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Enough is Enough!
by Miriam Shear

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10/24/07

When I publicly disclosed the beating I received on the #2 bus going to the Kotel last November it was after consulting with daas Torah and after lots of soul searching. I did not relish the black eye this would inevitably give Chareidi Jews, and I was uncomfortable associating my name with such a grievous event.

There was no shortage of criticism leveled at me for publicizing this horrendous incident. While the majority of the 3,000+ emails I received were supportive and even congratulatory for my refusal to be bullied by a group of mutineers on a public bus, there were nevertheless a significant enough minority who felt that I had erred for various reasons. The most common was that I should have behaved as a “bas melech Yisrael” and could have avoided all of the ugliness if I would have just been a little more compliant. A few even went so far as to condemn my response to the initial spitting (“you should have just gotten up and moved to the back”).

When Jonathan Rosenblum interviewed me for his Mishpacha article, “Knowing our Limits”, he was sincere (without condemnation) in his curiosity as to why I stood my ground in refusing to give up my seat. This is what I explained: “The incident has to be taken in the context of what was going on while I was in Yerushalyim for 5 weeks – during the “gay parade” brouhaha. Every night, yeshivas were letting their students out to riot in the streets. Garbage cans were dumped and strewn in the streets and their contents set on fire. Many people, particularly the elderly and small children, had been rushed to hospitals suffering from respiratory difficulties due to the toxicity of the smoke that was belching throughout residential neighborhoods. Public health officials were warning that the carcinogens in the air were at dangerous levels. I personally was in bed for 3 days with a severe respiratory infection caused by being forced to inhale these fumes every day. Almost every morning, our bus would have to stop and carefully navigate around burning piles of rubbish. Sometimes, people would have to get off the bus to remove these burning piles so the bus could get through and soil their hands and clothes in the process. I stood at Kikar Shabbat one evening and watched boys as young as 8 and 9 running through the streets setting anything within their reach on fire. A white van made the big mistake of traveling through Kikar Shabbat. The van was pelted with objects. When the driver stopped and got out of his van, it was overturned and torched. Nobody even knew if this driver was “for” or “against” the very thing the rioters were rioting about! I asked one of the boys – about age 10 – “do you know why you’re doing this?” His answer: “Because it’s fun!” The following Shabbos, an acquaintance of mine told me that her sons were “not going to shul today, they need to sleep in and catch up on their rest because their rebbe had let them out to go rioting almost every night this week.” I couldn’t resist responding that I wouldn’t send my son to such a yeshiva that employed such “rebbes”.’

I also went on to explain to Mr. Rosenblum that it sickened me to stand and watch the store in Geula which had been burned to the ground by the area’s “Tznius Patrol”. This store, “One of a Kind”, is owned by an American Rosh Yeshiva’s wife who sells nice and affordable tznius clothing. However, sequins on some of the items did not meet the tznius standards of this “Patrol” and they demanded its removal from the store. The proprietor refused; they responded with an arson that destroyed her merchandise, her store, and her livelihood – and probably jacked up the insurance rates for everyone else in the neighborhood. (Kol ha kavod to this woman for rebuilding her store since then.)

During my 5 week stay in Yerushalyim, I also heard many accounts of women being surreptitiously bleached by more “Tznius Patrol” squads. If their clothing did not measure up to their standards, a baby bottle of bleach delivered its contents, thus rendering the garment useless. I know people who refuse to shop in Geula and Meah Shearim as a consequence of such actions.

It is against this backdrop and in this context, I explained to Mr. Rosenblum, that I decided “enough is enough” and I am drawing my own line in the sand: I will not capitulate to anyone – even over a seat – who wants to impose their chumras on me. It wasn’t a matter of being an American who is socially conditioned to protect her “rights” – it was about pushing back against bullies who have yet to learn that they do not own the streets or the buses; who haven’t learned that basic derech eretz dictates that a young man half my age should not even suggest I move my seat.

It never crossed my mind that I would be inviting a beating by refusing to move to the back of the bus. The most I expected were some heated verbal exchanges. I honestly did not believe that frum men would beat up on a woman on a public NON-Mehadrin bus over the seating arrangement.

The beating was bad enough. The fact that nobody came to my assistance during this melee was just as shameful. Equally disdainful were those who voiced support for those engaged in the assault.

One Year Later

It has been almost a full year since this incident took place. There has been much time to reflect, to weigh the opinions and comments of others, and to explore solutions to this type of “holy” perversion in our community. Many web sites have discussed this phenomenon within the aura of Torah. Some of these people have done so at great risk to their personal and professional reputations within their own communities. These brave voices need to be given our support. They need us to stick our necks out as well and say “Enough is enough!” Most importantly, we need to educate ourselves and our children and become more “secure” in our Torah values.

It has been brought to my attention a few times that the arbitrary decision by the #2 bus riders to make this line Mehadrin was instituted as a response to the horrific bombing on this line a few years prior. In an effort to provide more physical protection, it was decided to increase the spiritual value of tznius – and its inherent protection – by implementing a separate seating arrangement.

Increasing our shmira in our mitzvah observance in the wake of tragedy is unarguably commendable to the highest degree. But, I would like to ask the men who beat up women on buses: Do the bruises and humiliation you inflict on others, and the dishonor you bring to our Torah and our people increase your ruchnius – and of those around you – or does it diminish it? Did you offer more physical protection in the “merit” of such actions, or leave all of us at greater risk – both physically and spiritually? Did you even manage to accomplish one iota in convincing anyone that separate seating on buses was a value literally worth fighting for? If you are still convinced that your cause has merit, then why didn’t you follow the course of due process available to you: Petition Egged to designate the #2 bus as Mehadrin? This is not a futile endeavor, as Egged has reviewed every single request submitted to them and granted almost all of them. Your failure to follow this simple, easy procedure makes all of us question your true motives.

Let me tell you what you have “accomplished” with your total disregard of halacha, Torah, and dina malchusa dina: Because of your actions, five women have petitioned the High Court to have ALL Mehadrin buses suspended. The hearing is scheduled this December. You have put Egged into a legally contentious predicament costing them thousands of shekels. Most likely, because of your actions, Egged will not be legally permitted to offer Mehadrin lines. This means that the private bus lines will return, catering to your request for separate seating arrangements. That’s fine for everyone – except Egged, of course, whose revenues will certainly be dented by these entrepreneurs. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

To those who beat up this Beit Shemesh woman last week or the ones who assaulted me last November, or who engage in any kind of violence: The chumras you take upon yourself should not be used to dominate and control others. It would be better for you to forgo your chumras and correct that which is within. Otherwise, your actions will be your own sword upon which you will fall.

As for all charedi Jews worldwide; it is high time that we collectively say in a loud and clear voice, “Enough is Enough!”

That means standing up to the bullies who shame Hashem’s name by committing violence, and equally as important, assisting those who are injured by their criminal actions.

© 2007 Miriam Shear, all rights reserved



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1. Making a stand     10/24/07 - 5:11 PM
Ak

Thanks for sharing your insights. I found the following particulary meaningful to me

' These brave voices need to be given our support. They need us to stick our necks out as well and say “Enough is enough!” Most importantly, we need to educate ourselves and our children and become more “secure” in our Torah values.'

It happens pretty frequently that Rabbi Horowitz (and others)is challenged as to whether he consulted Da'as Torah. I consider the challenge as an attempt to bully and stifle thinking and taking a moral and ethical stand. ' We need to become more secure in our Torah values , so we are not Rosh Katan , and can make a stand


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2.     10/24/07 - 5:34 PM
Anonymous

Not to diminish the horrible physical altercation you experienced, which is a revolting reflection on the thugs involved, but I think honesty would dictate that you mention that you (in addition to Naomi Ragen and the others) are one of the individuals who have brought the Mehadrin bus issue to the courts.

I don't blame you for your hurt and bitterness- you would be a saint not to feel that way. If you felt you needed to take steps to abolish Mehadrin buses because of a horrific incident that took place on a Non-Mehadrin bus, that is your choice.

May you only have brachos and gezunt always.


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3.     10/24/07 - 5:49 PM
Anonymous

"It has been brought to my attention a few times that the arbitrary decision by the #2 bus riders to make this line Mehadrin was instituted as a response to the horrific bombing on this line a few years prior. In an effort to provide more physical protection, it was decided to increase the spiritual value of tznius – and its inherent protection – by implementing a separate seating arrangement.

Increasing our shmira in our mitzvah observance in the wake of tragedy is unarguably commendable to the highest degree."

I disagree that it is commendable to copy Arabs in tznius as a way of increasing zchusim. I think it is a perverse idea. I am copying part of a comment I left on the "They do not represent us" article:

A main, underemphasized reason that there are increased numbers leaving is that people make a connection between Islam and Judaism, and question all religion. Islamic violence is in the news, and Islam is partly modeled on Judaism and has similarities with it, and as a community, we have not stressed that we are different and more balanced and dracheha darchei noam.

Instead, we have a spate of claims that the z'chus of Arabs is tznius - the same tznius that leads to beating of women in the Arab streets. The line Ms Shear rode on decided to segregate because there was a terrorist attack on the line, and they decided they needed the extra zchus of tznius to counteract the alleged zchus of the Muslims. A book on tznius is now used in batei yaakov that calls for an increasingly rigid dress code, based on all manner of subjective judgements, and what does the author say? That we need a new higher standard in tznius to compete with the Muslims.

(Incidentally, chazal see yishmaelim as mushka bearayos - I wonder how it is that scientific claims that contradict chazal must be rejected, but we dont accept chazal's sociological observations about arabs and instead hold them up as models of tznius?)

The skeptical hassidic blogs are full of questions on just how, exactly, are we different than the taliban other than that our murder rate is lower? Are men making decisions for and controlling women? How many women really want to sit in the back of the bus? How can men even see if pregnant women are standing if they are sitting up in front so as not to see them - no wonder the press keeps reporting that there are women standing when there are empty seats in the mens section. Do you not see how instances like these, in which men make clear they will hit women to get them to sit in the back, lead people to question whether the religion is really sexist and patriarchical? When there are so many issues the haredim want to press in Israel, ranging from shabbat to support for talmud torah to shmitta, can they really afford to alienate even other torah observant Jews with separate seating on public buses? This makes people question everything from the judgement of the powers that be that run haredi society to the core of the religion. One act of violence isn't what makes people skeptical. It's a general sense of unease with the environment that makes people question.

People also want to know how it is that gedolim from R Chaim Shmuelevitz to RSZA rode mixed buses, but suddenly separate sections are needed. Pesticides may change the metzius with bugs, but how is it that so many halachot have changed, so that we now need to enforce separate seating and no denim skirts and no "Bright colors" with violence, when none of these things were unacceptable as little as fifteen years ago? ....

Leadership would be to say: We don't care what Muslims do, we do what Jews do. Tznius also includes not insisting at every opportunity that your way is better and frummer and imposing it on others. But whatever we do, we certainly don't hit people!!"

There are other comments on the issue of copying Arabs (or Conservative Xians ftm) from other posters in that thread, including Yardena.


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4. Well said, Mrs. Shear     10/24/07 - 5:52 PM
Barak - amksheoref@gmail.com

Thanks for posting this! And thank you to Rabbi Horowitz for allowing the post on his site. This was a wonderful essay. Too bad it will mostly fall on deaf ears, assuming there are people in that world who will actually listen to it.


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5. RESPONSE TO POSTER #2 - FROM MIRIAM SHEAR     10/24/07 - 6:31 PM
Miriam Shear - imahawk@aol.com

You wrote: "I think honesty would dictate that you mention that you (in addition to Naomi Ragen and the others) are one of the individuals who have brought the Mehadrin bus issue to the courts."

RESPONSE: I am NOT one of the petitioners. I only filed an affidavit with the court attesting to the incident of November 24, 2006. The petitioners share the common denominator of being harrassed and intimidated while riding MEHADRIN buses. Because I was on a NON-Mehadrin bus, I was excluded from filing the petition. I hope this clears up your misunderstanding of the situation.


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6.     10/24/07 - 6:38 PM
Anonymous

So Naomi Ragen was harrassed on a Mehadrin bus?


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7. Important Post     10/24/07 - 6:40 PM
Baruch Horowitz - Brooklyn, NY - borhowitz@yahoo.com

Thanks for posting. It's important that there should be internal community forums, such as this one, which discuss the issue.


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8. what can we do?     10/24/07 - 7:01 PM
Nechama

Obviously, we "chutzniks" (non-Israelis) don't find any sense of fun in torching and smoking and beating people for our supposed principles.....

And some Israelis do seem to. And others, of course, don't.

But we are like two separate camps. I guess if we would complain, to their insigators, they'd just say "You don't understand". Which is quite true.

So what's the point in complaining? Does anyone have an open line in communication?

Can we drop leaflets in the local language from helicopters to advise people that what their instigators recommend is bad for them?

But there is hope. I want to tell about something else sad that happened in RBS recently - but with a better ending. Unfortunately, some Meshugana person(or several?) of the type described above decided that a certain woman had to be banned from the community. They dropped papers 'screaming' about her all over the streets, in the dark night hours.

The local Cheder instructed the boys from the top classes (age 10-11), to gather all the offending and offensive leaflets, and made a big bonfire to burn them.

That's the end of the story. There is opposition to Meshuganas, even in (especially in?) RBS. May it grow.


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9. Public Efforts or Private?     10/24/07 - 7:30 PM
Baruch Horowitz - Brooklyn, NY - borhowitz@yahoo.com

"So what's the point in complaining? Does anyone have an open line in communication?...Can we drop leaflets in the local language from helicopters to advise people that what their instigators recommend is bad for them? "

I have considered whether the issue needs to be addressed publicly, or if behind-the -scenes shtadlanus(advocacy) is the way to go, and Kannoim should be stopped through less public efforts. However, if the latter would be done, people will say that we are not doing enough, since they are not apprised of efforts being made.

Perhaps there could be an interactive session with rabbonim and lay leaders, where people can debate, ask questions and offer suggestions, given that the issue is as important as any other community issue to Klal Yisrael and Kvod Shomayim.

Americans can put pressure which will help those who wish to thwart the zealots, but there is a need to harness that collective power and work with the rabbonim in Israeli community.


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10. ... unless by leadership you meant social manipulation, and by frummer you meant spineless conformity     10/24/07 - 7:33 PM
still wonderin'

"Leadership would be to say: We don't care what Muslims do, we do what Jews do. Tznius also includes not insisting at every opportunity that your way is better and frummer and imposing it on others. But whatever we do, we certainly don't hit people!!"

The sentiment is true. But unfortunately, today, there are no chareidi leader. Only ban-leaders.

That means the only people left to stand up to say "enough is enough" are you and me. And since no one is listening to me, good luck!


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11. Kikar Shabbos     10/24/07 - 8:37 PM
Fed Up

History: This shameful conduct can be traced back to the violent protests, instigated and defended by most “gedolim,” which led to the shabbos closing of streets in charedi neighborhoods.

I posit that our hashkofo dictates we not forcibly interfere with our neighbors’ choice of life style. Brutality naturally follows abuse of power.

I suggest the city open the streets to traffic and allow the busses run on shabbos and yom tov. Draft them to army service so they can do their part for the country they so despise. Perhaps this will teach these misguided chossid shoytas a little humility.


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12.     10/24/07 - 11:41 PM
test

testing


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13. Mrs Schear is a disgrace to Yiddishkeit     10/24/07 - 11:47 PM
Baruch Feldman

Dear Rabbi Horowitz,

No way can I sit back and watch this hatchet and slander job being jackhammered onto our Charedi brothers without voicing a loud protest.

The dishonesty displayed here by Mrs Schear is very telling. She was by no means an innocent victim. From her original public letter:

On several occasions, both men and women have stopped by my seat and asked me to move to the back of the bus. I have politely - and firmly - refused this "invitation".

Not once, not twice, but several times, she was asked by men (plural) and women (plural) to please respect the wish of the passengers and to sit (not stand, but to simply relocate her seat) among the other women in the rear.

Rabbi Horowitz, take note! Even the WOMEN asked her to relocate, not just the men!!

Yet, she stubornly refused to adhede to their request, and rather insisted on her "right" [sic] to sit where she chooses.

Is that what Yiddishkeit is all about? To consistantly ignore requests from other well meaning Yidden who seek to uphold higher standards of Kedusha and to be more concerned about her own rights? I'm appalled that a so called "Frum woman" could have acted in such a selfish and un-jewish way.


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14. We need to note:     10/25/07 - 2:05 AM
David Weingarden - Detroit, Michigan

Talmud Yerushalmi Yuma 4b and Talmud Bavli Yuma 9b together state that the roof of the First Temple was destroyed and we were exiled for 70 years for the sins of murder, incest, and idol worship. During the Second Temple, even though the Jews were diligent in the study of Torah, were zealous in the keeping of the mitzvos, and the Jews had fine manners (or were practicers of kindness), the Temple was destroyed to its utter foundation ("Strip her, strip her to her utter foundations" Ps.137:7) and we are exiled for over a thousand years, solely because of the sin of causeless hatred.

One has to wonder, how could they have been practicers of kindness, well mannered, yet at the same time be guilty of Sinas Chinam?

Remember that Chazal has taught us that "Anyone who lives in a generation that the Temple does not exist in, it is as if it was destroyed in their generation. Look around us and see people who perform unbelievable acts of kindness and are well mannered...to their own kind, like the treif "Chasida" bird. Yet hateful and cruel to those who are not of their kind.

It is this very lack of respect for others, lack of tolerance for those different, combined with the misplaced haughtiness of sadly mistaken self-righteousness, that is the very cause of the destruction of our holy Bais Hamikdash and the repeated destruction of our very communities.

Enough is enough. Klall Yisroel needs to focus first and foremost on learning the halachos of mitzvos Bein Adam L'Chaveiro and then start practicing chumros in Bein Adam L'Chaveiro. For this is where our true weakness has been ever since the first nuclear Jewish family, the sale of Yosef by his own brothers. This is the breach that needs to be repaired first.


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15. I agree     10/25/07 - 4:39 AM
Yaakov - Beit Shemesh

Since I live in Beit Shemesh, and though I just read about it and never witnessed such an incident, I am utterly ashamed and flabbergasted by the bus incident and the disrespect and violence shown towards the woman and soldier. The same soldier who is protecting their very lives is treated like dirt by these utter hypocrites.

I have lived for awhile, and never did I think the jewish community would need a 'civil rights' movement until now. Of course all we really need is to actually follow our Torah, which says beating people is wrong unless in self-defense. 'Tznius' is not self-defense. But until all these am haaretzim get educated I think some civil rights agitation is in order.

I remember learning from Rav Yitzchak Shurin the following principle at a talk. In general jews must judge other jews lekav zchut. but in the case of a Zealot, there is no such requirement. The reason we are not required to judge a zealot lekav zchut is that it is so incredibly difficult to be a 'zealot of truth' - one who acts PURELY for the right motives and not for ulterior motives. I am NOT don lekav zchut on these crazy haredi zealots. It is so obvious they are acting out of misbalanced, shameful internal motives. I saw we throw them in jail or better yet - what is the proper Torah punishment for assault? I'm not sure, does anyone know? Is it 39 lashes? Maybe we should lash them in public for their betrayal of our Torah and their massive Chilul Hashem, at the international level. G-d willing our holy Rabbis will all stand up and make their leadership known.

Yaakov


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16. Hitting another Jew     10/25/07 - 6:23 AM
Yardena - EY

I am appalled anew each time I read about Mrs. Shear's horrible experience, and I wish her only the best.

In addition to what everyone else has said about incidences like these being an indication of a wicked heart rather than pure-intentioned zealotry, I think we need to recognize the very serious boundaries that one needs to cross in order to behave so violently.

First of all, most normal men cannot conceive of hitting a woman, particularly an older woman who is, as Mrs. Shear said, twice as old as he is. Such a woman too closely resembles female figures he's been conditioned to love, serve, and respect such as his own mother, aunts, etc. That of course, is true of non-Jewish culture, all the more so in frum culture. In frum culture, we of course have very serious taboos against hitting at all and also against harming anyone weaker than us. What's more, respect for anyone older than us, even only a little older, is strongly emphasized. These values can be found in any 5-year-old's daf kesher, depending on the parasha, they are so intrinsic to our religion.

Furthermore, most victims of physical abuse are NOT silent at the time of the abuse! They emit anguished cries of pain, they make pained facial expressions, they bleed, etc. It takes a very cold heart to be able to ignore such reactions.

One last point: Because it occured in public, the perpetrators were obviously confident that: A) No one would stop them, and they wouldn't have to suffer negative consequences later. Or B) They would be able to overcome anyone who WOULD try to stop them. Or C) Regardless of what would happen to them, either immediately or later, beating Mrs. Shear was worth it. It's all very twisted, and they should be (and should have been then) proven wrong on all accounts.

These "charedim" who beat Mrs. Shear were somehow able to overcome tremendous natural barriers in order to hurt her. It chills me to think what happened to them during the course of their life that made it so easy for them to overcome so many barriers to barbaric behavior. They are obviously totally sick and must've experienced some very sick parenting or schooling, which ultimately goes back to the root of the problem Rabbi Horowitz is trying to solve: unhealthy chinuch.

I am totally flabbergasted by those who stood by. I think we really are becoming desensitized.


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17. Perhaps she should have moved?     10/25/07 - 9:33 AM
Har-avhag-aon

If I had been on that bus, I would've been nauseated by the disgusting treatment at the hands of overzealous bullies who need an intense course on dealing with people (especially fellow Yidden). Even so, I would've begged the woman, in the face of such overbearing antagonism, to please move and save herself! Are we so sure it's worth our physical well being to prove points, even if truth is on our side? You might think if we back down, we'll be humiliated and everyone else will regard us as shmatas and lose respect...The Torah teaches us it's not true, sometimes we must give in, especially when there's a potential of violence. Yes, it's hard to take that avoiding mackloches would go so far as to denigrate ourselves in front of such disgusting people...but in the end, we know we're right, and our noses are still intact. Then we can write blogs until our fingers fall off, and try to change things and bring attention. But really, sometimes it's just not worth it. [It's nice to have a place where one can express his (probably unpopular ) opinions.]


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18.     10/25/07 - 10:25 AM
yoni

what the girls need to do is carry tazers and or mace in order to protect themselves from this kind of assault, and so to people are frum enough to recognize that this is not proper behavior, so that if they see a girl getting bullied, they can simple tazer or mace the bully, and get him turned in to the authorities.

oh, and btw, in our times the punishment for assault is to be handed over to the secular government for prosecution, as well as put in cherem. (in a time when we cannot give malkos or death penalty, there is a mitzvah to hand over criminals to the secular courts in order to protect out communities.)


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19. Kudos to all     10/25/07 - 10:50 AM
David - Silver Spring

Kudos to Mrs. Shear for writing the article adn to Rabbi Horowitz for publishing it. Frankly, I've seen so much of Orthodox Judaism headed off in the direction of the loony-tunes who threw Mrs. Shear a beating for not adopting their ad hoc chumras that I've become almost completely disgusted. Rabbi Horowitz' willingness to confront these issues (without blaming the victim) gives me a faint glimmer of hope.


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20. Disgusted by the treatment og Ms Shear     10/25/07 - 12:49 PM
Andrea - Toronto, Ont

I am disgusted by the treatment of Ms Shear. I applaud her bravery in refusing to move. I am not sure I would have been so brave. If the men are so afraid of contamination let them sit at the back of the bus or let them stand. This is reminiscent of the southern United States & Rosa Parkes' refusal to move to the back of the bus.

It shouldn't matter how many men or women asked her to move. The only disgrace to Yiddshkeit was that she was asked to move & was beaten for not moving. The man or men who did this & encourage their children to do likewise or those that burn stores or garbage or throw bleach are doing a Chillul Hashem.

Explain to me how this is any different than the actions of fundamentalist Muslims we are so fond of berating.

By their actions they will turn non religious Jews further away from Judaism & will alienate those Orthodox Jews who don't follow their Chumras. If we wish to merit the coming of the Moshiach we have to respect others & welcome them into our homes not drive them away.

Thank you Rabbi Horowitz for posting this.

Andrea


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21. Millions for defense, Not one cent for tribute!!!     10/25/07 - 12:57 PM
David Willig - daw0416412@cs.com

NO one has the right to tell me what to do. Miriam Shear was sitting in a seat, as she was entitled to. What right did anyone have to ask her to move? And why should she concede a thing to terrorists? Yes terrorists because that is what these hoodlums are. If I was the soldier on the Beit Shemesh bus, I would have used my weapon. Hakom l'horgechah Hashkeim v'horgo. We are not Christians who believe in turning the other cheek. Misogyny is not a Jewish value. There is obvious social and psychological implications to being condemned to the back of the bus. Have you noticed that never have the men offered to move to the rear and reserve the front for the women? Any one care to guess why that is? BTW the source for this problem is a system that forces people to follow a path, of learning full time and not working, that does not suit them. People want to feel that they are succesful. Since many people are not succesful at learning, they look to be succesful at something. Some pick Hafganot, demonstrations and physical violence. You don't have to be a talmid chacham to beat up a lady, you don't even have to be strong and brave, not if you have 5 friends with you. But you can then go home and be proud of yourself for your great accomplishment. The entire system should be torn down. Everyone should serve in the army to be eligible for any form of government assistance. Let the chareidim form their own heser groups, but no army service, no government aid. Maybe they can get financial assistance from their friends in Iran and Saudi Arabia, whose values they follow.


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22.     10/25/07 - 1:07 PM
Yehoshua

To Boruch Feldman #13,

So in your world is it ok to attack somebody for insisting on their rights to sit in their seat?

She could have moved and avoided the problem, but this is a minor issue compared to the tremendous chillul Hashem of the rashim who attacked her!

Take your blinders off and look at the whole picture!


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23. Taking a stand     10/25/07 - 1:11 PM
AK

Quote

Perhaps she should have moved? Har-avhag-aon But really, sometimes it's just not worth it.

I see things rather differently If I was there ,I am not sure if I would have had the mesiras nefesh,strength of character , and a passionate belief in Torah values to make a stand. And after the incident Mrs Shear acknowleges similar people ' Some of these people have done so at great risk to their personal and professional reputations within their own communities.

There are people who rise up to the occassion and don't think about saving their skin, Mrs Shear is one of them , and I can tell you , there are not too many around


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24.     10/25/07 - 1:15 PM
Yehoshua

For: Har-avhag-aon #17

Do you really think she knew her refusal would result in an attack?? Perhaps today we are wiser, but then this bus attacking was a new and shocking thing.

Don't blame the victim!


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25. Shtika K'hoda-ah! Silence is essentially a vote in favour!     10/25/07 - 1:23 PM
Anonymous - nsbigbad@3web.net

That a few "hot head" so called Chareidi hooligans have gone overboard with phoney "chumrahs" is disguting and shameful,but trully is not the real issue here. Looking at the big picture the problem is the silence of the Chareidi man/woman in the street who by saying nothing,i.e not actively putting these people in their place, are just as resposible or perhaps more responsible for the current "shtoos" and sinas chinam that has reared its ugly head throughout Israeli society.As for the Chareidi rabbis-- uunfortunately they are acting no different than most clerical leaders today-- (Some text deleted by admin). WAKE UP - Only a full 180 degree about face with a complete honest approach full of love of torah with DERECH ERETZ together with 100% application of the priciples of AHAVAS YISROEL, will create a time that the coming of Moshiach will be possible!


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26. How it's possible.     10/25/07 - 2:26 PM
BaalHabos - baalhabos@gmail.com

>These "charedim" who beat Mrs. Shear were somehow able to overcome tremendous natural barriers in order to hurt her. It chills me to think what happened to them during the course of their life that made it so easy for them to overcome so many barriers to barbaric behavior

Good question. Think of how is it that the Nazis felt no compunction about killing children. I am not comparing these "charedim" to Nazis. I'm just using that as an example. The answer is that the target of the aggression must have been in some way "Dehumanized" or cast out as an other. The same here. For these men to strike a woman, especially a frum woman, means that women such as Mrs. Shear, have been in the minds of the perpetrators, have been cast out as an other. This does not happen in isolation and is indicative of what is going on in that society. Disgraceful


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27. What would Avrahum do?     10/25/07 - 3:17 PM
ASK - Memphis


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28. to admin: re respect     10/25/07 - 3:33 PM
Anonymous

I thought comments like those in #25 were not allowed on this blog?


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29. What would Avrahum Avinu do?     10/25/07 - 4:00 PM
ASK

As we read the parshiot about the kindness of Avrahum Avinu to complete strangers and how he davened, nae begged for the salvation of Sdom and Amora and contrast that with the behavior of these "charadei fruma yidden", there is a total disconnect. Have we learned nothing in 2,000 years since the churban? What Torah are these men studying all day and all night? Not the one that I'm learning and trying to instill in my children and me. The Torah that we study strongly forbids embarrassing, humiliating, or physically abusing another person much less another Jew. Avrahum Avinu is probably crying bitter tears witnessing the actions of these, hopefully few, chareidim zealots. It is time to take a stand. Enough is really enough. We have so many goyim around us that want to do real harm to us. Let's not help them by destroying ourselves from within with this unbelievable sina.

Thank you to Rav Horowitz for showing exceptional leadership by giving this problem a platform from which to be heard. May Hashem bless your efforts.


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30. To # 28     10/25/07 - 4:04 PM
Anonymous

#25 is mild in comparison to many others on this blog. Sadly, it has lost my respect.

It's a shame that something that can potentially do so much good has degenerated into one of the typical blog crowd- not sure why we need another blog discussing how Charedi life and leaders are basically trash.

A pity.


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31. What should bystanders do?     10/25/07 - 4:42 PM
Nechama

I was once a bystander in a bus as a (seemingly) Chareidi man was rude to a woman on a Mehadrin bus line who refused to move seats. I suppose her refusal was rude too, being that she had chosen to travel on a Mehadrin line, but we tend to consider shouting and male aggession as much worse than female passive aggression.

Perhaps I should have got involved, but I was right at the back of the bus, and remember, a bus is not a big room, it is a cramped place with people and seats in the way. By the time I realized what had happened, it was over. Did I know what exactly had transpired? Who was at fault? Did the men really know what was flying? "Oh, please", you might say, "they can hear the guy shouting. The men there should have gotten involved". True, but not all men (while balancing a small child and a tray of kugel) are natural peacemakers that they can step in and sort out a problem effectively. Let's assume that the right action is to scream at the perpetrator (the man who is shouting at the woman). How is this going to help? Is it all to be resolved in a fistfight between one gallant neighboring man who doesn't even know how it all started, and the offender?

This would be rather stupid, because we have just been asserting that violence should not be tolerated. Well, it is not teaching that lesson if we teach it with violence.

I think that a viable Mehadrin line has to have its helm a driver or his assistant whose job is to gently but firmly insist that women move to their assigned seats. The viable Mehadrin line also has at its helm a strong male, who possibly doubles as the driver, who steps in if in any males are verbally abusive to any females. This person should have police authority to slap heavy fines on violaters of the Mehadrin policy, men and women. And as to what the Mehadrin policy is (should be):

a) Buses are arranged so that men sit in one portion and women in the other. For men to not have to view possible untzniusdik or nursing women, it is advisable that men sit in the front and women in the back.

b) The first five rows of seats are allocated for men, all the rest are allocated for women. The middle two rows may be filled with men if there are no women on the bus. The seats should be marked clearly according to their status. At each stop, the men in these intermediate seats must check if women have arrived and if there is seating for them, if not, the men must stand. Although the usual rule is first-come first served on non-Jewish buses, since this is a Mehadrin bus, extra Middos are observed by saving these middle seats primarily for woman. IN addition it is recognized that it is less seemly for women to stand than for men to, that they are likely to be having a harder life than men (emotionally, and internally), and that they would find it difficult to ask a man for his seat if she felt she needed it. Also, women being often slimmer and kinder than men would be willing to sit 5 to a seat (including two women and three kids) so that the other woman shouldn't have to stand. Yet it is not right of the men to permit this great overcrowding, even if they happened to get on the bus at an earlier stop and thus feel entitled to a seat. Hence this courtesy.

c) Mehadrin bus organizations should be sending more buses to reduce overcrowding. For some lines this is a TERRIBLE problem, with almost no solution from the passengers' point of view. The squishiness that the passengers have to tolerate is undescribable. Tempers are very easily frayed.

d) Notices should be posted on the outside, near the door, that this is a Mehadrin bus, and includes a shortened form of the rules:

Ascent to the bus means you agree.

No sitting in the front five or back five rows by people of the wrong gender.

The middle few rows are reserved for later ascending women.

No verbal or physical abuse to the opposite sex.

The driver noticing disobedience of the rules will appeal to the other other passengers to help restore order. If the driver is unsuccessful, he should file a police complaint, subjecting the offender to a 400 shekel fine, or 800 if any violence (obviously a sentence if warranted). In addition, the driver should not drive until disobedience ceases.

A successful Mehadrin line will have all these rules clear. Vagueness does not excuse aggression, but it can contribute. Clarity can restore order to a volatile situation.


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32. how to reach them     10/25/07 - 4:46 PM
Nechama

I really think that it is important that the outrageous behavior should be cut off at its source. Particularly the written word is very strong, so if publications lend any implicity or explicit support to this type of behavior, the publications should be publicly banned. Without a framework, the "Kanaus" could die a faster death.

Also, in a counter move, the Yated is published and distributed weekly for free across the whole Orthodox country. Does anyone want to sponser a regular advertisement denouncing this behavior, explaining why is wrong, and suggesting a counter response if it occurs?


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33.     10/25/07 - 5:58 PM
aa

Actually Nechama, mehadrin busses run by Egged should simply be made illegal. If you want to keep crazy chumras, you're more then welcome to, but not on the government shekel.

Organize your own public transport with seperate busses for men and women for all I care.


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34. Mehadrin school in Emanuel     10/25/07 - 7:05 PM
AK

Hi, A Beis Ya'akov school is now mehadrin , a barrier now seperates Sefardi girls from their spiritually higher Askenazi peers where in the past they grew up and learned together.

The media had a great time on the issue.


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35.     10/25/07 - 7:14 PM
Anonymous

"a) Buses are arranged so that men sit in one portion and women in the other. For men to not have to view possible untzniusdik or nursing women, it is advisable that men sit in the front and women in the back."

excuse me, but why are women nursing on a public bus? Surely you cannot suggest with a straight face that this is some kind of improvement in tznius and derech eretz, especially since you also suggest that men in the middle seats should look to see if there are women standing. Do men not get on the bus? Are there no windows? And even on an all women bus, is this derech eretz, barring emergency?


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36.     10/25/07 - 7:19 PM
Anonymous

"A successful Mehadrin line will have all these rules clear."

the rules for successful mehadrin bus lines are sufficiently complicated that they will predictably lead to problems and they should be banned for public buses. On private lines, people can do as they please, since it's their choice.


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37. Jewish males, not Jewish men     10/26/07 - 12:11 AM
Yoel B

I looked in vain for a comment on the following sentence from Mrs. Shear's article: Every night, yeshivas were letting their students out to riot in the streets. I was in Berkeley in the 1960s when university professors breached their professional responsibilities and sided with the rioters. It was a terrible blow to society and its institutions; that betrayal is still reverberating today. I am appalled that older males--I cannot call them "men"-- whose duty it is to inculcate and the Torah and act as examples of what it teaches should turn their charges loose on the innocent. Do these "rebbes" and their superiors still have their jobs? If they do, it does not bode well.


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38. I am totally horrified     10/26/07 - 1:45 AM
Anonymous

While the treatment of Mrs. Shear was horrible. This is not about rights it's about a woman who wanted to prove a point that ppl had no right to put her in the back of the bus. She admits in this article to have realized that there were going to be some heated exchanges.

I for one have a good mind to call and petition Egged myself for mehadrin busses where men sit on one side and women sit on the other. However, the driver should be on alert for any altercations. ANYBODY who fights on the bus should be immediately kicked off!!!!


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39. public buses     10/26/07 - 2:43 AM
Nechama

Re: Nursing on Public Buses. Remember that the buses discussed are intercity buses, and nursing babies have a right to be nursed, if arrangements can be made that the mother is not seated right opposite a man. Windows are sufficiently high to permit this. Yes she should still do it Tzniusdikly.

Re: Public Buses. The Mehadrin lines were always intended to be a PRIVATE venture, but EGGED insisted on thwarting this. They chose to introduce Mehadrin lines where none existed before, in order to get a greater share of the market. Now many of the Mehadrin lines have had to close, as they could not compete.

In Beitar, the bus company is run not by Egged, and is arranged by the Charedi municipality. As such, it is organized to be Mehadrin.

Back and front is a symbolism for unfairness and inequality because the blacks were treated like that and forced to sit in the back. But we don't have to view it that way. Separateness is not intrinsically bad, even if it is new.

The only dangerous aspect is when people see everything as black and white (or red). When a woman insists in sitting in the men's area, they see red! and start fighting. They should introduce some more colors to their view, and a variety of tools to their arsenal. It's not about tolerance it's about effectiveness.


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40. Baruch Feldman's comments     10/26/07 - 10:39 AM
Andy - Wesley Hills, NY

While I commend you, Mr. Feldman, for using your name, I am sorely disappointed by your polite, but brazen, remarks. In your view one is not innocent unless they satisfy any and all requests by anybody, under any circumstances. After all, it is normal for most bystanders to encourage someone about to get in trouble (they saw it coming; she didn't) to give in and avoid a potential beating. That doesn't make the requestors right.

In fact, one is innocent unless one has committed a indiscretion. Mrs. Shear certainly did not. People are not required to do things just because they are asked to do so by many people.

Your assumptions about her "simply moving" and your placement of the adjectives "stubbornly refused" indicate a certain simplicity on your part to the human condition. I assume you are in your early 20's, as that's how I was when I was younger. I wish you well; but you owe her an apology. There's no better place to do it than on this site, and there's no better time than now.


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41. brouhaha?!     10/26/07 - 10:55 AM
Anonymous

Every night, yeshivas were letting their students out to riot in the streets.

And what happened as a result? The Gay Pride (sic) parade was thwarted. Months later, when certain leaders decided not to take to the streets in protest, the parade went on.

Why is it referred to in the article as a "'gay pride'brouhaha"? Brouhaha?! How about protests against pride in behavior that the Torah calls abominable, behavior that brought on the Flood, against the flaunting of deliberate transgression of the King's prohibitions right there in His palace? Brouhaha?!

Why are these protests against explicit Torah prohibitions mentioned in the same breath as burning down someone's store, ruining people's clothes, and violence over supposed tznius infractions?

boys as young as 8 and 9 running through the streets setting anything within their reach on fire

I don't question their teachers, since they aren't in yeshiva at that hour anyway. I question their PARENTS.


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42. "brouhaha"     10/26/07 - 11:52 AM
Miriam Shear - imahawk@aol.com

To "Anonymous" #41: The term "brouhaha" is used to describe TACTICS used to protest, not the right and responsibility to protest over an abominal gay parade. Because I protest being beaten up on a bus, I would not further my cause by burning trash in the streets, overturning cars, and burning down stores. Very few of us would disagree that such an abomination parade should indeed be condemned. The only issue is HOW to do it. FYI - the Gerrer Rebbe publicly condemned the yeshivas who let their students out to riot. The wise Rebbe took the position that this should not even be discussed with the students; rather, the best antidote was to stay in yeshiva and learn Torah and to daven that the parade not take place. The "gay" community won much sympathy for their cause by pointing to the "religion" of street riots. That's the point that was made by using the word "brouhaha".


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43. To Baruch Feldman and others with lower standards of Kedusha     10/26/07 - 1:53 PM
Jer

Please be advised that I have decided that even the strictest Chareidi standards of tznius are no longer acceptable. From now on, I and my enforcers will insist that all females from the age of six weeks and up be covered from head to toe with not even the face visible (clothing known to our Muslim betters as a burka). If we should notice any women not adhering to our higher standards of kedusha, we will of course warn them first (possibly even nicely). If they refuse to give in, however, we will be forced to beat them mercilessly (perhaps, as a hidur mitzvah, with a weapon). Please warn your wife and children and any other female relatives you may have, and thank you so much for providing me with a rationale for my planned actions!


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44. Rabbi Horowitz - a question for you?     10/26/07 - 2:51 PM
Mark

Is this:

""Please be advised that I have decided that even the strictest Chareidi standards of tznius are no longer acceptable. From now on, I and my enforcers will insist that all females from the age of six weeks and up be ...If they refuse to give in, however, we will be forced to beat them mercilessly (perhaps, as a hidur mitzvah, with a weapon). Please warn your wife and children and any other female relatives you may have, and thank you so much for providing me with a rationale for my planned actions!"

an example of:

the governing principles of this website – to help effect positive change through the candid discussions of the real issues we collectively face,????

At what point does it cease being a productive discussion and just another Hareidi bashfest? Are you of the belief that comments such as these will generate positive change?


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45.     10/26/07 - 2:52 PM
Anonymous

"Re: Nursing on Public Buses. Remember that the buses discussed are intercity buses, and nursing babies have a right to be nursed, if arrangements can be made that the mother is not seated right opposite a man. Windows are sufficiently high to permit this. Yes she should still do it Tzniusdikly."

There are ordinances in most Western countries against nursing in public and they were fought by FEMINISTS and others who want to say that nursing is "natural" behavior and not a breach of modesty.

Any bus on which women are nursing and men are sitting up front is inherently going to lead to more breaches in tznius than one in which women dont nurse and cannot be described as an improvement in tznius. You simply cannot tell us with a straight face that these buses represent a "higher level" of tznius and are fought for by those who care about modesty, and also tell us that women are nursing in the same enclosed space as lots of men are sitting. They are not an improvement in derech eretz either, I think even among other women on a steady basis.


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46.     10/26/07 - 3:07 PM
Anonymous

"Back and front is a symbolism for unfairness and inequality because the blacks were treated like that and forced to sit in the back. But we don't have to view it that way. Separateness is not intrinsically bad, even if it is new."

1. The seats in the back are worse. That's why pregnant women don't want to sit there, and why other people avoid them too. That's why they put blacks in the back, and not in the front, because the back is worse.

2. It wouldn't matter even if it was only an issue of perception. The haredi world has to be concerned with not making a hilul hashem, and that includes with other Jews - hilul hashem is primarily amongst Jews. Anyone from any sort of Western background is geared to viewing sitting in the back as discrimination. Haredim have to be self-aware, and not do things that needlessly lead people to a negative image of shmiras torah and mitzvos. That is an obligation! We all know how "sitting in the back" plays, and how much it turns people off, and that alone is enough reason for it not to be done.


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47. To Mark     10/26/07 - 3:38 PM
Anonymous

Well, it's definitely attracting all the disgruntled people, and I guess everyone has their own concept of how to effect positive change. Some might think that giving another forum for venting is positive. To each his own.


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48. Understanding Mehadrin Buses     10/27/07 - 4:56 PM
Anonymous

In light of the recent violence on board buses in which attempts were made to separate men and women, I find it necessary to explicate the matter of Mehadrin buses in their broader context. At the outset, let me make it clear that my position is that the violence which took place on the buses is utterly unacceptable and has no place in the value system of a frum Jew. However, there is a need to put forth a reason as to why there is a demand for Mehadrin buses in the first place.

There is no denying the steady decline in dress mores of contemporary society. Dishabille, or worse, is commonplace in the public arena. Such sights present a grave danger to the spiritual well being of our people. R’ Eliyahu Lopian once remarked that one can lose all spiritual achievements of an entire semester of learning in the Yeshiva from one moment of laxity in guarding one’s eyes from seeing what they should not see - and this challenge becomes steadily more difficult to withstand in current times. People who are not so careful as to what their gaze falls upon may find the notion of protecting the eyes from unseemly sights a bit prudish, and the severity of the potential consequences overstated. That is their prerogative. It helps nothing, though, when attempting to understand what is at stake in the minds of the people who are taught that the above statement is the unvarnished, unexaggerated truth.

One arena where the challenge of Shmiras Einayim is particularly difficult is that of public buses - a staple of Israeli life. Even when the threat of being blown to bits is quite real, the number of regular bus travellers suffers virtually no decline, due to the essential, absolute necessity of this mode of transportation. This is particularly true for those sectors of society which are on the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum, for whom other options are simply out of financial reach for any sort of extended period of time. It is for this reason that private Mehadrin buses, where the risk of being confronted with improperly clad women is greatly reduced, were introduced. Eventually, the Egged bus company offered the same Mehadrin service lines for less money, and undercut the competing bus lines.

The value of having Mehadrin bus lines is one which is accepted by Charedi men and women alike. While it is true that there are times that women are inconvenienced by having to sit in the less comfortable section of the bus, these N’shei Chayil are willing to forgo some comfort on the bus for the sake of their husbands’ maintaining their purity of sight and thought. It is impossible to insist that only immodestly dressed females should get on the bus from the rear doors, and the Tzenu’os can sit in the front, and, so, the seating arrangement is as it is. (It should obvious that men seated in the back and women in front does not solve the problem of improperly dressed women boarding the bus in front)

It is also true that some of the great Gedolim of the previous generation, such as Rav Shach, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach. and Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz, rode buses that were mixed seating. However, that does not mean that had the opportunity arose to avoid the problem at similar financial cost, that they would not have opted for implementing it.

R’ Shimshon Pincus ZT”L, a Gadol by anyone’s standard, writes (Nefesh Chayah, pg. 92) - “We live in a generation full of Peritzus, and our hearts burst about everything happening on the street. But how do we really look? Are we really perfect?

Let us give an example: Lately they have begun to implement Mehadrin buses, wherein men and women sit separately. If Hashem will help, and there is no doubt that he will help, in another 15 years, or twenty years, there will only be separate buses in Yerushalayim - buses for men and buses for women.

Let us think for a moment, how will they look at us today? What will they say then - they will tell over with great shock, that twenty years ago 60 people would travel on one bus - Avreichim and Bachurim with Gemaros in their hands, and pious women - all on the same bus!!!

“Terrible!” - that’s what they’ll say - “that’s one of the three cardinal sins!!!”

How come today this doesn’t bother us at all? Because that is what is accepted...

If we - the inner soul of Klal Yisrael, do not strengthen ourselves in holiness and Tznius - for example, it is difficult for us to wait another five minutes for a Mehadrin bus - this harms and influences the entire outer body! The entire Klal Yisrael...

Every once in a while I visit the US, and there I am in the company of our brethren and relatives, the most precious Bnei Torah, important Avreichim and Talmidei Chachamim, But there the concepts are different than in the Holy Land - because that is what is accepted there. I was once travelling in a car, I sat in front and behind me there was a family which gives its children the best Chinuch - and in it was an 11 year old boy. Later on, the 16 year old daughter got into the car with her girlfriend, and she said to her brother - “Say Hi!” (to her girlfriend)... Here in Eretz Yisrael we don’t see such things, but in America it is accepted...

There is no doubt - if in Yerushalayim there will be a strengthening of Tznius, if in Yerushalayim a man and women will not travel together on the same bus- there is no doubt that in New York a sister won’t tell her brother - “Say Hi!”

R’ Yerucham Levovitz ZT”L of Mir told over, that it Kelm, walking on the street was separate - on one side of the street were the men, and on the other side - the women...

More so, if we strengthen ourselves in Tznius, the matter will not just influence those at a distance - but also upon us, ourselves, the strengthening will have great influence. If, for example, we will strengthen ourselves and only travel on Mehadrin lines... the weddings will look different, the stores will be separate, at the Central Bus Station there will be separate lines for men and women - but for this we must be Moser Nefesh! Not to limit ourselves to be meticulous only on what is Mekubal...”

Rav Pincus ZT”L continues:

“... On every bus there might be one of our murderous killers, Hashem should have mercy. We need alot of Divine assistance. And we must know, that Hashem sent us this matter so that we should act with Mesirus Nefesh for the sake of Kedushah!

Chazal have already told us: “In every place where you find immorality, confusion comes to the world which kills good and bad alike.” If we see that good and bad people are getting killed, all we must do is to strengthen ourselves in Tznius! We are at war - not only spiritual, but also physical - a literal war, and we must act accordingly!

...We must know that we are at war, and in war everyone must lend a hand! Even if we do not understand or agree with the announcements - we must fulfill them to the letter. If the doctor said we must take medicine - we take it even if we don’t understand. Because we know it is for our health - for sanctity. If every person is going to be a Baal Deah to say what is correct and what is incorrect - that is the “Beracha” of Eliyahu HaNavi who blessed the people of the city who did not let him into their homes: “May Hashem make you all leaders” (Otzar HaMidrashim pg. 210)

(Responses to the above quotes from Rav Pincus ZT"L should be by quotes from people of similar caliber, not from two-bit nobodies with a keyboard who disagree. Thankfully, Klal Yisrael pays attention to people of Rav Pincus' caliber, not bloggers, so CONSTRUCTIVE dialogue in this context means quoting great people who disagree)

Mrs. Miriam Shear, who was, according to her report, brutally attacked on the Mehadrin buses, had apparently decided to make the Mehadrin bus concept a cause she would combat. By her own account, she was asked multiple times, by men and women, to move, and she refused. It is not clear to me whether the incident on the no. 2 bus, in which she was shamefully beaten, was the first time she had decided to stand firm on her right to sit where she pleased.

While undoubtedly, Mrs. Shear dresses as a Bas Yisrael should, it is totally impractical, as I wrote above, to expect that only non-Tznius women sit in the back. It takes some goodwill, perhaps even some Mesirus Nefesh, and understanding as to the severity of Histaklus which is forbidden, to be willing to save some precious Avreichim and Bachurim from potentially harming their spiritual level. I would hope that if one’s wife was asked to sit in the back of a bus for a half an hour so as to help her husband decrease the odds of a potential transgression of a Torah prohibition, that she would be more than willing to do so.

I would like to pose Mrs. Shear a number of questions: 1) Do you view Mehadrin buses, generally, as a positive thing -as an appropriate response to the #2 bus bombing tragedy? Would you like them abolished? 2) Have you ever refused to move your seat after being politely asked to do so, on a Mehadrin bus? 3) If what triggered your decision to not back down from ‘imposition of Chumros’ was the wanton violence you witnessed in protest of the gay parades, and the bleach attacks, i.e. actual physical violence, why did you choose to stand your ground in an arena which had, until the incident in which you were involved, had gone on without violence? Was this the best way to combat violence - by taking on and provoking what you expected to be heated verbal debates with more people? 4) If what triggered your decision was violence perpetrated by Charedim, why did it “not dawn on you” that that violence, which you apparently felt was a growing problem, would not be the response to your refusal? 5) Did it cross your mind that since the de facto seating arrangement on the bus, until your refusal to change your seat, was Mehadrin, that perhaps the people on the bus were under the false impression that it indeed was a Mehadrin bus, and that even if you insisted that it was not, your refusal to change your seat undermined your credibility?

Thanks for your response.


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49. Tznius?     10/27/07 - 7:20 PM
AK

Hi, An earlier poster felt the problem was the lack of derech eretz, caring , menchslichkeit in general rather than Tznius. And it is the lack of Tznius which allows a person to make demands on others , to be a Tzadik at the expense of others. It is the lack of proportion which also bothers me , the new chumros in areas where people can control other people and this type of control is a form of violence , using power over people. Artificially imposing these standards without people feeling the intrinsic value Tznius is about middos and I certainly won't seperate a family on a bus, seperate a young mother with a couple of young kids from the father because of my spiritual health. It is the lack of menschlichkeit. And that comes up with your comment ' There is no doubt - if in Yerushalayim there will be a strengthening of Tznius, if in Yerushalayim a man and women will not travel together on the same bus- there is no doubt that in New York a sister won’t tell her brother - “Say Hi!”

If Tznius is going to make one less of a mensch , there is something wrong . There are lots of issues , but the ones that make the agenda are usually those that don't require investing in people , chinuch. It is easier to make seperate buses or lines than educate people, it is easier to deal with a ' chinuch problem by putting up a barrier. It is the same line of thinking - divide the Beis Ya'akov school in Emanuel into 2 , put a barrier up so the spiritually superior are not defiled. Derachecha Darchei Noam , ve'chol netivoteha shalom - being a Tzadik at the expense of others and using coercion IMHO is a different derech and certainly not being Tznius


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50. to comment #48     10/27/07 - 7:33 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

The story is told of two of the Baaley Tosfos, one of whom was very careful to always walk with his head down, so as not to see anything unseemly. He was about to walk onto a cart that was being pulled by an ox and a mule together. His brother in law, also one of the baaley tosfot, stopped him. You sre so afraid to look around you, that you almost transgresses a d'oraiso. I have never heard of atime in Jewish history where the Rabbi's called on the community to beat up fellow Jews who do not accept a chumra. Moshe rabbeinu did not ask what chumra was the first Jew not accepting, he said RASHA, wicked one, why do you hit your friend. Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote a t'shuvah allowing riding on subways, despite questions of niddah, let alone of tznius. Riding on the bus is not a mitzvah. If someone feels that he cannot ride on the bus under the conditions set by the bus compzny, let him not ride the bus. He has no right to impose his "tzidkus" on others. Perhaps he should consider emigration to Iran, where the dress code is more to his liking. Israel will be better for his leaving.


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51.     10/27/07 - 9:43 PM
Anonymous

"this type of control is a form of violence , using power over people."

Yes it is. So is the whole tactic of dealing with interlocuters by condescendingly saying "you don't understand why there are mehadrin buses," followed with the author's own opinion, followed with a quote one is not "allowed" to disagree with unless one has another quote, because the people he is debating with are "Two bit nothings"


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52. to Mrs. Shear re the Parade     10/27/07 - 9:47 PM
Anonymous

True, you would not further your cause by burning trash in the street, but as I commented earlier, in comment 41, the mayhem in the streets DID further the cause and the parade did not take place at that time. It was only months later, when certain rabbinic leaders decided that they would NOT take their people to the streets (not even in peaceful protest), after they said they would, that they FAILED and the parade took place. If 250,000 chareidim had taken to the streets, even peacefully, it is likely that the parade would not have taken place since the police could not handle it. How did remaining in yeshiva achieve the goal?

a brouhaha is a hubbub or uproar and again, I don't see the comparison between protesting a public display of abomination and burning down stores and tossing bleach over tznius issues


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53. REPLY TO ANONYMOUS #48     10/27/07 - 10:01 PM
Miriam Shear - imahawk@aol.com

Thank you for the opportunity to answer your questions.

#1. “The Shechina will even rest amongst idol worshipers if there is shalom amongst them.” Any spiritual upsides have been negated by the violent incidents and the resulting chillul Hashem of ugly confrontations. No matter what the goal, if we descend to ill will and hatred amongst ourselves, we all lose.

An increase in shmirah on any MITZVAH is a proper response to any kind of tragedy. Mehadrin buses are not a mitzvah – they are a chumra. The mitzvot that were violated here was the striking and public humiliation of another Jew that violated several Torah prohibitions - not that I refused to sit separate on what was a NON-Mehadrin bus.

Because the incidence of violence on buses seems to be increasing, it is necessary to suspend the Mehadrin buses from the PUBLICLY RUN venue. I think it would be a wonderful service in the PRIVATE sector for those who prefer separate seating arrangements and would spare all of us this ugliness and chillul Hashem.

#2. I have NEVER refused to move my seat on a MEHADRIN bus. Please keep in mind that this bus was NOT Mehadrin.

#3. Your question makes certain suppositions that are totally inaccurate, i.e, “by taking on and provoking”. I had only one interest at 4:30 a.m. – get to the Kotel HaKatan and daven by neitz. I very much disliked what came to be the expected encounter – whether polite or not – of being asked to move. The one being provoked was me, not them. They all KNEW it was a NON-Mehadrin bus when THEY got on it; they KNEW it was a PUBLIC bus; they KNEW they could petition Egged to make it Mehadrin – they chose not to. If, after refusing to move after 2 or 3 requests, I think that the mentchlikeit thing to do would be to stop asking. So, who provoked whom?

#4. Never once did I expect violence over a seating arrangement. These were people getting up at 4 a.m. to daven neitz at the Kotel. Would I expect such people with such mesiras nefesh, with so much love for HaKodesh Baruch Hu, engage in such behavior? Would such people spit in a woman’s face? Kick her in the face? Punch and slap her? Over a seat??? When I first mentioned to a few people that I had been assaulted in Israel, they thought I had been attacked in the Moslem Quarter by Arabs where they knew I would daven everyday. Nobody expected that it would be Jews – frum Jews yet!

Let me ask you this: Do you think that the man who started the brawl by spitting in my face expected that I would just “take it”? That it would not receive any reaction? Would most people think that they can spit in someone else’s face with impunity??? So, who provoked the violence – the woman sitting in her seat reading her Aneini or the man who spat in her face?

#5. The people on the bus were very well aware that it was not an official Mehadrin bus. Furthermore, there were several other women who had also attempted to sit with and behind me. They were bullied and intimidated into moving to the back. One woman was physically picked up and moved. This only strengthened my resolve and determination to not move as long as this bus was not designated a Mehadrin bus by Egged. After leaving the Kotel each morning, the same bus would fill up with MIXED seating with even the neitz riders from earlier that morning sitting mixed. Obviously, they most certainly knew it was a non-Mehadrin bus.

I hope this answers your questions. Now, some comments of my own:

I am in total agreement with you that we live in a world where the lack of tznius in dress is very much “in our face” wherever we go. My son’s yeshiva is adjacent to a lot that now has apartments being constructed with a large billboard sporting a very attractive woman. I simply take the “back route” to limit his exposure to these kinds of images. I don’t burn the sign down. I limit his trips to the mall because of the pritzus there. Will I protect him completely? Not unless he never leaves our home. That is galus. All I can do is limit his exposure – but without trampling the rights of others or imposing my values on them. At some point, one has to ALSO train their son to be an “ish kodesh” – which only happens after one learns self-control. The making of a tzaddik is not only avoiding everything unholy; it is also learning how to build and maintain self-control when confronted with the tumah of the world. Avraham Avinu not only left the Shechina – he turned his back on It to run after what he thought could be idol worshippers! (see Medrash Yehonatan to Breishit, R. Yonatan Eibshutz). Granted, none of us are Avraham Avinus today – but that does not mean we should not follow his example and strive to be like him and other tzaddikim.

While many travails have been traced to a decline in tznius, we must not forget that the concept of tznius involves more than one’s manner of dress. Tznius also means the inner comportment and demeanor of the individual: one should be somewhat self-effacing; humble; not loud; not demanding; content with what one has; not out to impress others with their material OR spiritual successes; etc. Tznius can also be defined as not having a sense of entitlement. For anyone to go into any public venue on publicly funded transportation and DEMAND of other passengers that they dress a certain way; sit in a certain place; etc – is arrogant and perhaps an even worse violation of tznius than the skimpily clad young woman from Tel Aviv. Prior to being spat at, I had told this man who demanded my seat that his talking to a woman he does not know was more untznius than anything I was doing; he should just go sit down in the open seats and please leave me alone.

You express many concerns about the spiritual level of the men on the bus if exposed to improper dress. I, a middle aged woman, was covered literally from head to toe, (hardly an attraction to any man’s yetzer hara) – until my snood fell off while being beaten. Let me ask you: For the men who just sat there, who refused to come to my aid, but rather continued to read from their Tehillim or Siddurim – or cheered on the attackers - while a woman was screaming from the punches and kicks, how do you think their spiritual level was served? Personally, I would much rather my son observe a mixed seating arrangement on a bus, even if it means seeing some improperly dressed women, than to develop a neshama that is insensitive to the screams and pain of another human being. Such lack of humanity belongs to S’dom, not the Jewish people.

You mention the economic necessity of using public transportation. This is no doubt the case for many. Yet, families who suffer severe economic hardships would not even entertain the thought of switching to eating the cheaper traif meat than the more expensive kosher meat. The money is found – or it is done without. If avoiding the possibility of seeing improperly dressed women is so important – then why not find the money to take taxis or arrange private vans?

There is a bottom line to all this discussion: Nobody’s chumras outweighs the laws of Hashem’s Torah.


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54. REPLY TO #52     10/27/07 - 10:07 PM
Miriam Shear - imahawk@aol.com

So - what are you saying, that the Rabbonim were wrong the 2nd time around?

Are you absolutely sure that the cause and effect is as you see it? Perhaps the parade took place because we did not prevent the chillul Hashem the first time around?

What is worse in your opinion: A parade of such sort -or the Chillul Hashem by Jews behaving like a bunch of low life race rioters?


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55.     10/27/07 - 11:05 PM
yoni

R’ Yerucham Levovitz ZT”L of Mir told over, that it Kelm, walking on the street was separate - on one side of the street were the men, and on the other side - the women...

I would hasten to note that chelm was the legendary villiage of idiots. All stories of chelm are mentioned in order to mock what is seen as shtussim.

I would not suggest quoting the costomes of chelm in support of anything unless you would like to be seen as deficient.


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56.     10/27/07 - 11:24 PM
Anonymous

Uh, Yoni?

Can you please try to educate yourself on what was Kelm, before your fingers jump to the keyboard?

It's Ok not to know everything, (like certain Gemarahs, towns in Europe, etc) but not so Ok not to check with someone else before you hasten to respond.

I repeat: It's OK not to know everything. No one expects any individual to have all knowledge at their fingertips. Check, and then answer.


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57. To Mrs. Shear re #53     10/27/07 - 11:24 PM
Yoel B

I only have one problem with what you write: For the men who just sat there, who refused to come to my aid, but rather continued to read from their Tehillim or Siddurim – or cheered on the attackers - while a woman was screaming from the punches and kicks, how do you think their spiritual level was served?

Jewish males, perhaps. But Jewish men?


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58. to Mrs Shear     10/28/07 - 4:32 AM
Nechama

I feel terrible for you. Thank you for being brave enough to share your story.

Did you ever get any form of apology?

Why did the driver do nothing (or did he react)?

Did you file a police complaint? Do you know the identities of the people involved? I hope they get thrown into jail.


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59. what bothers me     10/28/07 - 7:16 AM
david A Willig - daw0416412@cs.com

Is that there seems to be an underlying idea that it is our job to do ANYTHING to raise our spiritual level. THIS IS WRONG. We have to act in an halachic way. It is not up to us to burn movie theaters or treif butchers. Or to throw bleach at women who are not dressed to suit our chumra's. There is no halachic justification for it. There is no halachic justification for the use of force against a fellow Jew, absent a beis din's ruling. Therefor, whatever mussar shmuzen were given in kelm, they do not justify antihalachic conduct. Mussar is meant to raise our spiritual level,and help us control our animalistic tendencies, not to make us into animals with no self control.


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60. TO: NECHAMA #58     10/28/07 - 8:28 AM
Miriam Shear - imahawk@aol.com

Yes, I did file a formal police complaint; an incident report was filed with the Kotel police. I was then referred to the Kishlei (the old British prison inside Shaar Yaffo) which was then transferred to the police station at the Russian Compound.

I have only received an apology from the one man who came forward as a witness and offered to help me get to the hospital and helped give a statement to the Kotel police. He apologized for not coming to my aid -he was blocked by another passenger who would not allow him out of his seat to intervene.

Many months later, an anonymous letter was sent to me from several women who claimed that they were horrified by the events of November 24th but were afraid for their own physical safety to intervene because it was clear to them that they were outnumbered. Furthermore, they said that, even though it was shameful to admit, they did not feel that they could weather the social repercussions of publicly coming forward to defend my refusal to sit in the back. They lamented that they also "despise" the separate seating arrangement, particularly on a bus that is clearly not Mehadrin, but such sentiments could have them labelled in an unfavorable light within their communities that could backfire against their husbands and children.


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61. Teshuva     10/28/07 - 10:54 AM
Nechama

I wonder if the main assailant (and his silent accessories who prevented you from being helped) even realized how wrong he was. I doubt even now he has had a hirhur Teshuva. He really deligitimized women's rights from start (asking you to move on a non-Mehadrin bus - that was presumptious) to finish (spitting and screaming and hitting).

Do you think that the mehadrin bus concept (separate seating to prevent men who need to use public transport from having to see scantily dressed Jewish women) is a value that can still be salvaged, or is it impossible?


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62. RESPONSE TO NECHAMA #62     10/28/07 - 11:17 AM
Miriam Shear - imahawk@aol.com

It is beyond me to speculate on the value of Mehadrin vs. Non-Mehadrin buses in the future. I think we have enough on our hands to deal with the here and now by resolving this issue. If the High Court disallows Egged the option of designating certain buses as Mehadrin, they will be creating a vacuum that will soon be filled by private entrepreneurs offering such service. Overall, that will be the best solution for everyone.


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63. No excuse for violence     10/28/07 - 11:17 AM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, N.Y. - efpasik@aol.com

Reading the comments above, it seems a few of us have lost perspective. The lines between right and wrong, mitzvah and aveira, have become blurred. A few believe that physically beating a woman on a non-Mehadrin bus for declining to change her seat is acceptable behavior. This is very warped thinking, and kudos to Mrs. Shear for speaking out.

From a legal perspective, when a passenger pays the fare, and boards a bus, train, ship, or plane, there now exists a "common-law contract of carriage". The passenger is contractually entitled to a safe, comfortable ride to his destination, free of any verbal or physical abuse. In the 1950s, an African-American woman, Rosa Parks, once declined a bus driver's "order" to move to the back of the bus. Many others followed her example, and a civil rights movement was born. Mrs. Shear was a passenger on a non-Mehadrin bus, where mixed seating is part of the deal. Punches, kicks, and spit are very much not part of the deal.

The common-law contract of carriage can, in other ways, work to the benefit of the religious passenger. A few times in New York, where I am a commuter on the Long Island Rail Road, I've sent letters to the LIRR president complaining about indecent ads. My letters state that the LIRR and I are parties to the common-law contract of carriage. I'm entitled to a ride on a train where I am not viewing soft-core pornography. On a few occasions, the train authorities have agreed, and the offending ads were removed. On other occasions, where I complained to the New York City subway authorities about indecent ads, my complaints were rejected.

Win or lose, this process is called civilization. We don't vandalize the trains or buses, and we don't beat up women. We peacefully make our points, and get on with our lives.


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64. Fringe Lunatics-the final sentence     10/28/07 - 12:03 PM
Anonymous

the attitude:

Anyone who is farther to the right of my religious commitment is a Frummock, stam a Machmir.

Anyone who is on a lesser level of observance is a Shaygetz.

And then we wonder why our kids- and adults - are going nebbach off the derech?

The first sentence is just as damaging as the second, if not more.

Why is it acceptable to besmirch entire legions of dedicated Jews for the actions of some fringe lunatics?


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65. response to Mrs. Shear     10/28/07 - 1:09 PM
Anonymous

So - what are you saying, that the Rabbonim were wrong the 2nd time around?

"the rabbonim" is a broad term

I don't think we need to discuss whether rabbis are right or wrong. I wrote what I did in response to your comment, but this is not the point of your article or of my responses.

What is worse in your opinion: A parade of such sort -or the Chillul Hashem by Jews behaving like a bunch of low life race rioters?

You phrase the choice in that manner. I'll phrase it differently: What do you think is worse, a parade in the King's Palace that spits on the King, or the King's servants running riot around the palace which prevents people from spitting on the King?

I'm really not interested in discussing the parade and what should or should not have been done about it. The only reason I mentioned it was because you referred to a wild protest in the streets to a public abomination scheduled to take place in Yerushalayim, which all religious Jews agree is an abomination, to violent acts which the vast majority of religious Jews condemn as unacceptable. Can you agree that they are not comparable?

As to your minimizing your son's exposure to the billboard near his yeshiva, have you tried contacting the advertisor to complain? Must we accept in-our-face offensive advertising? In Eretz Yisrael? Advertising by Jews? In New York, when there was offensive advertising on city busses and subways, people spoke up, and our elected officials were contacted.

Is it wrong to spray-paint billboards and ads in bus shelters in Israel that we are not allowed to see? If so, why?

by the way, notwithstanding these questions and comments, I admire what you did on the bus. I would personally like to see public busses remain mixed and separate vans or busses available for those who want separate seating


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66. to yoni:     10/28/07 - 1:14 PM
Anonymous

Kelm is in Russia.

Chelm is in eastern Poland. It is not a legendary place but a real city. What is legendary is that it was a town of fools. Actually, many respectable Jews lived there.


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67.     10/28/07 - 1:23 PM
Anonymous

"Do you think that the mehadrin bus concept (separate seating to prevent men who need to use public transport from having to see scantily dressed Jewish women) is a value that can still be salvaged, or is it impossible?"

I want to point out that the arguments for the buses are contradictory. This theme is in comment #48 too, for example:

"It is impossible to insist that only immodestly dressed females should get on the bus from the rear doors, and the Tzenu’os can sit in the front"

and

"it is totally impractical, as I wrote above, to expect that only non-Tznius women sit in the back"

So the mehadrin buses are designed to prevent men from seeing the immodestly dressed. Yet we are also told that in this situation, mehadrin seating on a nonmehadrin bus was justified because all the regulars were haredim! Similarly, when Ms Schmidt wrote on CrossCurrents on the topic, she said that she was told, as one example, that young boys are distracted when haredi women are on buses, for example, on their way to a wedding.

Arguments for mehadrin buses are launched at people's convenience. When it's convenient to mention, it's the scantily clad secular women who are the problem. When it's convenient, it's the Haredi women on the bus who we want to sit separately from the haredi men, and no one is imposing on or inconveniencing the secular.


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68. Response to Mrs. Shear from Anonymous #48     10/28/07 - 2:03 PM
Anonymous

Thank you for your responses.

I am afraid that I am still unclear as to what your position, regarding Egged Mehadrin buses, was prior to the incident. It seems to me that you feel that, contra Rav Pincus, it is an inappropriate response to bus bombings to opt for this increased level of Tznius, since it is a Chumra. Do I have that right?

I understand why that may be your sentiment. It is true that men must learn to be Kedoshim even in difficult circumstances. However, considering that many of the people who live in Eretz Yisrael have different sensibilities regarding this issue that may differ from those residing in Chu"l, as Rav Pincus points out;

and, that, a petition to make a bus line officially Mehadrin has a much better chance of being accepted if that is, in any case, the de facto arrangement of the regulars, which may be what they were trying to achieve;

and, that there was no prior record of violence relating to this matter;

and, that your response of "this is not a synagogue" to repeated prior days' requests of you to move would connote a statement of your own personal judgement of inappropriateness of a Mehadrin arrangement, in opposition to the prevailing sentiment of many of the locals, (and not a protest against violence of Charedim, which was your stated intent)-

I cannot help but wonder why you chose Mehadrin seating arrangements as your line in the sand, and ask whether you consulted with a Posek as to whether putting your foot down on this particular issue was an appropriate response to the violence you witnessed re the gay parade.

I again reiterate that the violence toward you was entirely unacceptable from any Halachic vantage point, and was a Chillul Hashem.

Thank you for your response.


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69.     10/28/07 - 2:07 PM
yoni

Chelm is in eastern Poland. It is not a legendary place but a real city. What is legendary is that it was a town of fools. Actually, many respectable Jews lived there.

yes, but all quotes to chelm generaly refer to the legendary populace.

Which is why it is amusing to see someone quoting it with a straight face.


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70. Convenience     10/28/07 - 2:14 PM
Nechama

To Anon 67: YOU wrote: "Arguments for mehadrin buses are launched at people's convenience. When it's convenient to mention, it's the scantily clad secular women who are the problem. When it's convenient, it's the Haredi women on the bus who we want to sit separately from the haredi men, and no one is imposing on or inconveniencing the secular."

For most men, it is scantily clad irreligious women who pose a problem, for many men, it is provocatively dressed Charedi women who cause a problem, and for a few men, who grew up in very secluded conditions, such as in some Chassidic courts, it is having to see any woman for an hour's journey that would "feel" wrong to them. To each person, it is according to who they are.

By the way, the whole problem is partly the fault of egged who do not supply enough buses during peak hours. The American reader may not see the problem of men and women viewing each other seated, but the truth is that many buses are so packed, that there are like 20-30 people standing, and everyone seated is crammed like sardines. Imagine the feelings of a Charedi man squished alongside five irreligiously dressed women. I'm sure that this kind of atmosphere contributed to people badly wanting Mehadrin lines. And, as mentioned, many Mehadrin lines began as private buses, whose customers Egged tried to snag.

Mr Pasiq, perhaps you know the answer to this one. If a woman ascends a Mehadrin bus and sits in the wrong seat and refuses to move when asked politely, can one complain under common law contract of carriage? Can anything be done at the time, or only complaints be made afterwards? In other words, are mehadrin buses intrinsically unenforceable?


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71. Bus 417     10/28/07 - 3:03 PM
Menachem Lipkin

For over a year now I have been riding Egged bus number 417 from Beit Shemesh to Jerusalem daily. The 417 begins in RBS A, travels down through RBS B, and then through our mixed Dati Leumi/Chiloni neighborhood before heading off to JM.

This is not a "mehadrin" bus and the ridership reflects the diversity of the neighborhoods through which it travels; Yeshivish, Chasidish, Dati Leumi, Chiloni, etc. These are standard intercity buses with an aisle down the middle and pairs of seats on either side. In general people self-segregate themselves by gender in the pairs of seats.

Most people respect this, no matter their religious label. The Chilonim don't complain about the segregation, the Chareidim don't complain about the mode of dress of some of the chiloni women. It doesn't matter who sits in the front or back. Nobody says a word if a man and woman do happen to sit together. Even if, as happens on occasion, (GASP) they happen to be a Chareidi couple! If a man is standing and two women are sitting singly in two separate pairs of seats the women will quickly pair up so the man can sit. (And visa-versa. Well, ok sometimes the men need a little more prodding, but it's done.)

Maybe some of the Chareidim are uncomfortable seeing the women in the same section of the bus, and maybe the Chilonim are annoyed by feeling pressure to segregate, but somehow, in spite of all the pontificating above about zealotry and tznius, these people all manage to ride this bus together in relative peace and harmony.

I can be done.


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72. oy yoni     10/28/07 - 3:25 PM
Anonymous

he wrote KELM, get it? Kelm with a K, not Chelm with a CH that's a DIFFERENT city in a DIFFERENT


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73.     10/28/07 - 3:25 PM
Anonymous

country


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74.     10/28/07 - 3:27 PM
Anonymous

"For most men, it is scantily clad irreligious women who pose a problem, for many men, it is provocatively dressed Charedi women who cause a problem, and for a few men, who grew up in very secluded conditions, such as in some Chassidic courts, it is having to see any woman for an hour's journey that would "feel" wrong to them. To each person, it is according to who they are."

If it were just different people saying different things, we would not hear from anyone in your first group that we need mehadrin buses in all-haredi neighbhorhoods and that they do not impose on anyone secular - and yet we do. Any argument at all is launched, b/c the arguments are pretexts for mehadrin buses, not reasons for them.

The men who grew up in "Secluded chassidic courts" rode mixed buses all these years, and the problem of seeing "Any" woman is not new. Women going to weddings in haredi enclaves are not usually "provacatively dressed" and yeshiva bochrim on buses with such women is not a "new" issue that developed in the last ten years. For all your groups of men, it is easier to keep ones eyes on the floor or in a sefer on a bus than in a street. The buses were always packed; this is also nothing new. If it is really this subjective, and only a small group needs not to see women at all, then separate seating should be done on private buses, and not in the public square.

Tznius is a distraction; a tool used to achieve an end. Oh, there are individuals who ride them for tznius reasons, but what mehadrin buses are really about is marking the territory as haredi. The bus is "ours" and not "theirs." Again, in the campaign in RBS to keep nonharedim out of public buildings, they singled out men who do not wear kipot, not just women. This is about owning one's own neighborhoods and putting others on notice.

Think how much you take for granted that the buses are not really about tznius when you talk about women not minding so much when they nurse on the buses. That's an advance in tznius?! You yourself advised that men check the back to see if the women have enough seats.

"In other words, are mehadrin buses intrinsically unenforceable?"

Just read your own comment and you'll see they are unenforceable and impractical. You give complicated rules for who should sit where, men checking to see women are not cramped, etc etc - and when you are all done with your list of already complex rules, you'll see that you've not even accomodated common situations, like families travelling together, mothers with older boys, payment, etc

The whole situation is a recipe for trouble.


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75. Yoni     10/28/07 - 3:35 PM
Anonymous

I didn't ask you to find out about "chelm", but KELM. For some reasons, you thought that Kelm means Chelm. As is obvious, you haven't checked yet with anyone older than you.

Please be more careful, especially when you hear a story about R' Yeruchom Levovitz. It's unbecoming to keep on harping about something you have all wrong, without trying to find out first. Don't be embarrassed by not knowing- none of us know everything. But do yourself a favor, and find out first. Or at least after it is pointed out gently that you are mistaken.

Have you heard of the Alter from Kelm (not Chelm)? Have you heard of the famous Yeshiva there? It is a fascinating and worthwhile piece of our history- you will enjoy reading up on it.


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76.     10/28/07 - 3:36 PM
Anonymous

"In general people self-segregate themselves by gender in the pairs of seats."

This is the way it was always done on Israeli buses in which haredim rode, and it worked fine!

It was understood that it was not proper for women to sit down next to haredi men. Usually if a haredi man was sitting next to an empty seat, and a woman got on the bus looking for a seat and didnt see one next to a woman, the haredi man offered to give her the seat and looked for another next to a man - or stood if there were no other seats.

The advantage of this is that if the woman did want to force the situation, she could sit down and it was up to the haredi man to move, or decide to stay put. The woman was not *forced* to stand or sit in a cramped place or in the back. It was up to people to decide how much to honor others wishes, with the ultimate choice in the hands of the haredi man as to whether he wanted to sit next to women.

As for seeing women - men are going to have to see women unless we ban women from the streets. If you don't want to look at women, look at the floor, in a sefer, out the window.


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77. To Anonymous #74, #76     10/28/07 - 3:55 PM
Anonymous

Why do you think Rav Pincus supported Mehadrin buses - "to mark the territory"? Why are you judging all the Rabbanim who support it L'Kaf Chovah?

As an aside, do you live in Eretz Yisrael?


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78. Dina Demalchusa     10/28/07 - 4:32 PM
Mordi - UK

I sympathise with one exception - you invoke 'dina demalchusa dina' not sure that applies to a Jewish-run government which contravenes Torah...


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79.     10/28/07 - 5:06 PM
yoni

dina d'malchusa applies in all circumstances.

anyone who says otherwise is self justifying.


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80. Well, not exactly     10/28/07 - 5:33 PM
Anonymous

'Dina demalchusa dina' as applied to Eretz Yisrael is an old and complex issue. In most cases, it does apply. In matters which they specifically go against the Torah, it does not apply.

That is because Jews, even in government, are required to follow the Torah, and thus do not indiscriminately enjoy the priveledge of 'dina demalchusa dina' from the populance as do other, gentile governments, such as that of the U.S.

And no, this is NOT to say that non-Mehadrin buses are against the Torah!!! Chas V'Shalom!! Just wanted to shed some light (albeit not comprehensive, and possibly not fully correct- those who have learned the halachos in depth regarding this matter, please post and help us better understand) on the matter of 'dina demalchusa dina', since it was brought up. But it does not necessarily relate to the original topic at all.

And Yoni, you do yourself no service by these off the cuff, non-thinking answers to what others post. I'll wager you've never studied these halachos in depth, and it behooves you to have some humbleness toward the concept of scholarship and try to learn something before you post these quick, flippant answers of a pseudo-expert.


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81.     10/28/07 - 5:37 PM
Anonymous

Added to clarify- Not sure about matters in which they themselves contravene the Torah- was referring to matters in which they direct others to contravene the Torah.


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82. Common-law contract of carriage     10/28/07 - 5:59 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

Nechama asks how the legal doctrine of common-law contract of carriage would apply to a situation where a female passenger on a Mehadrin bus, sitting in the wrong seat, refuses to move despite being politely asked by a fellow passenger.

The next step is to ask the bus driver to remedy the situation. He should ask the female passenger to move. If he refuses to do his job, you can complain to the bus authorities.

What you don't want to do is utilize any physical force. Committing the crime of assaulting another human being so as to enforce a civil contract is of dubious legality, to say the least. The idiocy of getting into a fight over a bus seat also speaks for itself. By the way, I'm not suggesting that you implied this possibility. On the other hand, after reading some of the other comments, I'm concerned enough that I do mention this point.

Anon. at 65 writes: "Is it wrong to spray-paint billboards and ads in bus shelters in Israel that we are not allowed to see? If so, why?"

Yes, its wrong and illegal. Its illegal because the Government says so. Its vandalism. Its property damage. Its a crime.

Anon. at 65, now I ask you: Why would you think that spray painting bus shelter ads might be permissible? What halacha? What Israeli law?


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83.     10/28/07 - 6:50 PM
Anonymous

Elliot,

I'm not the anon at 5 (I'm the one at 75 and 80- confusing with all these anons, isn't it?! :)) but I'd like to comment that vandalism is a crime, and I can't see any halachik basis to this.

How could this be permissible?

As an aside, I do remember the outreach to officials in the DOT regarding offensive advertising in Torah-observant neighborhoods in NY, and they were respectful and accomodating, replacing them with more family oriented or neutral material. I haven't lived in NY for a looong time, so I don't know if this is still the case.


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84.     10/28/07 - 6:51 PM
Anonymous

Typo- I meant I'm not the anon at 65


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85. halacha     10/28/07 - 7:31 PM
Anonymous

Why would you think that spray painting bus shelter ads might be permissible? What halacha? What Israeli law?

My answer is based, on what I've seen some rabbis rule in the past.

An example would be those rabbis who said that Jewish soldiers may not expel their fellow Jews, destroy yishuvim, exhume graves, and give our land to our murderers. Even though the government told the soldiers to do so, they were not permitted, according to halacha, to follow their orders.

Likewise, if Jews force other Jews to contravene Torah law, by allowing immodest pictures to be placed in full view in a public area, I'd be surprised to hear that you need to be a good citizen and just suffer.

Rather than laymen discussing it, I wonder what a posek would actually say about the immodest ads.


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86.     10/28/07 - 7:54 PM
Anonymous

Don't you think there is a difference between refraining from "doing bad", like expelling Jews, exhuming graves, etc, and actively comitting an act of vandalism?

Do you not see the difference?


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87. There are two ways of looking at things     10/28/07 - 9:35 PM
david A Willig - daw0416412@cs.com

The Brisker approach. You can start with the premise that if someone is afraid that he might be provoked into sin, then he is permitted to do anything to avoid this temptation. He may commit acts of vandalism, assault, arson against anything that he feels might tempt him to sin. Is there anything that is out of bounds? Can he murder? I do not know where these people draw the line. They seem to live in such fear of sin that they do not realize that they commit more sins in trying to avoid temptation than if thay accepted the risk of temptation and did their best to avoid sinning. I do not know of any Gadol that accepts this anything goes approach to avoiding temptation. The Mussar seforim that I am familiar with advocate minimizing temptation by not doing anything unnecessary to put yourself in a situation where temptation lurks. No one (to the best of my knowledge) advocates beating up women on a bus, or throwing bleach at the clothing of women. I am sure if I am wrong someone will correct me. The second approach acknowledges that temptation is part of life. After all, G-d could have avoided all problems by not creating the tree of knowledge to begin with. Joseph was tempted, David was tempted, failed, and was forgiven. But sins that are committed against other people cannot be forgiven by G-d, and if these people are so convinced of their moral superiority, they cannot possibly do Teshuvah. The end does not justify the means. This is Stalinism at its worst. I learnt in Kindergarden "NO HITTING". Is there a Rosh Yeshivah that differs with my kindergarden teacher? The issue of a soldiers refusing orders is covered by the verdicts at the NUrenberg trial, whih states that following orders is not a valid excuse for illegal conduct. The question, and it is a serious one, is the legality of the order to evict the settlers. The Rabbis are entitled to their opinion, but note: None of them advocated beating up the commanding officers, or sabotaging the Jeeps etc. No one can make himself a Tzadik by beating up women or spray painting posters. Avraham attracted strangers by catering to their needs, he didn't beat up sttanges, or convert anyone by force. If the actions of these people were by a few idiots it wouldn't be worth all this talk. The problem is that it is not a few nuts, and their leadership does not denounce their behavior.


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88.     10/28/07 - 11:11 PM
Anonymous

David,

I stand behind most of what you say in your comment, with one glaring exception: You have no halachik reshus to denounce an entire group of people by labeling criminal, anything goes behavior as the "Brisker method".

By doing so, you have lost my respect, and this is sad. Please think before you write, and know that loshon hara (which is false gossip) is no more permitted than any of the other abhorrent acts you noted, which is NOT the Brisker derech.

I am not a Brisker in the least, but know enough people and their behaviors to recognize the horrific false gossip you have just spread.

Please be careful!


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89. Anon. 86 and Rabbi David Willig write eloquently     10/28/07 - 11:11 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, N.Y. - efpasik@aol.com

Anon. 86 and Rabbi David Willig speak, eloquently, for me.

I will add this. I do acknowledge the yatzer hara for spray painting an indecent ad, particularly in Israel. The ads are such an outrage. The legal system is cumbersome and often ineffectual.

I go through Grand Central Station often several times per day. On the east side of Park Avenue, between 41st and 42nd Streets, there is a subway exit/entrance marred by soft-core pornographic ads. In my humble opinion, they violate every law in the book that relates to this issue: common law contract of carriage, sexual harrassment laws, even a criminal law statute. I emailed the NYC Transit Authority. Please take down those ads. The answer: No. I acknowledge the yatzer hara within me that wanted to shake a can of spray paint, and give a shpritz. But the law says, No. The Torah says, No. So I restrained myself. And if I vandalize, someone else takes the cue, and there is more vandalism, and even human violence. One sin leads to another.

No vandalism, no violence. Not against Mrs. Shear. Not against, l'havdil, a supermodel in a subway ad.


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90.     10/28/07 - 11:22 PM
Anonymous

I would like to add to my comment above that I am certain, from the way you generally write your comments, that you were not truly referring to the Brisker derech, but were mistakenly using the name to refer to passionate individuals, even though Briskers are truly passionate- about doing Mitzvot, not criminal activity.

I just think that in a public blog, we need to be careful to write with accuracy, as we can inadvertently "smear" an entire group of people unjustly.

As you can see from my comment in 86, I certainly agree with the sentiments expressed by Elliot. I draw the line at blaming our leaders, because I recognize that I may not be aware of the dynamics and particular situations involved, and perhaps we may not be cognizant of behind the scenes efforts invested in trying to make mentchen out of those who, well, simply aren't. To those who are very sure of themselves in pointing fingers, I will politely decline in joining, remembering that my job is to judge myself, not our great leaders who are our role models in Torah and Middos. The first person who needs to learn more from our Gedolim is myself, and I have my plate full with that alone.


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91. to anonymous 88     10/28/07 - 11:33 PM
david A Willig

You misread me. I was only referring to the classic methodology, "Their are two ways of looking at things" I was not saying that those who beat up people or throw bleach or vandalize are following the brisker derech. I am using the methodology to say that if you start with a certain premise you reach certain conclusions. If you start with a different premise you reach different conclusions. That is all I meant by referring to the Brisker derech. I meant the words the Brisker Derech to refer back to the title "There are two ways of looking at things. Rereading, I see how it was misleading and I apologize to all. My bad in that I was so anxious to be cute that I was not careful enough not to be misinterpreted. Sorry


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92.     10/28/07 - 11:39 PM
Anonymous

David,

I apologize for being quick to respond without thinking of what you might have intended. In truth, I misunderstood, and I am glad that you responded- thank you.


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93. Anons     10/29/07 - 2:22 AM
Ak

Hi, For the sake of better discussions it would be easier if one uses a user name or anon with a number etc


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94.     10/29/07 - 4:41 PM
Anonymous

Grand Central Station is not in Israel. Laws that allow such ads in Israel are anti-Torah laws and as such, please explain why I can't spray-paint them.

as to commenter 86 - Please explain how hitting Jews, destroying their homes and livelihood, digging up their graves, and being responsible for deaths, injuries and anguish in Sderot is in any sense of the word "refraining" from doing bad. I think all these actions are acts of vandalism and worse.


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95. Spray painting ads in Israel?     10/29/07 - 5:12 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

"Grand Central Station is not in Israel. Laws that allow such ads in Israel are anti-Torah laws and as such, please explain why I can't spray-paint them."

A conflict of laws question.

Israeli law allows public smutty ads. Torah law forbids them. But Israeli law also forbids vandalism and property damage.

Next time I'm in Israel, I won't spray paint the public smutty ads, because I observe dina d'malchus dina. For me, the question doesn't merit a sheilah to a posek. Its too simple.

Your opinions are different than mine. Fair enough. Sometimes we do say, Alu v'alu.... Is this one of those times? I doubt it, but prove me wrong. In fact, I think you have the "burden of proof", as we lawyers say. You're in favor of spray painting public smutty ads in Israel. Tell us which posek approves?


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96.     10/29/07 - 5:28 PM
S

As the commenter in Anon 86, (now signing as S, in deference to AK's suggestion), I will respond.

You seem to not understand my comment. I wrote,

"Don't you think there is a difference between refraining from "doing bad", like expelling Jews, exhuming graves, etc, and actively comitting an act of vandalism?"

To refrain from doing "bad" such as exhuming graves is commendable. An individual should have a clear sense of Torah morality for himself, and refrain from going over the "red line" that he draws for himself.

An act of vandalism is another matter entirely. Here, you are clearly concerned with someone ELSE'S morality, as it is quite possible to avoid seeing what one must not see. It is forbidden to destroy another's property. Even if it is obvious that the property is morally wrong.

What if you, like many other Torah-observant Jews, feel that a TV is morally wrong. Do you go into your neighbors home and throw a rock at it? How about if you need to enter your neighbor's home for another reason, and feel "forced" to pass by offending images on the TV. Do you then feel justified in destroying it? Can you not see the absurdity of this? Do you think perhaps it would be proper, instead, to AVERT your eyes?


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97. the law     10/29/07 - 6:44 PM
Anonymous

Elliot Pasik - so no matter what the Israeli government would tell you, a soldier, to do, you would do, no matter whether it entailed chilul Shabbos where no pikuach nefesh was involved, raising a hand against another Jew, or other forbidden acts, because of dina d'malchusa dina?

You're right, I didn't understand your comment S.

Apparently you think it's fine for a soldier to disobey orders. Why is that? The army doesn't think it's an individual act. They think it undermines the entire army.

I don't see spray-painting a pruste ad as being concerned solely with someone else's morality. It's about my morality and the morality of my fellow Jews, and we are all forbidden to see pruste images. We are all adversely affected by these ads, even if we personally avoid looking at them, just by having them up in the street. When the billboards and advertisments are in our face, then it is exceedingly difficult to avoid them, and why should I, a Jew in the Land of Israel, have to avoid them? They shouldn't be there. Spray-painting them hurts nobody but those who put those ads there, who shouldn't have put them there in the first place. I am their intended victim (aka customer) and I fail to see why you think I, the victim, have to stand for this.

Comparing the street to someone's home? Are you being serious now?


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98. The poor rating is intended for commentator no. 97     10/29/07 - 7:09 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

In court, I would rise and say, Objection, Your Honor, I move to strike your answer as nonresponsive. Either the motion would be granted, and the judge would order you to directly answer my question, re: a posek who muttars spray painting public smutty ads in Israel; or, if my motion was denied, I could argue to the jury in summation that they should infer from your evasive answer that you don't have the name of a posek. Either way, I win, which always pleases me.

Commentator no. 97, I'm actually empathetic to your position. I hate the smutty public ads. They demean women, they appeal to man's baser instincts, and they corrupt children. But if the illegality of vandalism doesn't seem to bother you, consider this. You're contributing to an atmosphere of lawlessness. One sin leads to another. Today its spray painting signs, tomorrow we bleach immodestly dressed women. Maybe the bleach will get into a woman's eyes, and she'll be blinded. The next day, we'll burn garbage containers, someone will have an asthma attack from the smoke, and die. Or less attenuated, the fire will spread to someone's house, and a Jew will die there. But wait, why bother with such indirect violence - let's just get guns and knives, and we can all kill each other directly, all in the name of Torah.

In fact, as I write this, I recall reading one of Alan Dershowitz's books where he described how a now deceased rabbi, protesting the appearance of a Soviet Union dance troupe in New York, arranged for a smoke bomb or two to be set off in the office of Sol Hurok, the impressario who arranged the performance. A Jewish secretary in the office died from smoke inhalation.

I've always admired Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who attracted many Jewish supporters. He consistently preached nonviolent, civil disobedience. No ifs, ands, or buts. No mixed messages. No riots. No violence. Sits ins, marches, rallies, economic boycotts, lawsuits, legislative lobbying - no violence. Dr. King was a strong supporter of Israel, and he attracted many Jewish supporters, including some orthodox rabbis.

Would that own own Jewish community take up the approach of decent Gentiles like Dr. King for solving our own communal issues.


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99. shaila     10/29/07 - 7:45 PM
Anonymous

I was the one who posted in 85 "Rather than laymen discussing it, I wonder what a posek would actually say about the immodest ads."

I didn't ask a posek. I did ask two learned laymen. One said, "it's a shvera shaila" - not saying it could be done but not negating it either. The other said, of course you can spray-paint it.

You were the evasive one, not having answered my question to you.


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100. Yes     10/29/07 - 8:06 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

I suppose there might be some extreme occasions when an American or Israeli law might offend my conscience to the point where I might be required to defy the law. But there is a difference between active and passive defiance. The stakes matter too. The methods also matter.

Let's stay on the subject. Spray painting a smutty ad is a crime in Israel. It breeds lawlessness, and disorder. Today we spray paint, next we beat up Mrs. Shear. You don't like the smutty ads? Neither do I. So go to the Knesset and change the law. Or complain to the companies that post these ads. This type of consumer activism does work, not always, but sometimes.


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101.     10/29/07 - 8:10 PM
S

Anon, so, uh, maybe ask a Posek. I'm not sure "learned laymen" are qualified to pasken on such serious matters.

Elliot- My opinion is to give up. Of course you win, in court and out of it, but this fellow's thinking is clouded, I doubt your words or mine will leave any impression.

I do take exception to your choice of Dr. ML King as a model for our society. He may have been a dignified messenger for his people, and he may have done a lot of good for his country and people. But we have far greater role models, and don't need to look to MLK for inspiration, when we have a myriad of stories and examples set by holy Torah greats in our long and rich history.


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102.     10/29/07 - 8:29 PM
Esther Langer - NY

Edmund Burke said "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Miriam Shear is an eloquent and brave writer. May Hashem strengthen her hands.


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103.     10/29/07 - 8:29 PM
Esther Langer - NY

Edmund Burke said "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Miriam Shear is an eloquent and brave writer. May Hashem strengthen her hands.


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104. rude     10/29/07 - 8:51 PM
Anonymous

rather rude S to dismiss me like that and refer to me in that way

too bad you can't have a civil discussion and refer to the points I made

elliot pasik - you compare American law to Israeli law when the point is they are not comparable. There is dina d'malchusa dina when Jews live under gentile rule. There is no halachic imperative to follow laws made by Jews that contravene my ability to follow halacha. You persist on not addressing the points and questions I raise, so I guess you're not interested in discussing this either.


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105.     10/29/07 - 9:21 PM
S

"too bad you can't have a civil discussion and refer to the points I made"

I think I have addressed your points, but I'm not sure you really are interested in hearing another point of view than your own.

And "civil" is an interesting word for you to use :). I certainly do promote "civility" in all areas, so if you agree, we're on the same page here...


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106. Rude?     10/29/07 - 9:52 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

to 104, It is strange for someone who hides behind the shield of Anonymous to complain that someone else is news. Anyway, what is a learned layperson? Am I a learned layperson? I thought that according to you and your fellow chareidim, only an authentic "gadol" whatever that might be, is entitled to any opinion on anything. A truly "learned layperson" should know enough NOT to pasken shailos. The main problem is balance and perspective. There is a place for civil disobedience and there might be a time for active confrontation with the government. Do you really think that improper advertising posters is that issue? Thanks in part to the many Gedolim who did not believe Jabotinsky and insited that the frum Jews stay in Europe, (where we know what happened) Orthodox Jews are a minority in Israel and must deal with that fact. What the Chareidi community has done is protest every issue and use whatever political clout they have all the time. To the secular jew, they seem like children constantly threatening to hold their breath until they turn blue in the face. Now you want the Chareidim to start pushing on still another issue. Go paint over posters to your heart's content. Sooner or later, some policeman will catch you and you'll go to jail for 6 months. I do not know. Does Israel have female guards in mens prisons? If not, maybe you would be happy there. Otherwise, understand, that you cannot violate laws on the basis of 1 of your friends opinion. Governments bring stability, which is why we pray for the peace and stability of every government. The same government that protects the advertising posters also protects the chareidi community against the secular community, many soldiers and reservists, who have uzzi's, and don't care for you chareidim very much. Do you still want to defy the government?


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107.     10/29/07 - 10:08 PM
S,

David


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108.     10/29/07 - 10:08 PM
S,

David


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109.     10/29/07 - 10:12 PM
S

Sorry about the above, hit the wrong button.

David,

Your comment made me smile. Now you've got me imagining Sir Anon whiling away his day with a paint can and long-handled brush.

As an aside, as a bonafide Chareidi, I wish you wouldn't use "you and your fellow Charedim" in that way- childish action-seekers (and painters) may get a lot of attention, but they are not the whole story.


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110. I give up....sort of     10/29/07 - 10:13 PM
Elliot Pasik - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

S, I take your advice. Hello, Mr. Spray Painter: I quit this debate. Just do me one favor. When you do shpritz the bus shelters, try to to lay some newspapers on the ground so you don't mess up the sidewalks.

Oh, one more thing. Esther Langer contributes a brilliant quote from Edmund Burke. I join in the bracha. Yes, may Hashem strengthen the hands of Mrs. Shear, and may Hashem strengthen the rest of her too, because with people like Mr. Spray Painter, who knows what's next.


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111. Vandalizing billboards     10/29/07 - 10:44 PM
Yoel B

OK, the billboards are quasi-pornographic. But whether they are public property or private property, they are not YOUR property. I ask these questions as a layman, not so learned: Does the Torah permit a private party to steal or damage another's property in order to prevent an aveirah? An aveirah affecting one person? Many people? But a person in the presence of such a billboard might avert his eyes and not do an aveirah, so that the presence of the billboard alone does not guarantee transgression (by anyone other than those involved in creating the billboard and putting it up, of course.) Obviously, a beit din with jurisdiction could. But could a posek halachically authorize an individual to do so? Isn't vandalism motzi mechavero bli ra'ayah?


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112.     10/30/07 - 6:24 AM
Anonymous

(The above comment was copied and pasted from the Mishmar blog) - sorry for not crediting them.


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113. note to anonymous 112     10/30/07 - 6:47 AM
david A Willig - daw0416412@cs.com

Do you know how to read? Note what the letter said and what id did not say. It said to protest the billboars. It did NOT say to paint them over. It did express sympathy with those who did and went to jail, but it did not tell anyone to do it. I haven't seen any of these Rabbis painting over billboards. In other words, while protesting these quasi pornographic billboards might be a mitzvah is a mitzvah, there is no mitzvah to paint over them, and it is something that might get you put in jail.


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114.     10/30/07 - 6:49 AM
yoni

But I'm sorry, none of those names are good enough.

What would rav moshe have to say about the topic?


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115. Mehadrin     10/30/07 - 7:24 AM
Yardena - EY

With regard to the current discussion, I believe it was Rabbi Wein who said (with regard to the violence that took place during America's Civil Rights Movement) that even if the violence and vandalism is used to support a very good cause, it's hard to put a lid on it after the cause has been won. The barrier has already been broken. This is not exactly what he said, this is my understanding to the best of my memory.

With regard to the Mehadrin bus issue: Out of fairness, I have to say that I personally haven't had bad experiences with riding Mehadrin buses, and I do like them.

Example: Once, after I'd boarded a Mehadrin bus, I turned back halfway through the men's section to see whether a child who wasn't with me was hopefully with my husband. A man behind me obviously assumed that I was turning to sit in the men's section. In a very soft, pleasant and courteous tone, he explained that this was a Mehadrin bus and so forth. I explained that I upheld the Mehadrin seating and that I was just checking on my kids. Without meaning to, my tone came out huffy and defensive. In spite of my own lack of courtesy, he immediately apologized profusely.

This is how most people generally behave on Mehadrin. If they don't, I don't see what the point is of having Mehadrin.

On a regular Egged bus: A young frum American mother sat down with her friend in those seats near the front that face the whole bus and the back is to the driver, if you know what I mean. Her baby started nuzzling, so she immediately flipped up her shirt, flicked a cloth over herself (barely) and started nursing. Now, she didn't flash one millimeter of anything assur, but there was something very startling and inappropriate about the way she did it. I'm not sure how to explain.(I think it's partly because she didn't even try to angle herself more inconspicuously.) Anyway, a Yerushalmi lady leaned over and in a very soft, firm voice she asked the American if she could at least sit in the facing seat (meaning so she would be foward-facing and less conspicuous) so she wouldn't be facing the whole bus. Those seats were empty and the young women obliged, although they were very resentful. But I think the Yerushalmi lady was right, and I think she behaved with derech eretz. She didn't yell or tell the American to stop nursing, or anything like that. But I think that if a frum lady is so totally clueless about basic propriety, it's okay to say something in a quiet, courteous manner.

What I mean to show is that tsnius on buses can be handled in a way that is courteous and effective. And even if it's not effective, one is still forbidden to get angry or violent.

Lastly, men should NOT sit in the front seats in a non-Mehadrin bus.

1) In the very front seat, because of the stairs, you end up being exactly eye-level and mere inches from everything you are forbidden to see. I don't know who's telling charedi men to sit there, but it is really illogical.

2) The farther up front you sit, the more likely you are to be rubbed by every single passenger who gets on the bus. You even get leaned on. And the view there isn't so great either.

I don't know who keeps telling men to do this. If you've ever sat there, you will know exactly what I mean.


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116. re 106     10/30/07 - 10:19 AM
JR

David Willig - if you were a soldier in the IDF and you were told to desecrate the Shabbos not in a situation of pikuach nefesh, or you were told to use force to evict Jews from their homes because their property was going to those who murder us, would you obey orders?

Elliot Pasik doesn't want to answer the question. Do you?

Rabbi Horowitz, re comment 106, the tone and content of the comment are not what I expect to read on your blog i.e. denouncing chareidi leaders, exceedingly obnoxious remarks addressed to chareidim


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117. I answer any question     10/30/07 - 10:58 AM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

The larger issue is what is pikuach nefesh. If discipline in the army breaks down, that is a pikuach nefesh situation. My understanding, and my brother in law served in the reserves for many years, is the army does not ask soldiers to violate shabat except in a pikuach nefesh situation. There were many soldiers that served in the American Army especially during WW2, who followed orders and violated shabat. Is the Israeli different halachically. Before I went in to the army and faced that situation, I would research the subject in depth. I would like to think that I could talk my way out of a conflict. I would like to think that if I could not, I could withstand any test. I have not been there. As far as the settlers, my halachic authurities are split on this very difficult matter. I am convinced that the order was illegal. I would hate to be in that situation. At the same time, I would hate even more to have the army dissolve. Believe it or not there are people out there who want to kill Jews. The army is the only thing that prevents another holocaust. I would like to think that I would uphold my intellectual postion, that the order was illegal, and refuse to participate in it, but I do understand the poskim who reluctantly uphold the governmant's position. As far as the tone of my letter, when "gedolim" move out of the field of their expertise, thay are as liable to be wrong as any other man. They put people in cherem for disagreeing with them, but they are as sensitive to criticism as teenagers. When any one moves out of lock step, they jump on them and try to ruin them and their families. If this be heresy, put me in cherem. It would not bother me at all.


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118.     10/30/07 - 11:35 AM
S

Yoni,

Your comment about "good enough" is stunning in its Chutzpah.

What would Rav Moshe say about your denigration of these holy Torah greats? Your young age is no excuse for this staggering arrogance.

Choose your own personal Torah leaders, certainly, without the Chutzpah.

To those who advocate spray painting- somehow, I am not quite convinced that your motivations are l'shem shomayim.


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119.     10/30/07 - 11:58 AM
yoni

To say that someone doesn't qualify as good enough to say a psak that contradict basicaly everything I've ever heard in my torah education, doesn't constitue denigration.

I have simply objected that I am not willing to do something that everything I ever learned and everyone who ever taught me say is unequivicably assur, on the basis of that rabbis psak (and I will not call him a gadol, because he is not, nomatter what you say. He does not enjoy a hundreth of the respect, admiration, and unquestioned obiescence that rav moshe enjoyed. this is saying nothing about him personaly though. People have to EARN the title gadol, and as far as I'm concerned they just don't make the bar).

they know alot of torah, but it doesn't match what i've been taught at all, therefore I am reluctant to trust them period.


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120.     10/30/07 - 12:27 PM
Anonymous

David Willig,

The "Do you know how to read?" comment was rather surprising from you, who was misunderstood. Did I say one word beyond what the notice said?

Now I will - these Gedolim were upset that those who did these actions were treated as criminals! Those who protest that it is a crime and should be treated as criminals are obviously out of sync with what these Gedolim held.

Yoni,

R' Moshe had a very consistent opinion on what to do in Eretz Yisrael - listen to Rav Shach and R' Shlomo Zalman zt"l.


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121.     10/30/07 - 12:34 PM
Anonymous

It is surprising that Admin allows all and sundry to comment but removed a comment that was a verbatim translation of the opinion of R' Shlomo Zalman, R' Elyashiv, and Rav Shach.

Are they the only ones denied a voice on this blog?


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122.     10/30/07 - 3:20 PM
yoni

perhaps the moderator knew the source and felt it was a missleading translation?

besides, there is no such thing as a "verbatum" translation, and all translations are essentialy a commentary and spin the origional words according to the translators bent.


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123. Thank you     10/30/07 - 3:50 PM
S

As this is no longer a blog that is appropriate for me, I would like to thank some of the commenters for some very interesting dialogue, and wish hatzlacha to all those working to effect positive change in the Chinuch of our children and related matters.

From where I stand, I no longer view the blog as a sincere place for ehrilich, G-d fearing Jews to discuss pressing issues and how to effect change- the denigration of holy Gedolim is a line in the sand that I will not cross. This is in no way a reflection on some of the wonderful commenters, and I truly have appreciated the intelligent and sincere discourse here.

Hatzlacha to all.


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124. Come back S     10/30/07 - 4:14 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

I agree with S, there was some very intelligent discourse here, even with those with whom I strongly disagree.

I saw no denigration of rabbis here. Some blunt, serious talk, yes, that's to be expected among our people, but no disrespect. To the contrary, I believe the highest order of respect is not to ignore the opinion of a rabbi, judge, or political leader with whom you disagree, but to deal with it in some manner, make your points based on fact and opinion, and deal with the issues of the day. I recall a nice phrase from Rabbi Horowitz, most problems do not self correct.

Speaking of Rabbi Horowitz, we should all thank him for this great web site, and comment opportunity. When S suggested I pick someone else to hold up as a modern leader to be admired, Rabbi Horowitz was on my short list.

So S, don't go away, we need you buddy.


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125. One more thing..........     10/30/07 - 4:29 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

If you spray paint a bus shelter, don't you have to look at the ad to see what you're doing? Does this make sense?

If you get arrested and convicted for vandalism, you'll have a criminal record. How are you going to get a job? A lot of employers are doing criminal background checks these days. Do you think a yeshiva wants to hire a guy with criminal record?

Just wondering...


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126. I plead guilty     10/30/07 - 5:54 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

I am probably the one S was referring to as someone who does not have sufficient respect for the "Gedolim". Guilty as charged. Rav Moshe was quoted as saying that he did not want his Teshuvot accepted because of who he was but because of the logic of his answer. As I grow older, I see less and less psak that is justified by logic and citations and more and more fiats whose sole justification is because we say so and we are the gedolim. This is a very recent innovation. In addition, I see chumra replacing psak. I was tought from my earliest years anyone can be a machmir. A gadol is one who knows enough to be meikil. I have great respect for those I consider to be Gadolin., but there are many people out there who I don't think deserve the title.


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127. It's a shanda!     10/31/07 - 7:12 AM
Tobiyahu - Philadelphia

It is shameful for these "religious" men to treat a daughter of Zion this way, so contrary to Torah. Both women who were bullied so, are made in the image of HaShem. It is actions like these that make so many Israelis secular. Who wants a religion that says its ok to bring harm and shame to your brothers and sisters.


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128. Rabbi Horowitz:     10/31/07 - 12:52 PM
M

I am shocked that comments 106 and 118 are left as is while a comment that had a letter signed by R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, R' Elyashiv, and Rav Shach was removed. Please tell us why it was removed while the other comments remain.

(ADMIN: The comment which was removed appeared to impune individually named rabbis. Comment 118 impunes unnamed individuals whom the writer doesn't consider gedolim. Unfortunately, many of our communities have ongoing disagreements as to "who is a godol". The commentor was saying that those who behave in a certain way are not gedolim.

The criticism regarding the holocaust, #106, was left in place because, generationally, we are all survivors and chazal say that "we do not to judge a person in the time of his suffering". Would you fault a survivor who spoke out in pain against one who counseled him to stay in Europe rather than emigrate?)


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129. Impugn?     11/2/07 - 8:58 AM
Anonymous

That comment impugned them? I don't get it - the comment said nothing more than what those individually named Rabbanim actually said. The original source can be found in Michtavim UMaamarim of Rav Shach, signed by all three of those mentioned.


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130. ?!     11/2/07 - 1:26 PM
M

The comment which was removed appeared to impune individually named rabbis.

What?! It's a letter signed by three respected rabbis on the topic that is being discussed. Can the letter be posted again without any comments attached to it?

we are all survivors

Me? Born and bred in America, child of parents who were born and bred in America, who are children of 3 out of 4 parents born in America, are all survivors?! And this gives Yanky Doodles the right to attack rabbis on your blog?


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131. Sage comment     11/2/07 - 1:45 PM
Elliot Pasik, Esq. - Long Beach, NY - efpasik@aol.com

Rabbi Horowitz makes a sage comment...generationally, we are all survivors, and cites a Chazal.

I too was "born and bred" in America, as were my parents, who are first-generation Americans. Yet, I think of the Holocaust very often, perhaps every day. My father is a U.S. Army Air Corps veteran, 1943-1946, important years. Holocaust survivors, baruch Hashem, are all around us. We read Holocaust books. We see Holocaust memorials. May of our outlooks and attitudes, communally and individually, should be changed, because of what our people went through.

Rabbi Yisroel Salanter once said, If one-half of the kehilla loves the rabbis, and the other half wants to kick him out of town, that means the rabbi is doing his job.

Mr. M, I saw no attack on rabbis on this site. Disagreement, yes, but not attack. We Jews also don't have a doctrine of rabbinic immunity, which makes us different from another religion.


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132. If you can't take the heat     11/2/07 - 1:46 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

I sign my name to all my posts. I am not ashamed, or afraid of my opinions. I have been threatened with cherem before. Someone had mentioned that 79 "gedolim" signed a letter advocating a certain policy. I pointed out that there were many more than 79 who did not sign this letter. Halacha is not an election. If it was we would be Conservative or Reform. We believe in the halacha of precedent. There is too much mussar masquerading as halacha, and too much politics masquerading as halacha. And IMHO those Rabbis who indulge themselves by offring letters that basically say, "because I say so" instead of the traditional halachic responsum, arguing precedents and giving both sides of the issue, have stepped out of the world of halacha entirely. And those of us who do not recognize the difference between a Teshuvah of Rav Moshe, which discusses both sides of the question, and marshalls logic and precedent to reach a conclusion, and the new trend toward not marshalling arguments but marshalling names to add to the bottom of the letter, show the failure of our educational system. And if this be heresy, put me in cherem.


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133. Trusting Gedolim     11/3/07 - 2:33 PM
Nechama

Just because Rav Moshe chose to explain his P'sakim does not invalidate the Torah knowledge or P'sakim of those who don't. Everyone in the world would eat food with the Hechsher of Rav Elyashiv shlita, because deep down they trust him. Yet, no offense intended, most Frum people would not eat food if it only had your Hechsher on it, because they don't know you, and have no reason on which to base their trust.

There is a hiearchy for Gedolim. Amongst people who learn Torah, and are active communally, there are people who they respect, and then people who *they* respect, until you get to the top. That is how Gedolim are born. From hard work in Torah learning and on their Middos, until they begin to think the way Hashem wants us to think.

The people at the bottom don't naturally feel the respect for the Tzaddikim at the top, so it's harder for them to blindly obey. It's like me looking at a Monet - I don't even think it is particularly nice. But I lack an artist's appreciation.


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134. I am sorry, Nechama     11/3/07 - 6:22 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

But the halacha is one witness is valid for Kashrus, which is why your husband and your friends can eat your cooking. The commercial hechsherim used today are partly a result of abuses and partly as a result of the growing number of Rabbis who have no ability to earn a living and need jobs. Read Lieutenant Birnbaum, which tells how he started Meal Mart without any hashgacha and when he asked Rav Hutnes, ZTL' to help him find a low cost mashgiach, told him to forget the Mashgiach, just tell people that he, Rav Hutner, bought his food from Meal Mart. For two thousand years Rabbis have been writing Teshuvot that analysed every question in light of precedent. Even in the ghetto's where pen and paper was precious, Responsa were written analysing the problem, giving both sides, before reaching a conclusion. See Sha'alot u'tshuvot mi Ma'amakim by Rav Oshry. Now you want Rabbi's to just say yes or no? Who is the reformer?


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135.     11/4/07 - 11:18 AM
Anonymous

To David Willig,

Are you telling me that every time anyone asks a Shaala to their Rav that they don't just ask for the answer, but they insist on hearing a ten page rationale for it?

Are you telling me that, e.g, Shu"t Salmas Chaim from R' Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld is worthless because it merely states his opinions with minimal background?

Are you telling me that, say, the Teshuva of Rav Moshe that Yishuv EY is a Mitzvah Kiyumis is thoroughly sourced?

If Ploni told you something was held to be Assur to do on Shabbos by R' Moshe and R' Shlomo Zalman etc., but could not remember the reason, that you would do it anyway? Is that what you would recommend to everyone?

And the "if this is heresy, put me in Cherem" line is low demagoguery. Show me a source of someone saying such a thing.

I would also ask all those people who say that unless Rav Moshe said it, they don't care, if they have televisions in their homes. Or is Rav Moshe not good enough for that?


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136.     11/4/07 - 11:55 AM
yoni

Personaly? I don't care for TV, there is nothing worth watching on it and hasn't been for years.

and also, one is permitted to differ on a minority of issues not of major hashkafic concern (which a TV is not) and still hold by a rav. Just becuase they reject a handful of his piskei dinim and hold like someone else, does not mean that they may not rely on him for other things.

and yes, published piskei dinim MUST have rationals appendend to them if they are to be included in a shailot and teshuvot sefer, otherwise we might as well take the whole printing of the sefer and bury it right now.

When asking your rav its a different issue, because not everyone is smart enough to listen to the halachic give and take. However, if you are smart enough to do so (and not necessarily learned enough) then yes, if you can't see how something is muttar, or how something is assur, and your rabbis says it is anyway, then he MUST explain it to you until you can understand him and believe in his opinon, otherwise its assur for that person to follow his psak, PERIOD end of discussion. (see horayos were a person who is theoreticaly capable of learning enough to give a psak is chayiv if he fallows a mistaken ruling of the sages saying mutar, even if he is otherwise ignorant.)

(which is the meaning of the mishahs 'lo tiyeh rasha beinecha, ie to not do what is wicked in your own eyes.)


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137. To Anonymous 136     11/4/07 - 12:14 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

I am telling you that I am not afraid, or embarassed to put my name on my opinions. I am telling you that if I ask my Rov, I am asking someone that I have a relationship with what to do. I am not in need of analysis. But if someone who I have no relationship with tells me something that I did not ask him, he better be prepared to tell me why. Because I say so does not cut it. Neither does because rabbi so and so says so. First of all, in halacha, as in law, so much depends on the exact fact pattern. All of gemarah deals with analysis of facts, and distinguishing one set of facts from a set of facts that are similiar, but slightly different. It is the differences that determine which halacha applies. Example: A and B are both driving on shabat. Simple case, right? Wrong, A is diving to the mall, B is driving to the emergency room with a sick child. The Teshuvah analyses the facts of different cases and allows us insights into what the Rov thinks the determining factors are. Now I can apply that logic to my fact pattern, and decide what applies. Only the Pope used to claim infallibility. Only in the past 100 years did this concept of the infallibility of "Da'as Torah" come into play. Rav Moshe claimed that there was a "Siyatah D'ishmayah" on real life cases that came before him, but never claimed any special powers on genral, nonspecific questions. There were times that he changed his psak due to advances in science, i.e. heart transplants. He was not too big to change his psak, and other Poskim were not so in awe of Rav Moshe that they accepted his psak without question. On the contrary, they questioned and differed, and that is what Rav Moshe wanted.


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138. To Anonymous 136     11/4/07 - 12:18 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

I am telling you that I am not afraid, or embarassed to put my name on my opinions. I am telling you that if I ask my Rov, I am asking someone that I have a relationship with what to do. I am not in need of analysis. But if someone who I have no relationship with tells me something that I did not ask him, he better be prepared to tell me why. Because I say so does not cut it. Neither does because rabbi so and so says so. First of all, in halacha, as in law, so much depends on the exact fact pattern. All of gemarah deals with analysis of facts, and distinguishing one set of facts from a set of facts that are similiar, but slightly different. It is the differences that determine which halacha applies. Example: A and B are both driving on shabat. Simple case, right? Wrong, A is diving to the mall, B is driving to the emergency room with a sick child. The Teshuvah analyses the facts of different cases and allows us insights into what the Rov thinks the determining factors are. Now I can apply that logic to my fact pattern, and decide what applies. Only the Pope used to claim infallibility. Only in the past 100 years did this concept of the infallibility of "Da'as Torah" come into play. Rav Moshe claimed that there was a "Siyatah D'ishmayah" on real life cases that came before him, but never claimed any special powers on genral, nonspecific questions. There were times that he changed his psak due to advances in science, i.e. heart transplants. He was not too big to change his psak, and other Poskim were not so in awe of Rav Moshe that they accepted his psak without question. On the contrary, they questioned and differed, and that is what Rav Moshe wanted. As far as heresy, see Rav Slifkin, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, Rav Steizalts and Rav Nathan Kaminetsky. I am nowhere near the Talmidei Chachamim that they are. On the other hand I am not afraid of being called an Apikoirais or put into Cherem.


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139.     11/4/07 - 12:31 PM
Anonymous

Your whole comment was one big evasion. Nobody mentioned infallibility, Slifkin, or other irrelevant blogger favorites.

Let's boil it down one simple question. If R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach saw you about to report a spray-painter of bus stops to the police and told you not to do it, but would not tell you why not, other than that this is his understanding of the Will of HaShem, would you do it anyway?


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140. Yes     11/4/07 - 1:07 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

I would definitely report the spray painter. I have to do Ratzon hashem as I understand it. Otherwise why was I created? Slfkin etc. were in response to your? (under the cober of Anonymous I have no idea of whether I am dealing with one person or 10) accusing me of demgoguery for saying if this be heresy, put me in cherem. Meanwhile show me the source for giving Rav Auerbach the status of Navi? Has he claimed it? Has he ever said "Ko Amar Hashem"? Why nust i listened to his psak as opposed to Rav Aharn Lichtenstein, or Rav Hershel Schecter? or any of countless others. If you define "Gedolim as consisting of thase who you agree with, don't you see that you are guilty of circular logic? Think about it. And try coming up with some sort of name beside Anonymous. Sure your entitled to free speech. But be original, come up with something freah, like the Mad Black Hatter. Before you right to Rabbi horowitz to get me banned for insulting you, I am trying to be funny and do not mean to offend. The Mad hatter is a character in Alice In Wonderland, a children's classic, but you may no5t have heard of it. No offense meant.


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141.     11/4/07 - 2:43 PM
Shtot Son

More of this Nevu'ah nonsense.

Your own understanding of Hashem's Will is meaningless unless you're a Posek yourself.

You can follow any Posek you like. But I would hesitate to ignore R' Shlomo Zalman and go ahead and do an act which according to him was Mesirah, in favor of a Psak of R' Aharon Lichtenstein, when RAL had this to say:

Some years ago I had an argument with one of my daughters as to whether it was permissible to pierce her ears. I was of the opinion that it was problematic, based on the prohibition of wounding oneself. We agreed that if Rav Shlomo Zalman would declare it permissible then I would not raise any objection. I called him and told him that I had a question regarding such and such subject. He said, "Okay. Come on Motzei Shabbat at nine." I went [with my daughter], he listened to the whole question, and completely rejected what I had said. He couldn't understand my problem with the issue, and said "What do you mean? Our custom used to be that when a baby boy was born a 'brit milah' was performed, and a baby girl [automatically] had her ears pierced." That's what he said, but I left there astounded - not because he had rejected what I said (I was like the dust under his feet [in comparison with his learning]) but because of the respect he accorded a girl of 12 or 13.

And, RAL upon hearing about R' Soloveichik's Petirah: Rav Lichtenstein himself went to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, the great Posik in Yerushalayim. He went personally to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach to inform him of the Rav's passing and at the same time asked him what to do about rending the garment.

Divrei HaRav V'Divrei HaTalmid, Divrei Mi Shom'im?

When R' Hershel Schachter was asked who the Gadol Hador is, he responded: R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.


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142. Gadolim     11/4/07 - 3:15 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

There is no question that Rav Aharon Lichtenstein is an Anav. However we are building castles in the sky. Has Rav Auerbach put in writing that someone can not, as a matter of Halacha, report the spray painter to the police? Or are we just asking because someone thinks that is what he might say. Anyway, if I do not have a question I do not have to ask. If you do have a question, you have to ask. To me, it is clear as day, and if you want to convince me otherwise youthe burden is on you to convince me, not to bludgeon me with names. Too many times people misquote gedolim or twist their words to suit there own purposes. I am convinced that anyone who has learned hilchos momenose (laws of money) would agree that only a beis din can make someone elses property hefker, and it is perfectly clear what the halacha is. Any opinion to the contrary is just plain wrong and I suggest you look at Gemara Horiyose to see what a talmid's obligation when he realizes that a Beis Din has reached an incorrect conclusion. That is a Beis Din, let alone one man. This is all elemntary. We unfortunately live in a generation that no longer fears Hashem, we only fear "gedolim". That is not the same thing. By the way, I like your name. Areyou the same as Anonymous, or are you a newcomer to this conversation?


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143.     11/4/07 - 4:26 PM
Anonymous

"There were times that he changed his psak due to advances in science, i.e. heart transplants. He was not too big to change his psak ..."

No kidding he changed his psak due to advances in science! Nothing to do with being too big/too little!

my comment - yes, poskim can be questioned as to their reasoning

however, if someone recognized as a posek, someone I respect as my rabbi, told me something, I would accept it whether or not I asked for his reasoning or understood it

"As far as heresy, see Rav Slifkin, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, Rav Steizalts and Rav Nathan Kaminetsky.I am nowhere near the Talmidei Chachamim that they are."

How do you know? That's a disparate bunch of names you got there and at least one of them is not a talmid chacham in my opinion (I had extensive interaction with him and was very unimpressed by his knowledge and manner of thinking)


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144. Dear Anonymous     11/4/07 - 5:18 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

I am not sure why I am replying as we really are not arguing about anything important. But, I once had someone attempt, unasked, to tell me halacha. Rather than argue with him, I told him that the minute I made him my moreh d'asrah, I would tell him. Until then, he ahould only tell me halacha if I asked him. I have had people that I respect tell me halachah and answer because I said so. I realized that they were giving me a chumrah and not halachah. There is a difference. Many people refuse to admit that circumstances sometimes change halachah. The issue of the halachi definition of death is, and was very cntroversial. IMHO it takes a very big man to reconsider a psak. you think everyone does it? Fine. I do not believe that I am as big a talmid chacham as any of the 4 men I mentioned. If you think I am, I am flattered but you are wrong.


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145.     11/5/07 - 11:04 AM
Shtot Son

I am convinced that anyone who has learned hilchos momenose (laws of money) would agree that only a beis din can make someone elses property hefker, and it is perfectly clear what the halacha is. Any opinion to the contrary is just plain wrong

The breathtaking arrogance in this comment from someone who is not a Posek is astounding. Are you sure? Have you been through Shulchan Aruch even once to make such a confident proclamation?

R' Chaim Kanievsky was asked (see Derech Sicha pg. 369) - A Talmid Chacham went to a philanthropist and there was an immodest picture in the waiting room, and he immediately tore it up. When he went in to the philanthropist he said that the T"C should have asked! He answered: And when you hung the picture did you ask me?

R' Chaim Kanievsky said that the T"C certainly acted properly, since the philanthropist was violating Lifnei Iver.

Have you ever learned the Halachos of what is allowed L'Afrushei MeIssura?


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146. It's been fun     11/5/07 - 12:42 PM
david A Willig - nyc - daw0416412@cs.com

But all good things must come to an end. Let me summarize the threads, because nothing new has been added for a while. We started with Miriam Shear"s piece om how she was assaulted because she would not move to the back of the bus. Then we got all sorts of justifications on how these "men", and I use that term loosely are so bothered by the sight of a woman that they are compelled to have her sit in the back of the bus, and if she won't move, beat her up. We then were treated to much divrei mussar on the harm that can be done to a man by seeing a woman. I have yet to see or hear an halachic authority, even in a dvar mussar, advocate beating up a woman for not sitting in the rear of a public bus. At no time in Europe did anyone Jew beat up a woman for not sitting in the back of the bus. So this halacha of beating up a woman for failure to move to the back of the bus must be something new, a davar chadash. and as I have been told countless times , the Chatam Sofer said Chadash Assur min Hatorah. What the divrei mussar were trying to say is that ait is fitting for someone who is worried about these things to avoid riding on busses whenever possible. Perhaps davening at the Kotel should be eliminated if the person feels that seeing a woman on the bus will set off these uncontrollable impulses, even if not of lust but we see the anger. Drocheha Darchei Noam, the Torah's ways are ways of sweetness, the Torah does not call for beating up women, it calls for the protection of widows and orphans. This argument having failed, the next step was to change the argument, which had turned to the general disrespect and public property by certain people who call themselves chareidim. These people think nothing of throwing bleach on young women, seminary students, who are dressed with perfect tznius, but are dressed fashionably. Evidently they have discovered a new halacha that todays fashions are ipso fact assur and everyone must dress in a style that was the height of fashion 100 years ago. I do not know where this halachah is found. The Rambam wore what we would call a dress. Pants were invented later.But this does not prevent these self proclaimed Chareidim from causing financial damage by ruining peoples clothing, let alone for these so called baalei mussar, the embarrasment that they cause. Next we move to the marvelous custom of spray painting over ads that were placed at bus stops and elsewhere. Thes ads were payed for and are private property. Anyone who sprays over them is causing a financial loss to the advertiser which he cannot do without a beis din. To this I was again answered with divrei mussar on how terrible iit is that such people go to jail. The essence of civil disobedience is that one has to be willing to take the consequences of one's actions. Otherwise we have chaos. Would these "Chareidim" give a free pass to chilonim who damage a shul because the singing in the shul keeps them awake at night, or is offensive to them? Law must protect everyone equally or it protects no one at all. Finally we moved to the issue of how is anyone entitled to do anything without a sh'ealt Rav, asking permission from a rabbi. This is a ridiculous question. You don't ask a question unless you have a question. You don't ask the Rav what you should have for dinner. Generally, you won't ask the Rav if uou can make love to your wife, there may be a sh'ailah once and a while, but most of the time you know and you don't ask. Believe me, I know how little I know, but I also know what I do know, and I know I cannot be a baal mussar on your back, only at my own expense. I know that if I follow a beis din when I know that the beis din is wrong, I am responsible, not the beis din. And the case of the philanthropist, just quoted to me by SHTAT SON, was a case where the philanthropist had a relationship with the Rav, so the Rav can speak to him, I have not heard him telling his talmidim to take to the streets and spray paint all women abd dinosaurs on billboards all across Israel. Look, those of you that are still reading, these so called "chareidim" use to be know by another name, BULLVANS, they answer to know one and everyone, even the "Gedolim" are physically afraid of them. They operate out of needs that come from there own psychopathology and will keep on doing so until they are confronted by those who will be fearless enough to stand up to them. To those of you who watched movies, think of Gregory Peck facing down the mob at the courthouse in To Kill a Mocking Bird. I do know that Rav Moshe, who left his phone on all nite in case of emrgencies, got phone calls at three and four o'clock in the morning from people who did not like a psak of his. You want to call the "chareidim, that's your opinion. I call them Jewish terrorists.


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147. Rabbi Horowitz:     12/11/07 - 11:44 AM
Anonymous

The criticism regarding the holocaust, #106, was left in place because, generationally, we are all survivors and chazal say that "we do not to judge a person in the time of his suffering". Would you fault a survivor who spoke out in pain against one who counseled him to stay in Europe rather than emigrate?)

See volume one of Michtav M'Eliyahu, p. 75, first paragraph, where R' Dessler addresses someone who ask why the European gedolim did not urge Jews to emigrate to Palestine and avoid annihilation. He says it is forbidden to hear things like this, all the more so, to say them.


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148. Shame on you #13 PM     4/14/09 - 9:32 PM
Elgin Speceal - California

#13 PM: Shame on you. There was no call for violence and never is. If simple matters such as this cannot be resolved, how can we expect anything bigger be resolved in our world. G-d cannot be revealed in an act of violence and revenge. You should be ashamed of your comments and behavior.

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