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One A.M. – One Week Later
by Rabbi Yakov Horowitz

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8/8/07

Last week, I ran a column entitled, “It’s One A.M. – Do You Know Where Your Children Are?” describing the “scene” in and around the pool hall in Monticello, New York, where hundreds of unsupervised teenage boys and girls were hanging out, drinking, and using drugs. There, I noted that some of the kids in the pool hall said that they and their friends rented bungalows in non-Jewish colonies or motel rooms throughout the Catskills where they regularly party from Thursday night until Monday morning – including Shabbos.

If I needed validation that things were as described, it came in the form of a published article in The Middletown Record, the newspaper serving the Catskill Mountain area, the very day that The Jewish Press hit the newsstands.

Five arrested after cops break up South Fallsburg party

August 01, 2007

South Fallsburg - Police arrested five men over the weekend after getting complaints about a house where kids were being served alcohol and people were smoking marijuana.


Fallsburg police got the calls Saturday night, and between 9 and 10 p.m. they went to the address on Laurel Avenue in South Fallsburg. Police say they broke up a large party at the house and arrested five males, all between the ages of 17 and 21. Police said that those arrested were among the oldest people at the party, and some of them had supplied the alcohol to the younger partyers. Police said the partygoers were summer residents.
The five men were freed pending appearances in Fallsburg Town Court. (emphasis mine.)

Those arrested were all frum kids from Brooklyn and Monsey, and their names were published in accounts of the arrests in other newspapers. (FYI; Shabbos ended well after 9 p.m. that week, so if the police got calls, responded, arrived, “between 9 and 10 p.m.” and found at that time “a large party,” – well, you do the math.)

So, I guess you are wondering how things turned out this past Motzoei Shabbos?

Well, I am pleased to report that things were far better the previous weekend – in no small part due to the awareness generated by the dissemination of the column. Countless parents whose teens are spending the summer in the Catskills shared copies of the column with each other in printed and email formats. I know of several bungalow colonies where the article was clipped from the paper and posted on the shul’s bulletin board. Two popular frum bloggers wrote essays about the issue last Wednesday and more than 1,100 people reviewed the article on my website alone – not counting those who forwarded it to their email lists.

Additionally, concrete steps were taken to improve things on the ground. Quite a few bungalow colony owners called staff meetings with their day-camp counselors and initiated curfews for those traveling off grounds on Motzoei Shabbos. A Brooklyn Rav and his lay leaders made arrangements with the pool hall owner in Monticello to have its use limited to boys after midnight. He also rented Liberty Lanes, a popular bowling alley in Liberty, New York, for the exclusive use of girls. The Rav arranged for adult supervision in both locations and provided homebound transportation for the girls after their time in the bowling alley. (It is interesting to note that the number of boys in the pool hall was similar to that of the previous week, but there were far fewer girls out and around this past Motzoei Shabbos. And those girls who were at Liberty Lanes repeatedly thanked the adults present for providing them with a risk-free enjoyable venue where they won’t “get in trouble.”)

As I see things, there are several important take-away lessons to be learned from this evolving episode:

To begin with, awareness matters. As difficult as it is for us to write and publish columns of this nature, it is really the only way to generate the type of awareness that allows parents and community leaders to proactively respond to the challenges we collectively face.

Additionally, we need not throw up our hands and feel resigned to accept things as they are. We must feel empowered to parent our children effectively and set limits for them that will keep them safe – and alive. We also need to get behind the efforts of the rabbis and lay leaders who are working to help save our children – with our time and our financial resources.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we should resist the seductive route of merely ‘banning’ places and activities for our growing teen population. It is entirely appropriate to declare certain areas off limits for our children. But if we do not create healthy, safe, and enjoyable venues for our children, we are deluding ourselves into thinking that we have solved the problems and are setting the stage for far greater challenges later on.

Ten years ago, we ‘banned’ Woodbourne, for some very good reasons. There were pronouncements in a variety of Jewish publications forbidding our children from appearing in Woodbourne on Motzoei Shabbos. There was also a concerted effort made by Hatzolah leadership and camp directors to limit the driving of teenagers who spend their summers in camps and bungalow colonies. These initiatives were effective in taming the environment in Woodbourne and reducing the number of horrific car crashes. What we have not done, however, is really address the core causes that are driving so many of our young men and woman to the fringes of our society. Nor have we been creating enough supervised, appropriate venues for our children (including mainstream ones) to spend their free time.

Our disenfranchised kids, some of whom may not be that book smart and academically gifted, figured out the “new math” pretty quickly.

Woodbourne, no. Monticello, yes.

Frum pizza shops, no. Non-Jewish pool halls, yes.

Public areas, no. Motels and apartments in non-Jewish neighborhoods, yes.

Somehow, that doesn’t add up to me.

© 2007 Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, all rights reserved



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1. SOLUTION # 1 is VARMKEIT = YIDISHKEIT     8/8/07 - 1:48 PM
Anonymous

SOLUTION # 1 is VARMKEIT = YIDISHKEIT

YES a rebbe schmozzing with a talmid over a bowl of cholent, with his arm around the kid is something NEEDED TODAY!! Its not just for the ‘at risk kid’ but for ALL kids, no matter what, when and where they are on the ‘yidishkeit’/ ‘frumkeit’ level.

YES, a parent should stop focusing on whether his son gets good grades in gemarah, or can make a ‘layning’ etc. – FIRST and FORMOST in TODAYS society is preserving our YIDISHKEIT. Making being a YID a GESHMAKER ‘thing’ – and that includes some levity and WARM heimishekeit with our kids. STOP demanding and putting ALL EMPHASIS on ‘grades’ and forcing our kids to be ‘studious’ - yes its important, but not the EIKAR in raising our kids to be EHRLICHA YIDDIN, and to LOVE to be a YIDDIN. SING zemiros by the table, stop being so KALT about yidishkeit, make yiddishkeit a WARM geshmake lifestyle!!!

This must start in kindergarden ALL THE WAY THROUGH the child gets married!! NO STOPPING!!!


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2. THANK YOU     8/8/07 - 4:08 PM
Nechama

I feel like crying in sheer gratitude for the actions of these dedicated individuals who made these changes happen. To Rabbi Horowitz shlita, to the concerned parents and Jewish people, to the Rabbinic and lay leaders. Kol HaKovod.

Please, let us get this initiative properly flowing, and find these -all- girls lots of fun, creative, avenues for them to flourish. Maybe when the boys see the girls are not available unless the boys behave respectably, that will encourage them too to want to prove worthy.


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3. Communal responsibility     8/8/07 - 4:18 PM
AK

Hi, Rabbi , your article reminds of "It takes a whole village to raise a child." — Ashanti proverb and that One's responsibility is not only to one's own kids, but to the commmunity at large. In fact you are acting responsibly towards your kids by providing them community, by supporting those who are struggling , because everyone is effected.


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4. Make it a bit more difficult     8/8/07 - 6:10 PM
tb

"Well, I am pleased to report that things were far better than the previous weekend "

With respect, Rabbi Horowitz, they just moved on to another location, I'm sure. I don't want to diminish the importance of your efforts and those of others involved in this fight, but, please don't presume to make statements like the above. I have a couple of suggestions:

1. No teenager, under 18, should be working in any environment other than a supervised camp in the country for the summer. I am annoyed to hear that parents are still allowing their high school kids to work in bungalow colonies where their parents aren't present. Bungalow colony day camps and grocery stores should be banned from hiring them by the Rabanim.

2. No teenagers, under 18, should be allowed off camp grounds on a night off.

3. A curfew should be in place for drivers under the age of 21. Is this possible? I don't know, but work with the villages and see if you can get it passed. Or pick another age that works.

At least 1 and 2 will make it much more difficult for high schoolers to be there. If you are a parent of a high schooler, especially one at risk, yours should be either in a supervised camp setting--no nights off--or at home. I understand that all of you will come up with why these suggestions are impractical and why they are not enough, but, please Rabbi Horowitz address number 1 at least and get it moving for next summer.

This, of course, does not address the preventative strategies that Yeshivas and parents should be employing.


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5. high schoolers     8/8/07 - 6:12 PM
tb

btw, i understand that many of these "kids" are already out of high school--that's how it was in my day too--but I think we need to target the high schoolers right now and worry about the rest secondarily. Legally, the high schoolers and those who hire them are easier to control.


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6.     8/8/07 - 6:49 PM
yoni

i'm not sure what to say other that to agree with TB. likely the kids have moved on, and somehow I think that maybe it is better to let them think that they are getting away with something that they are not, than to goad them into really slipping under the door.

I mean, its like, I think that the essential reason why the boys and girls are going out here is just for that reason, to be around the opposite sex. If they can't do it here, i'm sure they will find some other way to do it. Something tells me that that is the draw, and that the others are mearly secondary "infections".

I would almost say that at some point, what really is the point?

I know some wont like it, but it seems to me that never in the history of any people as anyone really succeeded in this issue, and people who think that they did are fooling themselves. The results of this issue are, evidently, well represented in the responsa litturature, and things like this make me wonder, what truly is the point? is seperating them to this extent really futile?

I don't know, but I get to the point of wondering if maybe we aren't missing something essential to dealing with this issue.

I am wondering if perhaps by being so uptight we are making this issue in to a gateway for much worse things. Thats not to say that pritzus is the way to go, but surely perhaps some measure of moderation might stem the tide?

maybe chazal were right when they said the only way to deal with this was to marry them off very young.


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7. limit country, relax about the pizza shops at home     8/8/07 - 9:21 PM
tb

My feeling has always been to limit them in the country where things are unwieldy and parents are not always there (unacceptable by the way for teenagers as i mentioned before to be there without parents) and to let the hangouts stand in the city so we know where they are. In some places, with which i'm sure Rabbi Horowitz is familiar, the Vaad will notprovide Kashrus approval to restaurants that allow teens under 18 in on Motzai Shabbos without an adult accompanying them. A friend and I (a Chareidi friend I might add who works in Chinuch) agreed that now we will not know where they are on a Saturday night. Now, we will make it even more necessary for them to find an empty private home to cavort in. At least when they "hang out" in public, there is some level of control. Facts on the ground...as you like to say, Rabbi Horowitz.


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8. Positive interventions and collaborate     8/9/07 - 12:35 AM
AK

We are great as the Rabbi said in banning, restricting, etc but what about engaging the youth , letting them be part of the solution, let them be partners. The positive intervention providing alternatives is great but still top-down , the kids need to be involved in decisions which essentially effect them , we need more ' working with ' , not doing to. Trying to impose limits and controls on teenagers is really a joke ,( lock the front door so your kid who is bigger and stronger than you can't get out ) we may be able to set limits ,through undertandings or be able to reach mutually satisfying agreements . setting limits is great , the question is how ? In previous posts I have called on young adult involvement with teenagers , not as supervisors but being part of the fun to negate the independent ' teen cultures'. We cannot control people , maybe at most in the short term , only through chinuch, making kids partners in our community , at the age of 13 he is a gadol , why treat them as childish people and encourage their own social networks.


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9. Twenty Yr. Old Point of View     8/9/07 - 2:38 AM
Anonymous

I am a twenty yr. old who happens to be in camp in the mountains for the summer. I consider myself a frum, middle of the road guy. I have car in camp, and i occasionally leave, although my camp does not condone it. I was out this past Sat. night, and i was bowling by Kiamesha lanes. I can honestly say i was embarassed to be a frum guy that night. Supposedly frum girls in mini skirts, guys wearing wife beaters, and both of them openly touching. Obviously even normal yeshiva guys have girlfriends, are not Shomer, and do the same things, but at least they hide it and dont do it out in the open, blatantly showing that they dont care about a Dioraysa. My friends and I were there just to have a good time, chill, after a long hard week at work in camp. But it was a bad atmosphere for guys just trying to hang with guys, and not do anything that were not supposed to be doing. However while I was there a limo pulled up and a Rabbi got out. He came over to my friends and told us how he rented out a pool hall just for guys. We didnt go as we were already in the middle of a game, but i just wanted to say my friends and I were all saying how amazing it is for one person to try and make a difference and how he WAS. Guys were leaving the girls and going with him. There really should be more people like him. People should be giving him money to do these things. He was telling us how he was limited in his ideas because of a lack of funds. I ony had one more point how i think that parents should stop being so naive. Just becasue your son wears a white shirt, or your daughter wears a long black skirt and goes to a BY does not mean they are not out their on a Sat. night hanging out. I put as much blame on the parents for being naive, just as much as i place blame on the teens for doing these things, and being so brazen about it. And to Rabbi Horowitz, i follow your articles and work closely, and commend you for trying to make a difference.


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10. Question for 20yo     8/9/07 - 6:06 AM
AK

Hi, I commend you for sharing your insights. As a parent ( I live in EY) IMHO even if I was aware of what is going on and not naive , there is very little a parent on his own can do , we can't lock kids up. 1 Why are these teenagers - boys / girls being acting out so blatantly ? How do they perceive their world ? 2 Can one still reach out to them , what would you do or recommend on a personal level 3 IMHO I believe that young people have to be part of the solution , is there a possibility of you and your friends working with this Rabbi ? Thanks once again for sharing


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11. definition     8/9/07 - 12:53 PM
M

Wife Beater - n. A white sleeveless tank-top that men wear.

(I had to look it up. Assuming I am not the only one who was unfamiliar with the word in a previous comment, I have posted it here as a public service :) )


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12. normal yeshiva guys     8/9/07 - 12:57 PM
M

anonymous - you wrote, "Obviously even normal yeshiva guys have girlfriends"

what do you mean by "even normal yeshiva guys"? since when do "normal yeshiva guys" do what you describe?

and "normal yeshiva guys" as opposed to what?


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13. Brooklyn Rav     8/9/07 - 1:03 PM
M

Rabbi Horowitz - since the "Brooklyn Rav" publicly did his good work, can we know his name?

Another thing - When I read your article, my initial reaction was that I was impressed, with you for writing something that generated a positive response and with the follow-up of the Brooklyn Rav. But then I read some comments in which the writers expressed their belief that the trouble you described simply went elsewhere.

I'd like to hear your comments about that. Do you think it's true? Is there a way of finding out? How about asking the kids if it's true?

Final remark - if it's true that girls who attend BY-type schools were dressed inappropriately and they, and boys who attend yeshivos, were acting inappropriately, would it be an idea to have some high school principals and/or teachers/rebbis show up and check out the scene? Not to rebuke them, just to see what's going on.

It would be an eye-opener for them ... those aidel maidels in their school uniforms, those yeshiva bachurim in their hats and jackets, out of uniform in the mountains ...


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14. Thank you     8/9/07 - 2:33 PM
Neil Harris - Chicago, IL - neilsharris@hotmail.com

R Horowitz, thank you for giving a postive report about the current situation Upstate. I'm so happy that positive steps are being taken in a way that respects those involved.


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15. Thank yous are great, what else can we do?     8/9/07 - 2:43 PM
tb

M, please understand, this has been going on for decades. DECADES! Sending the Rabbis to see won't change it. Preventative reaching out, outlets, Simchas Hachaim, the reconnecting of families rather than delegating to schools, restructuring Yeshivos--that is what is needed most and triage-wise, we need to get the mountains under control. No more unsupervised high school kids out there. At home in the city, a little levelheadednes. Not all the kids are in terrible trouble. See my comments about the difference between "acting out" and "letting loose." This relates to the 20-year old's comments that perplexed you so. I believe what he means when he refers to "normal" Yeshiva guys, he refers to those who let loose in the summer and occasionally, but usually tow the party line. This is a different population than those who are acting self-destructively. The two worlds usually collide and sometimes overlap. P.S. if you don't know what a wife-beater is, you can't help these kids. If you can't help them, recognize that those who are in the thick have the best judgment as to how to go about this. Also, to Rabbi Horowitz, every effort is to be commended, but this should also serve as a brainstorming forum for new ideas, no?


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16. 20 yr old response to Ak and others.     8/9/07 - 2:57 PM
Anonymous

Thanks for your commendation and response. I was sitting at my computer trying to figure out what to respond, and what advice to give. I am only 20, however, among my friends, considered to be the elder full of wisdom.:) I will not lie, I had a girlfriend in high school. It lasted for a while. I went to what is considered a good yeshiva. Middle of the road black hat, but not yeshivish at all. Just so you know where I am coming from, i thought you would want to know that. As a parent your right I am sure its extremely difficult to try and teach your kids what to do, without banning them from going anywhere. Meaning, you dont want your children hanging out on a sat. night but if you say to them that they cant leave generally this will cause them to want it more, and be more rebellious, just to spite you (the parents)Some of the teens that act so blatantly dont care, they think its cool and they are totally desentisized (not sure how to spell that) to anything jewish. It could be their parents leave them alone, or just dont care. Or it could be that their parents care to much, and are so on top of them these kids have lost patience, and are just acting out of spite. Or it could be that they are just teenagers, trying to fit in, in the world. What that Rabbi did was perfect. He didnt yell at them. He did not tell them they are doing things that will put them in hell (yes, people have said that to me and my friends on occassion) All he did was walk up to them with a smile, and tell them what he had to offer. Teens dont want someone that is telling them what they are doing is wrong. The odds are they know that, and dont care. Help them in other ways. This Rabbi did exaclty that. Push comes to shove at the end of the day, most guys and girls are looking for something to do and are bored. Thats a large part of the reason i would talk to girls. Give us something to do, and take our mind off other things. Most frum guys are bored. Hence the reason so many guys smoke. Its something to do. We are not Non-jews, who can hang otu with girls, go clubbing, drinking, games etc. Generally our high schools didnt have extra-carricular activities. WE ARE BORED. There are so many things that we cant do, it leaves us with little to do. I know i am going from topic to topic, and wandering and im sorry. I am just trying to convey my point. Also a wife beater (sorry for the slang) is a sleevless undershirt, as so well described. Generally frum guys dont walk around in just a wife beater, with a necklace, Yarmulka on their head, and a girl in their arms. To the person "M" who said "since when do "normal yeshiva guys" do what you describe? Whoever you are i am willing to bet you have teenagers. And i am also willing to bet their is a lot going on their lives that you dont know about. I know a lot of guys. A lot. I can tell you for a fact that there are guys coming from great families, guys wearing white shirts and learning three Sedarim a day, who talk to girls. Guys who you would never imagine. I can tell you that there is a lot more going on out there in the frum yeshiva guy/girl world than you can imagine. Look at the numbers of how many frum yeshiva guys, are marrying their girlfreinds these days. Maybe you dont know it but i do. Trust me. If you think your kid has a girlfriend or a boyfriend, and he is shomer, YOU ARE WRONG. I am not going to say its 100 percent. Obvioulsy i cant say that. But definelty, without adoubt in my mind, its a majority. A few months ago a friend of mine called me up. He asked me to if i knew anyone he could contact about a problem he was having. I asked him whats wrong.. He told me that a good friend of his, A frum guy from a well known respected high school, whose girlfreind was in a well know respected high school WAS PREGENANT. She was thinking about killing herself. She wanted to get an abortion. Both of their families are normal. No problems to speak of. Neither of the parents knew that their child even spoke to girls. As for the commemt someone wrote about high school principals checking out the scene. NO. Do not do that. Firstly because its unnecassary, as these principals are hopefully not so stupid, and distanced from their students that they dont know. And if they dont what in the world are they doing in that position. Second, it will just annoy the teens, and make them angry, which will make them want to be rebellious, which will cause a snowball effect. Parents have to talk to their kids, watch them, dont be so naive in thinking your kids are angels. And if your kid actually has the courage to talk to you about it, please dont yell or scream. Embrace it, talk to him, help him, encourage him to stop. Or at least curb it. Trust me when i say most kids want to tell their parents but are just afraid to.


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17. re your p.s. tb     8/9/07 - 3:20 PM
M

yet another charming remark ...keep 'em coming!

I'm sure a person as loving and understanding and sweet as yourself are the perfect person to work with kids. Our schools need more mechanchim and mechanchos like yourself!

thanks for your edifying comments


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18. Response to M     8/9/07 - 3:22 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey, NY

M wrote:

Rabbi Horowitz - since the "Brooklyn Rav" publicly did his good work, can we know his name?

Another thing - When I read your article, my initial reaction was that I was impressed, with you for writing something that generated a positive response and with the follow-up of the Brooklyn Rav. But then I read some comments in which the writers expressed their belief that the trouble you described simply went elsewhere. I'd like to hear your comments about that. Do you think it's true? Is there a way of finding out? How about asking the kids if it's true? --------------------------------- I spoke to the Rav and requested that he allow me to publish his name. he declined for several (valid) reasons. Obviously, I respected his wishes.

As for your second question, there is no doubt in my mind that some of the teens simply ‘went elsewhere’. But others chose the supervised locations. And that is a step forward.

I don’t think that any rational person thinks that we have solved the ‘problem’ at all.

I think we are at or near the ‘tipping point.’ And it is worse in Eretz Yisroel than it is in the Catskills. I’ve been writing and lecturing about this for over 10 years, begging people to listen.

Read my Mishpacha series. Especially this:

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=850&ThisGroup_ID=346&ID=Publisher;43;Mishpacha%20Magazine&Type=Article

Well, it’s here. I hope we have the fortitude and wisdom to adjust and respond before it’s too late.

Yakov


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19. Rabbi Horowitz writes emes with a bang     8/9/07 - 4:51 PM
Yardena - Eretz Yisrael

I was so heart-warmed to read about the rav who actually went out of his way to organize and pay for good options for the kids. Also, I agree with absolutely everything that Nechama and AK have said, especially about treating teens differently than modern Western culture presently does. AK has suggested several times to look up a book called Abolish Adolescence and alos Alfie Kohn's essays. I have and there's a lot of thought-provoking, sensible stuff in there, so I also recommend doing that.

A lot of people have written in with good analysis and good suggestions.

Rabbi Horowitz made an excellent caculation at the end that I wish all frum people would read. Banning the kids from pizza places or witholding kashrus certification or forcing the places to close early is merely a blindfold solution, unless one is simultaneously planning to open up a mo'adon for the kids. As Rabbi Horowitz pointed out, they just go to worse places and to do worse things.

I would also like to hear more from people like 20-year-old Anonymous (thanks so much for opening up here!), who are in his age group, or younger. I grew up secular, then joined with Modern Orthodox at the very end of my teens (am a charedi mother now), so I had a false sense that I understood what's going on with kids today, but I see from what everyone's writing that I don't, and I feel that we absolutely need to know the truth, even though it hurts.

Personally, as worried as I am about the boys, I worry more about the girls. The off-the-derech-FFB girls I've known don't know how to protect themselves like their secular counterparts and when they do the same things as secular/non-Jewish girls, they do it in a much riskier, no-hold-barred manner. When I was half secular-becoming-MO, I had a Beis Yaakov friend who dressed and behaved in a manner that I and other secular girls found kind of surprising--the non-Jewish girls at my public high school wouldn't have done that. It was embarrassing to go out to night-spots with her sometimes. And she was confused about our surprise because she really thought that was how secular people behaved and dressed. And just so you know, she was a good girl with a good head on her shoulders. But in spite of her smarts, she was still vulnerable. Secular/non-Jewish girls grow up getting advice about anything and everything from magazines and friends and old siblings, and even their parents, and TV, but FFB girls don't. Anonymous 20-year-old gave a very sharp example of this. The kids need to be taken care of long before they become self-destructive.

I would also like some more specific parenting tips for PRE-TEENS. I don't want my kids to hate themselves so much that they self-destruct in high school.

P.S. I'm not saying to ignore the boys, who can also really hurt themselves, but it's just that the girls can get hurt worse. It's not just the drugs and the parties and the physical stuff, it's the pregnancy, the STDs, the emotional damage, and here in EY, there's a lot of girls (even FFB, even charedi) who've ended up running off with a sweet-talking Arab and living truly horrible lives trapped in some Arab village.


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20. safety     8/9/07 - 7:02 PM
tb

What does exasperated mean to you, M? I get exasperated with you and with people like you. But read carefully what the 20 year old had to say above your hate-filled comment. Read it. He is saying the same thing as I am. These kids and young adults need to be heard and addressed on their terms. Good for you, 20-year old, for opening up and more so for being honest with yourself. That's where growth can occur. Rabbi Horowitz, the thing that impressed my husband and me so much years ago when we heard you speak was that a young teenage girl was sent to you for guidance. She was off the Derech and you asked her a simple question, "Are you safe?" She was astounded because you didn't ask if she was being Shomer Shabbos or other Mitzvos. You asked if she was physically safe in the actions she chose. That is what Yardena is referring to and that is the greatest challenge. Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz, for seeing that and seeing it so long ago.


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21. 20 yr old.     8/9/07 - 7:15 PM
Anonymous

To Rabbi H. I have read your articles on what you think about teens going to israel. I can honestly tell you i think (without trying to insult, or disparage you Rabbi H.) that no parent or adult knows what they are talkin about when it comes to going to yeshiva or Seminary in israel. Your not teens, you have not lived i our shoes. As much as an adult think they understand a teen, they dont. And yes you were all once kids, however you lived in very very different times. You can not begin to imagine what goes on there. I think that the people that should be writing articles on Israel, and going to yeshiva there are Rebbaim, preferably first yr. ones, who know the most that goes on there with their first yr. guys.


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22.     8/9/07 - 9:25 PM
yoni

tb, I'm also 22, but I really don't understand this kind of thing. I mean, I don't think that there is any doubt i'm an at risk kid, but this kind of thing I never did, don't know why someone would do. Drugs, how could you do such a thing, they're dangerous. Sleeping around is dangerous, you could get STDs Get a girl pregnant and be responsible (or get pregnant if you're so inclined) and then have the rest of you're life practicaly ruined.

So I never understood this kind of thing. Talking to girls I understand and light kinds of touching I understand, but even that can lead to problems and I've seen it happen.

I wish I could give enlightening comments on this but I can't. sorry tb.

but then on I never totaly understood other teens either.


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23. Rabbi Horowitz gets it     8/9/07 - 10:39 PM
daven4wisdom

We've got to reach out and show love for these kids, and this unfortunately is a problem that will not go away easily. Also, as parents we must be role models for our kids and work on this constantly and consistently. I am constantly amazed at how mothers in the frum community dress provocatively (but within the letter of the law). What kind of message does this send out to our daughters? It is a message of "look at me", "I want your attention", and isnt that what these kids want as well? Lets work on our own self worth a bit, be a bit more modest, and I think it will trickle down to the kids as well.


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24. Mixed but no "feelings"     8/10/07 - 2:45 AM
Zaidi - Israel - nphatti@yahoo.com

Boys are attracted to girls. Its the way hashem created them. By forced separation in all spheres of life the yeshiva boys become obsessed with girls as sex symbols. I suggest that boys and girls get encouraged to meet in supervised activities, that they get to know each other as menschen. That a boy can actually talk to a girl without the conversation leading to bed. I am not suggesting the Bnei Akiva going steady scenario, but a place where healthy exhange of ideas and communal activities can take place. The time, venues and activities must be monitored, however, not to the extent of stifling the occasion. This approach may even solve the divorce problem as in a communal activity personality traits can be judged prior to a shidduch in a sterile, artificial hotel lobby. Would it be so way out for a group of 10 yeshiva boys to spend an evening with 10 BY girls playing scrabble, ping-pong or chess in a BY hall with a Rebbi and his wife hosting the event?


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25. Boredom,     8/10/07 - 2:55 AM
Ak


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26. Boredom     8/10/07 - 3:11 AM
AK

Hi, Thanks so much 20yo. Talking to the opposite sex is can be quiet meaningful in that the conversations take a higher level of connecting ,bonding and caring which other relationships like parent-child , boy-boy etc cannot. IMHO supervised mixing gives these connections some legitamacy and and a catalyst to going steady. I think 20yo is on target with boredom and boredom does not too much spare time , you can be busy , no spare time but your mind is bored, not stimulated, relationships and life does not excite you. When you go out , go to a party, disco, pizza , you feel alive, and when you are bored , you are a cheftza m you need something that will make you feel being alive. 20yo and others how can we help kids with boredom , more important ' mental boredom'?


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27. Parent of 20 year olds     8/10/07 - 10:22 AM
Anonymous

Not all of us are stupid and many of us can remember bad things we did when we were younger. I regret some of the pritzadicke things I did then. I tried to keep my kids away from it. With three teenage boys I was aware that two threw their jeans out the window on Friday night then went outside with Shabbos clothes and changed in the garage. They were not going to a tish. I went to Rabbi Horowitz' lectures 8 years ago, and I spoke with Gedolim and asked advice. BTW I have an excellent marriage and get to learn about three hours a day and I do not club with my wife or whatever, I know what "wife beaters" are and we called them sleeveless undershirts in my house. I was told to be patience, but it was really hard as they went all the way down to the bottom and did all those things we wish they would not. I did send them to EY to Ner Yaacov and that did nothing for my pride and when they walked around my town with their tushies hanging out of their jeans I was quite bitter, but as long as they wanted to go back to E'Y I kept sending them. Yes it cost scores of thousands of dollars and with shrinks to boot. And yes I knew that what was going in EY, it is not that much different than here. But in EY there are Rebbes who do not give up and are trained to reach these guys. I could not. BUT today they are in the very best yeshivos, they are very frum, they regret their past and they too spoke to Gedolim in Israel about their misdeeds and they were pointed to a certain Nodeh B'Yehudah in Orach Chaim. I have asked them to read and comment on these blogs but they have not done so I am still a little naive as to what can be done to prevent that downward spiral, but you would be amazed at what real diamonds many of these kids can be as they move from teenagers to young adults. My two worse ones told me it just took time for Torah to sink in and they also said those who came back to America too soon could not stand the influence of this country. For example 80% of Ner Yaacov boys are not SS, but of those who make one whole year in EY they all are, of those who make two years begin to really like gemarra and Judaism and those who stay for three years could see themselves as Rebbes for wayward youth. It is weird seeing your son who rejected learning five years ago sitting in the summer in Bais Medrash teaching a young struggling kid to how to learn mishnios. I think they need four years in EY if they have a rough time here. So as a word of Chizuck, hang in their for a rough ride with a likely good ending.


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28. Parent of 20 year old     8/10/07 - 12:36 PM
anonymous

I admire that you stood by your children through their downward spiral and kept getting them the help that they needed and showed them your love. And for doing what was best for your kids and not caring what other people would think. I hope that your children read this post and realize what wonderful parents you are. There are wonderful rebbeim and seminary teachers in Israel who know how to reach out and touch the souls of these children and bring them an appreciation of Yiddishkeit and explain reasons and the beauty behind the mitzvot. It is a shame that there are so few of them here in America. There are kids who are not at risk, but who are questioning Yiddishkeit and who are not getting answers. If they ask questions or want answers they are looked down upon as bad apples. What they are yearning for is somebody to touch their souls in a way that connects to a teenager. Explain to them at their level. I just wish there were teachers in America that could light up the souls of the children before they start spiraling.


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29. An Offer to: "20-Year-old"     8/10/07 - 12:46 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey/NY

Dear 20-year-old:

How would you like to write an article or two from your perspective?

I will gladly edit it and do my very best to get it published.

I would suggest it be constructive and geared to parents -- your thoughts on how they should be responding to the challenges of raising their kids, especially those who are a bit 'out of the box'

Post your email address and i'll be glad to contact you. Or you can drop an email to comments@rabbihorowitz.com

Deal???

Yakov Horowitz


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30. 20 yr old.     8/10/07 - 1:26 PM
Anonymous

I wanted to respond to the comments of the parents of twenty yr. old. Firstdly i did not mean that every parent is naive and has no idea whats going on at all. I would say that most have no idea though, on specific levels. MOST. Not all. And i dont mean to be callous, but in some cases the children are very open and brash about it, as opposed to some whom are pretending to be someone their not. I am not talking about guys and girls that are open, I am talking about people that pretend, that go to mainstream yeshivos, that wear white shirts, but are really living a lie. As for Ner Yacov, i know it well, two close friends of mine went there, and i am sure that they were no different than your kids. Those guys turned out amazing, and they said the same things as your sons did. That it just took them longer to find it. The yeshiva is incredible. The amount of guys that they help is amazing. They say the Rebbaim there are second to none. I can only imagine the gratitude you have for them. Anyone taht labels the Yeshiva as something other than that has no idea what they are talking about. I agree with the comments made by Zaidi. Guys and girls like talking to each other in the frum, middle of the road world, becasue we say everyone in the world has it and we want it. Also were bored. A guy/girl relationship is obviously much different than two guys being best friends. This much is obvious. It would be great if we could just hang out in a Kosher setting with girls and guys together, however i dont think it would ever work. The reason is because two people there could like each other, and whats than to stop them from getting each others numbers and talking. And we know that not every time after that it would be supervised. Its an incredible dillema, one i dont kmow that has a solution. With cellphones, and IM'ing i dont know how a parent could control their children from doing this. Maybe if a parent sees that their child is doing something like this, instead of yelling, screaming, and taking things away, he could embrace it talk to the child and explain where he is coming from and hopefully the child will understand. As for boredom, another problem. There is very little for a frum teen to do. I dont know. People in the communities like monsey, flatbush, and all over the new york area are so quck to judge, that its a big prolem. They see guys outside talking somewhere on a sat. night, and they yell at them for hanging out. What else should they be doing. Sitting and learning. Lets be honest, even if your a serious learner, you have to have a break. And in the frum world, its bad to go to movies, bad to go out with yoru friends on a saturday night, no concerts, they close the resturants so we cant go, what else are you leaving us to do. Drugs are much more rampant and easy to come by than you could ever think. Also to the writer M. i dont know if i responded to this yet, but i was just rereading your comments, and was so annoyed by them i decided to write back. You said "since when do normal yeshiva guys have girlfriend" WAKE UP. are you kidding me. If you went around to yeshivas in Israel or high schools in America (again i only really know from what i consider mainstream middle of the road) and asked how many of the guys or girls in their respecitve schools spoke to guys/girls at one point or another, i am confident the number would be quite high. And ask those guys and girls who said that they spoke to guys/girls how many were not shomer, again the number would be high. Any guy that has been in a long relationship probably has not been shomer. I am not saying that they are having sex, but there is definelty touching going on. And to the comments of parents setting a bad example for their daughters by dressing immodestly, wow you coudl not be more right. Why should your daughter dress well if you dont. Why should your son not smoke if his father does. Why should guys not hang out if their fathers whom are fourty five are haning out like little kids. And Rabbi Horowitz to your comment i will think about it, however i would like to email you without anyone else being able to read my comments, is that possible??


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31. To "20-year-old"     8/10/07 - 1:29 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey/NY

My private email is yhdarchei@aol.com.

I am the only one who reads those emails.

Yakov


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32. to 20 year old     8/10/07 - 3:12 PM
M

I don't understand what you're annoyed about. I asked you to explain and you didn't!

You say you are talking about "middle of the road black hat, but not yeshivish at all" yeshivos.

What about "yeshivishe yeshivos"? Do you have any knowledge about what goes in there?

Could you please differentiate between the types of black hat yeshivos (with some examples of each) and tell us what you think is typical of each as far as girls, shemiras Shabbos, seriousness about learning, and life in general? I'd appreciate it.


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33. 20 yr old.     8/10/07 - 3:28 PM
Anonymous

To M, i dont know yehivish yeshivos. I know what i consider the middle of the road. If were talking in israel i would say Mercaz, Bais, Kol Torah, Medrash, ToMo, Rabbi Center, maybe a few others like it. I consider O.J. T.J. Shalavim Mevaseret, etc. to be a little more modern. The Mir really does not have a category as to the fact that ther are guys from every different type of walks of life. I Know those that i listed above, again the ones i consider more middle of the road. In american high schools there are just to many and guys are ususally not all the same in one high school class. Its much more complicated to judge on that than on a yeshiva in israel. In israel in every one of the yeshivas i listed above there are guys that talk to girls. every one. no question. But just as there are guys talking to girls in every one everyone of thoese yeshivas has great guys learning. What goes on, i cant really write. Its to difficult. I am sure you know about the smoking, drinking, hanging out, boyfriends and girlfreind, apartments, beaches bars, drugs etc. We go there thousands of miles away from our parents and people that know us. Everything we ever wanted is available to us. For some guys whom have had freedom their entire lives, its fine, and they dont get overwhelmed. There are others whom have tried talking to girls or other things before they went to israel but parents have been to on toop of them, or yeshivos, and those are the guys that have the real problem.


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34. black hat - yeshivish     8/10/07 - 3:53 PM
Anonymous

Can we get some examples of each?

Does this sound right:

yeshivish in New York: the Mir, Torah Temimah, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva of Brooklyn, Beis Ha'Talmud, Staten Island (R' Feinstein), Mekor Chaim (R' Paler)

black hat not yeshivish in New York: Torah Vodaas, Chofetz Chaim (Flatbush), Long Beach, Darchei Torah, Shaar Ha'Torah (Queens)

yeshivish out-of-town: Passaic (R' Stern),Edison, Telz Cleveland and Chicago, Scranton, Lakewood, Yeshiva Gedola Montreal

black hat not yeshivish out-of-town: Ner Israel (Baltimore), South Bend, Florida (R' Zweig)

Eretz Yisrael:

yeshivish: Mir, Brisk

not yeshivish:


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35. okay     8/10/07 - 4:06 PM
M

thanks 20 yr. old - as I've pointed our previously on this blog, we've got to know who we're talking about! Many things that are written about in articles on this blog, do not apply to all Orthodox crowds (M.O. or Bobov etc.) and at first, it didn't register that you were talking about a non-yeshivish crowd, sorry.

You are talking about a specific type of yeshiva and bachur within the black hat community and I think it's important to make this clear if you ever get around to writing up an article for R' Horowitz or if he writes more on the subject. I wonder about the typical Mishpacha reader for example, who reads R' Horowitz's articles - do they consider themselves yeshivish or not. Certainly those who read the Jewish Observer, where his articles have been published, are mostly yeshivish, so would seem to me that an article written by you wouldn't be a good match for the J.O.

Would you mind telling me (us) who runs the yeshivos you listed and the yeshivos full names (not the shorthand)? I'm not familiar with the yeshivos in Israel except for the really famous ones. Again, I'd appreciate it.


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36. its time to stop classifying     8/10/07 - 4:50 PM
a parent

M seems to be so concerned with the categories/classifications of which part of the yeshivish world is affected by this problem. Time to wake up and smell the coffee- its everywhere. You cant keep one "type" out of it and think "ok, well at least it doesnt affect MY kids or My world...and it wont becz I dont let my kids do (fill in the blank- tv, internet, boys, girls, music, questions about religion, etc). It unfortunately happens in the "best" of families, not only in the "not as yeshivish ones." Its a test of our generation, and by the way, thinking its THEIR problem, and not yours, or ours is really not the Yiddishe way, is it?


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37.     8/10/07 - 5:05 PM
yoni

the boys and girls issue has been the test if every generation since the beggining. Coursory looking around proves this. However, the rampant going off the derech hasn't, so I want to know what is the difference between the way we do things now and how we did things then? why did it change?

if you think that these are a result of outside issues I assure you that you are fooling yourself and playing ostritch.


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38. response to yoni     8/10/07 - 5:28 PM
a parent

of course it has always been natural for each gender to be interested in the other (we hope- I mean that is the way it should be...but we dont want to start that other topic). but yes, there is more off the derech going on now, I believe the main reason is that there is not enough love/outreach/feeling or whatever you want to call it to the FFB community, and THen when they DO look elsewhere to fill that void of unanswered questions, the outside influences will work their way in.

One who completely ignores the outside influences, is being the ostrich.


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39.     8/10/07 - 6:08 PM
yoni

the outside culture hasn't really appriciably changed in hundreds of years, contrary to what people say, especialy the youth culture.

so no, the outside influences are basicaly the same, always have been. True the particulars are different, but the generalities are identical: "there is nothing new under the sun".

actualy things are way better now than they used to be. We nolonger have the church editing our books, forcing us to listen to mass, conscripting our sons, stealing our daughters from their homes, and throwing our husbands to the wolves for personal amusement.

actualy the statistics we have show that things are tremendously better now than they were a hundred years ago. One would figure that we would be keeping all of our children, but we are not. Something changed in our communities and in our attitudes and I would like to know what.


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40. response to a parent     8/10/07 - 6:23 PM
M

It makes parents feel so much more better to think that this is a problem that affects everybody like an Act of G-d of some kind, like an epidemic that strikes down the pious as well as the rebellious. Time to wake up and realize that if we have a mitzva to be mechanech our children, then with the proper efforts, tefilla, and siyata dishmaya, we will succeed. Otherwise, hey, why bother if it's potluck? Chuck those chinuch books and tapes and quit reading these articles!

Time to see what those groups that have the least troubles are doing right. Instead of chalking it up to mazal, it would be far more sensible to learn from others. Making believe it's random is not the yiddishe way, is it?

True, no group is immune. Nobody claimed it was. But depending on which problem plaguing the frum world we're talking about, it affects some groups far more than others. Example: not being accepted in any mesivta or girls' school is not a problem experienced in chassidic communities. Example: Although yeshivish and chassidish communities have their drop-outs and those who are observing the minimum, it's far less than in those frum communities and homes that are not yeshivish or chassidish.

A test of our generation? - well, maybe. What exactly is the test?

Maybe the test is whether parents are going to rise to the challenge of actually parenting their kids instead of thinking that others will do it for them.

This is the first generation of kids that is being raised with a fraction of their mother's input, as compared to even one generation ago. And then people whine about tests. Gimme a break.

Don't send the infants and toddlers to babysitters, the pre-school kids to school from morning till late afternoon, kids under 10 to sleepaway camp for 4-8 weeks, park them in front of VCR and computer babysitters, buy them or allow them to buy cell phones and iPods, spend next to no time shmoozing with them and laughing together, and then complain that it's a problem affecting us all and the test of the generation.


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41. moving to the right     8/10/07 - 6:54 PM
M

And in addition to focusing on the kids getting into trouble, how about looking at the phenomenon of kids becoming frumer than their parents?

Let's look at kids from M.O. homes or not particularly yeshivish homes, who are moving to the right which I'll describe as including one or more of the following:

covering their hair when their mother did not, marrying someone who covers her hair when his mother did not, ditto for pants and short sleeves

no TV and movies when they were raised with TV and movies

opting to postpone secular studies for more years of learning

being kovei'a ittim/attending a shiur, several times a week if not daily, having a chavrusa

wanting to marry someone who is kovei'a itim/attends a shiur

davening with a minyan 3 times a day when the father did not

sending their children to yeshivishe schools and camps when they were not sent to yeshivish schools and camps or sending their children to non co-ed schools when they were sent to co-ed schools

**** What motivates these kids to become frumer than their parents? What kind of relationship do they have with their parents when they become frumer - do their parents also, then move to the right?

Rabbi Horowitz - how about an article?


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42. Response to Yoni - What has changed today?     8/12/07 - 9:19 AM
MS RBS

To Yoni, In my humble opinion what has changed today is that there is no more "Busha". Everything goes today and all sensitivity to immorality and kedusha are being eradicated by huge billboards of "undressed" people (to put it nicely). Every ad, every newspaper wherever you look it is screeming at you. When I grew up (I am 39) nothing was allowed. It was all illegal in the country that I come from. With the movie age and TV and now with the cursed Internet and free access to the worst "Tuma' with a few clicks of the mouse, the Yetzer Hora is too strong to control. Cars and cellphones make the arrangements a joke compared to when I grew up. In addition, and perhaps this is the most critical contributing factor: Yiddishkeit is all about what you wear (or don't wear)and how many mesechtos you finished in 4th grade. There is no "Pnim"!! People walk around with long black garbs but their connection to hashem is Zero minus. This is obviously part of Hashems's bigger plan but it is Yichiddim like Rabbi Horowitz and the Rabbi who was mentioned trying to field the boys and girls to separate pool games AS WELL AS MORE PATIENCE ans LOVE!!!!! from PARENTS WHEN THEY SEE THEIR KIDS SLIPPING (SEE FATHER OF 20 YEAR OLDS ABOVE - KOL HAKAVOD!!)who will help make the change in our generation and bring thousands of these lost souls back. May be be zoche to see the coming of Moshiach bekarov Beyomainu!


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43.     8/12/07 - 9:44 AM
Anonymous

a also went to what is called mid of the road yeshiva in isreal israel , Bais, Kol Torah, Medrash, ToMo, and i completly disagree i would say 20 % talk to girls or less iun the yshiva i was in and 75% of the guys come out much much better then they started


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44. Not so much credit     8/12/07 - 2:53 PM
Parent of 20 year olds

I was not a "lovey dovey" kind of father. I was really angry, but I am a professional. So, I sought professional advice and I took it. It was very much against my nature. I do risk analysis for certain industries. I saw after a few years my way was not working and I had few options. There is no point to spit in the wind, no point to just keep fighting a losing battle. We are smarter than our kids, just do not be too stubborn. We can change us and thereby change and save them. My wife and I were on very different pages and professionals helped us get on the same page. Even when my son used his money to buy illegal items I called Rav Dovid Kohn and he told me his money is his money, I do not have to let it in the house, but I cannot treat a 14 year old like a 7 year old. Lastly, remember there are three partners in this child; so first, the two down here have to get on the same page and that page need be a page of Torah advice and tefillos. My wife cried many bitter tears Friday nights standing before the Shabbos licth. Keep up those tefillos. I would say that long Rosh Chodesh Sivan prayer once of twice a day for about three years.


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45. with a tear in my heart     8/12/07 - 5:25 PM
Nechama


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46. is it our fault?     8/12/07 - 5:27 PM
Nechama

I wonder whether we married people are at fault for not presenting marriage as a wonderful pleasure and happy bond for the youth to look forward to....


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47.     8/13/07 - 1:19 PM
Binyamin

What kind of help to teenagers get in dealing with the opposite sex?

I never got any, excpet to be told to stay away. I listened, so I never got into trouble, but if I would have been more outgoing and less satisfied in Yeshiva I would have found a girlfreind, and I would have had no idea how to hadle that correctly.

When my brother started hanging out with girls he got some additional advice - Don't sleep over. It is impossible to deal with girls in an acceptable manner if all you know is either never talk to them, or at least don't sleep with them. I asked some people I know who are involved with teenagers where I can find someone who will tell him how to behave with girls, without telling him that it is unacceptable to ever speak to them. I could not find anyone.

When teenagers have to figure out everything on their own, there is no chance they can get it right. Their parents and teachers should be teaching them how to eal with this aspect of life, instead of telling them to pretend it does not exist.


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48. marriage     8/13/07 - 1:25 PM
Anonymous

Why isn't it acceptable to tell boys - have nothing to do with girls until you are ready to get married? (Actually, yeshiva boys know this already)

That's clear. Is halachically correct. Prevents all sorts of trouble.

Just say no. Don't get involved.


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49.     8/13/07 - 1:30 PM
yoni

and binyamin's comment I think gets in to one thing that I really have a problem with in modern frum life (and yes, it is modern those who pretend they are doing things the way they were done in europe are deluding themselves). We do not know how to address problems after the fact. With all of this emphasis in avoiding problems, most people don't seem to grasp how to manage one once it is occuring, there is not safety net at all. It is either do everything perfectly, or get shoved out nomatter what happens with you.

I don't think I've ever heard people listen to someone come to them with a problem and then turn around and tell them that they should better do this than nothing at all. most of what I hear consists of blaming the kids for what they did and telling them the consequences are theirown fault.

Are we surprised that these children are running for the door as fast as they can since they know they could never be perfect?

Binyamin, I have some ideas if you'd like to contact me, just say so.


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50.     8/13/07 - 1:33 PM
yoni

because anon, we no longer marry our children off at 18!

you can't pick and chose with halacha and expect the system to remain whole! when they threw out the push for early marriage they damaged a segnificant part of halacha together with it which were predicated on that halacha's existance.


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51. a little story with a happy ending     8/13/07 - 1:56 PM
tb

My husband and I once had the following experience:

A teenage girl with whom we were close and who we knew to be struggling was looking to be dropped off on a Motzai Shabbos somewhere to meet with friends. Unlucky her, we said sure, but we used that opportunity to ask her about who she would be spending time with and I calmly told her about not letting people take advantage of her because as I explained, the main thing was safety and personal self-respect tonight and other nights. Then after a long talk--longer than she wanted--we asked if we could see one of her guy friends at the pizza store where he worked. We promised not to talk to him, but our intention was to a) put a face to the information and b) let him see her with people who cared about her. Also, she got out of this that she could share with us what was going on in her life so we could navigate it together. And mainly, we asked that because we did not live in her city, that she call us or another adult to let them know where she was when she went out. We could not control everything and she--for various reasons--was not living with her parents. In the end, a few years later, she married someone very nice, very much like herself and is an active part of the frum community. Lots of people were involved in her success, but very few were able to talk to her about what she was doing and address her safety issues. We need to do that with the struggling teens we know.


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52. 18     8/13/07 - 2:37 PM
Anonymous

Who's "they" who "threw away the push for early marriage"?

Heard yesterday of the engagement party of an 18 year old girl. Very frum. Simply wanted to get married.

Her brother, got married at 19. Very unusual.

Not Chassidish.

This family is yeshivish.

Nobody's stopping anyone from getting married young.

We got a shidduch crisis? epidemic of older singles? Marriage at 18 sounds good!


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53. JUST TALK!!!     8/14/07 - 11:47 AM
Anonymous

Instead of rabbi horowitz patting himself on the back for all the hunreds of emails and downloads of his article, schul clippings... "Two popular frum bloggers wrote essays about the issue last Wednesday and more than 1,100 people reviewed the article on my website alone – not counting those who forwarded it to their email lists"....its all talk.its time that we start DOING something about it. If rabbi H knew of the impending danger that happens on motzei shabbos why wasnt any prevention action done on his part.alternative venues should have been set up before the summer months.its very easy to sit by your computer and write articles to make awarness AND SAY SEE I TOLD YOU SO .but you have to get your hands dirty too why wasn't rabbi Horowitz on the scene knowing in advance what was going to happen? its been about 10 years since the JO issue on kids at risk and it sems that we are far worse off now.perhaps its time for a change in dealing with this issue new challenges have arose that require a new way and a new leadership. monticello is not a reaction to woodbourne the ban on woodbourne did wonders ,its a reaction to the inaction of ppl who just talk and speak and write but dont do a thing about it.they Just use it as a stepping stone to advance their career. the ones who are DOING are the unsung heroes who are on the scene 24/7 getting their hands dirty and working with the teens rabbi's mitnick, wallerstein,abadi,blobstein and many more.


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54. cheshbon     8/14/07 - 12:35 PM
M

Although the previous comment is harsh, I'd like to focus on a point that was raised that seems valid to me, and that is the value of "awareness."

It is accepted by many that simply raising awareness is a good thing, but is it really? I'm not convinced. In fact, in some instances, I think raising awareness is detrimental. Some things are better not spoken about. I know this is not p.c. but too bad. I haven't noticed that the current psychological beliefs have done anything to strengthen our families and emotional and mental well-being. On the contrary. So if psychology maintains that openness and communication are always desirable, let them prove it.

As the previous comment notes - have things improved since J.O.'s Kids on the Fringe sold-out issue of 1999?

It's Elul, time for making cheshbonos. I'd like to see an article on just what has happened since 1999, the good and the bad, the yeshivos, organizations and people who have made a difference*, and what has really been accomplished, as well as how things have gotten worse. Seems to me that if being "normal" means having a girlfriend in our black hat yeshivos, that something is greatly amiss.

* names of organizations don't tell us anything; that an organization provides "support", "referrals" blah blah, doesn't tell us anything about their success in reducing the number of kids going astray


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55. Support R"H efforts     8/14/07 - 1:34 PM
Yehoshua

Anonymous 8/14/07 - 11:47 AM

Your comments are very harsh and point an unwarranted finger at R. Horowitz. He IS doing something. The problem is one person can only do so much; he can not be everywhere and can not even necessarily convince people to spend time and money to solve problems before they happen. But through publicizing the bad things that DO sometimes happen and then mobilizing resources to address it, that is something he can do.

Addressing problems in a proactive manner requires leadership. We need more of that too.


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56. Doing something about it     8/14/07 - 3:24 PM
Yardena - EY

When Rabbi Horowitz writes articles which describe problems AND offer insights and solutions, that IS called doing something about it. When he encourages us to look at kids who are acting out with understanding rather than condemnation, to reach out to dissatisfied Jews rather than to push them away, that is doing something. I've personally been very positively influenced through Rabbi Horowitz's writings (and Faranak Margolese for that matter)and I've been reaching out more, including to adults, who also go off the derech, but are much more private about it because they have more to lose.)Rabbi Horowitz also meets with the kids and helps them out.

And before we critize anyone else's alleged lack of action, is anyone else here proactive on the level that "tb" apparently is? I know that I'm not--unfortunately.

Has anyone done anything since the JO article? In Beitar and Ramat Beit Shemesh, you have people interacting with the kids who hang out, sometimes activities are organized for the kids, and Beitar had a mo'adon for them. (Maybe they still do--I haven't heard.) There's that place in downtown Jerusalem, also.

Yoni (who I hadn't realized was also not far from 20) and "20-year-old", thanks for expounding more on your spin on things.

And for what it's worth, I'm also pro-early marriage, but I do think that early parenthood can be a problem for most couples, though not all.


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57. Oh, and I forgot to say...     8/14/07 - 3:34 PM
Yardena

Because all these organizations have started up so slowly and are so shaky because of lack of funding and community support, I'm not sure whether 10 years is enough time to determine their effectiveness. They certainly need to be a lot more dynamic in order to be truly effective, but that's not their fault, that's our fault, the fault of the community, for not supporting them more. However, I know for a fact that these organizations have kept kids from totally flying off and from being totally self-destructive. It's definately a good start.


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58. Blah, blah     8/14/07 - 3:38 PM
Anonymous

You're out there with a lot of opinions about the shortcomings of parents/mechanchim. From our personal interacton with you, it's obvious that it's just that; talk, bash, opinionate. When it actually comes to doing something constructive to help kids in need, the first thing you consider is your image and your personal gain. You've done a lot more harm than good in spreading the panic among our oilam.


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59. Suggestion     8/15/07 - 10:30 PM
Anonymous

Can each affected community create an ongoing forum involving parents, mechanchim, teens/20's and experts to explore the issues together and create solutions?


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60.     8/15/07 - 11:10 PM
Inspire before they expire

Such great emphasis is placed on kiruv today. What about our own? What about safegaurding what we have? Lately, there has been a program called "Inspire" circulating through our communities. Kol hacovod to them. However, I think it's time to start running a program called "Inspire before they expire". Charity starts at home.


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61. Regarding categories     8/15/07 - 11:20 PM
Anonymous

I think the person who wrote about the different categories of kids was on the mark, and this issue is blurred under the heading of "at risk". There are also very bright, academically advanced kids who leave yeshiva for whatever reason and are still lumped under this heading and often steered to kiruv yeshivas where the prevalent problems are substance abuse, learning issues, etc.. You can imagine the result. The reality is that while there are common factors, it is a mistake to try to sweep everyone who stops being shomer mitzvos into one category and assign them similar characteristics. And the solutions must be as varied as the reasons for leaving yiddishkeit.


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62. heimishe guys     8/16/07 - 1:02 AM
shtarkebachur - shtarkebachur@aol.com

I am 19. I just spent one week in a camp, with the staff members who ranged in age from 17-20. They are from heimishe families, went to really frum chassidish or litvish or in-between yeshivas, and still do. I consider myself as having been quite naive about what goes on with these guys, and i am the type to bury my head in a gemara when people discuss girls or any thing related. But sleeping in a room with these guys was a real eye-opener, they watched dvd’s night and day (some of them really dirty), listened to woman singers, spoke about going to movies and some of them about their girlfriends, and i was not shocked. I was only surprised that they were discussing these things so openly, because i thought people were so ashamed of doing these things that they never told anyone, though i knew that kids do these things. Forget about davening on time, though i was impressed that all of them davened every day even if it was only shacharis at 1:00 pm. I just wanted to say that kids in very heimish, very frum families are into these things and hide it pretty well from anyone out of the group, because i was with these guys for years and had no idea of any thing until now. I really think that boredom is a major problem here, i know i get sick with boredom if i am not learning nonstop which happens often, but i try to deal with this boredom in kosher ways (though my hobby of playing guitar would not be considered good for a shidduch. My mother tried to stop me from taking it up as a hobby. I am really happy i did not listen to her and give in to her angry threats that people will think i am a bum and nobody will want to marry me. I knew that i could not survive the way i was going because i am very strong on frumkeit and would never talk to a girl at length, or hang out, or go to a movie. So now i am pretty good at guitar so i can spend a long time on it.) But there is nothing to do!!!! I never really realized this until i read this article. I just assumed that yiddishkeit expects me to enjoy learning so much that i should not want anything else but to sit and learn all day. It must be so because what are the other choices?? And even if i play music, the music isn't kosher even if it's shwekey, i mean it is too rocky. But i allow myself to do that so i can have something relatively kosher to do. It feels so good to vent about this after thinking for so long that i am missing something essential to yiddishkeit by getting bored of learning. But i am bored!!!!! I just force myself to learn because otherwise it's bittul torah. Forcing doesn't really work though because i end up spacing out and feeling guilty for it. I know that i need to work on my self-esteem and nobody can do that for me so i am doing it already and i am starting to feel better about myself even though i cannot live up to the standards it seems are expected of me. But I am writing to parents of kids, please make sure your kids are not getting the message that they are wrong for being bored because hw many kids are not?? So many of the kids who don't act out in assur'dig ways are developing psychological issues from having to force themselves to do things that hurt them and feeling shame for not feeling happy about learning, and they try to convince themselves that they are happy and end up feeling deep down that yiddishkeit expects them to feel happy being unhappy. That is a sure recipe for neurosis if i ever saw one.


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63. Kol HaKavod     8/16/07 - 10:22 AM
Ben Greenberg - Brooklyn, NY - rbfromnyc@gmail.com

Rabbi Horowitz, I could not agree more with your thoughts in both the original article and this follow-up. I am truly impressed that concrete steps have begun to occur addressing this horrible phenomenon within our midst. Kol Tuv, Ben Greenberg @ www.bengreenberg.org


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64. boredom?!     8/16/07 - 7:10 PM
Anonymous

This is an eye-opener for me. Kids are bored.... I think this topic should be addressed starting with mothers of infants.

Some foolish mothers instill the idea of boredom in their babies when they talk about 3 month olds as being bored, when they directly say to their toddlers - 'Are you bored?' drilling into their children in their formative years.

As someone commented earlier, boredom is not Yiddish.

When I grew up, I'm sure that here and there I asked my parents, "What should I do" but overall, this was not the refrain. We read A LOT (are today's kids not reading anymore?), we rode our bikes, rollerskated, played games.

Once in high school, we biked occasionally, socialized. But to get into trouble because of the excuse of boredom?! Teenagers?! As I say, this is an eye opener.


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65. reaching out     8/16/07 - 7:20 PM
Anonymous

Maybe we can take a lesson from Lubavitcher kids who "go on mivtzaim" i.e. take tefillin and go out and offer to be mezake a Jew in doing a mitzva. Ditto for neiros Shabbos.

Somehow, despite all the articles about the silent holocaust that is destroying more Jewish souls than Hitler, yemach shemo, kids are bored and not feeling the urgency of reaching out to unaffilated Jews.

Same could be said about visiting shut-ins, bikur cholim in hospitals and nursing homes.

Guitar playing and other hobbies may have a place but how about mitzvos? kiruv? How about organized opportunities for kids to be able to do this? Many, if not most, would not take the initiative if it wasn't organized.

How about a Partners in Torah project that matches teens with teens?

Ohr Nava in Flatbush provides a wide array of activities for girls 18 and up, shiurim, crafts, challa baking, exercise etc. How about more such organizations (costs $$$$, I know)?

Rather than provide entertainment (not Yiddish), how about constructive outlets that benefit klal yisrael?


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66. NOT YIDDISH??     8/16/07 - 8:19 PM
shtarkebachur - shtarkebachur@aol.com

Well THAT is new to me, because as far as i know there is nothing wrong with entertainment as long as it does not violate halacha. the term NOT YIDDISH is pretty ambiguous sounding. it sounds like an objective criteria which each group, depending on their minhag, defines for themselves. to some people, walking from one room to the next without a hat is NOT YIDDISH. so please do tell me what kind of ENTERTAINMENT would be considered not yiddish, barring activities which are against halacha, of course. To me it seems that peope are reluctant to get any kind of entertainment going for frum kids because people tend to be critical of anyone who does not define NOT YIDDISH as strictly as they do. Moreover, in the situation we have today it is simply not practical to get rid of any entertainment which can be considered not yiddish. for even though there is a strong argument that some activities are not befitting a ben/bas melech, (because they are undignified or because they bring to mind goyishe people's activities, like playing pool)... in spite of this, my humble opinion is that when kids need such an outlet it is our duty to give it to them, to prevent them from doing things which are really not yiddish, like hanging out with girls. having fun is a grey area, which cannot be strictly defined as not yiddish, and THE YIDDISHE THING TO DO NOW IS TO GIVE KIDS WAYS TO HAVE FUN SO THEY DON'T GET INVOLVED IN BAD THINGS. even if the way kids like to have fun makes us feel uncomfortable, for it is true that some of our parents (and some of us) would frown on such behaviors and call them goyish, it is my belief that parents need to get past this discomfort. HOW? By realizing that it is not necessarily the best thing for our children's yiddishkeit to make them feel bad for engaging in fun activities. If that is what they think they need to stay out of bad stuff, then let them have it.


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67. entertainment     8/16/07 - 10:40 PM
M

If we've reached the point that we need to resort to entertaining our teenagers (possibly in ways that we find objectionable) in order to prevent them from socializing with girls/boys and getting into trouble, then I think we need to get back to the drawing board. Something is majorly wrong with our chinuch system if this is the solution!

Children, under 12 and 13, have Pirchei and Bnos, which is/was not viewed as entertainment per se, but as wonderful ways for Jewish boys and girls to spend time on Shabbos afternoon. The program includes a Jewish inspirational story, games (preferably with a Jewish theme), maybe Parsha riddles/questions/quizzes, singing Jewish songs. This is age appropriate and suitable for children this age.

Summer camps were not started for entertainment purposes. They were started to provide a wholesome environment for Jewish kids in the summer, fresh air, learning, outdoor activities. Those older than 13 were/are in a learning program with time to refresh oneself in the pool or basketball court. It wasn't to "impress" kids, to babysit them, or to entertain them, though by now, could be many have degenerated into that. It was meant as an inspirational experience where children could blossom in an environment other than school, and older bachurim could learn in the country air.

Entertainment as a pursuit ONTO ITSELF is a very recent development in the Jewish world. The only "entertainment" pious people back in Europe had was listening to traveling magidim for hours, as far as I know. I haven't read about entertainment in Sefardic countries or in Eretz Yisrael.

I think the idea of Yiddish entertainment is somewhat of an oxymoron. Sure, teenagers should be occupied with good things, but I think if it's being thought about in terms of entertainment, that's a mistake. Teens (and adults) need to be inspired, to feel they are accomplishing and to be actually productive.

It's important to specify what age we're talking about. Talking about teens? some as old as 18 and up? That's marriageable age! Entertainment at this age seems way off base to me.


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68. Hobbies and Shidduchim     8/16/07 - 11:04 PM
Baruch Horowitz - Brooklyn, NY - borhowitz@yahoo.com

"I really think that boredom is a major problem here... but i try to deal with this boredom in kosher ways (though my hobby of playing guitar would not be considered good for a shidduch. My mother tried to stop me from taking it up as a hobby. I am really happy i did not listen to her and give in to her angry threats that people will think i am a bum and nobody will want to marry me".

You might find it interesting to make a study of Rabbonim who have interests outside of limud hatorah. I can tell you of a Rosh Yeshivah who plays the violin on Purim--he had to learn the skill sometime.

I understand concerns about not being seen as a jazz musician(if that is your point), but as a general point, I would agree that a hobby can help in the long run, not harm, one's shidduch by developing a person's interests and personality. Perhaps you should substitute a classical guitar instead of a less-yeshivish electric guitar in your dormitory :)


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69. Community orientation     8/17/07 - 12:34 AM
AK

Hi, I think entertainment discussed here is more of kids entertaining themselves, feeling stimulated and productive, being a ' gavra' rather than 'cheftza', making a contribution. If we take Reb Shimon Skop's introduction to Sha'arei Yoshor that kedusha is being community orientated whatever we do and some Alfie Kohn

1 Caring Kids, the role of schools - I feel it relates to the home as well, to any community structure. Cooperation, by virtue of being an interaction in which two or more people work together for mutual benefit, is not itself an example of prosocial behavior as the term is usually used. Neither does its successful use presuppose the existence of prosocial motives in all children. Rather, by creating interdependence and a built-in incentive to help, cooperative learning promotes prosocial behavior.

2

Alfie kohn talks about raising caring kids reviews 4 parenting strategies 1.Punishments, 2.bribes and 3. Encouraging commitment to values. To describe the limitations of the use of punishments and rewards is already to suggest a better way: the teacher's goal should not be simply to produce a given behavior - for example, to get a child to share a cookie or stop yelling - but to help that child see himself or herself as the kind of person who is responsible and caring. From this shift in self-concept will come lasting behaviors and values that are not contingent on the presence of someone to dispense threats or bribes. The child has made these behaviors and values his or her own.

4. Encouraging the group's commitment to values. What the first two approaches have in common is that they provide nothing more than extrinsic motivation. What the first two share with the third is that they address only the individual child. I propose that helpfulness and responsibility ought not to be taught in a vacuum but in the context of a community of people who learn and play and make decisions together. More precisely, the idea is not just to internalize good values in a community but to internalize, among other things, the value of community.

Perhaps the best way to crystallize what distinguishes each of these four approaches is to imagine the question that a child is encouraged to ask by each. An education based on punishment prompts the query, "What am I supposed to do, and what will happen to me if I don't do it?" An education based on rewards leads the child to ask, "What am I supposed to do, and what will I get for doing it?" When values have been internalized by the child, the question becomes "What kind of person do I want to be?" And, in the last instance, the child wonders: "How do we want our classroom (or school) to be?"

I have not read the book but the title From Compliance to Community for me implies that we don't need to focus on compliance and can achieve so much more if a kid is interested and sees value in ' How do we want our classroom (or school), family, youth club, community etc to be?"

IMHO boredom in some way has its roots in a reoccupation with the self, the me rather than being proactive in a prosocial way, mentoring, initiating fun things with other kids , underprivileged kids , involved in charities as mentioned above , the real fun is in the meaningful activities that contribute to others. One can be involved in learning , informal learning in the widest sense and share with others , explore with others. Maybe we have become narrow people excluding everthing , no reading, no sports and exercise, no lectures on general subjects and we also narrow the Torah , because Torah is life , includes everything


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70. right, BUT     8/17/07 - 12:45 AM
shtarkebachur

i agree with m only on the point that it's immature to need entertainment to fill your time. ok, m. good point. try telling that to the teenagers who are feeling totally unfulfilled with their avodas hashem due to a combination of parents not knowing how to raise inspired kids, and a chinuch system+community which is more focused on how good the kid LOOKS than on how well he is dealing with the real challenges of being frum. at this point we must face the reality; i speak from my own experience as a teenager with friends in our community: MANY jewish kids today are lacking a feeling of fulfillment in their avodas hashem. i do not think providing entertainment will solve this problem. it will take a communal change of mindset, or at least enough people to be able to inspire these kids, and even then there are no guarantees that these kids will change the way they have been taught to view yiddishkeit. but i do think that providing entertainment will keep some kids out of trouble, hopefully long enough for them to grow up and see the light in yiddishkeit. i respectfully fail to see the point in holding back kids from the entertainment they want if it will only do good for them. NOT providing them with entertainment, and hoping that this way they will realize that they should grow up and find fulfillment from accomplishing things, is at best wishful thinking. the kids want this. no we are not like the kids of the previous generation who needed nothing but pirchei once a week. the only question now is; how are we going to deal with this reality, try to change it perhaps, and until then, give the kids the outlet they need in as kosher a way as possible.

if the fear is that normal kids will see these things as an excuse to stop learning, that is highly unlikely to happen, since, as you said, mature kids find fulfillment from doing good deeds, so they don't need this. so it is the immature kids whom we are worried about, who will otherwise engage in destructive activities. so let those kids play pool for heaven's sake. i know i brings a bitter taste to our mouth to thing how far we are from the previous generation's level, but that is never an excuse to ignore the reality. no i cannot picture most of the kids i know running to hear traveling maggidim.


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71. Listen to Chazal     8/17/07 - 3:40 AM
emeslyaakov - Yerushalayim - emeslyaakov@yahoo.com

In today's "Agudah" world, if someone says (rachmona litzlan) that Chazal made a small mistake in or were ignorant of some small detail of science or medicine, he would be labeled a heretic, a scoffer, etc.

And yet, in critical areas of life, we are at least acting as if, if not openly saying that the words of Chazal are not relevant, and in contrast to what the Torah says "lo r'chok hu mim'cha", we say that we can not comply.

In Kohelet Rabbah (parshah 7) it says that of a thousand students who start to learn Mikra (i.e. Tanach), only 100 go out to learn Mishnah. From these, 10 go out to learn Talmud, and from these, only one reaches the level of hora'ah - a rav who can posken shaylos.

Not everyone, not even every smart person is an intellectual who is suited to sitting in yeshiva all day. This is not my personal apikorsus, this is what Chazal said.

I am a Litvack form Litvacksville, but let us remember what the Ba'al Shem Tov was all about. He said two major things, one very much in line with Chazal, and one against. He said that you don't have to be a talmid chachom or sit in Yeshiva all day to be an 'oveid Hashem, or to love Hashem or to be loved by Hashem. This is backed up by the ma'amar chazal which I quoted. (The other thing that he said, that it is more important what is in your heart than the precise fulfillment of the details of the mitzvos is very problematic.)

By forcing everyone to fit into the yeshiva mold, we are denying to many people the opportunity to be 'oveid Hashem in a way that is right for them. The result is that some (many?) break out and run away.

If instead we gave them an opportunity to learn on their level - maybe just Tanach (not just Chumash, we can recapture Nach from the maskilim)and halacha l'ma'aseh - and let them learn a craft or trade, so that they can feel fulfilled and productive, then these problems would be lessened.

The other area in which we deny Chazal (certain groups excepted) is in the area of marriage.

Shemoneh esrei l'chuppah (18 years old to the wedding canopy) is not the minimum age to get married. The Gemorra says that to really poke the yetser hara in the eye, get married at 14. The Shulchan Aruch agrees with that.

The simple halacha in the Gemorra is that if a man has not married by age 20, first of all , he is permanently warped (the Gemorra says "col yomav b'hirhur 'aveirah - all of his days he will be thinking about sin), and secondly, Beis Din is supposed to force, by lashes if necessary, to get married right away.

Instead, we encourage our children to push off marriage. Very few boys, except in strict Chassidishe circles, get married at age 18. Even at 20, most Litvishe bochrim and many Chassidishe bochrim have not gotten married.

There are many reasons and excuses given, but it all boils down to people saying that (chas v'shalom) the words of Chazal are not binding and not relevant.

I think that if we would give many bochrim (and meidelach too) an outlet to grow up to be 'ovdei Hashem even though they are not intellectuals (this does not mean that they are not smart, it just means that they were not made for a day full of discussing the intricacies of the Talmud, they could still be doctors or builders, etc.), and we would give them a chance to have proper Torah contact with the correct person of the opposite sex - their spouse, then we could solve many of these problems.


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72. offer to shtarkebachur     8/17/07 - 5:57 AM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey NY

Shtarkebachur:

You articulate your thoughts very well.

Can I make you an offer that I made earlier to the '20-year-old' bachur.

Would you consider writing an article that reflects your thoughts on this matter? I will gladly edit it for you and do what I can to get it published.

Yakov


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73.     8/17/07 - 11:27 AM
Anonymous

emeslyaakov - can you provide sources for the things you quoted about the Baal Shem Tov?

(also, seems to me, when we know that chasidim are known for mesirus nefesh for mitzvos - retaining a beard situations of extreme duress, chalav yisrael, for example, that it's highly presumptuous to refer to a statement (whether he really said it or not is another story) of the Besht as AGAINST CHAZAL and highly problematic. Presumputous? It's actually quite a chutzpa to say that of a tzadik)


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74. falsehoods     8/17/07 - 3:47 PM
jackal - mountains

I take great issue with the Rabbis comment about "hundreds of teens standing outside snorting drugs". I am one of the teens who regularly hang out at the club and not once have I seen anyone snorting anything. Yes there were many boys and girls from Yeshiva backgrounds not exactly dressed or acting like rebbetzins, we are typical teenagers who are looking to have good harmless fun, we sometimes need a break from the stifling frum atmosphere which is not exactly contributing to our emotional wellbeing. So in summation While your motives are good, gross embellishment and exagarations serve no purpose other to further alienate and drive away young Jews.


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75. thank you Rabbi     8/17/07 - 4:30 PM
shtarkebachur

i would like to write something and have it published on your website. i will be in touch. e-address?


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76. entertainment     8/18/07 - 10:53 PM
M

you write: "NOT providing them with entertainment, and hoping that this way they will realize that they should grow up and find fulfillment from accomplishing things, is at best wishful thinking."

You make it into an either-or thing, EITHER entertainment OR NOTHING. Why reduce it to such a pathetic choice?

"the kids want this."

Not really. They want meaning in their lives, they want to be productive, to make a difference in the world. We (parents, schools) should be providing the opportunities.

Kids don't need to be on a "high level" for this. These are basic needs, not like you said, "mature kids find fulfillment from doing good deeds". It applies to all people.

"no i cannot picture most of the kids i know running to hear traveling maggidim."

no kidding I wasn't suggesting that they would (though I think they'd be fascinated by a great speaker. I watched J. Rietti speak to a group of teens and they loved it). I mentioned that in connection with the point of entertainment not being a Jewish activity.

I think kids need and want active pursuits, not passive ones. Entertainment is passive, ex. watching a movie, attending a concert.

I read an article by Neal Goldberg who started an organization called Lev Leytzan for kids 11-23 to learn how to be clowns. They have a great time dressing up, fooling around, etc. and they cheer people up in hospitals, nursing homes, rehab centers and the homes of people recuperating from serious illnesses.

This perfectly epitomizes what I'm talking about. As the author put it, "Young people need to give of themselves just as adults do. Many of the young adults ... share the common thread of being kids with the desire to be ignited, a desire to have a spark lit inside them and an activity to sustain it. This is NOT accomplished THROUGH INDULGENCE OR SELF-ABSORPTION. Both purpose and value are concrete when a person spends himself on others. (see Horizons issue #52).


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77. misunderstanding     8/18/07 - 11:18 PM
shtarkebachur

okay, i thought you were saying that providing kids with any entertainment is not a good idea. were you? i definitely think that kids need to find fulfillment, which is why i stressed that; "MANY jewish kids today are lacking a feeling of fulfillment in their avodas hashem. I DO NOT THINK PROVIDING ENTERTAINMENT WILL SOLVE THIS PROBLEM. it will take a communal change of mindset, or at least enough people to be able to inspire these kids, and even then there are no guarantees that these kids will change the way they have been taught to view yiddishkeit. but i do think that providing entertainment will keep some kids out of trouble, hopefully long enough for them to grow up and see the light in yiddishkeit." so entertainment is certainly not the answer, as you said, because what these kids are missing is an active participation in fulfilling activities. i think people need to come up with more ideas similar to LevLeitzan, for example.

however, entertainment, such as a kosher basketball court, is something with potential to keep kids out of trouble. i just now heard of a family in Lakewood that built a basketball court in their basement, though they do not have much money, so that yeshiva bachurim should have what to do in their relaxation time, and not have to go to a park where lowlifes hang out. there is no


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78. define     8/18/07 - 11:25 PM
M

okay, so we need to define entertainment then!

I think playing basketball is a great idea. It's not passive. It's not entertainment (unless you are merely watching a game). American Yeshiva bachurim have always played sports.

Maybe relaxation and recreation is what you mean, as opposed to entertainment.

Does anybody read anymore? Is that passe? uncool?


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79. Off the Derech     8/19/07 - 12:42 AM
Yehudit - LA

As a mother of 5, three of which are teens, I have found that the book "Off The Derech..Why Observant Jews Leave Judaism...How to Respond to the Challenge" by Faranak Margolese most helpful. The perspectives presented result from over 5 years of research, including 1,000's of pages of in depth personal interviews with formerly observant Jews from across the religious/age spectrum as well as interviews w/ prominent Rabbis, educators, therapists... in addition on her website she surveyed 446 formerly observat Jews...Let's stop guessing..

I would also like to remark regarding the sweet young gentleman,Shtarkebachur..why would you want to marry a girl who is opposed to marrying you b/c you have a creative talent-playing guitar-making music-didn't the Leviim play music as well as David Hamelech? music..a gift from Hashem, most likely... do you want your marriage to be stifled b/c someone is in fear of creativity? What a sad thing....


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80. i dunno     8/19/07 - 2:47 AM
shtarkeB - shtarkebachur@aol.com

i am not sure myself. you see, people tend to judge very quickly, and if they see a guy who plays guitar, that means he is not really frum. but then again, as you said, i wouldn't want to marry someone like that. it shows she has a very superficial view of what is frum. so maybe it's better for me to stop trying to hide that i play guitar. but i'm still scared of being judged. i'm really mixed up. and i'm worried that there could be good girls who have PARENTS who are superficial, and THEY would stop their kids from meeting me. also there's the general problem of getting a NAME as a "Bum" because i play guitar, and then regular frum girls will not want to consider me, because they are scared of being known as the girl who married a bum. but then again that would mean the girl is very superficial if she is more worried about what people will think than what is really important to her. i don't know how much guts i can expect a girl, even a sensible one, to have in the face of getting funny looks from people because she married a bum. i am not sure yet what type of girl i would like to marry, but i think i would want a girl who is strong about her yiddishkeit, in a real way, AND from a frum background, so we can relate to each other. it just seems to me that girls from my type of background are more focused on what impression the boy makes on other people than how frum he really is. so i am trying to keep up a good name for the people in my area of frumkeit, but i am still not sure i want such a girl. but maybe i am wrong about these girls. i really have no idea, i know very few girls and they are all in my family and i don't really know them well either. meanwhile i am trying to figure out what to do, so i am not going to even consider getting married until i do. i am seriously mixed up.


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81. to M     8/19/07 - 2:55 AM
shtarkebachur

i think people used to read more because in those days it was acceptable to read goyishe books, which are by far more interesting (usually), more sophisticated, and more AVAILABLE than yiddishe books. maybe nowadays the goyishe books are less clean, but there is the reason why people don't read, there is nothing to read! i know because i LOVE to read, and used to do so for hours, until i simply read all the books!! for a few years i have not had anything to read, except for a few hours after a new novel came out. so what should we read, goyishe books?


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82. about reading     8/19/07 - 11:30 AM
Anonymous

I'll tell you what I did. Although we don't have a Yiddish speaking home, when my son learned to read Hebrew, I took books out of the Jewish library in Yiddish and in Hebrew for him. He became proficient in reading in both of those languages and this made many books available to him with wholesome, Jewish content.

Even now that he's older and also reads in English, his Yiddish and Hebrew language skills are superior and it's a treat for him to go to a sefarim store and pick out sefarim in lashon ha'kodesh to read.

Boruch Hashem, I had the foresight to do this, because as you say, if you're eliminating non-Jewish books, there aren't enough Jewish books in English to read. At least with three languages, there's lots more.

Nevertheless, I think a list of "clean" and hashkaficially non-objectionable secular books could be compiled so that those who want to read for relaxation can do so.

After all, if today's kids are not reading but surfing the net instead, they are reading and viewing plenty, and it's a spiritual minefield. Better they should read O. Henry stories.


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83. to shatarkebachur     8/19/07 - 7:50 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey/NY

my private email address is yhdarchei@aol.com

i am the only one who reads those emails.

looking forward to reading your article.

yakov


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84. about playing guitar     8/19/07 - 9:14 PM
TZ

Rabbi Horowitz, Correct me if I am wrong, but I do recall that when I was at one of your shiurinm, you mentioned that your son took his guitar with him when he went to learn in Eretz Yisroel. You mentioned that at the airport someone commented that you were brave for allowing your son to be seen in public carrying his guitar to which you responded that you though it was a perfectly acceptable outlet. Please, for goodness sakes, if a bachur enjoys making music, let him set the tone for a kumzitz or melaveh malkah. I love music and I think that is a beautiful think to do. Heaven knows, we certainly need more kosher music today. Even the jewish music sounds like rock and roll!!


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85. Guitars, electric or otherwise     8/20/07 - 6:01 PM
anonymous

I had no idea how naive I was. I'm a 40 something FFB female. (I live out of town, FWIW.) When I lived in Lakewood 20+ years ago the buchrim who did music programs in nursing homes erev Shabbos had excellent, truly excellent reputations.

And I thought electric guitars was a normal phase all teenage boys who play guitar go through ;-)

Rabbi Horowitz, have you done any articles on "normal" and the need for normalcy, as per the story of the gadol, I think Rav Scheinberg, shlita, who took a young man who was accepting too many hanhagos on himself and shook him and said, Why can't you be normal?! May you go maichayil el chayil and much nachas from your grandson and family.


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86.     8/20/07 - 11:32 PM
Anonymous

Guitars? Didn't Hashem create each of us with special talents, all of them to serve Him and the klal? Weren't we given neshamas that can be elevated by music? Doesn't listening to sweet Jewish music give a feeling of shalom? A hindrance to marriage? What is going on?

Sometimes this scene seems like an out-of-control game of one-upmanship in being machmir. Who can think of something new to ban to prove how machmir they are?


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87. thanks for the support     8/21/07 - 12:52 AM
shtarkebachur

you guys rock! (sorry if you find that offensive LOL). it feels great to know that there are people who DON"T think i am bummy for playing guitar.


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88. thank you     8/21/07 - 7:31 AM
Anonymous

Finally someone who is willing to state the truth... thank you Rabbi Horowitz.


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89. online lecture Why Observant Jews Leave Judaism     8/21/07 - 9:34 AM
AK

Hi, I thank Yehudit for the book recommendation. Here is an online lecture http://www.torahmedia.com/filelink.php

Off the Derech: Why it happens and how to prevent it [otd2] Speaker: Margolese, Mrs. Faranak Series: Off the Derech Lectures Lecture Details: Lecture by the author of Off the Derech: Why Observant Jews Leave Judaism Library: Darche Noam View All Lectures Level: N/A Age: All Adults Gender: both Length: 42 min


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90. re the book "Off the Derech" - beware     8/21/07 - 11:41 AM
Anonymous

I asked one of the rabbis interviewed for the book what he thought of the book and he said:

"The part that has to do with how to relate to the kids, how to talk to them, how to deal with them -- thats OK. The Hashkafa part is horrible."

I read through the book and found many, many errors in her sources, her reasoning, her Torah outlook.


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91. music     8/21/07 - 11:42 AM
M

shatarkebachur - what kind of music do you play on your guitar?


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92. Electric Guitar     8/21/07 - 11:59 AM
Baruch Horowitz - Brooklyn, NY - borhowitz@yahoo.com

"it feels great to know that there are people who DON"T think i am bummy for playing guitar."

Re my comments #68, I have no problem with electric guitars, and wish I could play them myself. I thought that some might view a classical guitar as more conventional, and therefore thought of the two-guitar solution to your problem--one at home and a different one in the dorm.

I know someone in a "moderately-yeshivish" American yeshiva, who played the saxaphone at yeshivah gatherings and at sheva berachos in the yeshivah. I suppose a sax and an electric guitar are on the same level, although you never know :)


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93. Off the Derech interview     8/21/07 - 12:01 PM
Ak

Hi, I listened to the interview. I am not sure what you mean by Hashkafot. The one thing that did make me think in the interview was that we are all big on Haskafa , rejecting others. In halacha we follow the rov , hashkafa you don't have to follow the rov. I am sure the teachers and Rabbis who caused pain to kids had great hashkafot. We sometimes have to be big enough to send a kid to a school that fits him despite the hashkafa. When we reject people or other groups , it is so much easier for a kid to go off the derech.


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94. #84; TZ     8/21/07 - 1:01 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey NY

Tz Wrote:

TZ

Rabbi Horowitz, Correct me if I am wrong, but I do recall that when I was at one of your shiurinm, you mentioned that your son took his guitar with him when he went to learn in Eretz Yisroel. You mentioned that at the airport someone commented that you were brave for allowing your son to be seen in public carrying his guitar to which you responded that you though it was a perfectly acceptable outlet. Please, for goodness sakes, if a bachur enjoys making music, let him set the tone for a kumzitz or melaveh malkah. I love music and I think that is a beautiful think to do. Heaven knows, we certainly need more kosher music today. Even the jewish music sounds like rock and roll!!

TZ; I am honored that you remembered something I mentioned off the cuff a few years ago.

If I have a few moments, I will write that one up for the rest of our readers. It was quite a story.

In the meantime, please review this column on hobbies, where I mention music as a great, kosher hobby.

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=113&ThisGroup_ID=261&Type=Article


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95. hashkafos     8/21/07 - 1:44 PM
Anonymous

Ak: If you are not sure what I mean by hashkafos, then doesn't seem reasonable to follow that with comments about it.

"I am sure the teachers and Rabbis who caused pain to kids had great hashkafot."

sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever

there is no Jewishs hashkafa that allows or entails causing pain to others


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96. to: 'shtarkebachur' and '20-year-old'     8/21/07 - 2:01 PM
Yakov Horowitz - Monsey NY

20-year-old:

yesterday, i got a powerful article from shtarkebachur. i edited it and submitted it for publication in a major weekly.

I will post on this site when it is published.

20-year-old; where is your column????

yakov


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97. to M     8/21/07 - 7:36 PM
shtarkebachur

i play any frum jewish music that i know. kumzitz, dance music, and that can get rocky.


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98. Anonymous     8/21/07 - 10:03 PM
anonymous613

Not sure how many anonymice there are, but I was anon#85 (I think)- the 40+ out of town woman. I didn't write anything else. Call me anonymous 613.


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99. Off the Derech is a well-spring of insight and information on this subject     8/21/07 - 10:11 PM
tb

Re the anonymous poster who warns us to beware: the book "Off the Derech."

Off the Derech is the best book out there on this subject. It is informative and clear. It is not surprising that there would be those who ban it. It is a straightshooting book with data and very little sugarcoating. That said, there is nothing salacious or hashkafically objectionable in it if your Hashkafah is Torah Judaism. I hope all parents and relatives of children at risk and all Mechanchim read this book. Any initiative to Assur it binds itself with the crux of the causes of at-risk behavior. Our children are not losing this fight. We are losing it for them if we don't allow ourselves to be properly educated.


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100. Dancing Kosher     8/22/07 - 6:29 AM
N

I was recently at a mixed-seating wedding, with a Mechitza for the dancing. A real, good Kosher Mechitza, although many of the celebrants dressed like they wouldn't have minded the dancing being mixed.

So you can imagine how they danced. Nope, it was not my scene at all. No sir.

But then I stopped. And then I thought. Women amongst women - however they dance, it's really OK. It really is not the ikkar if they got the motions from watching TV. What really matters is that they are keeping Halacha.

So I joined in. With all my heart. I did like the others did, with love, with understanding, with enjoyment.

I let go of the need to reshape the world the way I wanted it, and refocused on the need to demonstrate to the girls my Ahavas Yisroel, and that even very frum people can be cool.

One girl told me afterwards that she didn't know I was such a groovy dancer and that I put her to shame. (I am at least 10 years older than she).

Her words and everyone's merriment have given me such a high! What a wedding!


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101. And the reason is>     8/22/07 - 6:33 AM
N

And I forgot to mention = that I got the impetus for this from the fantastic people on this list. When someone wrote (was it Rabbi H?): you've gotta learn about all these modern devices that the kids are all finding out about. There is no excuse for ignorance. With ignorance you cannot parent.

So I thought the same thing applies here too. Get involved.


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102. Haskafos/ Experiences     8/22/07 - 7:33 AM
Ak

Hi, Being a mensch has little to do with Haskafos. Sometimes Haskafos or even Frumkeit can get in the way of being a mensch. Rabbeinu Yeruchum is pretty tough on this issue. He says keep away from people who do mitzvot, the area where people are dangerous is in the area of mitzvot - Kol machloket she lesheim shamayim sofa lihit kayeim - if it was mot the lesheim shamayim people would be pragmatic and compromise. and IMHO give ahavas yisroel a bigger priority instead of the haskafa of u' biurta ha'ra mi'kirbecha. Rabbeinu Yeruchum quotes the medrash bakeish shalom, v'radfeihu - seek peace , not mitzvot. If parents, caregivers, teachers would first seek peace , seek to maintain and promote healthy relationships rather than sheim shamayim , the mitzvot.

N- Thanks for sharing your positive experiences. one of the humbling experiences on Israeli busses is to be initially judgmental about ' dress code' and then to notice that the young lady is saying Tehilim or Perek Shira, in fact being connected to Hashem than you are.

Simchas can be problematic and people act according to their Rabbis. While some people would not attend a mixed Barmitvah , they don't have a problem to participate in a moshav leitzim who continue to eat , drink and talk while Rabbis whom the ba'al Hasimcha has asked to speak , are delivering their speeches.


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103. "off the derech"     8/22/07 - 5:08 PM
M

Nobody's banning "off the derech" (AFAIK). The author is not "ban-worthy."

The following are excerpts from a Letter to the Editor of the Jewish Observer in response to a review of the book in that magazine:

" ..... I must, however, voice my objection to the positive review of the book Off the Derech, by Faranak Margolese. Being intimately involved with kids who are off the derech (I'm a rebbe at Kesher Yeshiva in Yerushalayim, a program for young men who have gone off the derech) I was naturally very curious about this book, and what information and guidance it has to offer to those of us working in the field. So I picked up the book, enthusiastic and optimistic about what I'd find within. To my dismay, I was sorely disappointed. Needless to say, the author surely wrote the book with the best of intentions. Nevertheless, there are countless examples of highly objectionable material in her writings.

My objection to Rabbi Gluck's praise of the book rests on two counts: 1. We should be consulting daas Torah for answers to our communal problems, not an outsider whose hashkafa is very different than ours. 2. The book itself is non-authoritative and haskafically objectionable.

... Faranak Margolese clearly is an intelligent, firmly religious individual. But she is not, and never was, a member of the yeshivish world. In fact, by her own admition, she experienced feelings of anger and bitterness towards black-hat Judaism. In chapter 3, Margolese involves the reader with her recent struggle to become observant and the obstacles that stood in her way. She tells of the disappointment she suffered when attending a black-hat seminary at the age of 17 ... Black hat Judaism was painful and that colored everything… I still respected Torah, but wanted little to do with the black hat world… " Margolese goes on to describe how this pain was too much to bear, and led her to return to her former, non-observant lifestyle.

This is an account of deep emotional rejection, which occurred only a few years prior to the inception of Off the Derech. Although the author claims to have resolved her issues with yeshivish Orthodoxy (it "can be good", she admits), her own path of return to observance was along an alternative road; she is a graduate of Stern College, with an MA from Columbia University. Her religious ideology is of a distinctly Modern Orthodox nature, as is apparent throughout the book.

... her hashkafic outlook is incompatible with our mesorah, is a matter of fact. This is clear from many of her suggested solutions to the off the derech phenomenon – sweeping changes in the way that the yeshivos teach and present yiddishkeit. Without consulting even one Rosh Yeshiva, gadol hador, or any of their associates who can communicate daas Torah on klal matters, Margolese berates the yeshivish system time and time again, pointing out fallacies and suggesting reforms that have major implications on the mesorah of how Torah is transmitted. Is she truly qualified to make such suggestions? Is the yeshivish world so desparate for guidance that we will let anyone tell us how to deal with the issues that are facing us? Let's consult our own gedolim, our own mechanchim, our own mental health professionals who are in tune with daas Torah, on matters that are clearly of a hashkofic nature.

continued in next comment


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104. cont. from previous comment     8/22/07 - 5:11 PM
M

"Besides not being written by a qualified authority on the subject (as outlined above), the research in Off the Derech is sloppy and inconclusive, and the conclusions are not supported by sources but rather based on the author's personal opinion, outlook, and social and educational theories.

Inconclusive Research

1. The crux of Margolese's "research" is the extensive interviews that she conducted with children and adults who have gone off the derech. Margolese quotes candidly from these interviews, giving the reader an earful of complaints, frustrations, and angry, resentful and blasphemous remarks.

She takes their comments at face value, building on them the foundation upon which most of the book rests. Margolese admits that the reports of those that she interviewed may not reflect reality. Nevertheless, she argues, we need to understand what these people went through in terms of their own experience (pg. 16).

Here, the author has made a grave error. True, if you are counseling someone and helping them work through their feelings, it is more important to know "what they went through" than what actually transpired. But, when you're objective is to determine the real causes of people going off the derech, it is imperative that you know what really transpired. It is the objective reality that matters, not what a bitter 18-yr.-old perceives as having transpired.

It has been my (and my colleagues') experience from working with kids who have gone off the derech that the stories that kids tell about why they abandoned yiddishkeit are generally inaccurate, biased, and very often made up completely. People who stop keeping mitzvos are usually bitter, angry, and conscience-ridden. This mix of emotions leads them to conjure up stories, exaggerate facts, and to seek out the negative in a desperate search for excuses to justify their "way of life."

I have seen this over and over again. And, in a moment of truth, the kids themselves are the first to admit it. Get two kids who are off the derech in a room together and ask one of them why he's not frum. As soon as he begins to answer, the other one typically takes him to task with "you're full of garbage!" (This is one of the reasons why group therapy is a very powerful tool in getting kids to realize the roots of their issues – the kids will challenge each other in ways that no therapist can.)

Often it is only after a young man has come back to the fold that he is able to objectively assess why he ran away in the first place. (Had Margolese interviewed a group of such young men and women – and there are many of them – her book would have looked drastically different.)

In short, the worst possible source to turn to in trying to understand why people turn off the derech, is people have turned off the derech. Just imagine interviewing a group of murderers to find out why people commit murder. You're likely to hear a lot of excuses, none of which will help in dealing with the phenomenon or bettering society.

(NOTE: When dealing with youth who have abandoned yiddishkeit it is always important to feel a real love and compassion for them. Many have gone through excruciating experiences, and are – in part – victims of circumstance. At the same time, it is imperative to instill in these young men and women a strong sense of responsibility for their decisions and actions. It is a delicate balance, and veering to either extreme can be insensitive and counter-productive. My point in this section is not to assign blame, but simply to point out the fact that the experience of rejecting a way of life is necessarily accompanied by a bias.)

... In the opening of the book, Margolese admits and grapples with this problem, but her resolution is hardly satisfactory (pg. 13): "Such is the case with many people. The answers that first come to mind are often superficial. Beneath them lie the deeper, more meaningful issues, which can take years of hard work and honesty to discover. As I conducted my interviews, I realized that many people were not in touch with those deeper reasons and that I would have to accept much of what I heard at face value. But even the superficial responses or confusing ones revealed something very important about why they had left observant life. They eventually revealed patterns and similarities which explained the issues properly." In short, what Margolese is saying here is that she put zero and zero together to make one. Although people were unable to properly identify their reasons for going off the derech, since enough people came up with the same superficial reasons, these patterns became the truth. What really ends up happening in this book is that Margolese uses the interviews to support her own theories.

cont. in next comment


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105. cont. from previous comment     8/22/07 - 5:16 PM
M

"... over seventy percent of the poll responses are from people who were brought up either secular or marginally Orthodox (not shomer halacha, other than Shabbos and kashrus). Throughout the book Margolese refers to the answers supplied by these people in her analysis of the yeshivish community (one of the primary focuses of Off the Derech). This is like testing apples in a laboratory to find out the properties of oranges. (Indeed, many times in the book Margolese jumps from one sect of the Orthodox community to another, from children who went off the derech to adults who left the fold, ignoring the varying dynamics of these very different situations, and the possibility that each is deserving of its own separate discussion.)

" ... One of Margolese's solutions to the off the derech epidemic, is to encourage children to explore and challenge the foundations of Judaism ... the author has presented a "solution" that is clearly incompatible with the hahkafos of our gedolim and our mesorah, and supported it with a vort that borders on apikorsus.

" One of the causes of kids going off the derech, according to Margolese, is the inability of mechanchim in the yeshivish world to properly transmit the foundations of belief. She cites as an example a teacher who claimed that it is possible to know that there is a G-d. When a student asked challenging questions and was disappointed with the teacher's answers, the student decided to abandon yiddishkeit.

The author argues that it is wrong to tell children that we can know that there is a G-d, since the truth is that belief in G-d requires a leap of faith. "Merely comprehending Him is impossible," she writes, "let alone trying to prove He exists… After all is said and done, we must take a leap if we are to believe in G-d." She refers to Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb (Ohr Sameach) as a source for her understanding of this basic Jewish concept. Here, the author has made another terrible error. There are countless Jewish sources explaining that we are indeed commanded to KNOW that there is a G-d, that there is no leap of faith (see, for example, Rambam Hil. Yesodei Hatorah 1,1). Rabbi David Gottlieb has issued a public disclaimer on his website stating that Margolese misrepresents his position on this matter ( http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/comments/correction-to-off-the-derech.htm ). Again, a major error in basic hashkafa.

"In Chapter 4, Margolese describes the devastating effects of rejection on children and adults. In making her point, she points to an episode in the Gemara (Sanhedrin 107a) where Jesus is "rejected" by his rebbe, the Tanna Rebbe Yoshua. It is true that the Gemara here is offering a subtle criticism of Rebbe Yehoshua's approach to his talmid, but Margolese ends off this piece with a wholly inappropriate statement: "That dismissive hand wave may have ultimately prompted Christianity, which ironically focuses on unconditional love, forgiveness, and acceptance." (pg. 53) Here, the author is sympathizing with Jesus, portraying him as the innocent victim and Christianity as the peace-loving alternative to a non-accepting Judaism.

cont. in next comment


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106. cont. from previous comment     8/22/07 - 5:20 PM
M

" ... One of the themes that run through the book is the religious superiority of baalei teshuva over the frum from birth community. Margolese even goes so far as to suggest that we revamp our entire yeshiva system, patterning all yeshiva curriculum after the baalei teshuva yeshivos. (pgs. 215-216) She also recommends baalei teshuva as the best teachers, because "they have passion." (Ch. 19, endnote 7). Although there is no question that baalei teshuva add a positive dimension to the frum world, Margolese does not seem to be basing her assertions on anything more than her own personal experience. She presents no research on baalei teshuva's success rate of raising children who stay frum, although according to her assertions it should be far superior to that of children with frum from birth parents. This is an assumption that should not be taken for granted.

In Chapter 19, Margolese devises her own theory of the role of fear and love in Judaism. Aside from the fact that she does not support her ideas with any solid sources, her philosophy is not in line with the mesorah that is taught in our yeshivos. In her words, fear of G-d is "a necessary evil not to be perpetuated indefinitely" (pg.228). She then goes on to explain that mitzvos lo saaseh are likely to turn kids off, so we have to "balance and temper restrictions with pleasurable activities so that children are not deprived of joy and pleasure because of Torah." Although there may be virtue in what the author is saying, her presentation is liberal in its approach to mitzvos and their inherent value, and ignores the value of teaching duty and responsibility. Consider her suggestion: "…being required to make brachas can seem cumbersome. But when we focus on the underlying purpose – creating appreciation and happiness in life – the potentially cumbersome becomes more freeing." (ibid.) Margolese veers from the middle-of-the-road balance that is necessary to cultivate both enthusiasm and positivism towards yiddishkeit and strong unwavering commitment to Torah and mitzvos. By sugar-coating all of our children's religious responsibilities as Margolese suggests, we may be denying them an integral trait that is necessary to be a frum yid – the ability to comply with halacha even when it's difficult or "unfulfilling". Who's to say that the author's approach is not equally likely to set children up for failure in their future religious observance?

"In chapter 19, Margolese's approach to integrating the physical and the secular together with the sublime and spiritual is a liberal approach to religion that is not in line with the hashkafos that our Roshei Yeshivos and gedolim perpetuate. Statements such as, "…all majestic creations, whether the handiwork of G–d or man… should be valued because they are a means to achieving the G-dliness we seek in a way that other mitzvoth may not." (pg. 231) are not only very confusing, but they present a way of thinking that veers from our tradition.

"Margolese exaggerates the short-comings of the yeshivish community and educational system, giving the reader the impression that it is a backwards, unsophisticated way of life that is out of touch with reality. Page after page, she makes unfounded, sweeping statements such as, "We stress mitzvot bein adam lamakom and ignore the interpersonal mitzvot."


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107. cont. from previous comment     8/22/07 - 5:29 PM
M

"In the book's introduction, Margolese systematically disqualifies each of the experts in the field of rebellious youth, by pointing out that each has his or her own bias. (pg. 14): "Through my research, I have learned that one of the great mistakes that we make when we try to pinpoint the reasons for people going off the derech is oversimplification. Everyone sees things through their own particular lens. Those who work with abused children point to abuse as a primary cause. Those who work with children with learning disabilities consider disabilities as the principal factor. Drug counselors blame substance abuse. Rabbis, to varying degrees, believe the problem is contact with our open, hedonistic host culture, and educators dwell on negative peer group influences. Some simply finger-point; "It's not us, it's them." They are all right. And they are all wrong." So with one fell swoop, Margolese has set the stage for her ground-breaking book. Only someone of her unbiased stature – someone who is not a rabbi nor an educator, drug counselor, social worker, or mental health professional – can possibly present such a work. For the very first time, the reader will be privileged to hear an unbiased, objective, research-based study which clinically proves the reasons why frum Jews abandon yiddishkeit.

But this is hardly the case. The author repeatedly presents her own opinions, without any support from people who are in the know. In chapter after chapter, she super-analyzes the problems and theorizes about solutions; in the end, the reader is left with one thing: the Faranak Margolese guide to Better Judaism.

"In Chapter 2, Margolese "dispels the myth" that the yetzer hora is what causes people to go off the derech. In doing so, she argues that the yetzer hora can only cause one to stumble into a particular sin, but not to abandon religious observance completely. To prove her point, Margolese sights a "controversial movie" called "Trembling Before G-d," which depicts the struggle of Orthodox men with a yetzer hora for homosexuality. In the movie, she points out, some of these men remained observant in other areas even though they were transgressing a major sin. "If the yetzer hara could not pull them off the derech even as it waged such great conflict within them," posits Margolese, "how does it manage to pull away our children?" Therefeore, she concludes, the yetzer hara is not to blame for kids going off the derech. This support for Margolese's argument is so utterly ridiculous that it's hard to know where to begin critiquing it. Fistly, she herself writes that some of the men in this movie did become completely non-observant, disproving her theory. Secondly, a movie depicts events in an isolated situation. It is elementary that one cannot draw general conclusions based on any particular story. Thirdly, Margolese's treatment of the yetzer hara is a shallow approach to a very complex Torah subject, and she brings no Torah source to support her hypothesis.

"Margolese occasionally uses the podium to wax philosophical, introducing the reader to her own hashkafic insights into current events. One example of this is when she proposes that G-d has arranged the off the derech phenomenon in order to cure the Jewish people of sinat chinam. (pgs. 370-371) By forcing parents to deal with their aberrant children, she theorizes, G-d is fostering greater understanding and unity between the observant and non-observant worlds. Another example is when the author proposes the possibility that not every Jew was meant to be frum in this particular lifetime. Considering the concept of gilgulim (reincarnation of the soul), she asserts, it is certainly possible that it is only after a few appearances in this world that a particular neshama has the potential to reach full observance. She also encourages the reader to look at kids who go off the derech as "tzadikim". She compares them to a holocaust survivor whose inability to come to terms with G-d and religion would be understandable in light of their suffering. (pgs. 141-144)

"Such ideas have far-reaching hashkafic implications, and should be supported by Torah sources. To know how and when to apply Torah concepts to world events, when a comparison is appropriate or inappropriate, one must be steeped in Torah and yiras shamayim, or consult with the manheegay hador. Margolese simply takes literary license and introduces these theories on her own.

"On numerous occasions, the author makes surprising quotations without citing any source.... This is simply bad scholarship. Again, on page 233: "Rabbi Hayyim Volozhiner taught us that, 'to differ with a revered teacher is a milchemet mitzvah (a holy war) in which we give no quarter to an intellectual opponent because of station or prestige.'" This time there's a footnote. It reads, "Norman Lamm, 'The Uncivil War.' Los Angeles Jewish Times 9-15, 1999. That's the source for Rav Chaim Volozhinner's statement?!

"Furthermore, even the quotes that are properly footnoted, are often taken out of context and their meaning skewed to fit into the point that the author is trying to make...

"The author often veers away from the topic of abandonment of yiddishkeit and launches into a discussion of the shortcomings of the Orthodox world and how to repair them. The reader can't help but wonder if Margolese has a double-agenda, as the author offers solutions to global issues in the Jewish world that have little or nothing to do with the off the derech issue. While wanting to fix the world is a very noble, altruistic endeavor, Margolese's idealism seems to confuse her analysis of defection from yiddishkeit, as her suggestions for unifying and perfecting the observant world become her solution for keeping kids on the derech.

"In conclusion, it is important to note that Off the Derech does contain some very keen and fascinating insights into the off the derech phenomenon. Within the 400 pages of her book, Margolese occasionally hits on some important points and eloquently presents well-thought-out analyses that are on the mark. In light of all the aforementioned objections, however, these morsels of truth are hardly sufficient to validate the book as a whole. In fact, one of the greatest dangers of Off the Derech is that its good points and objectionable material are interspersed.

"The average reader, finding points that he or she agrees with, is likely to overlook Off the Derech's short-comings and be lured into corroborating with its conclusions. Furthermore, even the positive points of Off the Derech are by no means chiddushim. Each of Margolese's enlightening points can be found in the array of chinuch articles and books that have been published by professionals and mechanchim over the last ten years.

Yair Spolter


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108. Let's Hear Both Sides     8/22/07 - 8:25 PM
Baruch Horowitz - Brooklyn, NY - borhowitz@yahoo.com

There is a response to Rabbi Spolter's critique elsewhere on this website.

Rabbi Spolter's point may be true that a person should read the book with a grain of salt, and perhaps only someone who is secure in their own hashkafos(presumably that would include most educators and kiruv professionals) should read the book. There may therefore be value for certain people in reading the book, and I think that it's only fair to present the side of those who felt that the book was indeed appropriate to be reviewed in the Jewish Observer.

What concerns me more than the book itself is the point that some situations may be less- than- clear, and that something may be appropriate for some people and not for others. My own, deeply-felt, opinion is that more people would be attracted to the Yeshivah world and its publications if we would color issues, such as this one, with a little more gray.

A lack of diversity and an appropriate variety of opinion may itself be turning people Off the Derech--call it "Adults at Risk". To that end, people might want to read Rabbi Gluck's response together with Rabbi Spolter's to get a more complete picture of the book in question.

In short, while "Off the Derech" may contain advice in preventing the phenomenon of it's title, I can see why some might have the concern that a person might go "Off the Derech" (in terms of purity of hashkafa) from reading "Off the Derech"! On the other hand, neither do we want to cause anyone to go "Off the Derech" because of *how * we tell them *not* to read "Off the Derech" :)


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109.     8/22/07 - 9:28 PM
tb

Exactly.


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110. Thanks - Comments     8/23/07 - 2:50 AM
AK

Thanks to M and others for sharing the critique. I have only listened to the interview which I found interesting. In learning, you can argue with anybody and hold your opinion , in practical halacha it is different. IMHO the problem that we see today of saying a se'vrah , giving an opinion which is yours , original, being you and not just ' throwing out the party line is the lack of tolerance for anybody who thinks differently, so people stop thinking for themselves. For me the author is contributing to a debate and has stimulated my thinking. My comments 1 The author's suggestion that we should be more holistic and multidisciplinary and that kids usually have a problem in more than one area I think is sound advice and realistic. 2 I also had difficulty about her point about the Yeitzer Hara - Here in Israel many boys go off the derech when they are in the army and they say because of the Yeitzer Hara. But she does have a point, if you are being stimulated intellectually, find being frum meaningful , there will be a milchemet Hayeitzer. In most cases this is not the case , there is no opposition to the Yeitzer hara 3 Problems in Emunah - I think I read here on the site that a parent was advised that his son speak to some one involved with Ba'alei Teshuvah to resolve his emunah issues not his Rav in Yeshivah. In an article here the kid was told it takes 70 years to understand the ways of Hashem so even though Emunah is a simple thing , at the same time it is more of an emotional understanding , and IMHO kids that feel unconnected, not being fulfilled will have problems with Emunah 4 The people who need to be interviewed are the kids. Kids are directed by their feelings and perceptions , so we have to deal with perceptions , the feeling of being rejected and the lack of unconditional love. Check the beginning of the Tomer Devorah on Hashem's unconditional love and acceptance. I think her description of frum society and the consequences of this , being conditional, non tolerant and rejecting others is accurate. By narrowing choices , rejecting other Orthodox groups , it is easier for kids to fall off completely. 5 State of the Yeshivah world- I heard from a Rov , father a big Rosh Yeshiva in Israel , that there are only 2 yeshivahs in Israel where a kid gets chinuch. Today chinuch is from the home. Even in learning kids spend time learning and giving back what the Ram says instead of learning the texts themselves and becoming more accomplished 6 so I welcome discussion and dialog on these issues. What is happening is that it is easy to ban things , but it seems that the words of Gedolim seem to be falling on deaf ears. The call echoed here by Rabbi Horowitz in his articles is something in my personal experience here in Israel is being ignored.


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111. to shtarkebachur     10/22/07 - 11:10 PM
Shuli

I want to give my son music lessons!

Keep your head up and tell ppl you're a chosid of Dovid HaMelech!


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112. Encouraging news     6/16/08 - 2:07 PM
Anonymous

I read in the newspaper last week that the Kiamesha Lanes will be sponsoring Motzai Shabbos melave malka for girls this summer at 11pm every week with bowling, music & pizza. This sounds encouraging.

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I ask that you please consider supporting the work we are doing to improve the lives of our children. Click on these links to learn more about our teen and parent mentoring program that serves hundreds of teens and their families, or our KESHER program, now in 20 schools in 4 states. Your financial support can allow us to expand these services and help more children.

If you believe in the governing principles of this website – to help effect positive change through the candid discussions of the real issues we collectively face, please consider becoming a daily, weekly or monthly sponsor of this website and help defray the costs of it’s maintenance.



Working with Families and Educators on Behalf of our Children

This site is managed by The Center for Jewish Family Life, Inc., 56 Briarcliff Drive, Monsey, NY 10952
Project Y.E.S. was founded by Agudath Israel of America
Project Y.E.S. 161 Kings Highway, Brooklyn, NY 11223 - 718-256-5360, fax: 718-256-5364 projectyes@pyes.org


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