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Hafganos Begin at Home
Time to Stand up for True K'vod Shamayim
by Rabbi Yakov Horowitz

  Rated by 48 users   |   Viewed 3417 times since 7/5/09   |   51 Comments
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7/5/09

Let’s start with a simple multiple choice question:

What is a greater Chillul Hashem?

A) Non-observant Jews, who never had the benefit of a Torah education, driving cars on Shabbos?

B) Identifiably frum people throwing rocks at police officers on Shabbos and yelling things at them in full view of the media, like, “[anyone who desecrates Shabbos] "must die." And "You will burn in the fire of hell!" (Read this and weep.)

I cannot for the life of me understand how any decent human being, let alone an ehrliche Yid who was raised learning Torah and grew up hearing stories of the Chofetz Chaim can answer anything but “B.”

And I’ll take it a step further and say that anyone who answers choice “A” did not learn the same Torah and the same mesorah that my generation was taught by Reb Moshe and Reb Yakov, Reb Ahron and Rav Hutner, Rav Pam and Rav Ruderman, zichronom tzadikim l’vracha.

And if you feel that the images of a crowd of angry and violent people who dress like you and I, hurling curses at police officers broadcast around the world is a colossal Chillul Hashem and a true physical danger to the safety and security of frum Jews worldwide, I pose the following question:

What are we as Torah Jews obligated to protest first?

A) Non-observant Jews, who never had the benefit of a Torah education, driving cars on Shabbos?

B) Identifiably frum people throwing rocks at police officers on Shabbos and yelling things at them in full view of the media, like, “[anyone who desecrates Shabbos] "must die." And "You will burn in the fire of hell!"

So; let the next protest be called to peacefully and civilly proclaim loudly and clearly, first to our own impressionable children, and then to all decent citizens of the world that this tiny minority of violent radicals does not represent us.

You and I know with certainty that our gedolim shlit”a do not sanction nor support any expression of violence. But the public at large does not know that, and paints all of us with one broad brush. It is for that reason that I am once again writing about this topic.

Tens of thousands gathered a week ago for a beautiful and moving Kabbolas Shabbos to protest Chillul Shabbos in a responsible and peaceful way; while some irresponsibly rioted and burned garbage cans all week long.

We who know what true Yiddishkeit is all about, have a positive role to play. I feel with every fiber of my body that each and every decent Yid worldwide has an achrayus to write letters and emails to every media outlet informing them that these hooligans do not speak for us. For we have no right preaching to others until we have removed this horrible stain from our own kehilos.

And it will remain that way until we change things.

I respectfully ask my readers to take a moment to cut and paste the following text and send it to the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz; two newspapers with worldwide readership, which covered this story – and to pass this on to people on your email lists and ask them to do the same. It is my goal that each of the two newspapers receive a minimum of 1,000 emails within 24 hours, and that then, hopefully, there will be a news story that Torah Jews stood up for the values we hold so dear.

“As a Torah Jew, I am deeply distressed by the desecration of Shabbos in our holy land -- all the more so when it is government sanctioned. However, nothing can ever excuse the type of violence and wanton destruction of public property that has been reported in recent days such as the throwing of rocks at police officers and the burning of garbage dumpsters – all of which is diametrically opposed to the teachings of our Holy Torah. Lest our silence be misconstrued as passive acceptance of the violence, we condemn it in the strongest terms, as do the vast, overwhelming, majority of Torah Jews worldwide.”

UPDATE I was forwarded this link about the firsthand accounting of a reporter who was SPIT ON http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/06/2617502.htm by a mob of "hundreds." Note that she reported that the hooligans were wearing shtreimlech. So don't believe it when people say "it's only kids" (only married people wear shtreimlich except for a few who wear after bar mitzvah.) I would like to say that I don't believe it. However, I do. I have personally seen charedi hooligans spitting on women who were not dressed according to their standards. This report disgusted me beyond words and I am shamed that we have such barbaric savages in our midst. I have no other way to say this other than we need a total revolution at this point. The vast majority of us decent charedim need to peacefully revolt with every weapon in our arsenal. There is no middle ground. Whoever does not publicly protest these disgusting acts has a hand in allowing them. How dare we protest the sins of others when we have such uncivilized people wearing our levush and representing us before the world media? Whoever funds mosdos that have members of theirs committing these crimes like this is guilty as well. My friends, our gloves need to come off. There is no other way.



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1. excellent but...     7/5/09 - 6:53 PM
anonymousfornow

Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz. But while it's true that this was the Torah our generation was taught, all those gedolim are gone. Aren't there talmidim of theirs of whom you can say the same, and who will go on record saying such?


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2. Saw this on Yeshiva World     7/5/09 - 9:14 PM
Kiruv Rabbi

Shabbos is not negotiable, you must protest its honor. But, the current approach is a disaster. It's turning more frum people off, instead of turning on the secular.

When dealing with an at-risk population, and the secular who truly don't know better Yemin Mekareves is what works.

1. Having people who can calmly and cool-headedly "make the case" on the defense of Shabbos will soften the animosity towards it.

2. THE most effective tool if you want to "gouge the eyes" of those doing chillul Shabbos is showing love to them. Have a few tables with Shabbos refreshment packages (grape juice, challah, and bamba) with a little Good Shabbos note, letting them note that hopefully one day they will appreciate the love of Shabbos, until then we as your brother are there for you with all our love and concern.

Laugh all you want about these two techniques, but they get results within six months close to 100% of the time. These are the approaches Rabbi Finkel in Chicago uses for all issues affecting those in need of spiritual yeshuos. True love of people can drown away ALL doubts about religion. Fix the physical/emotional issues and the spiritual follows as a result.


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3. Thank you Rabbi Horowitz     7/5/09 - 9:31 PM
Ari - SIlver Spring, MD

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Your "voice of reason" is so refreshing, so encouraging and so real that it makes me quiver to think that anyone could disagree. Some people will continue to defend the indefensible, but B"H there is a strong voice online calling out this shameless behavior!

Thank you again! Ari


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4.     7/5/09 - 10:12 PM
Rebbetzin Bobbie Lanner - Paramus, NJ - blannerb@aol.com

Dear Rabbi Horowitz,

I agree that something should be done about this. Even charedim can use some extra education & musar. Do we know who their shule Rav or Rosh Yeshivah is? Can we go via that derech before we go public with this?


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5. Shita of Belzer Rebbes     7/5/09 - 11:49 PM
chaim - catskills

The Belzer Rebbe shlita is against all forms of demonstrations against the secular Israeli government. His position is that we are unfurtunately in galus among our fellow Jews, which is a terrible form of galus, and we cannot influence them by force. The previous BEzer Rebbe was also against demonstration, the only demonstarion he participated in was against giyus bonos (drafting women into the IDF. the ONLY way to reduce chillul shabbos is by supporting organizations such as Tzohar, Torah V'emunah, Ohr Somaoch, Arachim, Lev L'achim, Chabad, etc. MEat min haor doche harbe minhachoshech (a little bit of light pushes away a multitude of darkness.)


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6. Protesting Chillul Shabbos or adding to it?     7/6/09 - 7:01 AM
Doniels - Yerusholayim - doniels@gmail.com

As always, Rav Yakov Horowitz gets it right.

The thought going through my head is: How many traditional policemen were Mechalel Shabbos because of these protests?

Who can afford to take responsibility for causing this mass Chilul Shabbos?


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7. Time for Adults to Take Over     7/6/09 - 7:13 AM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey NY

We all know what it is like as parents when we have a few overtired, wild children roughhousing in the family room.

At that point, what is needed is a parent to come in and "make order"

Well, a group of out-of-control thugs have been running wild and destroying the shem tov of our community for far too long. We adults need to take over.

We need to peacefully protest the greatest chilul Hashem of our lifetime, we need to encourage the police to arrest and lock up the criminals, and we need to stop funding all mosdos that support this violence.

Yesterday, I got a call from a significant American ba'al tzedaka who called me while he was in middle of a meeting with a well-known Rosh Yeshiva from Eretz Yisroel. He informed me that he is witholding all support to his yeshiva until he hears him address his talmidim in public and condemn the violence in the strongest terms.

We cannot allow these hooligans to speak for us any longer.

If you cannot find the time to send the 2 emails noted above, don't ever complain again about the violence again.


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8. Time for a revolution     7/6/09 - 7:35 AM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey/NY

I was forwarded this link about the firsthand accounting of a reporter who was SPIT ON

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/06/2617502.htm

by a mob of "hundreds." Note that she reported that the hooligans were wearing shtreimlech. So don't believe it when people say "it's only kids" (only married people wear shtreimlich except for a few who wear after bar mitzvah.)

I would like to say that I don't believe it. However, I do. I have personally seen charedi hooligans spitting on women who were not dressed according to their standards. This report disgusted me beyond words and I am shamed that we have such barbaric savages in our midst. I have no other way to say this other than we need a total revolution at this point. The vast majority of us decent charedim need to peacefully revolt with every weapon in our arsenal. There is no middle ground. Whoever does not publicly protest these disgusting acts has a hand in allowing them. How dare we protest the sins of others when we have such uncivilized people wearing our levush and representing us before the world media? Whoever funds mosdos that have members of theirs committing these crimes like this is guilty as well. My friends, our gloves need to come off. There is no other way.


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9. Hakesef Ya:aneh es Hakol     7/6/09 - 9:25 AM
David Willig - Far Rockaway , NY - rabbidw@cs.com

The best answer is the answer of you wealthy philanthropist in number. I have cut off all my charities to chareidi institutions because I have not heard of ONE that has condemned the violence. BTW my niece, who was studying in a seminary in Yerushalayim, and was dressed in a tzniyusdik fashion. had bleach thrown on her skirt, ruining it. IMHO the laws of the state must be enforced with no exemption for religious motivations. Muggers and rioters must be jailed. If the sight of a violation of Torah law, whether shabbos or tzniyus so excites a person feels compels to riot or do violence, they should either stay indoors or be committed to an insane asylum.


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10. Thank you     7/6/09 - 10:22 AM
Hinda - Jerusalem Israel

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for expressing what so many of us feel, but don't know how to go about "doing something". The wording of your letter has moved many of us to take action. May this violence stop speedily and may we learn to love our neighbours just as the Torah commands.


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11. Kol HaKavod     7/6/09 - 10:23 AM
David Staum - dstaum@gmail.com

...for writing this, Rabbi Hororwitz


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12. Some reports are untrue and misleading     7/6/09 - 10:25 AM
Anonymous

Dear Rabbi I agree with what you are saying, but would like to point out that the Israeli Press has targeted biased and untrue reports about our community - so everyone should check the real facts before coming to conclusions about our community.

I do think that in Israel it's important to demonstrate the breaking of the status Quo by the secular in Jerusalem - but I'm not sure what can be done to prevent the violence.

Here is a letter that I sent to Y-NET after seeing a blatantly anti-Torah Observant headline:- I object to the headline on Y-Net which is misleading, untrue and biased reporting. Your headline states:- “Thousands of ultra-Orthodox rioters hurl stones at security forces” on http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3741131,00.html

Later on in the article it becomes clear than in fact thousands did not throw stones – thousands came to the demonstration, “some protestors formed a human chain in a bid to hinder police efforts to remove them from the scene of one protest” and “Elsewhere in the capital, ultra-Orthodox rioters hurled stones at vehicles traveling in northern Jerusalem”. The stone throwers were not even at the demonstration – I suggest you correct this blatantly false anti-hareidi reporting and take issue with this article with Ronen Medzini. It’s an insult to Israelis and law abiding ‘Hareidi’ people.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the media bias against the Orthodox here in Israel is not dissimilar to the propaganda used by Goebbels and the Nazi party against the Jews in the 1930’s

I see that Ynet did revise the text of the article but I still have issues with their linking of the stone throwing to the march -which may be unrelated in this case.


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13. The Real Chilul HASHEM     7/6/09 - 11:23 AM
Respectfully Disagree

As Diaspora Jews we should not get involved in disputes where we do not belong. We definitely should not write letters to the Chiloni (secular) Jerusalem Post, which may be misconstrued as support for Chilul Shabbat.

Let us focus, instead, on our own problems.


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14. Baruch Hashem for Rabbi H.     7/6/09 - 12:28 PM
Tammy - Brooklyn

Thank You Rabbi Horowitz for your concrete suggestion with what to do. I am so grateful to actually have a 'tachlis' oriented suggestion that hopefully will impact others.Once again,you are a beacon of light and 'sechel' in this ever troubling world. May Hashem continue to bentch you with Bracha and Hatzlacha in all your endeavors!


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15. I think you missed the point     7/6/09 - 12:42 PM
??? ?????

You cannot address the issue without looking at the greater context. Lopolianksy as Mayor opened municipal parking lots, no one said boo. When Barkat wnats to open a private parking lot using a Shabbos Goy, the Edah seeing a Chiloni mayor, saw an opening to call the shots again in Chareidi Jerusalem, and made a ruckus that very few were able to stand up to. Can you say for sure that the municipality shouldn't open these lots? Without them there are many accidents waiting to happen R"L.

Those who protest chillul shabbos randomly after being coaxed by extremists, are directly responsible for what happens afterwards.

Moreover, your comments beforehand regarding the JPost article don't go far enough. You know quite well that the Chareidi World functions off askanim manipulating the leadership, as you wrote. Of course in any other context that wouldn't be tolerated. Truman said "The Buck Stops Here" Shmuel Hanavi, LHavdil said, "Hebrew text" Those people that give lip service to Daas Torah while blaming askanim for all ills on earth are being dishonest. If askanim can use Gedolai Yisrael like that, then Daas Torah will become irrelevant.


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16. And they want 100% of funding from Us Secular ISRAELIS for these schools?     7/6/09 - 2:31 PM
HARRY - JERUSALEM

OVER MY DEAD BODY


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17. To #13     7/6/09 - 3:17 PM
bk

I am surprised by your post.

You state that

"1. Diaspora Jews should stay away from what goes on in Eretz Yisroel

2. A letter to JPost can be understood as a support for hillul Shabbos."

It is beyond me how a letter condemning hillul Shabbos in the very first line can be understood as a vote of support for violating Shabbos

At the same time, staying quiet in a situation like this means adding to massive hillul H-shem - something that is, possibly, even more grave than hillul Shabbos. The fact that it takes place in Yerushalaim - the center of the world - only adds to the urgency of the situation.


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18. looking for more     7/6/09 - 4:02 PM
Anonymous

Rabbi,

What gloves should we take off? What exactly do you want/need us to do (besides sending the emails)?


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19. the common denominator     7/6/09 - 4:46 PM
Jim Jones - Bet Shemesh

of the list of Gdolim R. Horowitz lists as whom we are 'normal' recieved a mesora from is that these are all European born Rabbonim who were leaders of AMERICAN Jews.

I think that speaks volumes. (this is not to malign cholila Israeli Gedolim, cholila, v'ain kan mokom l'haarich vhamavin yovin)

Agav, the impression I get from Israelis Haredim is that with the exception of R' Moshe, they do not really hold American Gedolim in much regard. I guess they were not radical enough. (not that R' Moshe was a radical, cholila, etc.)

Just some food for thought.


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20. Please Guide Us!!     7/6/09 - 5:04 PM
Torah Supporters - Chicago

Obviously, we as Americans must stop financially strengthening the hands of the wild Cossaks in Israel.

BUT....

Our concern is with this initiative's potentially crippling real-world impact on Jewish schools and institutions that are the very lifeblood of the Israeli community.

What do you reccomend doing???


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21. very important; we must all take it to heart     7/6/09 - 7:08 PM
Rocco Lampone - KitBrain71@yahoo.com

There are people who are reconsidering opening their doors for Yerusahlmy Jews who come collecting for their families. Thank G-d, they took Rabbi Horowitz's insightful word to heart, and they are reluctant to give to Hanchnusus Kallah funds for people who don't protest the violence as loud as they should be.

Why should they support the establishment of families who might raise a violent rioter?

These people are considering donating to secular organizations who cause less of Chillul Hashem than the Charedi ones.

This is very good new, because, it demonstrates how Rabbi Horowitz's initiatives increase Kvod Shamoyim.

Please keep up the good work


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22. to Rabbi Horowitz     7/6/09 - 9:40 PM
anonymousfornow

I know you're busy, not just on this site, but I think things here have reached a point where some sort of response and further clarity is needed. Thanks!


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23. Why aren't the Gedolim denouncing this     7/7/09 - 1:51 AM
Anonymous

Why aren't the Gedolim denouncing this violence which they encouraged by calling for these demonstrations??????????


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24. Five stars...KOL HAKAVODE!!!     7/7/09 - 4:00 AM
Anonymous


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25. Dangerous Deductions - don't miss the point!!!     7/7/09 - 5:06 AM
MS - RBS

I am concerned that although Rabbi Horowitz does suggest that it may be a good idea to withold funding from certain institutions, if this will help to get the Roshei Yeshiva to condemn and curtail the violence, this was not a calling to halt funding to Yeshivos as some of you seem to be indicating. We belong to the Yeshiva world and we all understand that without yeshivos, klal yisroel would fast dissapear. Yeshivos are in enough trouble now that they do not need additional funding cuts. It may be a good idea to ask the Roshei Yeshivos to get up and talk publicly about Chillul Hashem, but please do not take drastic steps without asking a Rov. Rabbi Horowitz: please confirm that your intention was not for people to halt funding to yeshivos.


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26. How many are really violent Rabbi?     7/7/09 - 7:17 AM
Mordy

I see that this is an emotionally charged issue for your Rabbi. I don't live in Yerushalyim, nor do I know anyone at the protests.

How reliable are the news reports? How many people were actually violent at these demonstrations? How many were just present to protest in person? Trying to get the facts and not the sensationalism.

I do agree with the premise, that a violent protest regarding this issue is self defeating. However, Rabbi, how do you suggest they should protest constructively? Thanks.


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27. yasher koach!     7/7/09 - 7:59 AM
Judah - Bergenfield, NJ

yasher koach for speaking obvious, but unpopular, truths.


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28. Nice message, but wrong recipient     7/7/09 - 9:45 AM
Yossie Abramson

R' Horowitz, Perhaps sending the message to the "gedolim" in EY would be more appropriate?


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29. I Agree 100%     7/7/09 - 10:04 AM
Daniel - Baltimore, MD

Rabbi Horowitz,

I fully agree. Unfortunately, those who burn garbage cans may dress like Bnei Torah but are very far from even being simple Erliche Yidden. What is interesting is that these hooligans may claim to follow Daas Torah in other areas, but from their actions it is clear that they only do so when Daas Torah is consistent with their own opinions.

Please include the e-mail addresses for the two newspapers - clicking on the link does not work on my computer.


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30. Rav Schach     7/7/09 - 10:07 AM
Elliot Pasik - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

Saw this recently -

A talmid asked Rav Elazar Man Schach, ztl, Do you think this dor is on a higher madreigah than previous doros because we ask more sheilahs to gedolim. Rav Schach answered, No, you're on a lower medreigah because you can't think for yourselves.


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31. And our 'Leaders' are silent     7/7/09 - 10:33 AM
Yisrael

I lived in Israel for 4 years, and I can virtually guarantee that there isn't a single poster hung up anywhere in Me'ah She'arim, or anywhere else for that matter, denouncing this violence. If the gedolim of Israel can rally together a peaceful gathering to daven kabalas shabbas, why can't they rally together a united condemnation of this collosal chilul Hashem?

I have lost so much faith in these 'gedolim' I honestly don't even care anymore.


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32. misunderstanding     7/7/09 - 1:59 PM
LW - Brooklyn, NY

i may have missed this part, but as far as i can see, Rabbi Horowitz did NOT mention withholding funding from any charities. i happen to agree that, unfortunately, money is the only thing that talks in this day and age, BUT i did not see that option as one of the suggestions Rabbi Horowitz made to keep these mishegoim from blackening the name of all frum Jews.

Also, to those who say that making a public statement would be a chillul Hashem, sorry to burst your bubble, but the chillul Hashem has happened already. by not publicly denouncing this atrocity, we are lending it our support. and that is not me saying this, but those far, far wiser than i - Sh'tikah K'Hodah (silence is acknowlegement of truth/giving something your stamp of approval).

As a side note, i studied in Yerushalayim in semenary a few years ago, and one of the things that struck me very forcefully was the antagonism that fellow Jews (Charedi and Chiloni) had for each other. B"H not all Jews feel this way, but enough that it saddens me whenever i think about it. some of the other posters mentioned being Mi'Karev people with love and understanding. i completely agree, you get more bees with honey rather than with vinegar.

thank you Rabbi Horowitz for, once again, standing up for what is right, not what is popular. you truely are a great leader. may Hashem grant you and your family strength in all that you do.

thank you again.


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33.     7/7/09 - 3:35 PM
tzvi

It is not the media or the public that paints all charedim with a broad brush it is a site such as this one that never misses an opportunity to find an extreme case or some fringe group and publicize it for your own benefit by bashing all charedim as one. enough of your hate rabbi horowitz get off the world wide web and come into the yeshivos and batei midrashim of klal yisroel that is where true yiddishkeit is,not career building and self promomting by bashing and spewing hate against our gedolim.


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34. Askonim     7/7/09 - 4:36 PM
Concerned

How can we pressure the askonim behind the rioting to shape up? They are brazen and not very responsive to Israeli media!


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35. We lost Gush Katif because we were so nice and naive     7/7/09 - 5:41 PM
Sam

I agree with what you wrote, but don't be naive regarding the Israeli police who often start the violence themselves and then blame it on the other side. I remember the peaceful demonstrations for not dismantling Gush Katif and how we were so naive and where it got us.........


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36. gadlus     7/7/09 - 6:04 PM
Anonymous

"R' Horowitz, Perhaps sending the message to the "gedolim" in EY would be more appropriate?"

For all you out there who are frustrated with Rabbonim for failing to lead in the way you wish they would lead--don't you see? They are simply NOT who you want them to be! They are who they are AND SHOULD BE APPRECIATED AS SUCH, not cast into the role of your fantasies!

BH, There are pple--and Rabbi Horowitz, Hashem yishalem scharo, is one of them-- who ARE offering the direction you seek. He is also offering each and every one of us the means to become our own 'gedolim' in dealing with the current situation in a way that rises to the occasion with genuine gadlus. We can either keep wishing our heroes step in to save the day, or, as Rabbi Horowitz said, we can remove our gloves, roll up our sleeves, and get down on our hands and knees to elevate ourselves.

Is there really a choice?


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37. Believe what you read? Or believe what you see?     7/7/09 - 7:11 PM
CJ Srullowitz - New York City - cloojew@yahoo.com

I'm not here to defend the despicable behavior of certain Jews in Jerusalem. However, it behooves one to recognize that the number of such people is limited.

The Jerusalem Post reported that "several hundred haredim" protested this past Shabbos. That was in contradistinction to the "largely peaceful Friday night prayer vigil attended by tens of thousands of participants" last week. Notice the difference in numbers? Something like 20-to-1.

And what of those hundreds? While the story of the reporter from ABC news is reprehensible, it is worthwhile to watch the accompanying video, which paints a different picture. The Chareidim involved are not pushing, but being pushed. They seem to be chanting more than screaming, "Shabbos, Shabbos." No one looks violent, and no one is throwing anything.

None of which is to say that screaming, cursing, spitting and throwing rocks did not occur. Someone was hospitalized last week by a falling rock, so clearly the rock was thrown. But: if that video is representative of what occurred, it's quite tame.

Watch the video and judge for yourself: http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200907/r394610_1846815.asx

http://www.luleidemistafina.blogspot.com


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38. SAD     7/7/09 - 8:31 PM
david - monsey, NY

until i read your comments on the Yerushalaim protests in the Jerusalem Post i had a lot of respect for you for all the causes that you seemed to stand for, and i thought you were a true person. however we now see your true colors, you don't stand for the causes, you use the causes to raise your status for your own interests. Where do you come off questioning the Gedoilem of our generation as to what is right or wrong according to the Torah? do you actually believe that your knowledge of Torah comes close to any of the Gedoilem of the Eda Charaides that you permit yourself to not pnly question them for yourself but you have the chitzpa to publicly talk against them.

just remember that all the good that you may have accomplished while (it is now obvious) you were building your own self image, is being damaged by this insult of our Gedoilem, and i strongly suggest that you take the time to rethink and apologize.


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39. Huh?     7/7/09 - 9:03 PM
CJ Srullowitz - New York City - cloojew@yahoo.com

David of Monsey,

What are you, lulei demistafina, talking about?!

Did you READ what the rabbi WROTE:

"You and I know with certainty that our gedolim shlit”a do not sanction nor support any expression of violence. But the public at large does not know that, and paints all of us with one broad brush."

At what point is Rabbi Horowitz "questioning the Gedoilem of our generation"? His criticism is aimed at the thugs who commit violence and chilul Hashem, and who, by their actions, defy the will of the Gedolim.

I believe that it is you who needs to apologize, my friend.


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40. I agree, but look at what happens to people who don't use violence here?     7/8/09 - 3:22 AM
Jewwess - Jerusalem

I have been living in Israel since 1971. I would not instruct my children to go and throw burning garbage cans in to the street.

On the other hand, look at the "State created refugees" from Gush Katif, years after they were thrown out if there!! These people were exceptionally nice and did not want to fight with anyone, B"H, but instead of being treated well and compensated for all they lost (not to mention the emotional anguish they are still suffering and the prevalent physical illnesses that many of them have suffered) and being helped by the State, many of them are still with no employment or housing after giving themselves completely for the cause of building the country (sent by the governments!)/ Even left wing Israelis can not stop themselves from having pity on how these people have been treated.

The fact is, that if the Gus Katif "refugees" would protest "undemocratically" and the government would be afraid of them, I can't help but think that their situation would have been dealt with and solved years ago. It is sad to acknowledge that 40,000 people davening in the street on Friday night, accomplishes less than the violent protests in Meah Shearim and the government and the media are the ones to blame.

IMHO, You who live in America should stop criticizing and judging what goes on here when you don't even understand the atmosphere here. Also, putting all of the Charedim in to one basket may seem an easy solution, but very simplistic and unsophisticated and surprises me as I thought the American Jews prided themselves on there openness.


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41.     7/9/09 - 10:32 AM
chaim - baltimore - land6@verizon.net

Thanks you for your courage to stand up to such a fundamental evil falsely wraught on behalf of the greater good of Torah Judaism. I am right behind you. The tragedy, as you correctly observe, is the silence of the majority of the observant community - that's why people like you need to speak out....Chaim Landau


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42.     7/10/09 - 12:58 AM
Anonymous

Why do we respect the demonstrators in Iran against their Government, but in Israel we have to take on our chin all what the Govt. is shoving down our throats? Why can the state of NJ enforce the Blue Law on a big part of the state,and the municipality of Jerusalem cant respect the will of its population


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43. to # 42     7/10/09 - 2:00 AM
m.l.

sorry, correction. u & #40 make...what ..nj...? thanks


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44. Two Experiences Regarding Shabbos and the Non-Frum (a.k.a. Not Yet Frum)     7/10/09 - 8:13 AM
Daniel - Baltimore, MD

1.) I am trying to order a rare Sefer from a warehouse in a not very Frum Israeli city. I just spoke to a woman at the warehouse (she speaks a perfect English), who told me that they haven't located the Sefer yet, but that it may be in one of their other warehouses. She said that if they don't locate it today [Friday], they should hopefully find it by tomorrow [this is not Jerusalem, as you can tell]. I replied that I greatly appreciate it, but that, if the Sefer does not turn up today, it can wait until Sunday (much as I want the Sefer soon, I obviously don't want to be responsible for any Chillul Shabbos. Of course, I can't control whether she follows my instructions, but I hope that she does). She then wished me a nice weekend. Not to make her uncomfortable, I began by wishing her a nice weekend too, but then I added "and have a good Shabbos."

2.) More significant, in May, the Baltimore Frum community held a peaceful rally in support of Shabbos, in response to the Owings Mills JCC planning to open on Shabbos afternoons. The rally was attended by about 5,000 people, and was a beautiful Kiddush Hashem. Unfortunately, the JCC opened anyway. However, had we made a violent, or even a disrespectful protest, not only would we have accomplished nothing, but we would have made a Chillul Hashem to boot. If only Yerushalayim would follow Baltimore's example in this area. Of course, we have a lot to learn from them, but they have at least this to learn from us.


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45. Where are the gedolim     7/12/09 - 10:13 AM
mordecai

I agree with all that you wrote. I am asking you where are all the gedolie torah marching on shabbos in a peaceful march, with permission, opposite the hooligans. This would show the chilonim and the media that most frum people dont hold like these nuts.


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46. Part of a larger picture     7/12/09 - 10:39 AM
Anonymous

There is an additional element I have not yet seen directly addressed on any of the threads dealing with the violent protests lemaan kedushas Shabbos. The chillul Hashem surrounding the hafganos and the negative judgments they engender are NOT isolated nor specific to these events. If we are condemned in the eyes of the chilonim, it is not only because of these recent outrages; if anything, the secularists merely interpret the hafganos as confirmation of their previous impressions. Where did those impressions come from?

What i am trying to say is that by focusing exclusively on the current events in Yerushalayim, specifically those details relating to the Shabbos demonstrations, we are missing the larger picture. Problems relating to the demonstration represent the tip of the iceberg. A broader perspective requires that we honestly examine the history of mutual hostilities and deep-running cynicism which color our entire relationship with our secular counterparts. If we think we are completely innocent we are in denial.


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47. What do the gedolim say?     9/4/09 - 2:45 PM
Yehuda - NY

Rabbi Horowitz writes "You and I know with certainty that our gedolim shlit”a do not sanction nor support any expression of violence". How does he know this? I admit that the perceived power of the gedolim is less than absolute for various reasons, but I have not heard anything other than a request to tone down the violence. I hope and pray that the gedolim do oppose this kind of violence, but part of me is equally disappointed that they have not condemned it. I don't speak on behalf of any talmid chacham, and would like to hear them speak for themselves.


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48. 47     9/4/09 - 4:52 PM
Anonymous

Do you expect your favorite gadol hador to knock on your door to bring you an explanation of his position? if you would like an explanation either in private or in public, be assertive--set up an appt. and ask for one! Our gedolim are approachable, B"H, and they do listen and respond.


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49. re: 48     9/6/09 - 11:46 PM
Yehuda - NY

This is an issue of public policy, not a private Shailah. Many great Rabanim have commented on (in my opinion) far less pressing matters in the form of Kol Koreh and other public statements. Obviously in order to get these protests started, a Shailah (or at least an Eitzah) should have been presented to any number of leading authorities, and their responses should be presented in the form of written Teshuvos as they have been for the last 1300 or so years. We have been analyzing, criticizing, and defending the Piskei Halacha and Hashkafa of our sages in our Batei Medrash since the Torah Sheb'al Peh was written down by Rebbi.

This generation should be presented with the same opportunity instead of being left to speculate on what we "know" 'The Gedolim' would say. Furthermore, it is certainly likely the many different Gedolim will have varying opinions on this matter, as our sages have had on almost every matter in Halacha and Hashkafa over the generations, and it is woefully insufficient to claim that 'The Gedolim' or 'Daas Torah' says one indisputable opinion (which happens to coincide with my own agenda).

This is why it is imperative that the great Rabanim of our time make their views known in the same manner that their predecessors have, and not allow the masses to speculate.


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50. 49     9/7/09 - 8:39 AM
Anonymous

Ive said this many times: There is an inherent contradiction in the idea of demanding and extracting leadership. If a gadol does not independently offer the broader-scale guidance, more assertive leadership we would most appreciate, he is just not the visionary, responsive, bold leader we would prefer. He is not less of a person, just a different sort of a person than we would like him to be--and that is his choice.

If a Rav participates in kol korei after kol korei concerning matters you consider trivial but remains silent on issues you consider paramount, then clearly you need to look elsewhere for the guidance that is meaningful to you. It is immature and self-defeating to keep whining about how our Rabbonim fail us. A more evolved view of Rabbonim is capable of appreciating whatever guidance and insight they do offer, reaching out and seeking their input when we need it, and simultaneously recognizing that Rabbonim are human beings who don't operate in accordance to the dictates of our wishes and needs--any more than anyone else does.

Left, at times, feeling lost and frustrated, we would do best to channel this disappointment in the form of the tefillah in Shmonei Esreh which asks Hashem to restore our leadership to its power and clarity in the days of old.

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