubavitcher rebbe rashab(in a famous letter), reb elchonon(who referred to nationalism as avodah zara, with religious nationalism, as religion mixed with avodah zara, in kovetz maamarim as well as ikvesa dimishecha), Rav henskin(rites that he opposed the creation of a medina with all of his heart, in kol kisvei rav henkin), the steipler(who writes in kryna deigrasah that the medina was 'bevadai, metchiah shelo kadin'), The satmer rebbe writes that in the beginning, the majority of gedolei yisroel were on his side - reb ahron is quoted in the journal hapardes as being opposed to the creation of a medina as well, plus the chazon ish quoted in sefer maysoh ish, and many others, who opposed nationalism, religious or otherwise. It is one thing to rely on one's rebbbeim(such as rav kook, rabbi hershel shachter, rav zimmerman, or rabbi JB soloveitchik), it is another for you to impose their minority view on then rest of us.


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42. to david     7/5/09 - 2:46 AM
Matis G

I was not referring davka to this article when I asked my question, but a different statement made by rabbi horowitz in an article about violence and women, compared to this article and those like it.


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43. This is why I TOOK THE KEPPA OFF and became Hiloni "Traditional"     7/5/09 - 4:53 AM
Harry - Petach Tikva

The entire faith has been overtaken by fanatic parasites.


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44. To Harry - Petach Tikva     7/5/09 - 10:38 AM
EG

I don’t quite understand. You have a problem with fanatics. Worthy of discussion and debate. In what way does this entitle you to pick and choose which mitzvos you will keep? Hashem gave us 613 mitzvos plus Torah Sheb’al Peh. There are those who violate certain things. Does this entitle me to heave the whole thing out the window because of some who cross some lines?

Your keepah belongs on your head. And whoever is breaking any of the mitzvos, including chilul Hashem, needs to do teshuvah. But that is purely bein adam laMakom – between that violator and his Creator. It does not impact my choice of remaining true to Hashem myself. That is not under the control of any other human being, and my obligation cannot waver.


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45. 44     7/5/09 - 12:35 PM
Anonymous

Your response is typical of the kind that drive people like Harry away. Judgemental, critical, not a hint of empathy. Dont u realize that there is a huge emotional factor here that is more imp to address than the logically argumentative tone you chose? I can promise your way will bring back not one lost soul. Warmth, understanding, and acceptance is the only way 2 go.


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46.     7/5/09 - 2:54 PM
EG

Anonymous #45:

I have been involved in kiruv for years, including a helping portion of work with “noshrim”. I am well versed in the warmth, understanding, and acceptance, thank you. I have no problem with making nice to kids at risk or others who have left the derech.

But none of this includes approval of the rebellion in which Torah is rejected just because of those who are hypocrites and advertise Torah while breaking its rules. I reject hypocrisy just the same as they do, and I am disgusted with the two faced derech of preaching “ne’imus” while behaving with violence.

I have listened to various people trying to convince me that the chucking of one’s values of Torah and menchlichkeit for the sake of Torah is somehow considered mesiras Nefesh. I join with the rebellious people in condemning that which deserves condemnation.

But the message needs to be said, and loudly, that throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not okay. I am not being argumentative. I am engaging Harry on the real issue for him. It is not the abhorrent behavior that is flaunted in the name of Kidush Hashem. It is his inability to fix the hypocrisy of the “system” and choosing to extricate himself to a lifestyle where he finds life freer for him.

The issue is his rebellion and rejection of Torah, not the misappropriation of “Torah mandates” by fanatics. That is why I invited him to return the kippah to his head, and to see the wrongdoers as the problem, not him. They need to change, not him.


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47. Rabbanim can't control them? I used to think that....     7/5/09 - 3:05 PM
Sarit - Ramat Bet Shemesh

Someone wrote: "Do you really think that the visceral violence unleashed under the guise of protests le'maan kedushas Shabbos can be quelled by Rabbinic regulation?"

I used to accept that excuse - until in my local town of Ramat Bet Shemesh the rioting was obediently curtailed for 3 hours every evening so that women could tend to the mitzvah of mikvah without enduring rioters' awareness. And this was at the behest of some local rabbanim.....


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48. To anonymous     7/5/09 - 3:29 PM
Matis G

I think this comment ignores history. Rav Avigdor Miller, whom I consider basically my rebbe in terms of hashkafa, was the personification of an Ish Emes. His kiruv approach was the opposite of what you say - he succeeded in not only making people frum, but fiery bnei torah, total ovdei hashem without compromise and non-Jewish values. His methods work.

Some might not be able to accept what he says; people are people, and have emotions - you need to be warm too. But you can't be warm and fuzzy when someone asks an intellectual question - imagine a guy in beis medrash saying 'oh, no, that's not a kasha, how can you, (with tears in his eyes), ask a kasha on such a heilige sefer? Now of course, no one is like that. Torah hashkafa abhors such an attitude - lo habayshan lomeid. Fire em' away with all you got, is what the torah demands, in order to learn.

However, touchy-feeliness works sometimes. One needs to know who he is working with. Not to make blanket statements, but kiruv workers in Eretz Yisroel will tell you that to be mekarev the ashkenazi boys, open the gemora, the rest does it on its own.

For sefardim, teach them the glorious, saintly ways of our gedolim, show them the side of yiddishkeit that would be termed more 'spiritual' in today's lexicon, chassidus, kaballah-oriented things - this impacts them more.

Of course, everyone will need both at some point - the emotional needs of a person need to be satisfied along with the intellectual, but there are different starting points for different people.

The Chofetz Chaim once just said the word 'Shabbos' with tears running down his cheeks to a man who no longer kept Shabbos; after this encounter, he was so moved he began keeping Shabbos again.

Different people require different reactions and approaches in different scenarios. But the one thing Rav Avigdor Miller did that set him apart from many others who speak or write for the public was that he never, ever drifted from the emes. He was there for people too; ask any of his talmidim. His ahavas yisroel was amazing - yet he still, with that ahavas yisroel, loved the people too much to let them have apikorsus hashkafos(there are such things - hashkafa is not a free-for-all) and believe wrong things.

He denounced everything deviant from zionism, to modern orthodoxy, liberalism, feminism, evolution - he used his sharp mind to logically destroy these baseless ideologies. He did not simply give out chulent and invite these people for Shabbos meals to get them to give up the apikorsus or keep the mitzvos. Although that is a part of kiruv, you also need to grasp the person's mind in a way that will not let him leave - the clarity of knowing the truth when it is presented in the way Rav Avigdor Miller did is enough to keep someone frum even when he has to give up the girls and treif, and be a mentsch.

I do not think I was being argumentative - firm, maybe, but I don't think I insulted anyone - I quoted a Torah authority that disagrees with Rabbi Horowitz's call to accept the nachal brigades, I do not think I insulted anyone personally. I certainly said nothing about this Harry person - I feel very bad for him; he honestly makes me feel very lucky I got into hashkafa at an early age and was able to form my mind in a way that such questions are moot.

I'm sad to say, but the reason 'Harry' picks and chooses between mitzvos 'he'(who gave him this authority? G-d certainly didn't) likes, and ones he does not like, is not because of zealots doing things against the Torah. The most fiery gaon is also always the warmest - Reb Ahron was a lion in shiur, but anyone who knew him knew how warm and kind he was. Not a single one of the ones being called zealots are Torah authorities.

They should be taken no more as representatives of klal yisroel or Torah than the rabbis who say that the arabs are amalek, the 'pluralists', or the feminists. There exits ignorance, stupidity, chutzpah, and outright kefirah in our community, Hashem yirachem.

I urge Harry to meet with some representatives of Judaism, some gedolei yisroel, and forget all of the lashon hora that is said about them - you don't need to align with the zealots to wear that kippah. Wear that kippah for the Torah which is against the zealots! Be proud of who you are, your spiritual stature, your national and individual destiny - you're a 'part' of G-d!

Gedolim reach out and warm people's hearts - Rav Schwab wrote a famous letter, pleading with the modern orthodox camp to abandon their ties to apikorsim, to discard the anti-elements from their idelogies, and to rejoin us(what he calls 'the real modern orthodoxy, he previously says that modern orthodoxy is in this generation, old and outdated, and no longer can claim to be modern) This is even validated by non-Jewish historians who call this era 'post-modern'.

When gedolim chastise people who are deviating from normative Judaism, a pattern occurs. There's modern orthodoxy, which affirms the yud-gimel ikarim, and which acknowledges and firmly believes in the authority of shas and poskim: and then there's the way gedolim deal with Reform. Example: There is a series of letters from Rav Yaakov Emden a correspondence between him and Moses Mendelhsohn.(I would like this to serve as a complete refutation of a certain 'torah thought' journal's article on this subject, asserting that Rav Yaakov had a true friendship with Mendelsohn chas veshalom) His last letter ends with a statement that says, basically 'I have just been trying to be mekarev you all this time, do not think I do not know what your agenda is - I know now that you are beyond this point, that you even own a dog{Rav Yaakov assered owning dogs beclal, this was not just leshitaso, owning a dog was never a Jewish thing, as dogs are very tumah-dik in general, but this is a side point, it is a shame many shomer shabbos Jews today see nothing wrong with it)" We cannot form our Torah opinions or Torah knowledge(this was my opinion, obviously, I am no rov) based on what others 'feel', or even what they believe. Therefor to say I am wrong because I may have unknowingly, unwittingly, turned someone off chas veshalom, can be used at shas and poskim which contain many things that can turn certain people off if not understood properly, or if a person has biases.

Check out the first biur halacha on the shesh mitzvos temidos, under lo sasuru. There's an interesting halacha not many people seem to care about anymore, and certainly one that is not common in many circles - that it is assur to even think about apikorsus - and what is apikorsus? Well, he says quite clearly it is anything that is hepech daas torah. Basicaly, anything against chazal, rishonim, achronim, down to our own gedolei hador, since chazal say the leaders of a generation have ruach hakodesh. To base one's hashkafas on what will offend people, vs. what the emes, and ratzon hashem is, is flatly stupid, and spineless. We don't have to, and we actually cannot teach people things that will upset them or make them non-religous chas veshalom - however that has nothing to do with our policy as a whole. being 'bainoni beshita'(as the Chazon Ish put it) and saying we need to communally make concessions and compromises for the good of the weak who will be lost if we follow Torah-true Judaism, is itself against Judaism. We're supposed to follow the ratzon Hashem. If people don't like it, let them first get a good background in Torah thought - we have seen, baruch Hashem, that observance within the Mizrachi community has increased when they increased their Torah study - and great for them!

Remember, one can disagree, even say the other opinion is dead wrong, without talking about the person - we all make mistakes. We all(including myself) can write lists of our mistakes and flaws, but none of that has to do with what right and wrong are - they exist independent of what we do, they are the ratzon Hashem.

The concept of 'sheva paamim tzadik yipol, vekam', is used by Rav Hutner in an absolutely must-read letter to a bochur to mean that because of the falls a tzadik has, he rises - we all fall sometimes, the trick is to know to get back up and fight the next day, to be omed benisayon, that is the essence of our existence. Please, Harry, don't give up that fight - you are not beholden to the zealots, it is not 'too late', remember, among the first thing the mechaber writes in Shulchan Aruch is not to worry about the scoffers - do what Hashem wants, and you have no one else to bother with or answer to.


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49. Re ;Judgemental     7/5/09 - 3:41 PM
Matis G

Judgmental is a term used nowadays to mean that if you are against someone's ideas, if you think someone else is wrong, or that you think they did something that is assur, you are judging them. This is not so. Most of what we learn is muttar vs. assur in the end - that we need to know what is torah and what is not, what is muttar, and what is assur, is nothing new, nor can anyone call it being judgmental. When suddenly, out of bias, contempt, lack of faith, or ignorance, a group of people begin rebelling against Hashem and His Torah - suddenly, to say they are wrong is judgmental.

There's a logical fallacy here; you are doing exactly what you accuse me of. I am one of many who engages in something you call being 'judgmental'. You say that these people are wrong, hence, you are being judgmental yourself, in saying that someone else is (gasp!) wrong.

I think the main thing here is that I never once put down a single individual Jew. My criticism of certain deviant movements is not aimed at anyone specifically, and what I said is what gedolei yisroel have been saying, from reb ahron onward - I'd like to see you call him judgmental, chas veshalom. We need to be telling children that while we do not, under any circumstance, approve of what they do, we love them as we love all Jews, even those who make mistakes - the competition that has infiltrated our society is very non-Jewish element which needs to be stopped - it creates a feeling that if you're not a tzadik ovrnight you're a rasha whos'se going to hell forever - this is goyishe, Christian thinking, and has not a single basis in anything Jewish. That would be judgmental. To say, for instance 'ploni is going to gehinnom', or to say 'plony is a rasha', would be judgmental. To enlighten people to things they may not like to hear but are part of the ratzon hashem is NOT being judgmental. Kids need to know what the ratzon hashem is, even if they will not always be able to follow it, they should know that they are here to fight, to struggle, be omed benisayon - THAT is what makes one the bigger tzadik. The more taivos, the more challenges, the stronger soul the person has, and the more hashem loves him when he tries to fight, even when he falls - and that achievement and success are only secondary - this is hashkafa 101, and it needs to be taught, and fast.


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50. to matis g.     7/5/09 - 6:41 PM
benjy

I really enjoy reading ur comments. u are unusually thorough ,solid & clear in hashkafa. however one [small] factual mistake. u write in comment #41 about r. ovadia "the datileumi look to as their posek". this is not true. perhaps u meant rabbi mordechai eliyahu.


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51. re 49     7/5/09 - 8:14 PM
yoni

Near as I understand "chazal" never really refers to achronim. . . achronim are not in that sort of category and can really be freely disagreed with, possibly excluding the principle nossei keilim (ie taz, MA, shach, B"sh, Ch'M etc.)


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52.     7/5/09 - 9:09 PM
yoni.

And if he will mention the halacha that one must listen to them even when they tell you left is right and right is left, it should be noted that the mefarshim ascribe this strictly to the sanhedrin, because it could make halacha and decide between dissenting opinions...

No other body possesses this degree of authority C"V


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53. to Matis     7/5/09 - 10:57 PM
tootired

So lets see, after reading Matis's incendiary comments, he went from

1) attacking R Horowitz to 2) defending child molesters 3) defending rioters 4) promoting never ending chumras 5) putting down other forms of kiruv 6) took the opportunity to bash zionism 7) spoke with great disdain for other Rabbonim who represnt a different mehalech than his own narrow one

It is also apparent that he condemns most of klal yisroel, or anyone doing aveiros. He also preaches an intolerance that Boruch H, people like R' Horowitz (who dont cloak themselves in anonymity) fight against.

It seems "Matis" thinks he knows better than anyone, and at the same time thinks he is a better person for that.

It is very suspect that Matis obessively defends child moletesters and hates the bloggers who have taken some of them down almost singlehandedly....hmmm..

Also, the obsession with 'apikorsus' is intersting but it seems that anything different than what "Matis thinks - he probably considres apikorsus

His comments seems to be no more than a rant of a very angry self righteous person.

After all if Matis were so sure of himself he wouldnt hide himself in anonymity on someone elses website.

Why not tell us your name? Oh, and maybe you should lighten up.


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54. The truth comes out     7/6/09 - 12:43 AM
Matis G

Those who denigrate what I said based on, of course, no sources or logic, miss the point. Because parts of klal yisroel(incidentally, it is not 'most' of klal yisroel), believ ein something, or accept something, or do something, does not make it right. Judaism follows G-d, not the people. The hamon ho'am have no right to tell me what Judaism is - gedolei yisroel do. Now, I took the opportunity to 'bash'(actually, I just clarified the opinions of a diverse group of gedolei yisroel, I could have said much worse things, that were also said by gedolim, but I didn't see the point), for a reason. Namelty, to show that one could be against an organiation rabbi horowitz is apparently in favor of, without being a 'fanatic', or a 'zealot'.

If a list of gedolim that I mentioned above(which I should mention includes far more than the above - that was just a brief list) makes me 'narrow', then I think we are dealing with semantics.

Let's clarify some things here. I choose the unanimous opinion of the largest selection o gedolim, past and present, who reject zionism. There were a few talmidei chachamim, and there still are, who either do not oppose it, or who are even for it. That is a Miut(minority) - if anything, following then could be considered narrow in light of the overwhelming opposition. I see no basis in logic to say I am being 'narrow', as no halachik opinion I stated is not to be found in the mainstream poskim and leaders of klal yisroel. If there's something you don't like, then let's hear some valid points. I think I already mentioned the fact that there were/are rabbis who did not hold of (one element) of what I said - but I do not think you will find any poskim who allow, say, believing apikorsus.

Self-righteousness is when one decides on his own that he is, righteous, as the name implies, and then tries to force his views on others, or who looks down on those who disagree. I think what I wrote above is quite different. I am stating the words of our gedolei yisroel. If you do not like them, then that is your problem, but it hardly makes me self-righteous.

It also does not make me self-righteous if I say tat a child molester is not any worse than a murderer, whom we lose no mitzvah to love, and whom still is a part of klal yisroel. That being said, he is dangerous(see my post above), and no one in their right mind would condone the(alleged) protection that supposedly goes on. The sad reality is that many of these allegations are simply not true, many are, and the states are very high. Secular law is quick to believe victims, and is therefore relatively biased - I do not know what the psak that everyone keeps saying beshem rav elyashiv is true or not, but assuming it is, it changes nothing. You call them police when you know for sure, just like beis din doesnt issue rulings based on shaky evidence - care needs to be taken, and unfortunately there exists an extreme, call it 'zealous' attitude that some have in our community, that no matter what happens, any action taken against them is perfectly justified and if you disagree, you're shielding sex offenders, you hate children, etc.., all of course ridiculous.

I stand by what I said. Jews have yatzer horas. I know of people who molested children who did teshuvah, went to rehab centers, evntually gained mechila from their victims(who incidentally, did not leave yiddishkeit because of it). I think there is a definite disparity here between how we deal with one set of sinners, as opposed to others. This was all I was trying to bring out originally. If you're going to scream from the rooftops about child molesters, go on whitchunts to destroy the lives of what could be innocent rebbeim, give onshim the torah never mentions(i.e., suing in a secular court) even when the rebbe is guilty, and so on - then you'd better be just as loud about the other destroys of souls, apikorsim, whom there seemed to be to be a great tolerance for(this is why I broguht rabbi horowitz's comments tat they are 'moral', 'right-brained', and so forth. these comments saddened me, if I understod them the right way. hopefully I did not. I am still waiting for rabbi horowitz to explain these statements, compared with his impassioned discourses on those who are still shomer torah umitzvos.)

I am not trying to 'defend' child molesters. I am however, waiting for something in the middle between the witch hunters and the ones who make believe nothing happens, or who defend them. They have yatzer hora's too, and are Jews, they did a tremendous sin, but that does not give us the right to, frankly self-righteously, destroy them as human beings. Jail is not a punishment in the torah. It does nothing got goyim, much less Yidden for whom it is spiritual poison. I doubt this will help anyone for a child molester to rot in Jail. Get him help - if you're going to help victims who dont even follow the torah, then certainly help yidden get help who do follow it - there are ways of treating child molesters, ways that work, combined with the mussar they already are familiar with. They have shots which men can take which totally eliminates taivos for a while - they have theraputic techniques. I think it is cruel and anti-torah to throw them in jail and forget about them as if they are not our brothers. I dont think I've seen this attitude yet. If that makes me self-righteous, well, I really don't care.


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55. My name     7/6/09 - 1:02 AM
Matis G

I have no qualms about giving out my name; although i give out more of it then you do. I'm no one known in the community, put it that way - however people do know a family that has the same, uncommon last name as I do, and the hatred that people spew at me here would perhaps hurt them if I were to give it out. Get some sleep if you're tired - I don't think I'm any more obsessed with apikorsus than is the mishnah berurah that I quoted above. If you can find me a source indicating otherwise(you wont), go and try. Petty insults like that though, are not going to get you anywhere except serve as indication of the weakness of your position.

Re; disagreeing with gedolim. There is a discussion in the poskim about this - the vilna gaon is quoted in the back of nefesh hachaim by reb chaim volozhiner as saying that in his time, one may not argue beyond the rema with a sevara, or beyond the rosh with a raya. Other psim disputed this, and held that the gap(in those times, and a little later) was much closer to us. This is also talking about people who know what they're talking about - not the hamon ho'am, and not even average talmidei chachamim. For me, someone who is no lamdan by any definition, to argue with Reb Chaim Kanievsky is foolish, chutzpahdik, and an insult to kovod hatorah. If I were Rav Elyashiv, that would not be so. For me to disagree however, with the chofetz chaim, might in fact be assur. I saw in a likut sefer a bunch of deos about how far back we can argue - I'd like to get the exact mekoros, but the span of time in many of them that we are allowed to disagree with was not too long. We have times when rosh yeshivos will disagree with their predecessors, but these are when they are within the same time period, roughly, or when they are such big gedolim that they are able to - reb ahron for instance, one time disagreed(not clear, the lashon of the biography is a 'hasaga', i dont know if he help fast to that opinion) with the chasam sofer, who lived a long time before him. These instances are rare though, and only occur with the leaders of our generation.

Just to explain my understanding of the 'geder' of apikorsus, here's an example:

The divrei chaim brings an issur raised in yoreh deah, 105 - a rebbe in a cheder said that while the perush of the ohr hachaim on chumash was a great perush, it was not written with ruach hakodesh. This caused quite a controversy in the cheder, and they came to the divrei chaim for a psak. He said that he cannot give a definite psak lemaysoh if such a thing is apikorsus, without hearing both sides of the din torah, but theoretically, such a statement would be apikorsus, since chazal say that the leaders of the generation of ruach hakodesh, and this person disagrees.

I do not think I am being 'fanatical', or 'obsessed' with apikorsus. Maybe you're obsessed with accepting everyone's opinion, in the non-jewish ideological free-for-all that has seeped into our community - deos can be worse than actions.

If one is an apikores, he is far worse than a murderer. I know of no din for a murderer such as moridin velo maalin, the loss of the mitzvah to love him, and other such things chazal said about apikorsim. Apikorsim are viewed as the most vile beings on the planet - if we are going to be passionate about child molesters, we should be at least equally outraged about apikorsim, since the way chazal describe them are beyond, as far as i know(if anyone can show otherwise without hurling insults, 'd appreciate it) murderers or those who violate lo sono, as well as giluy arayos.(it could be that a child molester violates all three, depends on the circumstances).


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56. rabbonim     7/6/09 - 1:09 AM
Matis G

Which rabbonim did I speak of with disdain? I think I referred the zionist rabbis as a minority - if that's disdainful, then your kovod hatorah must be lightyears ahead of mine.

If you meant the rabbis who spew apikorsus, well, that's not my fault if they chose to spew apikorsus. Feminism is ani-torah, so is pluralism. So far, the best defense I've heard is 'we dont want to be spectators(watching you do what you're supposed to do as opposed to taking time out of what we are supposed to do to copy men). The whole thing is selfish, frankly; because some 'feel' that this is the way to express their 'spirituality'(remember, tumah is also 'spiritual'), even though it cntradicts mesorah and the ways the torah and its leaders have set out for women. It teaches pretty much the same thing as reform, that the laws are good when I agree with them, but if I dont, well, we just need to bend here and there, to fit my square peg into a round hole, and make my avodah-zara hashkafa fit into yiddishkeit.

I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable. The zionist rabbonim I quoted above would agree to that(check out Rabbi hershel shachter's teshuvah about women's prayer groups), as a matter of fact, any legimitate talmid chacham who is not biased by secular worldviews would agree to that. The fact that someone who has smicha runs around and says things against the torah does not make it right, nor does it make me have to have respect for him(bemakom chillul hashem, ain chokin kivud rav).


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57. to benjy     7/6/09 - 1:11 AM
Matis G

He's another posek they look to, but so is chacham ovadiah - although his views on saying hallel on yom haatzmaut(he says not to) are not practiced by large segments of that community(many in fact do not say it). Actually, I should have included rabbi eliyahu in my list of the minority of poskim who were for zionism; my mistake.


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58. lighten up?     7/6/09 - 1:13 AM
Matis G

Hmm, I should stop following the mesorah of the majority of klal yisroel because it upsets you? Sorry, no can do. I don't think the opinions of gedolim need to be 'lightened'; that's a bit chutzpahdik if you ask me.


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59. to yoni     7/6/09 - 1:23 AM
Matis G

The obligation to listen to the gedolim is not because of the passuk you mention 'yamin usmul' - that is in fact going on the sanhedrin. However, the fact that the leaders of the generation have ruach hakodesh, provides the reason(there are other mekoros too). This is not a popular opinion nowadays, since there are people who look at Judaism socilogically - as in, klal yisroel used to do certain things, and therefore this tells you what Judaism is. Not so. Seforim tells us what Judaism is. Our leaders do. The actions of misguided or misinformed Jews do not change the halacha. Same with the concept of daas torah - there were always Jews who unfortunately did not heed it, and because of them, we have people saying it is a new thing to listen to the gedolei hador, that, chas veshalom, the gedolim in the 20th century concocted the idea(this is the height of motzi shem ra).

I think that likut sefer I mentioned above should serve as a good outline for how to understand the mechanics of daas torah; it's not a davar pashut. I cannot remember the name right now, but any large seforim store should have it - just ask for a likut about arguing with previous generations; I know the beginning has all the quoted from the gemora in shabbos 'im hadoros rishonim hiyu malachim, etc..', and the midrashim and zohars which talk about it as well - it then goes on to the halachos about daas torah; shouldn't be hard to find.


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60. cont'd     7/6/09 - 1:24 AM
Matis G

The people who told yoni this idea have the right hashkafa; just the wrong mekor(he's not alone, I had a rebbe once who told me the same thing). It's a shame; it can lead one to think our mesorah is weak enough to be shattered by a pashut pshat in the pasuk.


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61. Kol Hakavod to Rav Yakov Horowitz     7/6/09 - 6:49 AM
Doniels - Yerusholayim - doniels@gmail.com

It's almost chutzpa to even say "great article" to Rav Yakov Horowitz; but Hakoras Hatov is a Jewish trait.

As a father of a kid in the Nachal Chariedi I just wanted to say that it would a do world of good for many kids to go there.

It's sad that our society sees it as a Holy Mission to keep everybody out of the army; including those boys who are no longer involved in learning.

The Nachal Chariedi takes kids who are tired with the system, gives the a chance for a Parnoso, helps them mature and usually gives them back their will to open a Sefer.

We need more people like Rav Yakov Horowitz who are prepared to get up and remind us that not all Chareidim are frum, and not everything they declare is Torah.

Kol Hakavod.


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62. to Matis     7/6/09 - 11:28 AM
too tired

Matis - You obviously have way way too much time on your hands...

What's perhaps most disturbing about you, is that you just won't give up your defending of child molesters. Your excuses and reasoning have all been disproved time and again, yet you are seriously incorrect when you say that most accusations are false, people can do teshuva (irrelevant) and hopelessly naive about sex matters in general...

R' Horowitz who has been dealing with this issue can better educate you on just how terrible molestation is, the ruined lives as a result and that there is no cure at all for the perpetrators.

Nevertheless your demeaning and condescending attitude towards others who hold differently than you, is in no way backed up by Gedolim. You do not speak for Gedolim and you are in no position of authority on any of these topics as we see from your posts above, to tell us what they say. There are shivim panim ltorah. Ever heard of Eilu veilu?

Interestingly enough, for someone who puts Gedolim on such a high pedestal. You certainly have not heeded what they said about using the internet. Why are you on the web to begin with, after all the Gedolim banned it?(!) Sounds a little hypocritical to me, thereby cancelling out anything which you have to say.


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63. Only answering so that people don't get the wrong idea - to too-tired     7/6/09 - 2:18 PM
Matis G

I'm, frankly, too tired.

I do not need to be educated about sexual offenders - I don't think that blindly lapping up what scientists admit to have no evidence for, in the face of our mesorah(people have bechira), is unjustified. How would you possible know that teshuva does not work, because some idiot said 'i did teshuvah' and went back to it? does that cancel out his teshuvah? does that make it worthless? You;re very harsh on people, try looking at things differently. There's more to the cheshbon that what seems on the outside - my being on the internet is permitted by rab shmuel vosner(for a tachlis, this case being that my father has it for parnosa, and I live at home during the summer), as there is someone in my room(a shomer), as well as an iron-clad filter(not even images are displayed except for sites that I make exceptions for, and problematic sites are filtered altogether) - these are the two conditions he sets forward to allow use of the internet. Plus, even though you might disagree(so far the best rayos you've brought are words of goyim and those who imitate them) however baselessly(everything I said had a source as far as i know, if you'd like to show a rational reason why I'm wrong, instead of saying that my ideas about offenders have been disproven(by whom? children who grow up, drop yiddishkeit, and run for cash? goyishe scientists without any evidence (they admit to this, that their theories are just that, theoretical)? Has one thing you said had an iota of mesorah-true thought to it?

I think what i said makes sense according to our mesorah, that people sin and have bechira. This is no less of a sin than anything else. Sexual addictions, or other psychological problems, do not remove the quality of sin from something, much to the dismay of pscyhologists, who stand to gain considerably from dismissing this point - if they admitted that people sin and need mussar, chassidus, whatever they need spiritually - they'd lose a lot of money that they are given or cranking out crackpot theories.

Their(goyishe researchers) answer is not that there is a problem and we can cure - they cowardly say that there is no answer, and that people are stuck that way - I'm sorry to say, but no one is stuck sinning, and if he is, then his bechira is to be in a place where there are no children(say, have a job that does not involve interacting with children, and spend the rest of the time in beis medrash, socializing would be rare though) to prevent himself from losing control - this too is bechira.

Why you swallow up the rhetoric and baselessness of the scientific community is beyond me - maybe you're too tired to be debating, since all you did so far is defame me without a source, logical response, or anything, just blind faith in the saints of science-ism. There are teshuvos in the poskim which talk about child molestation(in the achronim, I think the times of the ohr hachaim, but I do not remember) - I think they knew about people pretty well, and about the human mind(ever hear of reb yisroel selanter?) - the torah teaches one the essence of the human if one is on the high enough level. To my knowledge, nowhere does that teshuvah say that it is uncontrollable.

Desire for children is no different than for women, the only difference is that men know that children will not be able to resist them, and that they will most likely not get caught. These men are simply baalei taiva, in my opinion(I see no reason to say differently), and all the psychological reasons for child molestation are present in the drive for women as well(wanting to be in control, for instance). As or the not growing up thing, I think it's freudian nonsense - not a drop of scientific evidence supports such a hypothesis, and it contradicts reason - if one would want to be as a child, he would relate to children as one relates to a child, i.e., games, toys, joking, etc.. - one needs to work on everything from lo sasuru, to learning about taiva in general, and to make gedorim and siyagim.

Mussar is a most enlightening experience, you should try it sometime, I think if you did you'd see why I have so much faith in it - I have my own story, one not too different from child molesters(although one much less harmful, yet similar in principle, actually, probably worse in principle), if you'd like I'll post it, but to say the least, I know that mussar conquers all if one uses it the right way(except of course for conditions that are akin to physical problems, like OCD(even though it does help to some extent), manic depression, retardaton, down syndrome ,etc.., please do not misunderstand this statement.

I don't demonize people like what I've seen here - I look at child molesters the same way I look at baalei lashon hora, although al pi halacha they must be treated differently, not necessarily because of the severity of their averos, but because of sakanas nefashos, which does not exist in other areas. This difference in halacha has nothing to do with the rhetoric people say about them - they are humans, Jews, children of G-d, a piece of G-d - how dare you condemn them?


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64. a little about myself     7/6/09 - 2:26 PM
Matis G

Eilu ve'eilu does not mean everyone's right - that's pluralistic nonsense. Eilu ve'eilu means that there are many valid mesoras, or ideas, in torah(even if they seem to contradict to us). This means that both the shach and taz are right. It means that both the rambam and the raavad are right. It does not mean that a guy in yeshiva or a baalhabaos, or even one with smicha is right when he disagrees with gedolei yisroel, or makes up his own stuff.

It also does not mean that scientists constitute a 'shitoh'.

fair enough?


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65. to doniels     7/6/09 - 2:32 PM
Matis G

Like to show us any poskim who approve of your approach? Chacham Ovadia does not. Why army service? Why not parnosah? Why not be a normal baalhabus?.

You can make anything sound good, especially to a kid who doesnt want to learn and might have an urge to have some nice achzarius-dige 'action'.

The fact that an organization claims to do good does not take away from the fact that poskim(as ar as I know, the one in writing is rav ovadiah, i do not know of any others) disapprove of it. The amount of nationalism involved in it makes it problematic as well. The fact that it calls itself charedi does nothing to justify its cause.

If there are poskim who agree with what nachal does, please let us know - otherwise, I'm going to assume that rav ovadiah's psak is just being ignored.


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66. answering to Matis to insure that narishkeit does not go unanswered     7/6/09 - 4:02 PM
too tired

Utter nonsense... You said..."Desire for children is no different than for women" A pedophiles desire to gratify himself with a child is the same as mans inborn desire to be with a woman???! Are you kidding?

Such comments demonstrate that in your hate and contempt for anything secular you are clueless as to the nature of the beast, and you would rather excuse away such deviant behavior when performed by chariedi look alikes... And by the way, a child molester may in fact have NO bechira. He (or she)is a sick pedophile which needs to be locked up. Teshuva, while laudable, is irrelevant. Ask R' Horowitz.

Your shito of not being mekabel anything from a source other than what you define to be a Gadol and your knee jerk derision you have for any science is foolish and laughable. Ever here of chochmo bagoyim taamin?

With all due respect, your internet filter might as well block this site as well, as R' Horowitz is shoel aitza and works hand in hand with psychological professionals all the time.. (you know the ones whom you call "goyish" and other names...)

I suppose that means you wont see a doctor or send your kids to one because after all, they practice science which is of course all a bunch of kefira in your eyes. And you dont want to be "imitating the goyim" as you say by accepting what an "apikores" lowly doctor has to say.

I guess the next time you need a strep test, you can go to Rav Wosner. I didnt know he administers throat cultures.


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67. response to Matis who defames Chayalim     7/6/09 - 4:24 PM
tootired

MATIS wrote: "You can make anything sound good, especially to a kid who doesnt want to learn and might have an urge to have some nice achzarius-dige 'action'. "

Is that what you think of all the Chayalim that defend EY which allows people to study Torah? Nice Hakaras Hatov there...

I suppose all the bnei yisroel who fought against Amalek are to be condemned as well?

FYI - the kids (and adults) who dont want to learn and have some "achzariyus'dige action" are the ones currently rioting in Meah Shearim.

Which is what this thread should be about. Im glad you got us back on track. Thank you Matis


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68. back to the beginning with Matis     7/6/09 - 6:12 PM
Sarit - Ramat Bet Shemesh

Too-tired, you found it! Matis is not obsessing about apikorsus. If you look at his first few posts you'll see he thinks it isn't apikorsus at all:

I know....that there are students in brooklyn college who bedavka go there because they want to be around the pritzus in brooklyn college ... there are many, many teenagers here who do things far worse than burn garbage.

Secular society is appealing to a middle-aged man whose wife isn't what she used to be...

So now he's back to the fundamental theme:

and all the psychological reasons for child molestation are present in the drive for women as well

This is an example of someone who knows way too much about certain issurim...

As the charedi children say in Eretz Yisroel - ICHZAH!


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69. diapers, really     7/6/09 - 6:13 PM
Sarit - Ramat Bet Shemesh

By the way for the record the last time the secular press accused charedim of throwing soiled diapers at people they were lying - is it possible at least that detail is fabricated?


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70. More rhetoric     7/6/09 - 7:36 PM
Matis G

I love how illogical fallacies expose themselves to be just so - you haven't given me anything more than blind faith in scientists, who have agendas and very strong motivations to make certain claims(medication pays a lot, therapy is less common and less effective, plus, medical researchers make their money not in therapy, but psychiatric treatment). Maybe you'd also believe evolutionarily psychology, after all, scientists believe it, so it must be torah misnai. This is the krumkeit with your approach - you're willing to chuck mesorah for some psychologist, frum or otherwise.

What is wrong with my statement that drives for children are no different then for women(or men)? It's a nisayon, like women or men is a nisayon - did I say it is acceptable, or less of a problem because of it? No. Never. The only nafka mina between your statements and mine, is that yours strips a man of his tafkid in life. You see, I don't look at people as being 'sick'.

Everyone has a tikun hanefesh - a homsexual person, for instance, has a blatantly obvious one. So does a child molester. Tell me, what makes you, or scientists, think that that child molestation should be different from other harmful urges? There are certain chemicals that are released when one is aroused, correct me if I'm wrong, but these chemicals are released in pedophiles as well. This is why the shots work. I think that's pretty scientific if you ask me - scientists will deny that people have bechira to do anything, so their opinion is not too relevant.

Chachma begoyim taamin has zilch to do with torah - 'chachma' means cold facts. This means that a goy can tell you how far away the earth is from the sun - not much besides that. Now, we have chazal saying that 'torah begoyim, lo taamin', whenever goyim give an opinion on a torah matter, we don't even acknowledge it(well, most of us anyway) - bechira issues are a torah matter, and certainly not the touch-and-taste variety of chachma, or even advanced types, such as architecture, mathematics, physics, etc.., which is factual based altogether - psychology is be'etzem, entirely in a different category called 'bina', sometimes with 'daas' - there are major differences between a doctor telling a person he has a chemical imbalance based on a machine telling him so, to a doctor giving some fantasy answer as to why people behave the way they do - it's called a 'soft science' for a reason.

Others have no such brocho of obviousness in their tikunim - like myself. I do not deprive these people of their humanity jewishness, tzelem elokim, or of hope the way you do. You sentence these men to a life of suffering, of a gehinnom on earth - it's the height of cruelty.

Re: nachal - I think Rav Ovadiah knows clearly that we should have hakaras hatov for chayalim. That is not the point with nachal. The point is the organization itself, and its philosophy. He was against it - I dare you to accuse him of lacing hakaras hatov. Like most other gedolim(most notably rav Shach), I'd assume he wouldn't be against army service in itself(rav shach was for it for people not in yeshiva), but that is not the same as supporting nachal, an organized charedi movement of davka being soldiers.

Is being a soldier partially achzarius-dig? I think so. Sounds like a dvar pashut to me. The sentiment I'm talking about I've heard from students - the desire to be in the action could drag them out of yeshiva.

saying 'ask rabbi horowitz' does not qualify as a logical proof of your assertion, sorry. I respect rabbi horowitz for his efforts, although I think that if he agrees with your sentiments(I'm going to assume he doesn't), they are well-meaning errors, which anyone can make. I'm sorry, but to take a category of issurim and to strip it of its nature(issurim are created for a purpose that G-d revealed to us - to test men and grant him reward for fighting his yatzer), to demean those who act on a yatzer hora as 'sick', is itself sick to me.

This was my point with the apikorsus. Far from being 'obsessed' as you assert, I had a point in discussing it - I wanted to bring out the horrors of apikorsus, that we may look at child molesters in a different light when we see that they are maaminim, even bnei olam haba(does it say that a rotzeach has no chelek in olam haba? how about one who is oiver on lo sonu? I doubt it) while apikorsim are not, and are not even considered Jews in many respects. If you dare strip the divine image that child molesters are created in, you certainly should say that apikorsim are worse, since chazal say they are worse. This was my original question to rabbi horowitz. I have yet to receive an answer. All i've received from you are insults - this makes me feel more confident about my opinion, if the best you can do is defame me.


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71. re; IDF     7/6/09 - 7:44 PM
Matis G

Belz is very well represented in the army. So are other groups. No posek, i do not believe, is against that. However, a major posek is in fact against the nachal group.

So, we see from this that being against nachal does NOT equal being against serving in the army. Many gedolim, again, like rav shach, said to go to the army. That has nothing to do with being against nachal. You do not seem to ever address that rav ovadiah said it was wrong - I'm assuming there's not much to say about that in response, so you'd rather do a nice 'strawman' argument, misrepresenting my position and then tearing it down - that's a nice tactic which only serves to indict your views.

Still waiting for an answer on rav ovadiah's psak.


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72. to sarit     7/6/09 - 7:51 PM
Matis G

I honestly do not understand your understanding of what I've been saying lately - care to elaborate?

Basically, the gist of what I said was the following:

-Child molesters are like anyone else, and there is no mitzvah not to love them - they are a chelek eloka mimaal, and we need to stop showing such disdain for them.

-rabbi horowitz's approval of nachal contradicts rav ovadiah's psak, as well as the majority mesorah about zionism

-If we in fact have disdain for them, we should certainly have disdain for apikorsim - they're dangerous, vile, worse than murderers, etc.. The logical contradiction speaks for itself - why are people willing to tolerate apikorsim, sit down with them, help them, etc.., yet they'd personally destroy the lives of child molesters by having them rot in jail.

- child molesters have bechira and can do teshuvah, not mitigating their offense or taking away from the fact that one needs to call the police when one becomes aware of abuse - mussar will help them the same way it helps men get off pornography, prostitution, homosexuality or anything else, if one wants to enough, and tries hard enough(of course, siyata dismayah is needed). I have hard of one such individual.


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73. Additional reactions to Matis     7/6/09 - 7:55 PM
Benzion Twerski

Matis:

There are several errors in your posts, and others pounced on you for many of them. I will point out a few that are salient for me.

1 – Teshuvah for the pedophile is irrelevant. I have expounded on this many times, but it bears repetition. Teshuvah is specific and restricted to bein odom lamakom. There is no beis din or dayan that can consider teshuvah in addressing pedophilia. Whether someone can change through therapy is a subject that is debated among the experts. Even if there is improvement, it is of little significance.

If the risk factor for a pedophile can be reduced from 100 to 30, would you still allow him around your children? Should your children’s yeshiva hire him? It is clear that no one can document that the risk has been reduced to zero. The result of this is that we can never conclusively challenge the notion, “Once a pedophile always a pedophile.” Even if we can take a position theoretically, one would need to find 100% safety to be convincing.

2 – The attitude that derides the mental health field is shaky at best, and is probably misguided. I am only one of many frum mental health professionals. You can meet a sampling of over 400 of us at a Nefesh conference. Gedolim world over have given their blessings to what we do. I have personal, close collegial relationships with many Rabbonim, poskim, roshei yeshivos, and rebbes in the chassidishe world as well as the yeshiva world, and there is mutual respect. I have Rabbonim who seek my direction to understand certain conditions and situations, and I consult with Rabbonim for direction in hashkafah and halacha continuously. I am not singing my own praises. I am just one of several hundred.

You may choose to give the anti-secular, anti-college speech. Many of us have heard it over and over again. You may direct your own children to refrain from any and all secular education. But the swish wipe of all the knowledge we possess that our gedolim respect is unfounded, and cannot be supported by the Torah greats of our generation.

3 – There are major differences between a child molester and ordinary ta’avas noshim. Poskim that I have consulted are fully aware of this. The poskim of earlier generations also make references to this. There is clear, black and white references in Rishonim to the addictive nature of certain behaviors where it is recognized that the individual has lost his ability to control himself. This is not a challenge to bechira. We are describing a situation in which the person has forfeited his bechira. And, yes, the disease model of addictions is alive and well, thank you. I will not railroad this forum in that debate.

4 – As for condemning pedophiles, I have zero problem with being machshiv someone with such urges – if he controls them. Once we have a pattern of posing a danger to others, that chashivus is cancelled out completely. Should we all be zocheh to see a convicted molester behind bars, it is probably a mitzvah to insure that he has kosher food and tefillin. The condemnation is directed at the behavior. As long as there is risk of the behavior being repeated, the chances of such relapse are to be condemned, and every measure to insure safety must be taken. If that makes the poor guy feel bad, tough.

5 – There can be sin together with a psychological condition. As a professional, I do not focus on the sin aspect. That is (as mentioned earlier) bein odom lamakom, and it is frankly none of my business. We can discuss guilt, anxiety, shame, urges, domination, control, or whatever other emotional issues arise in the context of therapy. There is a spiritual side to all this. But the essence of teshuvah is beyond my domain.

If a Rav wishes to assist someone with the teshuvah part, gezunterheit. If that Rav is also a Baal Ruach Hakodesh, and is able to relay a word from heaven that the sin was forgiven, and that the disease is cured, that is wonderful. I am not sure where you will find this Baal Ruach Hakodesh.

6 – False accusations of molestation are the exception, not the rule. There is great fear of this becoming rampant, and I will downplay it. The only time I made a fuss about this was when the task at hand was to develop a system to process complaints internally, before passing the gauntlet to secular authorities. My position was that this system must include measures to verify complaints before going to law enforcement. I will not be thrilled with a system that has false positives. They can occur now, but I did not create the system.

7 – You questioned the psak of Rav Elyashiv. It is found in a serial publication called Yeshurun, and it is in a kuntres called “Dam Reyacho”. There are several teshuvos there from various renowned poskim, including that one.

I hope this clarifies some of the issues that you raised in several comments.


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74. mistaske on my part     7/6/09 - 8:06 PM
Matis G

Sorry, people who do averos are in fact, sick 'ain odom choteh ele im kain nicnas bo ruach shtus' - that applies to every averah. I meant the word 'sick' in a different connotation above, as if the molester is less of a human being, a diseased animal the way you make him out to be.

Sorry for the confusion.


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75. To Bentzion     7/6/09 - 10:10 PM
Matis G

Rabbonim giving somethig a brocho does not mean they agree with everything that you believe in or accept - did you, for instance, ask gedolei yisroel about the points you said above, that if the child molester suffers, it is 'tough', that 'once a child molester always a child molester' is true? did they agree to this?

I did not question Rav Elyashiv. I said many times that calling the police was necessary - I did however say that our attitude needs to change and that the beliefs many have about child molesters are offensive and diminish their status as yidden, tzelmei elokim, and so on.

Calling the police because of sakanas nefashos has nothing to do with that - check what I said again, this has nothing to do with Rav Elyashiv's psak - he certainly does not need my haskama.

Reb Moshe gave a brocho to the nach-nachers to print rav nachman's seforim - now, does this mean he agrees with their ideas? I do not think so. The same way you accuse askanim of foolish gedolim, I can just as easily accuse your crowd of the same - the fact that you profession changes your attitude has no bearing on what the emes is, neither does the fact that professionals such as yourself conveniently avoid the fact that psychology and spirituality are more often than not, one and the same.

Quoting 'experts' proves nothing - their studies are done haphazardly, and their conclusions constantly change, depending usually on politics(this is what a very respected professor of psychology said, that psychology is mainly politics - their attitude towards addictions are no different.

I am aware that the poskim look at addictions differently - when yidden became addicted to gambling in a certain kehilla, and they made a shvua not to gamble, they decided that it'd be better to be in jail than to be oiver their shvua - the fact that poskim deal with addiction issues differently than normal taivos is clear, however your understanding of teshuvah is limited in scope.

The lashon seforim use for a baal teshuva is a beryah chadasha, this means a new being - if one is zoche to do complete teshuvah. I am convinced that people who are addicted, to anything, can change - goyishe studies are done on people without torah, and seforim say that no one can change fully without torah. They are therefore irrelevant, not the teshuvah. Teshuvah is a palpable, real change - it seems that you are diminshing its importance.

Letting people with that kind of history being around children is different from acknowledging that he most likely does not have the issue anymore - we do not differentiate between a safe sakanah and a vadai, and nowhere did I say that we should evaluate his teshuvah in beis din; I think you're lumping me together with sympathisers of pedophiles who may have used such misguided arguments. I never said such a thing, and I think it is totally wrong.

What I objected to, again, for the last time, was the attitude of people when they think of pedophiles, and the way they judge them.


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76. mistake in my post     7/7/09 - 3:40 AM
Matis G.

the line that says 'askanim folish gedolim' should be read 'askanim foolING gedolim' - that was a terrible typo, sorry for any confusion.


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77. Matis, please stop putting words in my mouth     7/7/09 - 5:30 AM
Doniels - Yerusholayim - doniels@gmail.com

"Matis G " asked:

> Like to show us any poskim who approve of your > approach?

The Ramabam, see below.

>Chacham Ovadia does not.

No idea what Chacham Ovadia says: where can I see that he wrote such a thing? I would like to look it up.

I do know that certain Gedolim were "for" the Nachal Chareidi, like IIRC Rav Shteinman and others, but because of threats to their lives they are now afraid to say so in public.

That's the amazing part: Rav Horowitz shlita openly states what he thinks needs to be said; just like Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l did.

> Why army service? Why not parnosah? > Why not be a normal baalhabus?.

Why not! That's what I said. To quote myself: The Nachal Chariedi takes kids who are tired with the system, gives the a chance for a Parnoso, helps them mature and usually gives them back their will to open a Sefer.

This is based on the Rambam Hilchos Dei'os 5:24: "But the Tipshim start by getting married, then if they can afford it they buy a house and then they'll try find a profession or live off Tzedoko."

In the original, if it comes through: ?,?? ??? ???????, ??????? ???? ????, ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???, ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????

> You can make anything sound good, especially to a > kid who doesnt want to learn and might have an > urge to have some nice achzarius-dige 'action'.

Who said I was talking about a "kid who doesn't want to learn"? My kid was learning, when he wasn't being distracted by other "more exciting" things. But he gets more learning done now that he's in the army.

Who said anything about an "urge to have some nice achzarius-dige 'action'"? My kid knew he would be non-combat due to his asthma. Unless you consider having to deal with MSWindows as "achzarius". :-) He went to the army knowing he would be a job-nik.

> If there are poskim who agree with what nachal does, > please let us know - otherwise, I'm going to assume > that rav ovadiah's psak is just being ignored

Don't let that upset you; even explicit Halochos in Shulchan Aruch are openly ignored. Here's a random sample: - Tikun Chatzos - Writing your own Sefer Torah - Not trimming Payos - Not talking in shul - 20 minutes Tosefes Shabbos on Friday


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78.     7/7/09 - 6:32 AM
yoni

matis by your own words you are an apikores, to define the term so narrowly would mean that everyone is an apikores by virtue of the many opinions that dissagree both within rishonim and within the achronim. . .

But no, your definition of apikores is too broad, see for instance what rav moshe has to say about this definition of the word... your lack of knowledge of sources beyond a very heavily cherry picked selection is offensive.


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79. matis G     7/7/09 - 8:32 AM
yoni

I am under the impression you don't even know what "ruach hakodesh" means...

in these circumstances it basicaly means that their psak is authorotative... nothing more.


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80.     7/7/09 - 3:18 PM
Tzvi

In Rabbi Horowitz's own words the analogy he gave with getting a haskama on one part of the sefer is exactly what is happening with him.He was hired by the Agudah to run the project YES for kids at risk that is about the most the gedolim gave him approval. Yet he took that and decides to become the spokesperson for all charedim on all topics usually he is the first to find fault within our society and harp on it to further his carreer by pandering to the left and haters of torah as if he and only he is the one with daas torah and only he is brave enough to come out publicly and speak against anything that does not fit with his hashkafos. we ask Reb yankel to keep out of all other matters and devote his time to the kids at risk issue who he was originally hired to take care of them.


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81. to doniels     7/7/09 - 3:56 PM
Matis G

I stated where chacham ovadia paskened that way - See yalkut yosef, hilchos kivud av ve'aim, vol 2. Page 272. Maybe rav shteinman is quiet about it because it's a lie that he's for it? Maybe I'm also for it, but due to fear of my life I'm against it? I think we need bigger proofs than 'he's afraid for his life'. I just gave one such proof. Your turn.

Tikun chatzos is not a chiuv. Check out Rav Chaim Kanievsky's shu"t sefer, i forget the name, but the title of the sefer has something to do with the word drinking - doleh-something. It's an inyan al pi kaballah. Trimming the payos is a machlokes; the chasam sofer permits, and most of the velt follos the shita of the mishnah berurah(see rav yisroel belsky's sefer 'shulchan halevi' for a nice explanation of the rishonim and achronim on the payos issue) Briskers are more machmir, as are chassidim, but that is not a chiyuv mi'iar hadin. The average litvishe yid today fulfills many shitos in his peyos. The mitzvah of writing a sefer torah can be fulfilled by buying seforim - these halachos are not, chas veshalom, overlooked.

anything else?


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82. yoni     7/7/09 - 4:03 PM
Matis G

Check the mishnah berurah - it ain't my definition, it's the sefer hachinuch. I doubt reb moshe argues with the sefer hachinuch. Most likely, you're referring to things that make one a full-fledged apikores even beshogeg(there are differences however between a maizid and a shogeg - rav chaim's vort of a nebech an apikores is oich an pikores applys here), namely, violating the 13 ikarim (if you hold of the ikkarim, the chasam sofer does not, but his shita was not very accepted - virtually all off klal yisroel accepted them, even in Hungary where the chasam sofer had his greatest influence). This is the rule for things like aidus, etc.., but the mishnah berurah clearly defines apikorsus as anything against daas torah. That dosn't mean every single rishon and achron; it means if you believe something against daas torah - big difference.

Let me explain - if you believe in giving women education to shield them from assimilation and make up for the lack of our ability, like the choeftz chaim did, then you're following the chofetz chaim. If you are a feminist, and believe that womens' education furthers women's rights or other fantasies that have no basis in torah, then you could be believing apikorsus. This does not make one necessarily a full-fledged apikores, but he is believing apikorsus - there's a difference. I am pretty sure that's what reb moshe was talking about.

Did you see the divrei chaim I quoted above? So far we have the chinuch, mishnah berurah, and divrei chaim with no dissenting views on record, sound good?


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83. Clarification     7/7/09 - 4:10 PM
Matis G

When I said rishonim and achronim, I did not mean that if you pasken like one over another, you are an apikores - that's ridiculous. I meant that if you believe something that no torah authority ever believed in, or even if a torah authority believed in something but his hashkafa was rejected by klal yisroel, that is, the halacha does not follow him, then that belief is apikorsus - since there is a halacha to have the right hashkafos(within a pretty broad range).

This is what Rav Yosef Albo writes in sefer haikkarim about rav hillel(not hillel hazaken, an amorea with the same name), that he was of course not an apikores(he believed moshiach was not coming in some way, I dont remember what the meforshim say about his shita exactly), but it would be apikorsus to believe his shita, since it is not the halacha.


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84. big difference     7/7/09 - 4:30 PM
Matis G

when I said what I said about rav avigdor miller, I said that within the context of someone who is an authority on hashkafa, a gadol be'yisroel, someone who finished shas 63 times, knew the chovos halevavos by heart, and dragged klal yisroel out of the murky depths of anti-torah beliefs. He lived hashkafa and dedicated his life to making sure we had the right kind.

rav yaakov kamenetzky used to refer to hashkafa as 'hilchos deos' - I don't think many peope understand hashafa this way; they let it slide as a free for all where if you throw around a chazal, you're not wrong. It's a halacha like anything else, and one can potentially lose his olam haba for violating it, chas veshalom.

This is what I meant when I said that about rav miller - he was not afraid of the hashkafically weak, or those who had been influenced by non-Jewish attitudes - his was a pure torah, a fire from the European yeshivos that no evolutionist or reformer in America could quench. He once said that the reason he wrote his hashkafa seforim in English as opposed to lashon hakodesh was because the laitzonei hador would not hear of it, and would silence him. In this sense he was not afraid. He did what he knew hashem wanted him to do.

People would be scared by having to have their emunah grow through thinking instead of just ignoring it, people would have to start thinking about things very differently, and others would say that it opened the door for doubts. He knew this and wrote in a language that would reach as many people who needed him as possible - he was not afraid to denounce college as the sewer that it is, and he was not afraid to say that the state of Israel was 'the worst thing ever to happen in Jewish history', among other things that many rabbonim today are afraid to say. He had no problem showing how the sins of the jewish people caused the holocaust midah-keneged-midah. He didn't bow to sociologists, scientists, psychologists, anybody - if their views violated daas torah.

I am not on that level, of course, but I am outraged when I see yidden bowing to non-Jewish influenced or ideas. Wrong or right as I might be, i dont think professional frum pscyhologists should do more than give medication and counseling in a neutral way as guided strictly by complete guidelines of rabbonim, without employing non-jewish theories and ideas that while might be helpful visibly, may be spiritually harmful. I do not know what gedolei yisroel say about this lemaysoh, but I do know for sure that if any method being employed is based on apikorsus, i can say with complete certainty that it is totally wrong to use it - apikorsus is an issur yehereg velo yaavor, meaning it is better to die than violate it. Is that fanatical? I honestly don't care.

being as am no posek, I cannot say if any of the 'expert' theories posted here are apikorsus - i honestly don't know.

Rabbi Horowitz is en ehrliche yid, someone who seems to really want to help our children and klal yisroel. He is also faithful to the psak of gedolim when he receives it - i give him a lot of kovod for that. I disagree with some of his ideas, and I think i explained why I do quite reasonably. However, to say that rabbi horowitz is not afraid to say what he thinks is right is not the same though, as to say that about rav miller. rav miller was a gadol be'yisroel - no comparison is warranted.


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85. re; other halachos     7/7/09 - 4:49 PM
Matis G

Re; not taling in shul; that's an old problem. There are poskim who find a limud zchus on those who talk in shul AFTER tefilah(obviously, during davening there's no excuse) - plus, many people do observe this halacha.

Tosefes shabbos - that's not pashut. There are rishonim who hold there is no inyan of tosefes shabbos. We of course pasken there is such an inyan - where you got 20 minutes I do not know, but there are poskim who hold that two minutes is enough to satisfy the inyan of tosefes shabbos. This can be done easily by starting shabbos 2 minutes before the 18 minute mark, many people in fact do this, I'm one of them.


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86. MItzvos and Mitzvos     7/8/09 - 5:29 AM
Doniels - Yerusholayim - doniels@gmail.com

> Tikun chatzos is not a chiuv.

True - but it's appropriate for a Yerei Shomayim. See Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 1:3

> Trimming the payos is a machlokes;

No it's not! How close you can trim maybe, but once you can't pinch the hair you're too close. Not to mention those who grow long Payos and shave their sideburns.

> The mitzvah of writing a sefer torah can be > fulfilled by buying seforim

Not true! Unless you can explain how the Rosh changed a Mitzva in the Torah. (Even how he "added" to a Mitzva is somewhat puzzling.)

> Re; not taling in shul; that's an old problem.

So? We can ignore "old problems"?

> Tosefes shabbos - that's not pashut. There are > rishonim who hold there is no inyan of tosefes > shabbos.

Only one that I know of; the Rambam.

> We of course pasken there is such an inyan

Mitzva or Chiyuv, actually.

> where you got 20 minutes I do not know,

Mishna Brura in 261.


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87. Shame the good news comes from abroad.     7/8/09 - 6:15 AM
notreligious - Jerusalem

I was curious about what I would find on this website, after I read the Jpost. I am a secular European Jew - living in Jerusalem for the last 10 years and father of 5 kids, all ages. Although Israel is very progressive it is very far from the standards I grew up with. My opinion about religious Jews doesn't differ from my opinion on secular Jews, both groups consist of many colored people.

Oh I am very tolerant: maybe too much, but when I saw fellow citizens that were supposed to hold by a 'higher' moral standard; when I saw my people dressed for Shabbes in recognizable clothes with girtl, throwing stones and set trashcans on fire, that is where they crossed a line.

As has been said many times before, when these bachurim attend a protest, whatever the outcome may be (and on whatever day of the week), they should realize that the rest of the world will generalise and judge all of us Jew, based on their behavior.

I expected to read some wicked stuff here about the event, but was/am rather pleasantly surprised that a moral voice is heard hear and that the Rav isn't afraid to vent his opinion about their conduct.

We can all dwine in 'could have', 'would have', should have' BUT that doesn't solve any problems. We can point fingers at eachother and blame until Moshiach comes - that won't do it. We could also force eachother to live by the codex of the other, well we've seen what that brings (World of Amalek).

I personally think that we are responsible for our own deeds and those of our children, and that if we could all learn how to become a righteous human being, then most of our problems would be solved by itself.

Kol Hakavod for the Rav and his fellows for trying.


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88. to doniels     7/8/09 - 7:35 PM
Matis G

"Fun a kasha, shtarb mir nisht" Immortal words indeed. You're paskening against the Rosh because of a kashya. You admit this is the shita of the rosh, and yet you deny it because you do not understand it. This is not how halacha works - a shita is a shita.

When I said trimming the payos, I meant the shiur that is acceptable, which is about a number 3, or better, 3.5 on a barber's haircut machine. Most people do this, and if they don't, well, I haven't seen any in brooklyn since i became frum 5 years ago who do not keep them at this length. Pinching the hair is not the shiur, it is grasping it - big difference. The mishnah berurah has this shiur, that we do not cut from the hairline on the side of the forehead until behind the ears, since it is a possible issur deoraysoh. Trimming is not an issur - trimming too short is, but again, no one does that - if individuals do, well, you can't call that ignored.

The fact that a yireh shomayim should do something does not make it a chiuv. Oy. This is the definition of a chumrah, except this is not even a halachik chumrah, but an inyan al pi kaballah.

You can shave youtr sideburns up until the jawbone - there are those who are machmir and do not shave above the earlobe, but this is a chumrah, as it is taking the lashon of the mechaber cepeshuto against many poskim who take it to mean the bone. It is based on some poskim though, and is a valid chumrah - however it is not an issur to do so, and if a man with long payos trims it, there is no stirah or problem al pi halacha.

I am sure there are poskim who hold two minutes is enough - could be reb moshe, but i do not remember now. the piskei teshuvos brings it down for sure - there are others who hold higher amounts of minutes, but i do not remember their shitos right now.

Not everything in the mishnah berurah was accepted by klal yisroel. You need to look at other poskim, both during and after the mishnah berurah, to see how klal yisroel is noheg.


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89. to matis # 82     7/9/09 - 9:25 AM
bengy

u write "...the chasam sofer does not. source please!!!


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90. to Benjy     7/9/09 - 12:37 PM
Matis G

Haghos YD 181 quoted by his son, the Ksav Sofer. Kol tuv.


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91. Just to clarify - Rav Avigdor Miller on goyishe psychology     7/9/09 - 8:04 PM
Matis G.

Rav Avigdor Miller had fierce criticism for non-jewish psychology, the so-called 'experts' who make their conclusions based on mice and speculation, and the attitudes that poison people - my opinions were not 'ignorance', 'fanaticism', or whatever - here are quotes from Rav Miller's sefer 'awake my glory' "But 'before the face of the understanding man there is wisdom' because the righteous leaders and teachers of his own generation are utilized fully by him to achieve wisdom. The understanding one seeks counsel from torah-sages alone, and never from psychologists, psychiatrists, or marriage counselors. "(page 237, paragraph 776, rav miller numbered all of his paragraphs).

And again: "At their convention they also demonstrate their enthusiasm for 'sports'. In Harvard's school of medicine, slides of female 'pinups' are flashed during the lectures. These matters which excite the scientists serve as pertinent analogies to all their theories, including their infatuation with Evolution, their approach to geology and the age of the universe, and their brutalisation of human behavior as expounded in their psychology and sociology. The savants and statesmen who attend the opera or the baseball game, or who gaze with admiration at ballerinas, and unthinkingly pursue the superficialities of the masses, demonstrate thereby their lac of basic values and their utter incompetence to render opinions on any fundamental issues. page 252, paragraph 820)

I think human behavior is a fundamental issue - we need to be looking at the torah for our sourcebook on how to help people. This is not a matter of getting a throat culture, this is a matter of the mind, of the soul - a bracha from gedolim(emphasis on bracha - this is quite different from a haskama, and even then haskamos have their limitations; we all know many books that had haskamos that were treif, since rabonim rarely examine the whole sefer with the exception of halacha seforim) without them knowing what you are doing inside and out does not change that. The fact that one can have a 'professional' opinion, separate from torah, about something the torah talks about, is just wrong.

There are many things that are in their essence, treated only by medications - a person who is schizophrenic needs medication, and so on - most other psychological disorders are not like that though.

I do not care what goyim call a disease or not. Are addictions diseases? who cares? does that change anything? I dont think so. All it does it make people think it's not their fault(a common trend in psychology today), and that they do not need to, chas veshalom feel a drop of guilt for their problems. My actions are now a disease - g-d dosnt care if I cough because im sick, so I guess he doesnt care if I drink all day or molest children, since I just have a disease...this is lunacy. You can see how just one word added to a problem can change everything - their 'models' are no different than their 'models' for evolutionary psychology, something im sure you wouldn't use with your patients.

I am sure reb yisroel salanter, and the alter of slabodka, who did not go to college yet helped people's psyche's amazingly,if he would have had to in order to get a degree and be in a position to help people, would only use the torah's psychology and mussar methods, not goyishe nonsense garbage.

The point is not secular knowledge being bad. Everyone agrees that there's nothing wrong with a yid learning computer programming for a parnosaa. This is different - this is learning torah from goyim, this is learning about something the torah tells us about from a goyishe anti-torah perspective, from people who are the biggest baalei taiva and apikorsim in the world. Many rabbonim agree with this - hashgacha would have it that I just heard a shiur from rabbi zechariah wallerstein about this a few miniutes ago. He said that jewish professionals have no right to use goyishe ideas and methods with their patients - stick to torah and torah alone. Learning it is one thing - to get a parnosa/degree it would be permissible if it is not apikorsus, but to use it? unacceptable. I dont know if it's assur or not, but it's certainly against torah hashkafa.

do i care if 400 professionals disagree? Not really. I care more what our gedolei yisroel say, and what our mesorah says.


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92. tosfos shabbos     7/9/09 - 8:09 PM
Anonymous

I verified with my rebbe in yeshiva that it is indeed reb moshe who holds that two minutes is enough.


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93. 91 Beg To Differ     7/9/09 - 10:57 PM
Anonymous

I dont know at what point in his life Rov Miller made the statements you reference and I've not heard them in context. I wonder, however, if perhaps he would know some of today's outstanding, ehrlich, talmidei chochomim, and yirei Shamoyim to whose professional support the frum tzibbur may avail themselves he might not issue a revised perspective. Obviously, however, this speculation remains academic.

With greatest admiration and respect for Rav Miller ZTL, and with genuine appreciation for his legacy, there are plenty of gedolei Torah today upon whom we can comfortably rely who regularly REFER Yidden to mental health professionals. Gedolim REGULARLY CONSULT WITH FRUM PSYCHOLOGISTS to better understand various conditions and problems as well as their solutions--for the benefit of the tzibur. I would not be surprised, although it is just a conjecture, if Rabbonim sometimes schedule appointments to seek help for their own problems--they are human, after all.

Deos yechidim notwithstanding, contemporary CHAREDI Rabbinic opinion clearly supports and encourages reliance upon the expertise of psychologists who are frum bnei Torah. Should you chas vesholom encounter a serious personal problem, you can decide to be machmir for yourself(whatever that means...) and stay far from the help that might save you. But never be machmir at someone else's deep personal expense.

BTW, I also wonder if you are aware that Rov Miller attended A Baltimore public school in the formative years of his life when a local cheder was but a faraway dream. Today this would be unthinkable (B"H) but it did happen and a Rov Avigdor Miller emerged. I mention this to underscore that different sensitivities surface in different times. Your perspective can only come from one who is blissfully unaware of the tremendous degree of help for terribly horrific problems our community of mental health care professionals provide in our times. That we can turn to professionals who wear yarmulkes with all this represents is an absolute bracha for which our kehilla owes a tremendous debt of hakoras hatov.


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94. to anonymous     7/10/09 - 12:41 AM
Matis G

Just which gedolim support the methods and 'pratim' that secular-trained psychologists use? I have heard of only letters of bracha, which we see from reb moshe and the na-nachers means very litte as an affirmation of their methods. Rabbonim will refer people to psychologists for the things I wrote above - namely, things that are biological in nature, or whose nature totally is out of one's control, like schizophrenia(there's no area of bechira where one can decide whether or not to have hallucinations). Rav Miller wrote that in 1980, when awake my glory was published. I think it's just rude to say that he wrote that in one period of his life and just changed - maybe gedolim who you believe are for your cause will also change their mind in a later period in life, who knows? all we have to go by is their word.

I think my points about reb yisroel salanter and the alter remain unaddressed.

If these yireh shomayim are just regurgitating what the secular psychologists write, then how is their method any different? because they wont tell a person outright to abandon torah? Fine, but that's not all there is to being ehrliche. Bentzion Twersky himself admits that their methods and theories come from secular sources. Rav Avigdor Miller was addressing that. He was not addressing if the person who administers the garbage he spoke about was frum or not, that is, for the most part, irrelevant.

Let me explain the difference between a baal mussar and a psychologist. You see, both want to help the person. However, a baal musar, or a rebbe who knows his stuff, is interested in helping that person on an eternal level, that is, he might not be at top comfort in this world, he may even suffer, but he is orientating him towards perfection.

By contrast, the definition of a psychologist is one who is interested in helping the person reach a better state of mental health. This is, for the frum person, not exclusive to spiritual improvement, I am sure, as these people are frum, that they will be interested in that too, but ruchnius is not his main focus - as dr twersky writes himself, that due to his profession he does not focus on the sin aspect(which can be very helpful - i doubt there are enough psychologists in the world to make a decent study evaluating the effect of patients using the fact that their behavior is sinful to try to stop, i happen to think it would work).

Rabbi Zechariah Wallerstein gave a nice shiur on this the other day - he said that anything used to help people psychologically except the torah is not for us to use. He gave an example - apparently, psychologists have this technique in marriage counseling, where they have the couple write things they don't like about each other; right afterwards they start getting angry with each other and arguing. Rabbi Wallerstein does the opposite - based on mussar seforim, he has the couple write something they love about the other person - this is a starting point to evaluate their marriage.

Now, he says this works wonders - apparently the goyim haven't chapped on to this yet in their quest to get people to think that nothing is their fault - instead of having people adapt and grow, change themselves to fit their challenges like jews are supposed to, they'd rather try to get their parents, or spouses to change for them - the height of self-absorption!

Why is Rav Miller a yachid? because gedolim gave something a bracha? Honestly, you can change the 'ofen', but if the 'tochen' is the same garbage the secular world dishes out regularly, then it's not too different.

I can say personally that given a history of depression, aggression, obsessiveness, compulsiveness, and many other problems which psychologists attempted to fix - not a thing they did worked at all - mussar helped me in enormous ways; it changed my life and catapulted me, ith suyata dishmaya, to become a different person.

I've yet to meet anyone who changed significantly from anything goyishe(please dont bring up the 12 step programs - they do work, and are necessary, but rabbonim have said that it's largely based on mussar, although there are hashkafic problems with elements of it as well, aside from the fact that it as invented by goyim, such as the notion that 'once an addict always an addict', where for 50 years the poor guy still has to live in his gehinom of 'im a recovering alcoholic', never changing, never becoming his true self, etc..)

I've yet to see anyone say that gedolim endorse these things - who knows? maybe the same way askanim have fooled gedolim with false information, maybe some psychologists have not shown gedolim the full picture, not necessarily intentionally, to deceive, but maybe just because they didnt give complete reports? maybe the psychologists are well-meaning, even ehrliche, people who just are not aware of the fact that they're using goyishe nonsense, and will only give partial(albeit, not intentional) outines of their programs to gedolim? Doesn't sound too far-fetched to me.

Why would a pedophile want to get help when all you people tell him is that he'll never change and he'll never be a normal member of frum society? what ind of incentive is that? I think this attitude is exacerbating the problem - it breeds hopelessness.


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95. deception about rav miller     7/10/09 - 1:26 AM
Matis G

Your insinuation that rav miller public school(which was of course, quite different in those days - he did so before the war when women wore clothes, and he was forced to), and therefore it didnt bother him, or that it was ok, or that things change(as in, torah attitudes change chas vesalom) is misleading, and misses the whole point.

Firstly, he said himself that it took him a long time to eradicate whatever attitudes he got there from his mind(although i dont imagine it wouldnt have been different in a cheder; goyim werent like they are today back then, atheism was not taught to 5th graders as it is now) - he worked hard, and this was part of his tafkid, as he saved an entire generation of jews from secular thinking; he traned himself to think only the way the torah does.

He also only spoke yiddish at home and had a rebbe after school the way any cheder boy learns(you left that out), he probably learned more than cheder boys today, as it is known he new tanakh almost by heart as a boy, and even as a young man, he always had the chovos halevavos with him, inspiring him to greater heights. Rav Gifter, who also grew up in baltimore and knew rav miller, said that rav miller inspired him as a boy to become a talmid chacham.

I honestly do not see what bearing this has on what he said.

Your suggestion that rabbonim are depressed and go to psychologists is condescending. To say that goyishe psychological studies, combed from the depths of tumah and apikorsus, is better than what rabbonim already have(mussar, or chassidus) is condescending, and it explains my point very well about how we should not use goyishe theories - we begin to follow their toros. I know of no such cases - plus, not everyone with smicha is a qualified rov for paskening shailos, and certainly not all of them are true talmidei chachamim.


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96.     7/10/09 - 8:42 AM
Anonymous

"Your suggestion that rabbonim are depressed and go to psychologists is condescending. To say that goyishe psychological studies, combed from the depths of tumah and apikorsus, is better than what rabbonim already have(mussar, or chassidus) is condescending"

What is condesending here? Do you also feel there is a narcissistic insult inflicted when Rabbonim who are not well, r"l, rely upon the hishtadlus of doctors who may even be complete apikorsim and whose yedios, skills, and treatment plans were developed in the very context of an envoronment we would all, as fine, aidel yidden reject? If you find within the sifrei mussar any hints for the development of treatment plans for serious neoblastomas, severe renal failure, or crippling metabolic disorders--especially for very young children-- PLEASE DO SHARE THEM. In the meanwhile, whomever the shlichim that Hashem in His infinite wisdom chooses as conduits for chochmos refuah we would do well to say Hodu LaHashem Ki Tov.


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97. stop arguing with fools     7/10/09 - 12:09 PM
tootired

Matis also believes: 1) the earth is flat 2) in spontaneous generation

after all, chazal thought so, so it must be true. Did it ever dawn on you Matis that we might know things today that they didnt know yesterday? Does that make chazal wrong when they say the earth is flat? No. They simply relied upon the knowledge prevalant at that time.

I would like to keep this thread on a high level, and not resort to name calling - out of respect for Rabbi Horowtiz, however Matis obsessive defense of pedophiles, blanket and broad brush condemnation/condescension of modern medicine as 'goyish' is boorish and idiotic.

I have never heard such ignorance in my entire life, and I am choshesh that he may be a pedophile himself. As R' Horowitz once theorized that it is those who defend such behaviors as ones to look out for...

It behooves the rest of us here to refrain from engaging him any further in any meaningful dialogue so as not to give off the impression that Matis ideas are in any way valid or worthy of consideration.


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98. Mah Nishtanah HaBlog Hazeh MiKol HaBlogs?     7/10/09 - 1:18 PM
Fed Up

If this blog is "moderated," how does the following filth appear here, at a site hosted by a Charedi Mechanech?

I have never heard such ignorance in my entire life, and I am choshesh that he may be a pedophile himself. As R' Horowitz once theorized that it is those who defend such behaviors as ones to look out for...

It behooves the rest of us here to refrain from engaging him any further in any meaningful dialogue so as not to give off the impression that ... ideas are in any way valid or worthy of consideration.


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99. let's take a look at the big picture     7/10/09 - 1:34 PM
Matis G

This whole time, all I've done is:

1. Quote mekoros and gedolei yisroel as I know them. I also quoted a recent shiur from a very successful and wildly popular mechanech who has been in chinuch for 30 years who says the same thing I have said about goyishe psychology 2. restate the ideas of a gadol be'yisroel, the only one I have seen address this issue, in his own words, only to have him mocked, called a yachid, or that he changed his mind later on because oy vey, how can anyone disagree with goyishe psychology?. 3. given myself as an example of the failures of goyishe therapy versus the wonderous light of torah. 4. said very persoanl things about myself to show this point. 5. tolerated insult after insult, with baseless claims, straw-man arguments, and misrepresentations of everything I said and believe 6. Had to lose a lot of time that could have been spent doing more important things typing to people who certainly do not care enough to seriously address my points in a mature way 7. Had bore witness to one of our nations hallowed heros being belittled and made into a joke. 8 have heard arguments made in defense of using goyishe speculative soft-science, such as brochos from gedolim, hearsay, undocumented and unverifiable information that claim gedolim and rabbonim visiting therapists, unrelated mentions of the fact that poskim treat addictions differently(this means that we are to use goyishe toros?!?), I have no idea how this relates to the issue) have had numerous comparisons between issues dealt with in mussar, psychological issues, and biological ones that are to be handled by doctors that are trained in the unbiased science of the body, without political agendas and philosophies and so on, - sof sof, nothing concrete.

Still waiting for a rational answer - but until then, the assaults continue to prove me right.


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100. #98     7/10/09 - 1:40 PM
Anonymous

Many of Matis' statements are degrading to talmidei chachomim of various generations. It may be far more productive to ignore him than to perpetuate dialogue that allows him to baschmutz this site with defenses for monsters (spiritual and emotional murderers)and accusations against the chachmei hador (of this generation as well as few earlier ones. Reading these comments of his, I lost the ability to be impressed with his beki'us.


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101. to fed up (Matis)     7/10/09 - 1:58 PM
tootired

what is filth exactly?

I am merely pointing out someone who claims to speak for gedolim and chazal - is saying foolish things and defending pedophiles. He is therefore denigrating chazal and causing ruptures in emunas chachomim. Whats wrong with making a mechoah. Since when is making a mechoah - considered filth.


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102. Whose website is it anyway?     7/10/09 - 2:15 PM
Open to Honest Discussion

It is obvious from the comments to this article and others on this site that several posters are not intellectually honest with themselves that they have their own agendas and biases. Therefore, instead of frank discussions they post long self-serving diatribes.

This is Rabbi Horowitz's site so it is his perogative to write articles of his choosing. He graciously allows others to post their opinions and disagree or agree with him.

Comments should be short and to the point. The current thread on this article has nothing to do with the article itself and has "evolved" into something of a life of its own.

So if you have so much to say why don't you open your own web/blogsite!!!!!!!!!!!


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103. to matis     7/11/09 - 3:58 PM
bengy

i dont know y my last comment doesnt appear here. 1- please clarify how i can find the chasam sofer u quoted. [did u see it urself or only quoted elsewhere? if so, where? please .

2-u mentioned in ur comments that u were not alaways frum . my q.- did the psycology stuff not work for u, & the mussar did-when u were already frum or not yet frum?


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104. Rabbi Miller     7/14/09 - 9:47 AM
JN in NJ - NJ

RAM, zt'l, was a multi-faceted person. I know he was at Rabbi Kahane's levaya and he refused to condemn Boruch G. over the Chevron 'incident' back on Purim in '94. He was also a graduate, I believe, of Johns Hopkin in Maryland.


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105. 104 R. A. Miller ZTL     7/14/09 - 2:43 PM
Anonymous

Rov A. Miller ZTL actually travelled a rather interesting and colorful educational trajectory--definitely not the monochromatic route one might expect. I am not aware of a Johns Hopkins degree, though I could well be mistaken. I believe upon completing his public schooling in baltimore, R. Miller came to NY where he studied at Yeshiva University and earned smicha as well as a BA. Still a bochur, R. Miller was 'recruited' to learn at the yeshiva in Slabodka when Rabbi Sher, married to the daughter of Rov Nosson Tzvi Finkel, came to the US to raise funds for the yeshiva.

Although Matis has portrayed R. Miller's perspective of his days in the Baltimore public school system in a wholly negative light, I have also heard that Rov Miller was makir the hashgacha pratis which led him along this path. You see, a childhood classmate 'happened' to serve as the American consul in Kovno, Poland when Rabbi Miller and his young family sought to flee Nazi persecution. The Yad Hashem sent him back to American shores where i think he assumed a Rabbinic position in Massachussets before eventually making his way back to NY where he was marbitz Torah in Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin in the days of Rov Yitzchak Hutner, ZTL, until his son, Rov Shmuel Miller, opened a yeshiva in flatbush where Rov Avigdor Miller served as Rosh Yeshiva.


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106. moderate the posts     7/14/09 - 4:18 PM
tzvi

This site shoould be moderated not the comments but the actual posts and articles, Rabbi Horowitz would have credibility if he gets a hashgacha on the stuff he writes.


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107. Violent reaction to abuse charges     7/15/09 - 2:38 AM
Ak

Hi,

Unfortunately another abuse case by a now ' sick' woman probably also abused.

what is more disturbing is the violent reaction and intimidation against the social services

where is the community support for this woman and her family

It is also the negative attitude to psychologists and social workers as represented here by Matis which is leading to many kids and their families not being treated and getting professional help

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