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Why is this? Why do people assume that someone would just magically "pick up" habits and values that are contrary to what they believe in? Isn't that a bit of a paranoid perspective? What sort of person gives up something they believe in more than anything by just being around and knowing of another individual not believing in it? (The writer admits that the son is not actively doing anything to influence the other kids.)

I believe this view stems from the sad fact that beneath the surface very few chareidi people really, truly want to be frum. They remain frum because they are convinced they have to and because they are convinced its the right thing to do, but if given the chance to get out, they would gladly take it. This is why chareidi life is based so much on the model of keeping any outside "corrupting" influences far, far away. They know so well that inside a frum person, very close to the surface, is the desire to get out, and they have to keep any and all things which might give that desire a voice to express itself or an energy to act, as far away as possible.

No one who values something with any passion is afraid of losing that feeling by just seeing someone else who doesn't share the value. This perspective smacks of a hollow belief. It's the couples who don't have strong loving relationships who are always suspicious of unfaithfulness. Such people see potential betrayal lurking around every corner.

I've seen this reaction so many times - parents don't even want their children to know about the irreligiosity of a relative; the very awareness of it existing needs to be hidden from youngsters. Just the fact that the kid will know that a close relative is not frum is considered potentially damaging! How fragile are these people's faith?

Show me a person who isn't afraid to interact with, and be exposed to, those with values and lifestyles contrary to theirs, and I'll show you a person who has a true confidence in his beliefs. Very few of the chareidi people I know can meet this criteria. And the growth of people going OTD is just a manifestation of this shallow belief.

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I mean, sometimes they're endangering other children's lives, but I still don't know how anyone could do it.

I look at the local children and I don't think I could kick them out of my house, much less my own (iy'h) children.

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1. The writer describes the past efforts at addressing the needs of the at-risk teen as testing and tutors. While I am jumping to a conclusion, it sounds as if the focus was to deal with the academic issues. Many of the professionals working with at-risk youth note that the difficulties a youngster may have with being successful and enjoying school can predispose him/her to at-risk behavior. I share that observation. However, to address only the educational piece and not the rest of the child seems like a waste. It is uncommon that a physician who is visited because of an earache does check the throat or seek other possible symptoms. For starters, this question had me wondering what the parents had done until the child turned 17 years of age.

2. The questioner continues to describe a respectful adolescent who is presently working full time. I was waiting for the punchline (he’s using drugs, stays out all night, has a girl/boyfriend, etc.) but there was nothing stated. Precisely what is the “at-risk” behavior? Is full time employment “at-risk”? For someone who abruptly left yeshiva where he was doing well and integrated into the yeshiva community, fulltime employment at age 17 is anomalous. It would make me wonder, too. But what is the “at-risk” label referring to here? And for that matter, what is the “very” in the parentheses?

3. The question turns to the effect of the at-risk teen on the siblings. This is an important question asked in nearly every case that arises. It is interesting that when there is a situation regarding an individual bochur in yeshiva, the question about the effect on others is answered almost automatically – expel. (My opinions about this have been shared elsewhere, and this is not the appropriate forum for that discussion.) Here, at least, we are dealing with family, and the issue is accepted as worthy of discussion. The reality is that there can be influence on siblings. There are other reactions as well, and parents should seek the guidance to help them recognize the problems and address them. For instance, some parents effectively neglect the other siblings because of the greater attention given to the at-risk child, with all the various issues involved. These siblings can react with their own attention getting schemes, they can emulate the behavior in the hope they will also get the parents’ time and energy, they can fall into patterns of silence and withdrawal, or develop any of an array of medical or psychological symptoms. The worry about the younger children learning from their older brother is legitimate, but the preventive strategy is to insure their retention of our mesorah and values by reaching them at this core level. I do not believe that throwing a child out succeeds in this or gives the younger children the right message (“Violate our rules and out you go.”)

The choices given are asking him to move out. See above. I vote NO (capital letters intentional). Keeping him in the home when he turns his back on all that is held so dear – so what? Allowing him to have food and shelter is not tantamount to rewarding the unapproved lifestyle. The message to the home is that he is ours, and we love him even when not approving of things he does.

There is a serious question about what to tell the other children. This is complicated by the age differences, and that some pieces of information are not appropriate for certain younger ages. This is a tough question to answer in this forum. One needs to know how mature the children’s thinking is. Some could handle much more than others. It is an individual question that the parents should discuss with a professional with experience dealing with young children. There are several master therapists as well as mechanchim who are well qualified to provide guidance.

I was most appalled by the importance given to the opinions of “our friends”. I do not question the intent of these friends to make suggestions to alleviate the pain and suffering of the children and the parents. Most parents I know seek medical advice from friends and extended family before going for professional help. Let’s face it. It’s much cheaper, the advice is coming from someone who has a connection to you or your family and would mean the best for them. However, I would prefer to get the guidance from someone with the qualifications and experience to identify the issues and apply their knowledge appropriately.

Lastly, the writer reported on the stack of mixed messages, among which was “give him an ultimatum”. While there is understandable value to the others, although some confusion as to how to balance them, I found the ultimatum one like fingernails on a chalkboard. It is rare that drastic measures such as this one are fitting. I find it painful that this issue is raised when it seems that the psychological route of helping the teen and working on the family dynamics have not been done yet (as it seems from the question).

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and given the severity of the reaction, I would think that perhaps that is exactly what this teen has done.

and I wouldn't be surprised, given the lack of love evidenced in the question (ie the idea that throwing him out is even on the table) perhaps that would be exactly why he sought it.

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Be honest with your younger children. Tell them that you love their brother and he is family and that is the end of it.

If he wants to move out and find his own place to live let it be his choice. But even then make sure that he knows that he is always welcome.

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I think that we live in these times, and that means we have to be prepared to face some enormous changes while holding onto the ikkarim.

Ikkar number 1: Family is so much more important than friends. Forget the shidduch ramifications for the other kids. Save your son. You can only be mashpia on him TO BE THE BEST HE CAN BE, GIVEN WHERE HE IS UP TO NOW, if he stays at home. He may have made some bad mistakes - but perhaps you made some equally bad ones. Now is the time to rectify as much as possible. DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR SON. He needs you more than ever.

Have a D&M (deep and meaningful conversation) with each of the younger kids and talk about the situation. Explain how nobody is judging, because nobody knows who is truly at fault. Is it his fault that he is now off the derech? Perhaps, and perhaps not. Is it the parents' fault? Perhaps, and perhaps not. Usually, there are a myriad of contributors, some from the present, some from the past.

Tell the kids that you are going to couples' therapy and family therapy to do your bit in rectifying the situation. I hope it is true. Even if you as parents "did everything more or less right" - you obviously didn't, not as far as this kid's chinuch needs were concerned. Why not? I'm sure it was not deliberate, but it happened. FIND OUT WHAT WENT WRONG.

Daven for him. Tell the other kids to too. Ask the other kids how they feel about it. Probably angry, guilty, jealous. Deal with these feelings, by validating them, and try to channel them. Eg if a kid says I'm so angry with my older brother, and with you for not stopping it from happening, you can say: "I'm quite angry too, and it's a very valid reaction. But you know what it means? It means you love him very much and are devastated that he went off. SO let's daven for him. Or it means you're angry because your friends won't like you anymore. Well that's more than valid. But when anger is your reponse instead of explaining to your friends, isn't it a sign that your friends don't like you enough in your own merit? So how can we help you gain confidence and better friendships?

Repeat these conversations week after week until as a family you are all on the same page.

If your son wants to change his name from say Shmuel to Sam, respect him. I can't tell you how much tension arises from parents not calling a child by the name he wants to be called by. To the parent, the Jewish name means Judaism, and affection, and perhaps control. To the child, it means anger, stress, awful experiences, sad youth, etc. Accept that his version of his abused youth is extremely legitimate, and name-change accordinly. You can't go back in time. I'd even say DAVEN for him with his new name. THAT'S WHO HE IS NOW.

Above all, don't mistake a cordial relationship with him, as a sign of him getting on well with his parents. You are SITTING ON A TIME BOMB!!!! I wish I could increase the font size of this, but the formatting options don't work well for me. Seriously, a kid who went off has severe issues with you, his parents, even if neither he nor you is acknowledging them. We have to try to imagine him within his reality, seeing yourself through his eyes, and accept that for him, this is reality. Let's say he is bitter about his youth. So help him not get stuck in his bitterness, for example say: "I know you had a tough youth. I wish I'd known then what I know now. But even now, I am not sure I'm doing things right by the younger kids. Maybe you can give me some inside information about how they feel?".

Or let's say he claims he didn't have a tough youth, or he doesn't want to talk about it. This means he is disassociating. At least try to give time to create a new positive relationship .Eg get him to come out to a meal with you, where you listen to him, with love and interest. Learn the warning signs of anger, eg your words hang in a vaccuum. eg he turns away, etc. Never attempt to have conversations at home (too loaded), and preferably not face to face. eg while driving is sometimes not bad, but he may come to fear drives.

The truth is that he did have a tough youth (we all did!). So he is not talking because he doesn't like or trust you. SO you have to build up the like and trust - not by doing things he likes (that would seem forced) but by trying to STOP SMASHING the illusory world he lives in.

In other words. Start again to make advances as you would a stranger. Very small talk at first. Talk to him where he is. Ask him how his baseball game went. Keep every conversation very short. Like ONE exchange at a time. Even if he starts a conversation, be happy with answering and turning away. That way he'll feel safe to start again. Gradually it may build up to two exchanges.

This is what I mean by entering his world. Because if instead you try to have a long conversation - he's withdrawn even further. In his sadness, he is often only capable of one safe exchange at a time. But gradually have more of them. Many should be non-verbal, eg a raised eyebrow asking his approval, a secret thrown kiss. Look for his non-verbal reply.

This is a non-threatening way to enter his world. With more such conversations, gradually comes a deeper insight, more love can filter through the black cloud.

He's on a journey. He should never have gotten to this point in the first place. Yet, a quick fix doesn't work when in quicksand. Slow and steady pulling, that's what will get him out.

When you became parents you realized you were expected to give up your freedom, your Shabbos walks, your night's sleep, much of your income. Now you are also expected to give up more of your life, your image, and hardest of all, to improve internally. For example, so many of us are stuffing our emotions internally, and to the kid, they feel like they are run over by a steam roller (we obviously aren't stuffing them effectively). So working on being real and open can really change everything, and it's all in your hands! Yes, it means acknowledging all the sadnesses of your youth, your anger, guilt, hatred, worries, jealousy. Let it out.

It's all worth it. A parent-child relationship is second only to husband-wife (and Hashem-human).

I said at the beginning about eikev. I didn't mean chas vesholom that nowadays it's ok to have relationships with girls. No way. What I meant is that now we are suddenly dropped bombshells like "we are such a wonderful family, so over-acheiving, and now suddenly THIS??? He's ruined our whole image". It wasn't just an image. If you were an over achieving family, the odds are that you are a very good family, striving to do well by Hashem. Hashem is giving you the opportunity to rectify something at base level that went amiss. The playing field suddenly tipped 90 degrees! Grab the chance! This too is a test designed with love, to help you.

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These are the best words I've ever read about this topic. Kol Hakovod, Nechama! I think so many parents forget this. Educators do too. This child is on a journey. This isn't "what he wants", or "what he is". This--whatever it is--is what he is doing. Where he is going is far from determined. And if it is about clothes choice, music choice, working instead of learning, etc. all that is far less important than issues of Mentchlechkeit. If he does not openly disrespect the parent at home and he is not openly Mechalel Shabbos (Nisyonos that many parents must face) then I agree with all who commented here. I hope he can stay at home. I do acknowledge that it must be complicated for younger children, but complicated is not insurmountable. I would hope that these parents will get the specific advice they need from those who tread this path before them and chose to keep their teenager at home. It is heartwarming to read the responses given here.

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The remark that talking to a girl is “the worst crime a boy can do nowadays” prompts many a comment. I’ll share one.

We have succeeded quite well in reversing the truly important with the trivial. We have relegated midos tovos to the back burner, to be addressed from the purely intellectual perspective. We have made the chumros of the week-month-year into the hallmarks of our progression and advances in avodas Hashem. Our fast food establishments have hechsherim that focus on cholov yisroel, yoshon, bedikas tolaim, glatt, etc. None of them purport to have implemented strategies to prevent them from becoming havens for those who wish to “hang out” and mingling of the genders. None of them have hechsherim that address business practices that exclude ona’ah, ribis, gezaila, etc. Our mosdos do well in honoring those who either give or bring in money. Few address those that generate a reputation for the mosad as contributing to the klal, unless there is an accompanying dollar sign.

One might say that our yeshivos interpret avodas Hashem, insofar as there is an obligation for chinuch, as being the encyclopedic growth of the young mind. We are all familiar with the value of a good database, but none of us could function without other tools. Again, the confusion of the ikar and the tofel.

The development of relationships with the other gender is a statement. However, we need to hear the message before rushing to judge it as a “worst crime”.

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if a boy and girl are pairing off around sixteen, treating each other respectfully and avoiding being alone together/touching each other (or sincerely trying and taking steps to prevent such) and generaly treating it with the gravity it deserves, thats one thing.

If they're just trying to mess around with everyone that they can find, that's another entirely, although I will freely admit to being quite biased in this matter.

but I also think that in anycase we need to look at the problem as less of a crime and more of a teenagers solution to a problem. the question then becomes, "what is said problem?" (most frum teens, at least in my observation, don't go actualy looking for the opposite sex until something is already wrong.)

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Just to expand a bit on the way you stated it, each and every behavior that youth at risk manifest is a statement. We are troubled because we do not understand their language. Those of us who work extensively with teens have some degree of understanding of this foreign language.

I must revert to an experience I had running a group for outpatient drug addicts some years ago. A newcomer to the group was a black gentleman in his 60’s. He had been incarcerated for more than 35 years for a series of major crimes, all related to his addiction. He was recently paroled, just a mere 8 months before his prison sentence would be complete. I read his chart from the intake assessment, and I discovered that his drug screen was positive for heroin, his drug of choice. The drug screen he took that night was also positive. Though he was new, I confronted him about his relapse into drugs immediately upon leaving prison. I was actually wondering how he could take such chances, knowing that he would go directly back to state prison. This gentleman replied, “I am a drug addict. I used drugs throughout my prison term, though I won’t tell you details of how I smuggled drugs into my cell. I never stopped, and I won’t stop now either.” When I told him that I was mandated to share this information with his parole officer, he was nonchalantly agreeable. He did not even seem to take it seriously. After all, all that could happen was that he would be sent back to “max out” his sentence for the remaining 8 months. This was no big deal, considering he had spent more than half his life there. Following the group, all left, but three other black group members stayed late and asked to talk to me. They told me, “You missed an opportunity. You did not hear his message. He was not dismissing his drug use as trivial. He was asking you to help him because he does not know how to stop. He said it in a manner that befits a prison inmate, but that has been his life.”

I must say, they were right. And it does not only pertain to convicted felons in prison. When our kids are in terrific pain, their manner of communication – by action – can be puzzling. They can seem disrespectful, rebellious, and oppositional. If we are to have any positive impact on them, we need to be capable of hearing the real message they are telling us. Some of these messages include:

“I need boundaries and limits.” “I want to be close to you.” “I want to love and be loved.” “I need someone to listen to me.” “I feel like a failure.” “I need some approval from you.” “I need someone to notice me.” “I feel rejected.”

One can easily add to this list. I just rattled off a few of the obvious ones. We are given many chances to hear their messages. If we could only understand their language.

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I don't understand your comment (#11). Food establishments ("fast" or otherwise) have hechsherim because otherwise, frum people won't eat in them. Frum people need to know that a rav ha'machshir has established that the food is kosher. So what are you saying? That the owner of a store that sells food should be responsible for the behavior of the people in his store? Perhaps he should hire people assigned to make sure that customers say brachos, before and after eating and don't gaze at women? What was that you meant by the references to Choshen Mishpat type sins? That I, the customer, should ask the rav ha'machshir to examine the owner's books to ensure they are kept honestly? Why? And why do you think that honesty is more important that kashrus?

Are you suggesting that mosdos shouldn't fundraise or that when someone gives a donation, they shouldn't thank him and honor him for the purpose of bringing in more money so the mosad can remain open? This is trivial? What is meant by a mosad that contributes to the klal? What mosad, supported by tzedaka, does NOT contribute to the klal?

Why not a direct answer to yoni that says that there is no such thing as boy and girl interacting, platonically, for long, and that halacha warns strongly against such relationships and that all sorts of sins are involved?

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Please, I'll graciously wait.

and where does classical halacha warn against it? modern heredi halachaists do, but even rav moshe stated that "I am in doubt as to whether such an issur exists at all, and am leaning on the side that it does not." (orech chayim 1, teshuva 41) (which is later than his teshuva in which he assets otherwise.)

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This child is respectful, responsible, and doing what he can do best at this stage of life, which is to work. You have a good relationship with him. Why would you want to jeopordize that in any way? He respects Shabbos and kashrus in your home so he doesn't disrupt the family atmosphere.

And what would Rov Pam say? He would tell you NOT to throw this child out. How do I know that? Because I went to him with a similar shailah regarding my second oldest son who was also a school dropout, who'd adopted an English street name (and, Nechama, I stayed involved with him every step of the way but I did not refer to him by that name. We are still very close), who couldn't hold down a job, who no longer put on tfillin, davened, or kept kashruth or Shabbos outside of my home, and who used drugs, and nevertheless Rov Pam advised me at that time NOT to throw him out. Kal v'chomer I can't even begin to imagine that Rov Pam, a true Godol Hador, would even entertain the notion that you should throw him out.

Have the courage (easier said than done) to stand by ALL your children. Certainly daven. And know you will increase the odds that he will come back if you keep that door open for him. If our tafkid is to emulate Hashem, then remember that we don't want Him to throw us out when we waver. Do the same.

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I am responding defensively to the questions posed.

No one is minimizing lavin from the Torah, chas veshalom. However, our reactions as parents and mechanchim to children (above bar mitzvah) are appropriate within the context of chinuch as giving rebuke – tochacha. I will quote (translation mine) from the Mesilas Yeshorim (Perek 20):

“The Torah commanded us ‘Hochayach tocheyach es amisecho’, and sometimes a person will approach sinners in a place or time that his words will not be heeded, and he causes them to transgress more in their evil and to be mechalel Hashem to add to their sin rebelliousness. In such a situation, it is not consistent with the midoh of chassidus only to be silent.”

The response to our children’s behavior must be calculated to have an effect, and not to provoke them to dig themselves deeper into their problem behaviors. I consider shmiras Shabbos and kashrus very dear. If rebuking a child will only lead to his defensiveness and increased rebellion, it is not a mitzvah. Peruse the rest of that perek in the Mesilas Yeshorim, as he discusses the role of tochacha, how precious it is, and how it is predicated by the reasonably predicted outcome.

It has been observed by many on this site and others that a fundamental issue for at risk youth is the hypocrisy they observe in our adult community. I personally do not believe it is the issue that originated the “at risk” behavior, but it contributes nicely to the progression and rebellion. The comment about food establishments was not in relation to the youth, but a general issue. It should be as important that halachos of Cheshen Mishpat are followed as those of kashrus. Yet, we pay little attention to honesty, and dismiss the infractions as “all in a day’s work”. Perhaps a hechsher on an establishment should involve business practices. In Eretz Yisroel, my favorite falafel shop had lost its hechsher from the Badatz of the Eidah Hacharedis when the mashgiach saw women sitting down with men (specifically listed on the poster with the hechsher as prohibited). We should have these other issues in mind, and keep everything in context.

As far as mosdos recognizing the non-income bearing honorees, this is an old observation, and has been somewhat rectified by several yeshivos. The father that spends sedorim with his son in the yeshiva bais hamedrash weekly may not be recognized, while the father that pays full tuition and has wealthy friends is a more likely honoree. That is great for fundraising, but the message to the talmidim is damaging. And I repeat my opinion that everything a yeshiva or mechanech does needs to be consistent with proper chinuch.

Boruch Hashem there are many kollelim out of town whose yungerleit are integral to the community, whether assuming functions as melamdim, mohalim, magidei shiur, etc. within their host city. In metropolitan areas such as New York, Monsey, Lakewood, some of these tasks may be unneeded. However, there is still much that can and should be done. This is in no way intended to minimize their learning. It is intended to highlight the roles of “lelamed, lishmor, ve’la’asos” of our sincerest tefilos. Not all of our mosdos do this, and they do not claim to do so. It is a responsibility of every yeshiva and every bochur who is capable to create as much Kiddush Hashem as possible, even if it is only giving a weaker bochur some additional time to help him keep up with the rest, or tutoring a younger bochur who needs the help.

The boy-girl relationships are serious issues. However, as noted above from the Mesilas Yeshorim, this is one where the direct approach of admonishing and forbidding it will only lead to the pair taking their friendship underground, and likely to extend their rebelliousness. As noted, one needs to consider the outcome when attempting to address the problem.

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The commenter (#15) simply pointed out that you made a factual error regarding one point. Being that these comments are written on a public blog with a varied audience, Mitzvah observant folk should be careful not to provide misleading information.

You wrote:

"We have made the chumros of the week-month-year into the hallmarks of our progression and advances in avodas Hashem. Our fast food establishments have hechsherim that focus on cholov yisroel, yoshon, bedikas tolaim, glatt, etc"

By including tolaim- the eating of insects, in the "chumrah of the week" phrase, you have made a serious error. This does not take away from the excellent content of your comments, but does need to be corrected.

Thank you for reading this.

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Nor is yoshon a chumra. It's required in Eretz Yisrael. As for grain grown outside the Land of Israel, it is a subject of debate among halakhic authorities.

Glatt is a requirement for Sefardim, not a chumra.

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it's not that those who observe it are being machmir, quite the contrary

indeed, enough ignorance please, your often rude comments are not appreciated by the reader of this blog

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5760/vayikra.html

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he states clearly and unconvalutably that it is mutar for everyone, at any time in the united states.

Please read the teshuva before commenting what you heard.

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If we take addressing teenager issues seriously, we can also take eating insects seriously. This is not a Kashrut blog. Therefore, I agree with tb, who wrote, "This blog should not entertain comments regarding Halacha of any kind, either way".

My understanding of Mr. Twersky is that he is an Orthodox individual, and therefore should not have made the error of treating the eating of insects so cavalierly. Indeed, this blog should not entertain comments regarding halachah. And if one sees fit to do so (such as referring to insect eating as chumrah instead of halachah in the effort to make a point regarding something else), and makes a serious error that can potentially mislead those less knowledgeable, one should write an immediate retraction, and then move on back to the thread's theme.

Halachah or Kashrut is not the point of this blog or this thread. Nevertheless, if one feels an absolute need to refer to matters of halachah (such as insect eating), even in making an analogy, please ensure that comments are consistent with Torah guidelines.

Again, this does not detract from Mr. Twersky's otherwise excellent points.

Please, this was a simple comment to Mr. Twersky to address an inadvertent error- please let's not get into issues of rudeness, relevancy, or the like.

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I was not referring to the “kashrus” issues as chumros. Those are halachos, some of which involve differences among poskim. I was pointing out that the choices of which halachos to follow are rather interesting, and that we, as a community, have prided ourselves with advancements that leave our younger generation wondering whether there is any seriousness to it. I won’t repeat it all here. But be aware that these were separate parts of a sentence, and I did not think they would be confused. Choshen Mishpat is also halacha, as is lashon hara, etc. Our derech must consider the transmission to the next generation, and my accusation at our community is that we are not doing this well enough to prevent the problems we observe in our children.

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Assuming this post was true and accurate, I would urge the parents to sit down with an experienced and dedicated professional who is very familiar with their situation, and knows the 'players', before deciding on what may be a matter of life and death for a 17 year old, who is legally a minor.

What are the "very" at-risk behaviors involved? If, for example, the teen is buying and selling drugs, that's one issue. If he is merely getting up late for minyan, and the parents view that as being "very at-risk," then the problem may lie more in the parents than in the child.

If this was a multiple-choice question, the correct answer would be "Need More Information."

Such information would include the findings of professionals who have evaluated the child, to determine what is causing the child's behavior, educators who know the child well, a rabbi who knows the family well, etc. A depressed teen could be endangered and at risk of suicide if he is suddenly shown the door, for example.

A teen who is clearly engaging in "very at risk" behaviors, such as heavy illicit drug use, has to be dealt with by professionals. A teen who is testing the limits and searching for his / her identity, perhaps by not fully observing every stringency in Judaism, would be in another category altogether.

So, we need more information.

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I address your very valid point in my response.

I normally post my response within one week. This time, however, I decided to post the question and my response in my regular mishpacha space. I need to wait until this weeks issue hits the newsstands on wednesday to post it.

yakov

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Troubled Anon The parents addressed their question to Rabbi H and there is quite a lot of info there. Parenting forums are a great resource for parents who want to remain ' anon' and benefit from parental expereince. A poll on a parenting forum ( thousands of parents ) said that ' BTDT parents ' been there , done that were the most helpful in helping their kids , better than profesionals. It is amazing when professionals themselves come to these forums and say ' I deal with challenging kids all day ' , now that I have my own I am completely helpless. IMHO there are some professionals who don't have a clue what parents or kids are going through. I do however recommend going to a professional but I qualify that - choose a professional who has a view that children ' do well if they can ' and not children do well if they want to. Parenting forums are very useful to parents in the learning process and I really appreciate when professionals who are also parents join in the discussion. I am looking forward to learning from you 'Anon'

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"A person must stay very, very far away from women. It is forbidden to wink at a woman .. to joke, to gaze at her beauty, to smell her perfume .. if one gazes at even her little finger with the intention of taking pleasure from it, his sin is very great..."

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like most people, you've completely butchered it.

it lists what is forbiden, and all of them are examples of flirting. This is further bolstered by the saifa which mentions gazing (not looking!) specificaly for the purpose of pleasure.

secondly, there is segnificant evidence to show that this is strictly in reference to married women, not single women. (the greeting law, for instance.) (which would be why it is in the section in the big shulchan aruch called "ishus" or refering to the quality of being a married woman.

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second, is smelling perfume an example of flirting?

third, what do you think happens when a girl and a boy, or woman and man talk to one another when it's not strictly tachlis? no flirting?

fourth, are you saying then, that the halacha says it's okay to flirt with and gaze at single women?

fifth, the halacha about regards to a wife is obviously about a married woman

the paragraph that precedes it is about any female. If you think otherwise, I'd love to know which rav permits flirting among singles.

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Why? because halachicaly one cannot marry a married woman. One can, however, marry someone who is not married.

secondly, no, boys and girls do not necesserily flirt with each other when it isn't strictly tachlis.

Why should they?

such irrational reactions are entirely uncalled for.

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Granted in the kitzur the distiction is not so clear, but in the shulchan aruch it is much more so (granted that the who chapter is dedicated to rules about people's wives).

Secondly, you would have to justify why the shulchan aruch does not expressly instead state that "talking to a woman is assur, and even looking at her." Which, sense poskim generaly use as few words as possible, this would have been much easier to relate than to give a whole list of particular prohabitions.

additionaly, smelling the perfume, while not strictly flirting, is accessory to being imtimately close to her, and therefore brings about the same danger.

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"Why should they?"

Because they're normal males and females.

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it is discussing his psak in his bayis chadash on the subject of mixed seating at weddings.

and since he says outright that one can have sinfull thoughts about married women, we cannot conclude that he is saying that the men will not have purient thoughts, only that these thoughts, when about single women, are evidently not sinfull.

and no, the normal way of men and women is not to flirt with everyone they see, and thos whom they do flirt with it is their nature to get married. (hence the psak about pas akum. they did not state that they were afraid of the boy sleeping with her, they said marrying her, which indicates that their view of normal behavior is a desire to get married.

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I'll be happy to listen.

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IMHO , having a kid leave home might be in the best interests of a child if the alternative placement would meet the child's needs and help him with his challenges more adequately than the present home situation. When this is done ' working with the child', the relationship can actually improve as the parent is working to help the child , not make their lives and the other siblings easier.

Unconditional Love - Rav H' , you use this term a lot in your writings. Most parents believe they love for their children is unconditional and also believe that their children know and perceive that their parent's love is unconditional. The truth is and what counts is your child's perception of not only your love but how accepting are you of him , does he feel you are disappointed in him if he does not meet your expectations or falls , is your relationship an economic one , contingent on his performance - the need to earn priveleges, withdrawing priveleges , rewarding and punishing , your love is conditional. Parents are told that you must punish out of love and are convinced that they can unconditionally love a child , shower him with love and warmth and at the same time reward and punish. What counts here is a child's perception that not matter how they behave or don't meet our expectations , they feel we care about them , understand them , respect them and love them. The question is not whether we love our kids but how we love them. I recommend looking into Unconditional Parenting - UP by Alfie Kohn http://www.alfiekohn.org/up/content/excerpt.asp see - interview and book excerpt

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Dishonesty: my parents ‘covered up’ for the a.r.t.(at-risk teen) – no one was allowed to ‘know’ – at family events everything had to ‘look right’. Even within our home, it was assumed we were blind to the hour the a.r.t came home or the arguments that took place behind closed doors even though we picked it all up.

Attention: They further showed ‘favoritism’ and gave the a.r.t. whatever they wanted, just to ‘keep’ them, without giving us the the reason why, which translated to us as: the a.r.t’s importance superceded ours. Whenever that a.r.t had some traumatic crisis, everyone else’s crisis took second place. As adults , ultimately that a.r.t began to expect the world revolve around them, or else. As we grew up, we learned the exact opposite. No one learned from this a.r.t., we had our own minds, but the resentment over parents’ attention lingers still.

As parents, be loving , be honest, be fair.

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I am glad that this move worked out for #43. It can be a positive change if it handled properly. I am often asked by parents if the child should be thrown out. Even that drastic option is sometimes, though rarely indicated. Unless there is danger involved, I usually vote against “throwing out”. Yet, parents often raise the question, and I accept this as a statement of their frustration and anger, not intentions.

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Rabbi Horowitz has described it briliiantly. We must love our children "no matter what" because they are our children. We may not love what they do, what they wear, how they behave, but they are our children and we love them. I will give the speach that I have given at least a hundred times already:

Hashem tests everyone in different ways. Our children are going through their own nisyonos and we don't know why, and in most cases we don't understand what they are going through. We also seem to miss the point that they are not alone. We are also being tested. Yes this is also a nisayon for us, the parents, the siblings, the neighbors, aunts, uncles, cousins, Rebbeim, teachers, administrators, and friends. What are we going to do about our children? And when I say "our" children I want you to understand that if it is happening to your neighbor's biological child it is still "our" children because he/she is a member of Klal Yisroel and "Kol Yisroel Arevim Zeh LaZeh".

So each and every one of us are also being tested by Hashem. We are each going through a Nisayon and most of us don't seem to get it. What are we doing about these children in pain? Do we throw them out? Do we ask them to leave because they are not living up to our expectations or following our rules? Do we give up on them? After 120 how do we explain that to Hashem when we stand and give our Din V'cheshbon?

As a mother you have the right instincts and your son has obviously been raised remarkably well. You did an excellent job because although he is on this dark journey he is not rubbing it in your face. He seems to be responsible and accountable and he does not wish to share or spread his pain to you or his siblings. He obviously loves all of you very much. Why would you want to ask him to leave and add more pain to his burden? Why would you want to break his heart? What purpose would that serve? Would it make your neighbors more comfortable?

This is an issue between Hashem and Him. When your husband stood up at his Bar Mitzvah and said "Boruch ShePatrani" he turned him over to Hashem and said the two of you must form your own relationship. Right now that relationship is a little rocky. But Hashem is in control, they will work things out eventualy at the right pace and at the right time. But if you throw him out where will he go when that happens?

Everyone needs a support system and that does not necessarily mean money. Support comes in many different ways. Everyone needs support in their own way and some people need more or less at various times in their lives. Parents in the parsha need as much support as their children during this difficult journey. One thing that needs to be understood and it is a very difficult concept. You have to separate your pain from your son's pain because it has nothing to do with you. It is not about you and he is not doing it to hurt you. When we realize this it is easier to deal with the outside world.

The next step is to realize that loving your children and explaining to the rest of your children that your son is going through a nisayon and that "He" is responsible and accountable for his actions. But that does not mean that you love him any less. Your love is unconditional for all your children because you are "parents" and each one of your children are gifts from Hashem. Also that you have Bitachon in Hashem that whatever is troubling your son, he will work it out with him and eventually, you don't know how long it will take because Hashem is in charge and he gives each of us different nisyonos, but eventually there will be a good outcome.

As far as your friends, neighbors, and relatives are concerned you have to remember how much you love your child and never ever be embarrassed or ashamed of him. He can't be the white elephant in the room. You can't control anyone but yourself, you can't control what your son does any more than you can control what anyone else thinks about him, so the best you can do for yourself is love your child and not care what anyone else thinks.

If your son knows that you love him with all your heart and soul it will help the healing process, it will give him the confidence to work out his issues, it will not allow him to look for excuses to "blame" his parents for his issues or to self-medicate (if he is not doing that already) because his pain is just to unbearable.

One little note to "Yoni". This particular parsha is a very difficult one and this "sheilah" was very heartbreaking. Each time I hear this question it breaks my heart and tears at my soul. Using this forum to have a halachic boxing match with Rabbi Twersky was totally inappropriate. It was terribly insensitive to try to devert attention to your halachic expertise instead of allowing the comments to be focused on the very important topic and to give the writer the utmost support and assistance that she deserved.

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Make sure that whenever he does something good that's above and beyond, that he gets some acknowledgement for it. Make it heartfelt but matter-of-fact, and don't go overboard with it. Part of the point he's making is that he's not a kid anymore. If it's appropriate, let the other kids see it. Make sure he knows that if he acts like a mentsch you respect him for it. Actually, you should be encouraging him to leave -- by encouraging him to pursue training that will improve his earning ability at honest work. Make sure that he knows you respect honest work. Let your other kids see that.

Also, even though the "problem" may be one child, don't forget the other kids. Just because they're not acting out in a bigger way, doesn't mean they don't need time with you.

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Having a 15-and-a-half year old son with a similar story, I could have written this letter almost word for word. The only difference is that my son has not taken (and we hope he never will take) the final step into complete irreligiosity.

R' Twersky writes that it sounded like the parents only addressed the educational aspects when the child was growing up and didn't address the at-risk part. First of all, in our case as in many, this is our oldest child. We did not know the at-risk statistics or think that our son, who has a minor learning disability but has genius potential, needed anything more than some extra help to get around his learning disability. My son has a wonderful personality and is very kind and good-natured and makes friends easily. We did not know that the frustration he was dealing with in his learning would translate into a child who lost motivation to even try and eventually to becoming an at-risk teen. We kept him in schools where we could be involved in his chinuch and with his teachers, we gave him tutors to help him get ahead of his disability, and although he wasn't getting very far in his learning, he wasn't rebelling or upset and was still a well-behaved, very likeable person. It was only right before his bar mitzvah that we saw that he was starting to gravitate toward bad friends in the neighborhood and he started being openly disdainful of some religious practices. At that time, we got him a mentor who has a lot of experience with working with at-risk teens (which we thought was overkill, but couldn't hurt). With so many kids out there today labeled with minor learning disabilities, how many parents who DO know the statistics would give their child psychological help or take other active preventative measures before the child even showed signs of being at-risk -- unless they have already had the experience with another of their children? Is it really fair to blame these parents for not having done so?

R' Twersky, you asked what the "(very) at-risk" behavior was. The buzz in the responses after that ranged from the parents overreacting to the child not davening/putting on tefillin to having relationships with girls and doing drugs. Well, if this 17-year-old is anything like my son, (who I would label with the same "(very) at risk" label) he might be stealing, lying, watching violent and X-rated movies that he procures from "street friends", disappearing for hours at a time, etc. So no, he has not yet tried drugs, and no, he says he is not interested in having a girlfriend right now. But should I not consider him "very at risk" because some of his "good" friends do and they are feeding him everything they know and he is swallowing it like candy?

As far as the effect of the at-risk teen on siblings, I find that one of the hardest things to deal with is making the other teens in the house understand with their hearts that this teen has another set of rules. Oh, sure, we have had many deep and serious discussions about the fact that their older brother is hurting and he is like a handicapped person or someone in a bad mood, so we have to "humor" him and not burden him too much and just show him a tremendous amount of love and care so that he knows that he is an integral part of our family and without him a piece would be missing. However, what are you supposed to say to a 14 year old who is on-track religiously is in a bad mood and asks, "Why do I have to wear my hat and jacket for mincha -- it's so cumbersome?!" when his 15 year old brother is sitting on the couch and doesn't even go to mincha. When there is someone in the house who doesn't follow the rules, it has its effects on the other children -- even if just to show them "there is such a situation when one is excused from following rules". It also makes it a lot harder for the parents to appear to the other teens in the house as being fair to everyone. Teens tend to measure things by their own individual rulers -- and by them, everyone gets measured with the same ruler. However, parents ideally should be measuring each child with a different ruler -- "al pi darko".

One last thing, there was one comment that Nechama made that really bothered me. She wrote: "Even if you as parents "did everything more or less right" - you obviously didn't, not as far as this kid's chinuch needs were concerned. Why not? I'm sure it was not deliberate, but it happened. FIND OUT WHAT WENT WRONG."

We have spoken to any number of proffessionals and laymen and if there is one thing that everyone agrees it is that many (most?) times the parents are not at fault. Would you blame Yitzchak Avinu for having a son who came out like Eisav? Chazal tell us that both Eisav and Yaakov had equal opportunity -- they both got the same chinuch. Today, there are so many teens at risk. Much of the problem could be solved here in eretz yisrael if the educational system was willing to change and if our chareidi chug would be willing to do something different for these kids. Unfortunately, the basic consensus among the rabbonim here is that until a child is off the derech he cannot be taught anything other than limudei kodesh. Our chug cannot face the fact that some kids are just not made out to be kollel yungermen. And, since these kids want to fit in and be respected as much as their peers, they feel ashamed to even think of getting and education that would allow them to get an upstanding job which would make them "second class citizens". My son is still adamant that gemara is his favorite subject although he hasn't opened one in more than a year! These kids are going through teenagerhood with all that that entails at the same time that they are discovering that they are considered the "failures" of our society and that there is another society out there where they can feel successful. They only want to meet their basic needs: to fit-in and feel respected, happy, and successful! We, as parents without a tremendous lump of cash and resources cannot create such an environment. The only thing we CAN do is nurture our relationship with our children so that they still have an anchor. We can show them and instill in them the knowledge that we will always love them and accept them no matter what.

I also beg to differ with Nechama on her statement: "A kid who went off has severe issues with you, his parents, even if neither he nor you is acknowledging them." This is not true. Recently, we asked my son to write a list of the things that he would want to change in his learning environment that would make it ideal. We also asked him to make a list of the things he would want to change at home to make his home ideal. He came up with 10 serious issues on his yeshivah list (e.g., there should be at least one staff member who he can talk to and will understand him), but could only come up with 3 superficial items on his home list (e.g., the house should be neater). When he gave me the lists, he said that he felt it wasn't fair that I asked him to write a list of the things that he didn't like at home without asking him to write a list of the things he liked at home. So, while I would agree that my son has serious issues with his religiosity and with his outside-the-home environment, a child who turns to his parents for love and feels comfortable in his own home, though he may not always agree with his parents, most probably does not have "severe issues" with his parents.

What statistics have shown, baruch Hashem, is that kids who do feel comfortable at home, and have that good relationship with their parents that this person describes, most often do return to yiddishkeit as well. This is our nechamah for watching our son go through this difficult period of unhappiness and not really being able to do much more than daven hard as we just stand by and watch and try to kiss his tears away.

Chizku v'amtzu!

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Kit - Thanks for sharing your experience . I think kids feel that fair does not mean equal and that some kids need more attention than others. Raising and living with a challenging kid is incredibly stressful for the whole family. It often means that the family can no longer socialize or go out to places as a family , besdides the constant stress and living in a dysfunctional family. This causes resentment by siblings to the parents and the challenging kid. I don't believe the whole family must go under because of one kid and an alternative placement which would serve the interests of the challenging kid , whether for eg a foster home, Therapeutic boarding schools, Residential treatment centers. Ideally one should have family therapy , individual therapy , mentoring , maybe meds and try to deal with problems , worrking with the kid , could be violence and stealing issues as well, before finding a placement and of course the most important thing is action with Tefilah

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We all need to feel like we are trying our best but at the same time to always strive to find a new road that might help. Homeschooling would definitely be a better option for our son and for many others in his yeshivah. In fact, he is constantly nudging us to take him out of school and let him stay home. Many of us would consider this if we knew of such "volunteer tutors" as you mentioned or an organization that offers such services for a nominal fee. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think such a thing exists for boys in this country -- let alone in the Yerushalayim area. Like most large families here, we do not have anywhere close to the budget it would take to homeschool him and pay full tutoring fees.

In addition, in order to make up for the lack of social "chevre" in a homeschooling program, he would also need to have a full-time mentor-mashgiach-friend who could help him get past and far away from the garbage his current friends are teaching him that is pulling him down into a pit. This person would also have to instill in him an excitement for his learning -- whatever he may be learning with his tutors. In order to be happy, every teenager needs to believe in what he is doing and be excited about how he fills his time, and they can only believe in the things they see themselves succeeding at. As mature adults, we can force ourselves to overcome the need for excitement in our jobs and daily lives when necessary, but that ability only comes with true maturity. Many of these kids have lost faith in their scholastic achievement, and to say that they are not excited about book learning would be the understatement of the year. To fill the void, they get excited about other things. In my son's case, that would be movies and soccer. And here is where he becomes at-risk -- both religiously and as a person. Because he knows that regardless of how well his family accepts him, within religious circles he will never be accepted as a "success" with these interests and goals. So, he has no other choice but to turn to the society that will look up to him for his social nature and agree with his priorities along with ignoring his scholastic failures. In my opinion, the ideal solution would be to create a system within our religious society that would look up to and accept him for his character and good nature despite and without degrading him for his interests and priorities -- with the long-term goal of changing them to something more in-tune with being a "Torah im derech eretz" type of Yid. This should not be an embarrassing thing!!! It would also demand a switch in the way our society views men who go out to work in non-chinuch-related jobs. (Hey, some of the biggest talmidei chachamim in past generations where cobblers and carpenters!) These kids need to see that they don't have to go all the way to the other side and throw away everything that they know and grew up with in order to gain a feeling of acceptance.

If anyone has any viable suggestions, I know a whole slew of parents who would be infinitely grateful!

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and, given such general statements as are present here, coupled with the assertion that he's otherwise a good kid, I tend to think based on what I've learned through experience, that the one thing that will singlehandedly earn a kid the "at risk" lable. is hanging around girls, or having a girlfriend, even if you're not trying to be promiscuous at all.

granted chana's treatment of the issue is certainly better than mine, but generaly my first response is to respond to what I see as a likely issue that could push someone to be at risk, without pushing them to drugs etc.

oh, and chana, if you want to address the needs of your teen, get a list of shulchan aruch, perkei avos and shulchan aruch quotes about the necessity of teaching a child a trade, and the evils of not persuing a trade. My suspicion is that for a child like that the self righteousness of doing what the gemorah says even though so many others are not doing what it says may well be enough to tip the scales vis a vis the childs occupying himself in something usefull. Also pointing out that if he does well in his studies, goes to college or something, and comes out a frum yid and gets a reasonably paying job, he will be the one people will be turning to for help.

either one of those may feed his ego in a way that will at the very least make certain that your child is busy, occupied and off the streets.

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It sounds like he wants other friends but is afraid of rejection, and maybe you could mitigate that. especialy as you said he doesn't seem to be sabotoging anyone elses yiddishkeit.

it just sounds to me like he needs a friend who'll accept him for who he is. (and if he enjoys gemorah so much, I'll bet he has a good head for it, maybe he is just struggling with the language, and giving him an arameic and a hebrew grammar might help him? I mean, I really don't know, but perhaps it might help, I've known plently of others who couldn't learn gemorah because they couldn't figure out the language just by having it read to them.)

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Example - a person is at risk of getting killed if they cross Ocean Parkway against the light on a busy day, but that's not equivalent to being hit by a car!

"At risk" in our discussions means that a child has some factors working against him that make it more likely that they will abandon religious practice.

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Are you saying then, that Rabbi Horowitz and Dr. Twerski, for example, are not people to turn to unless their own children have given them grief and have gone off the derech or have almost done so?

It is not about you and he is not doing it to hurt you.

Do you know the person who asked the question? How do you know it's not about them? How do you know it's not to hurt them? Whether hurting them is his conscious goal or not, he has to be aware that they are hurt.

you have to remember how much you love your child and never ever be embarrassed or ashamed of him

Is that reasonable? Is that normal? You think a parent should be just as proud of their irreligious child as of their religious child, both of whom were raised in a frum home?

and I don't think your chastising Yoni was at all appropriate

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To # 59 M, Rabbi Horowitz and Rabbi Twerski have been working with children and parents for years. They have done something that other Rebbeim and therapists have not yet accomplished and that is to "listen to understand". That is a great accomplishment and there is something else that they have accomplished. They use Torah values of heart, compassion, kindness, warmth, generosity of spirit and soul. They leave the judging to Hashem and they take their job of "Ovdei Hashem" seriously. They truly understand that the job Hashem entrusted to them as "crisis intervention" counselors is to assist children and families with these very serious issues and not to judge them. With the tools that the Torah has given them and with the training that they sought in programs and schools, they have combined the best of what was taught them to work with children and families in the parsha. So although your post comes from an aspect of another "judgmental Jew", I am not offended I chalk it up to a lack of knowledge and understanding.

In the same vein let me address the issue of "Judgmental Jews who hold themselves holier than thou". This parsha can challenge anyone. It does not hit the poorest of the poor nor the lowest on the learning level. Hashem tests anyone and everyone. Boys and Girls in the parsha come from the poorest homes and the wealthiest of homes. They come from the most modern homes and the most chareidi homes. They come from the most simple homes and homes from the most well known and famous Rebbeim of our time. It can happen to a child from the most dysfunctional home to the most solid home. Hashem tests anyone he chooses to test.

Many people ask me why this happens. Aside from the explanation that I give above, people want something more tangible. So for those who had the nerve to judge the writer and take issue with her parenting skills I will share with you what I share with others.

Children have the two legs Hashem gave them and each one of them are firmly planted, one in the foundation of the home and the other in the foundation of the school/yeshiva. If there is a crack in either of these foundations their world starts to crumble. Parents and Educators must form an aliance and partnership for the wefare of the child. If that is not established from day one, and if it is not about the child from day one keep your eyes open for problems down the road.

For anyone who is looking to play the blame game there is no point unless you want to go back to the day the child was born. The point is "you" do not live in "their" home. You have no idea what their story is, so you have no right to judge anyone else but yourself. You have no right to determine someone's parenting skills except for your own. I have heard many a parent say "if that was my child, I would this or that..." only to find two years down the road that Hashem visited them with the same Nisayon. Be very careful about judging your neighbors.

To Yoni, I appreciate your input as "someone who knows" and feel your fire and a bit of anger and resentment too. You must also know that a 17 year old will not listen to a parent about who to be friends with, nor accept a mentor or "chavrusa". Anything a parent wants a child to hear in their teenage years must come from someone other than themselves. Anything a parent says is stupid. However if their words come out of someone else's mouth its brilliant.

Every child needs to be taught according to their own needs. Hashem has also gifted every child with their own individual talents and traits. Each one of these have to be developed and enhanced. And Yoni you are a thousand percent correct. Not every young man is cut out to be a Rebbe or can learn 24/7. Children are not robots, they are children and they will make mistakes it is their job to make mistakes because they are children. The reason they make mistakes is so that they can learn from them. They are living and breathing individuals. They must be taught the Torah "AND" the beauty of the Torah and Yiddishkeit. But they also must see how Great and Generous Hashem is and how and why we must be grateful to him for everything he gave us. Especially the personal gifts to each and every one of us. Some kids are athletic, some are academic, some are artistic and some are musical. These are all gifts from Hashem.

Each and every child is a gem that Hashem entrusted to us. How we, the adults, parents and mechanchem polish them will determine how they sparkle and shine. If we don't recognize the beauty in each of them we will never truly understand their individual value.

So I hope that everyone who is reading this post is understanding my message. It is our job to love our children unconditionally. It is our job to recognize the beauty in every child, and to love every single one of Hashem's children because they are all amazing. If you see a child in the street and he has long hair and grungy clothes say hello. Don't pull away from him and judge him. Because the goyim will embrace him. Your hello will mean so much more to him than the hugs and "hey mans" of 20 goyim.

And "yes" to the poster who asked if you should be just as proud of your irreligious child as of your religious child. Because you are not looking at his potential if you are not. Pride is a very dangerous attribute. It does not reflect on your children it reflects on you and your attitude. You have no idea today what your children will be like in 10 years or 20. Your child who is irreligious today can be a great sprititual leader 20 years from now. And your child who is religious today can be his gabbah, or just a regular "joe shmoe". So be careful about your own attitudes and what you teach your children about being a faithful and religious Jew. As Jews we must love our fellow Jews with all our hearts and souls kal v'achomer our own children.

Remember it is not our jobs to judge. It is our job to follow the Torah and be the best Jews we can be so that we can be good role models to others.

As far as understanding the difference between "tough love" and "loving tough". The concept of "tough love" giving your children ultimatums, throwing them out, showing who is boss and so on is the worst thing a parent can do. Choose to "Love tough". Choose to love them with all your heart and soul unconditionally and remember that they come before your judgmental friends and family.

As a coach I will share with you a coaching tool and technique: As far as "giving them everything"...children should be taught from a very young age that when they choose an action they are also "choosing" the reward or consequence that comes along with that action. That teaches them to be responsible and accountable. Rewards and consequences should be very clear from the start and should be set forth in "family rules" and should never be sprung on children after the fact. Rewards and consequences should be appropriate to the actions and parents should always follow through. If a consequence is known beforehand and it is appropriate to the action it is easier to handle when there is an issue. For instance if a child breaks a curfew and is grounded for the next day or for the next weekend it makes a lot more sense and easier to accomplish than yelling at a child and grounding them for life. You know you can't follow through on something like that. The child is also aware before they break the curfew that they will give up going out the next night or the next weekend it is their choice and they know you will enforce that. So they are in essense choosing the consequence when choosing to break the rule. Even if you have to give up your night out and stay home with the child, you must enforce the consequence.

If you do have to give a consequence for an unusual situation don't do it out of anger. Calm down first. Take two deep breaths before speaking. Allow the child to tell their side and listen to understand. Begin by repeating what the child said in an understanding tone. "I want to be sure I understand what happened...You this....then this happened....so and so did....the reason you did this was...". After repeating the story breathe and think for a few minutes. Be understanding and then say "I think I understand the situation, however you do understand that you and you alone are responsible and accountable for your choices and your actions. I can understand that there can be unusual circumstances but what do you think you could have done differently to have had a different outcome in this situation?" After the reply, you can point out that it was his choice not to do that and now he will know what the "right" choice will be in the future. Then ask what he thinks would be an appropriate consequence for the action. You don't have to choose his consquence but allow him to have an opinion and be part of the process. It is very important for a child to feel he has been "heard" and for a parent to really listen to understand. At that point when it is clear that you have each understood each other you can decide on a consequence.

One more thing. I don't have to know the writer to know it is not about her and her son is not doing it to hurt her. If he was trying to hurt her his behavior would show it. This is not the behavior of a child who is trying to hurt his parents. Adaraba he is very respectful of his parents and is not being mechalel in front of them.

Sherree Belsky Director Kids Count Foundation

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We have just launched the general forums today. The mentoring forums, for Project YES mentors, will follow shortly.

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http://www.alfiekohn.org/up/content/excerpt.asp

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I certainly didn't mean to upset anyone, and I guess I didn't word my comments sensitively enough for people going through this difficult parsha. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to lay the blame on you for where he is up to. I meant really that parents can often help in ways they never knew about.

For example, if you want to try calling me on Motzei Shabbos, or next week, I'll try to give you a half-hour with EFT on his behalf. He doesn't need to know about it. EFT is a form of energy healing, which can be done through the phone, and I have Haskomos from prominent Rabonim. I did EFT a few months ago (surrogately) for a young man who was not Davening. Within a few days he was Davening 3x a day, and now he even gets up for Vasikin. May he continue to improve. (I cannot prove that he changed as a result of the energy work).

Half an hour will probably not be enough, but it may be enough for you to know if it is a derech with which to proceed. My number is 02 9921821.

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Our son also started stealing and lying when he was about 8 (he is 15 today). It is an issue that we have tried to deal with in many ways. There are some people who will tell you that it means that he is lacking something in his life and that if you had provided it he would not be stealing today. Although this may be true with some kids, I do not believe it is the case with all stealing problems in kids. Our son began stealing as a way to make friends and gain popularity since he wasn't a high achiever scholastically, and baruch Hashem he doesn't have the personality to make antics and gain attention that way. However, friends was not something I could have supplied him with.

We spoke to rabbonim and professionals about how to respond to his stealing, but nobody could really give us any valuable information although we really tried every piece of advice we were offered in its time. Then the stealing and lying got worse. I could no longer differentiate between when he was lying to me and when he wasn't by looking him in the eye. He came up with a plethora of extraordinarily believeable excuses for all the things that would turn up in his pockets.

And then, the stealing wasn't for his friends anymore. It was a way for him to get what he wanted NOW and without having to put out an effort to earn it. This, more than anything else is his motto today. He has taught himself the terrible habit that everything can be obtained easily. (Terribly unrealistic view of the world.) I know exactly how you feel about having to lock everything up in the house. We've been doing it for as long as I can remember. And, as soon as we think we have everything under lock and key we discover that he has figured out a way to open the locks. We took to keeping only limited amounts of cash in the house and whatever cash there was had to be in my husband's wallet in his pocket. Our other children know that if they have pocket money and want it to be there when they want to use it, they had better either hide it well or turn it over to us for safekeeping.

There is no question that the feeling in the house of constant suspicion is debilitating for the entire family and ruins your relationship with your child as well as drains your patience and makes you more likely to overreact with your other children.

We were very lucky to have had the siyatta d'Shemaya to have met up with Mrs. Devorah Weiss through an article posted on Rabbi Horowitz's website. She is a M.S.W. and a certified parent/teen coach with loads of first-hand personal experience. We were getting to the point where we didn't know what to do with ourselves anymore. By teaching us the tools of Choice Theory, Mrs. Weiss has been a lifesaver for us, our son, and the rest of our family. She clearly showed us where we had gone wrong, gave us a lot of encouragement for having gotten as far as we had, and taught us how to love our son and not resent him. It's all a matter of perspective.

Today, I have internalized that I cannot change anyone but myself. I cannot force my child to stop stealing or any other self-destructive behavior. What I can and must do as his mother is provide him with a stable, loving environment where his relationship with his parents and his family takes presidence in any discussion we have with him. This means no criticism, no blaming, no asking where things came from, no checking up on him. And truthfully, what were we getting out of all the checking and blaming we were doing previously? 10 times out of 10 he made up a story about where he had "found" the item which we could not refute and we ended up with a hashovas aveidah box that was overflowing with expensive gadgets and cash. These reactions only served to sever our relationship with him.

There have been a couple of times in the past that we were able to prove that he had stolen something and we knew where it had come from. In these cases, we required him to return the item to the owner. We have paid literally thousands of dollars in cash to cover his stealing throughout the years. And, although there was a point about a year ago that he admitted that he had a stealing problem, today he claims that he has kicked it. Yet, it was just last week that I found a receipt and warranty for another electronic gadget that he had paid 400 shekels for in cash. My son doesn't have that kind of pocket money. However, this is his problem.

I can daven for him with a mother's tears. I can still love him and be as caring and sympathetic a mother as I know how to be. It cuts through me when I think about how horrible he must feel inside about himself. These are inately good kids. They know that stealing is wrong. Every time that they steal, they feel dirty and degraded inside -- even though they put on a "who cares" attitude for everyone around them. Can you imagine how devastatingly unhappy these kids must be?!

You don't have to tell me that letting go is not easy. I still need Devorah to remind me from time to time that I am trying to subtly control my son. However, you cannot imagine the relief of stress that dissapates over the house when you finally decide to stop trying to control him and just love him and respect him.

Of course, you need to protect yourself and there will be things you won't be able to do because of his sticky fingers. We have not gone away for Shabbos in a long time because we don't want to take responsibility for him stealing things in someone else's apartment. We also won't send him to a yeshiva with a dorm, because it is a sure way for him to get caught and expelled. Additionally, finding him a job is also almost impossible.

One of these days he is going to have to either decide for himself that he's had enough and he's going to be clean, or, alternatively, he will get caught, taken to jail, and will have to live with the consequences. With all my heart I hope that it is the former and not the latter. But that will be his choice.

So, to an extent you can say that I am just burying my head in the sand and ignoring the problem. My answer to that is: what is the alternative? I cannot change him. All my "confiscating" "educating" and "punishing" him is going to do is sever my relationship with him -- which is the only thing of value that we share...and it is priceless.

If you wish to learn more about how to apply Choice Theory to your situation, Mrs. Weiss' e-mail is devorah.weiss@yahoo.com.

Hatzlachah Rabbah!

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Now let me explain something to you. Consequences that are fair and appropriate to the action teaches a child that mistakes happen but it does not end your life. A consequence has a begining and an end. And when the consequence is over the incident is put to rest. An incident is just that, one incident it should not alter your life and you should not be reminded of it ever day of your life. That is why throwing children out of Yeshivas is an inappropriate consequence because it has no end and it is not equal to most offenses.

House rules should be in place as well as the consequence. In the event of an unusual occurence, we discuss it and even discuss the consequence. We listen to understand and we make sure that we let our children know that we "hear" them.

Children thrive when they know they have rules and guidelines, this is how they know they are loved and cared for. The appropriate consequence gives them an opportunity to learn from their mistake. As I said "an appropriate" consequence. Hitting is never an appropriate consequence, nor is any kind of verbal abuse. Letting them off without holding them accountable for their actions is not guiding them appropriately. When the consequence is over you can tell them how much you respect them for handling the consequence maturely and appropriately.

"Conditional Parenting" means witholding "love" when we are dissapointed with our children.

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As a 20 year old young adult who has been in and out of the household and is very respectful of his parents BT might be able to have a conversation with her son asking him how he feels about his situation and work with him from that perspective. Our Coaching instructor wrote a book "Parent as Coach" by Diana Hastings. It is available on Amazon.com and it will help her approach this type of conversation by learning how to coach her son.

I also insist that every one of my clients read "Choice Theory" by Dr. William Glasser which is very helpful in clarifying and delineating that fine line just as you said. The only person you can control is yourself, the only person you can change is yourself. By reading these two books it is possible for BT to gain some coaching tools to communicate with her son and help him make appropriate choices for himself. I don't think that she can help him to stop stealing, but I do think that she can help him to realize that he is loved and he has a support system. Knowing that, he can choose to reach out to that support system and get the appropriate assistance that he needs, whether that is seeing a pshychiatrist for evaluation, or medication for ADHD to control impulses or whatever therapy he needs to uncover what is motivating him to do what he does.

You have learned that each one of us are responsible and accountable for our own actions. Your son is accountable for what he is doing and you can not control him. However you have learned to be very realistic about the result of his actions. If he gets caught he can face charges and he can be placed in detention. I don't know if he is aware of this but he should be made aware of this.

Have you and your husband decided what you will do if he is caught and arrested? Will you run immediately to bail him out or will you allow him to sit it out? Have you spoken to your attorney to find out what you are responsible for as parents and what you should do if he is caught? It is advisable to have a plan beforehand and not to panic in the face of reality.

It is important that you and your husband be on the same page with this. If you decide with the advice of your attorney and therapist to let him sit it out, you should let him know that you love him very much and therefore you will allow him to suffer the consequences of his own actions if he gets caught. Surprises are not always "fun".

Hatzlocha, Sherree

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Rabbi Horowitz and Rabbi Twerski have been working with children and parents for years. They have done something that other Rebbeim and therapists have not yet accomplished and that is to "listen to understand".

I'm wondering how you know how they listen - by their comments/articles on this blog? And I wonder how you can dismiss other Rebbeim and therapists without knowing them.

[disclaimer - It could very well be that the rabbis referred to are exactly as you describe them. My comments do not reflect skepticism about them but skepticism about your statements]

So although your post comes from an aspect of another "judgmental Jew"

Hmmm. Yet another example of someone calling someone judgmental while being judgemental themselves :) You judged and criticized Yoni and didn't apologize either. I'd appreciate it if we could address the topic under discussion without personal remarks.

Hashem tests anyone he chooses to test.

Do I understand you correctly that you see having a child-at-risk as similar to having a child born or stricken, lo aleinu, with an illness, i.e. An Act of G-d?

I agree with you about parents and school though I didn't know who you were responding to.

As for pride, let me ask you. When are you proud about something about yourself? (and of course I don't mean arrogant) Are you proud when you've accomplished something, whether tangible like getting ready for Shabbos on time, or intangible like keeping quiet when you wanted to say something? Or are you proud of your potential to accomplish something?

One more thing. I don't have to know the writer to know it is not about her and her son is not doing it to hurt her. If he was trying to hurt her his behavior would show it.

I think plenty more has to be known about the writer and the son before declaring what his intentions are or aren't. In fact, I don't think the question posed to R' Horowitz (at the top of this page) can be answered, as it's presented.

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Is there a reason that you are personalizing this so much with Sherree? As a close relative of teenagers going through similar issues discussed here, I am grateful for her insight and clarity of thought, and it has helped me already. What might be the reason for your taking apart everything she is saying in that way? I'm not sure why such a helpful thread needs to be personalized that way- the tone is way off.

I don't think Sherree needs to apologize to Yoni in exactly the way that you authorize- you made a comment, Sherree addressed Yoni very appropriately, and the tone of your comments way exceeding Sherree's short paragraph taking Yoni to task, which she later addressed.

Please, let us all learn from eachother, from people like R' Horowitz, B. Twersky, and Sherree. We'll have much to gain.

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Consequences are a necessary part of a child's growth when he is still young and his parent is taking the role of "captain of his ship". If the child makes the transition into teenhood without kicking the idea of consequences, all the better. However, from my experience, once the child starts to become a teenager, he may begin to see consequences as controlling. And, if that teen turns into an at-risk teen, you are going to have to tread very carefully. My son has the additional problem that he doesn't value just about anything. Sometimes, when he is very upset, I wonder if he values his own life. It is almost impossible to set a consequence that will bother him enough to be a deterrent. He also has a flair for wiggling his way out of problems -- disappearing is one way -- so even if we do manage to set a consequence that means something, chances are we won't be able to enforce it. It all comes back to our mantra of "If it isn't going to build your relationship with your at-risk teen, don't do/say it." (And I would be so bold as to say it even applies to your not-at-risk teen in many cases.) The alternative anyways will probably not give you the result you seek and almost definitely will cause you agmas nefesh, frustration, and pain and your child to be even more frustrated than you are which will lead him to become more rebellious, disconnect, and be angry with you. So you will have gained nothing at the expense of putting another brick up in the wall between you and your teen. This is the most destructive thing you could possibly do.

Sherree, yes we have discussed what we would do if our son was incarcerated. The social services system here (and I get my knowledge from a very close friend whom I have been watching go through her own tunnel with her teens) is to a large extent corrupt. I do not say that they are completely unhelpful, but in many ways, and especially when it comes to kids, they social services are above the law. This means that if they decide that the parents should not have the privilege of raising their own child, they can fabricate stories, walk right into court, get a court order, and the parents don't have a squeaking chance of being able to fight it. It is extremely rare that a court makes a rule against the social system. This is very scary for parents like myself who are trying their very best but know that at some point their child might get involved with social services and get taken away to foster care. In the chareidi system, there is a safety net of organizations to keep these kids out of the hands of the social services at all costs. This has its own risks. What I am trying to say is that inasmuch as my husband and I have decided not to bail him out immediately were my son to be arrested, we also know that if and when the time comes that we have to make such a decision, a lot will depend on the reactions of the people on the case from the police/social services. We have done what we could to pre-prepare the situation. We have contacts in the social services department who know us well and we have a policeman who also is a good friend. However, there is no way to know if this protektzia will allow us to allow our son's arrest (chas veshalom) to teach him the lesson we want him to learn until the time comes and we see who we are dealing with.

To paraphrase AK's previous post, when the village is messing up the gears, it makes it difficult to raise the child even with the best of intentions. We can only raise our eyes to HKB"H and beg his mercy for the sake of our deeply unhappy children.

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On another note, even with reading all the books and having the right intentions, there is nothing that can take the place of having a good counselor to support you. If I had read the Choice Theory books on my own, I probably would have been sold on the idea initially, but I know I would never have had the stamina to weather the storms of my son's ups and downs and stick to a new, unfamiliar way of chinuch at the same time without having the support and guidance of Mrs. Weiss. Every change is difficult and we tend to gravitate toward habit -- especially when our emotions are involved. Having an objective person out there who feels and cares so much that they will do everything in their power to help you keep on track and make your change permanent makes it expotentially easier and more realistic a goal. Our home was a different place within a week of implementing Mrs. Weiss' suggestions and the basic rules of Choice Theory. I wish everyone much nachas from every one of their wonderful kinderlach.

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Do I understand you correctly that you see having a child-at-risk as similar to having a child born or stricken, lo aleinu, with an illness, i.e. An Act of G-d?

ABSOLUTELY! First of all, the basis of our emunah is that everything that happens to a Yid is "An Act of G-d"! And it is imperative that we believe that Hashem is a LOVING G-d -- not a vengeful G-d. Yes, things happen that cause us tza'ar and of course there is the whole issue of s'char v'onesh (reward & punishment) but we know that Hashem is a loving Father who only has our good in mind.

Taking into account the mind-boggling number of kids at risk out there today, it is impossible to place blame on individuals -- neither parents or children. Just as the Holocaust was a gezeirah on the klal and did not differenciate between tzaddikim and non-tzaddikim, this spiritual Holocaust is also a gezeirah on the klal and is not contained to only a specific "kind" of family or parents. These children belong to all of klal yisrael, and inasmuch as parents naturally feel more tza'ar for their own child, it is really a collective tza'ar and we all need to do the best we can to unite against this plague that has infiltrated our ranks. Of course, as a collective gezeirah, it is incumbent upon us to do a collective cheshbon hanefesh as a klal to see if there is something there that we need to change. I have discussed this above as have others.

Now, that said, regarding the child specifically, I have found it extremely helpful to regard my son davka as a handicapped child. And truth be told, he is -- emotionally handicapped. To put it in your words, he has been stricken with an illness: the exact formula of circumstances (character, talents, abilities, chug and time-period and place he was born in, schools he went to, teachers he had, parents he was given, placement in his family, influencial peers who had contact with him, etc., etc.) that brought him to where he is today. None of those elements alone would have made him at-risk. And it was HKB"H who mixed the formula. That is not to say that my son didn't have choices to make along the way. Only that for whatever reason HKB"H saw best to test him (and us) with these nisyonos. The only answer we can give to the big "Why?" question is that whatever the reason was, we can be sure it is for his own as well as our own good.

As for pride, let me ask you. When are you proud about something about yourself? (and of course I don't mean arrogant) Are you proud when you've accomplished something, whether tangible like getting ready for Shabbos on time, or intangible like keeping quiet when you wanted to say something? Or are you proud of your potential to accomplish something?

You are mixing up the good feeling a person has due to something he has worked for and accomplished with the loving feeling we have toward someone who is a part of us -- regardless of what they do. Yes, I am completely and absolutely proud of my son. To say otherwise would be like saying I don't like my right arm. I can walk next to him in the street and be proud that he is a part of me and my family. I may not always be proud of everything he does. But I am proud of his derech eretz, his good nature, his sensitivity and his talents. Every Yiddishe child has some character we can be proud of. I choose to see my child's positive accomplishments and truly feel tza'ar for the tza'ar he goes through due to the other things he does. I don't love him any less -- if anything I love him more!

From our experience, if parents would choose to let go, to stop being critical, to stop trying to control their at-risk teen, they would find that all of a sudden their teen is not manipulating them any more. The general mood in the house is no longer changing according to his/her tune. And most of all, they will be more open and able to show their underlying love for their child. This will happen automatically because then they choose to see his strengths and aren't fixated on catching him before he stumbles (which really translates into watching and waiting for him to make the next mistake).

I know that some of you know exactly what I am talking about and what I am saying sounds almost like an impossible dream. Believe me, I've been there. My son didn't make any conscious changes -- we didn't even talk to him about it -- it was my husband and I who chose to change. You can do it, too!

The difference in our home was so stark within the short period of a few days that even my other children noticed and were willing to follow our lead. All of a sudden their older brother wasn't driving them crazy and he was even pleasant to be around! I also had more patience and time as I was less involved with trying to follow my son's every move "so as to save him from himself".

No one can guarantee that the turnaround will happen this fast with everyone; sometimes there are other issues that have to be dealt with as well. However, if you make this first change in your perspective as parents, you can be sure that you will definitely see at least an improvement in a very short period of time.

The wonderful thing about Choice Theory is that there is nothing that it advocates that can possibly do harm. The worst that can happen is that you don't see the extent of change you are looking for. If you relate to some of the things I wrote above, do yourself and your child a favor and pick up a copy of one of the reference books mentioned in this thread. Or, find a counselor who follows the basic tennets of Choice Theory. I recommended our counselor above and I'll give her contact info again at the end of this post. We have the ability to control just one aspect of the formula that surrounds our at-risk teen. That aspect is ourselves. Just as in any recipe if you change one ingredient you can make an entirely new dish, the steps you take to change yourself could form the new recipe that brings your child to the path to happiness. Chizku v'amtzu!

Mrs. Devorah Weiss' contact info again: devorah.weiss@yahoo.com

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Dr. Sorotzkin, whose articles have been posted by Rabbi Horowitz on this blog, disagrees. Here's a link where he explains why he disagrees, at length:

http://www.drsorotzkin.com/role_of_parents.html

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As for "taking apart" - She has made some strong statements. If she can back them up, wonderful. I find her tone off-putting but have responded to her statements that I think need to be supported, rather than stated categorically as Truth.

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I think you ARE personalizing this way too much, and am having a hard time even seeing your message for the unpleasant tone. But perhaps others don't think as I do, and I will try to gain as much as I can out of people who I see offering help here, without letting your posts take away from that.

Shabbat Shalom

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Firstly I think Chana did an excellent job of answering you as well as anonymous. But I will still try to answer your "attack". If you are not in the Parsha you can't possibly understand why Yoni was being insensitive by diverting the topic.

Secondly "YES" I know both Rabbi Dr. Twerski & Rabbi Horowitz personally, so I know of their work and their experience, and I have knowledge and experience with many other Rebbeim and Counselors who have done much damage to parents and children in the parsha.

As far as equating a child-at-risk to a child with any other affliction, again if you are not in the parsha and your heart is not torn apart by this particular "affliction" and you don't watch your child transform from someone you know like the back of your hand to someone who is almost unrecognizable to you, from someone who used to hug you and respect you to someone who sometimes screams profanities at you, who you used to see sleeping soundly in their beds before you went to sleep to not knowing if they are alive or dead when you try to fall asleep at night, you have no right to ask such a question. I will say even to you, that it is insensitive of you. Anyone who is not "in" the parsha or involved with the parsha is just not knowledgeable enough to understand the senisitivity of the issue. So your arguments and attack seems too tough and overbearing and it comes from a point of unintentional ignorance.

As far as the writer is concerned when you have enough experience with the parsha you learn to read and understand. The writer actually gave a lot of information.

In regard to "pride". As coach we choose not to use the word "proud" because it does not project on the accomplishments of our children it reflects on our own needs and satisfaction. We replace it with words like "respect, admire and appreciate". We respect, admire and appreciate each one of our children for each and every one of their accomplishments according to their own abilities and their own potential at any given time. It is not a matter of them pleasing us or dissapointing us. It is a matter of builiding self-esteem and self-confidence in our children. We can't judge them according to our own standards. We do the best we can to teach them and guide them. What make a concious effort to be the best role models we can be. And even if they stray we should understand that we planted a good foundation. It is still there and no matter how much they try to run away from it, no matter how much they try to shed it by taking off their "livush" or their tefillin, or their tznius clothing, it is still there underneath their skin and in their hearts and souls. Eventually it will surface again because it will never leave them, it is the foundation that you planted within them. If you continue to be the best role model you can be, you will continue to add to that foundation.

I want to thank Chana for correcting me on the author of "Parent-as-Coach". Diana now goes by her married name Sterling, so I get confused at times. I also want to mention that Devorah has a on-line support group for parents called Chizuk and Coaching.

I also would like to clarify something to Chana. I wasn't suggesting that you start giving your son consequences at this stage. I said that children should be raised with that concept and that he should be aware that that he is responsible and accountable for his actions. Whatever his choices are they will either bring him a reward or consequence. That is a natural occurence. That doesn't mean that "YOU" will give him the consequence, it means that it will happen according to his choices. In other words if he chooses to jump down a flight of stairs chas v'sholom it is most likely he will wind up with a broken leg. A poor choice that will end up with the consequence of a broken leg. That is the nature of things, and that is life. Life is governed by rules, rules of nature, rules of government, work, school, home, etc.

Chana you are an amazing student of an excellent coach and I believe you are and will be an amazing source of chizuk to others in this parsha.

Regards from Sunny Florida, Yes I even do this on vacation!

Gut Shabbos, Sherree Belsky

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I think it can be understood from the previous posts I have made here that I feel that parents play a major role in their at-risk teen's present and future.

I do have to say that I disagree with Dr. Sorotzkin in that I don't think most parents of at-risk teens are abusive -- intentionally or unintentionally. This seemed to be an underlying theme in his article. I do agree that had the parents reacted differently to their child during their growing up, the child might not have become at-risk. However, I will repeat what I wrote above that what put the child at risk was an entire formula of circumstances. The parent-child relationship being only one of the ingredients in that formula.

And, since changing any one of the ingredients will change the outcome, I definitely agree with Dr. Sorotzkin that if the parents had reacted differently throughout the child's parenting, the outcome would have been different -- and we would hope better. But I would also venture to say just as certainly that if another factor in the formula had been different, it also could have drastically changed the outcome.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Dr. Sorotzkin is speaking from hindsight. I would like to think that the overwhelming majority of parents are not intentionally abusive of their children. In fact, that they only had the very best of intentions. Even Dr. Sorotzkin brings the following quote (in regard to emotional problems in adults):

...typically the destructive parenting experiences have derived from [the] unconscious defenses of the parent. The parents had no conscious knowledge or control of these defenses, and in most cases are very decent people who would never consciously hurt their child. Often they will go to great lengths to help their child...

The way that a parent reacted to the child when he was younger may have been the most logical way to respond. Most parents -- especially when inexperienced with the subject of at-risk teens -- don't think ahead to how their dealings with their child will translate when he/she becomes an adolescent. The parents usually just follow the rules of logic or the parenting that they grew up with or what they read in a parenting book.

According to Dr. Sorotzkin's assertions that parents are the real cause of this problem and the great increase in the numbers of at-risk teens today, one would have to say that the quality of parenting today is significantly worse than that of previous generations. Can we really say that? I don't have enough contact with enough people to say for sure, but it doesn't sound right to me.

My personal opinion is that parents today are actually much more educated educators than in previous generations. We have unlimited access to parenting books that are written in our own language by mechanchim galore. Many people additionally have a rav that they speak to on chinuch issues. In my opinion, one of the missing links is the clash between our culture (chareidi) and our parenting knowledge.

Chareidi culture (at least in Eretz Yisrael) is for the most part unbending. So, when we have a child who, for example, wants to play ball during recess when he is in 4th grade, but the school forbids balls, what are we as parents supposed to say? On the one hand, we are being told -- let the child be a child -- which we know is what the child needs, but on the other hand, the child is getting punished at school for bringing a ball. Okay, so the child has to listen to the school rules, but we can make allowances to allow him to play at home. Now, you take this 8-year-old who is having a hard enough time sitting through his long school day (8-6:30), and tell him that he cannot have any other outlet to let off energy during breaks other than to run around a tiny, fenced-in schoolyard packed with another few hundred kids or stand around the hallways talking to friends. Is it any wonder that he gets into trouble by finding more "exciting" things to do. Is the fact that his parents give him their full support going to change the fact that he is making himself a name as a troublemaker?

Dr. Sorotzkin says in regard to kids with learning disabilities or other handicaps:

...when Rav Dessler speaks of Eisav having a more difficult temperament, he also makes it clear that less was expected of him as a result (at least initially)

Can anyone say that this is the rule of thumb in our schools? Since our boys spend at least two thirds of their waking hours at school from the age of 8 or so, is it true that if the parenting changes it would mostly cure the problem? Inasmuch as a loving and accepting home environment should form the close bond between the child and the parents described by some of the parents of at-risk kids in this thread, that will only guarantee that the child will always know that he can come back home. It does not guarantee that the child's need to be accepted by his peers will not pull him to at-risk behavior and possibly going OTD.

Even Dr. Sorotzkin admits this (I added the emphasis):

Rather, it is only after a buildup of feelings of hurt, resentment, anger, rejection and alienation from family and community that they feel that they have nothing to lose by dropping out.

Okay, let's say your 8-year-old has done something wrong -- maybe he hit a sibling or stole money from his parent's wallet. We have learned in all our parenting books that there have to be consequences. But then we are also told that our children need to be dealt with with "unconditional love". Well, now we're in a bind! Are we supposed to ignore the child's infraction? Or maybe follow this piece of advice I once heard from a well-known mechanech: you tell the child "okay, you did XYZ. For that I am going to give you 3 slaps [obviously, not abusive ones]." Then, the father takes the child's hand and gives him 2 slaps and counts: "One, two." And then, as he lifts his hand to give the child the third slap, he drops his hand and instead embraces the child and says: "I am not going to give you the third slap because I want you to know that I love you." Is that unconditional love?

This, in my opinion is the second missing link between chinuch theory as we are taught and parenting in its l'ma'aseh form. The point I am trying to make here is that I don't think today's parents are worse than in previous generations. I DO think that today's parents are less prepared to deal with today's kids. We cannot just follow in our parents' footsteps vis a vis how to raise our children. It doesn't work in the long term. We grew up in a society where, even by the goyim, a parent's word was law. Our kids are growing up in a society where a child has the right to question his parents' decisions. The rules have changed. For the most part, most parents aren't aware that they need new rules, and therefore they don't have the parenting tools to deal with TODAY's kids. Most current, frum parenting books have not been given the overhall and complete update necessary for parents to properly deal with the outside-factors our kids are dealing with that their counterparts in previous generations didn't deal with.

It is interesting to note, that almost every article or book on chinuch written by a contemporary Rov, mechanech or frum clinician emphasizes the importance of a positive and warm parent - child relationship, acceptance of a child's individuality, and a reduction of excessive pressure and criticism, as the surest means of avoiding rebellious children. Yet, when children do rebel, we hesitate to draw the logical conclusion that the parents probably did not follow this advice.

Because I think they DID try their very hardest to follow this advice, but the chinuch books that I have read do not advise the parents on what to do when they hit a bump in the road. So the parent is left with a great idea, but not much information on how to implement it when there are problems.

Which brings me back to the question I posed above. One of the basic changes that has been made in chinuch is that we are now taught that hitting kids is wrong. (Although, in some educational mosdos in Eretz Yisrael, hitting is still an acceptible form of punishment - even for teens!) Instead, we are told that LOVE is the foundation to raising our children. And not just any love -- unconditional love! So, what does that mean? The dictionary definition is: "showing love towards someone regardless of his or her actions or beliefs". For the secular society, this means that kids should be allowed to do virtually anything they want without their parents interfering. I doubt that's what our mechanchim mean, though, when they use the term! I don't know about the other parents, but I was quite confused about the meaning of this term until I was introduced to Choice Theory. I never understood how "unconditional love" got translated when we had to react to a child's improper behavior.

Here is Dr. Sorotzkin's answer:

I suggest to the parents that, when it reaches a point where children rebel against the family and its way of life, then they need to show their children that they are more concerned with their feelings than with their behavior. If they can do this, there is a good chance that they can turn the situation around.

AHA! And here is the real meaning of unconditional love -- and one of the basic foundations of Choice Theory. I don't know if this will "turn the situation around" if you wait until the child "rebels against the family and its way of life", but it will definitely make the child feel that he has who to turn to in his parents and home environment. However, if these tools are applied from the very beginning of parenting, you have a good chance that your children will bypass the rebellious stage.

And then there is the other issue that our parents didn't have to deal with: the high standards of today's chareidi society -- again, I am speaking of what goes on here in Eretz Yisrael. Dr. Sorotzkin writes:

Rav Yitzchok Hutner emphasizes the crucial importance of maintaining a sense of satisfaction from everyday, average religious activities even in the face of rising standards and expectations.

Can we truly say that our society allows this leeway? Are our children really getting the message that even if they decide not to spend the rest of their lives in a kollel or a yeshiva they can still be good, upstanding Yidden who won't be considered second-class citizens? When I mentioned this belief to a good friend recently, I was told "You're too American!" We have a very good friend who, after 15 years in kollel, felt that he wasn't getting enough satisfaction from his personal learning and wanted to start teaching. He inquired into what it would take for him to become a cheder rebbe. After getting all his information, he sat down with his wife to discuss the issue. Her initial and final reaction was: "What do you mean "you're thinking of leaving kollel"!? I'm happy to live with less, but you can't give up full-time learning." Granted, that is an extreme reaction even among chareidi people for someone who wants to go into chinuch, but it is a sign of the times. Bais Yaakov girls are taught that nothing is more important than their husband's learning, but are all girls made out to be the wife of the rosh yeshivah? Can all girls handle raising their children single-handedly while running a home AND bringing in the parnassah? One thing our chumrah-keeping society of Yidden has done is to pull the emphasis away from Bein Odom L'chaveiro and put it on Bein Odom laMakom. Like someone once said to me: "Most of us today probably wouldn't have eaten in Moshe Rabbeinu's house -- his standard's of kashrus wouldn't have been up to ours!"

The assumption that parents succeeded with their other children is often based in superficial criteria, for example, the fact that the other children didn't rebel against yidishkeit. Often however, the other children have also been hurt, but in less obvious ways. Perhaps the other children lack self-confidence or suffer from low self-esteem. Sometimes some of the other children are quite depressed, but not to the point that it is obvious to other people.

I think that this is one of the main places I disagree with Dr. Sorotzkin. In my humble opinion, this statement smacks of the psychology that was in vogue when I was growing up and has become a part of the basic belief of most clinical psychologists. That is: "Just about every person alive today was abused as a child. Some people can recall the abuse and others hide it in their subconscious. It is those who hide it who are worse off." In essence, this translates into: "If you think you need a psychologist, you probably do. If you think you don't need a psychologist, you DEFINITELY do!" The definition of a "normal" childhood today according to the professionals is a "perfect" childhood -- no parental mistakes allowed! That's not how we grew up, and each of us could probably write a long list of our parents' chinuch blunders, but the number of at-risk teens was significantly less a generation ago! Additionally, some of the commentaries say that the reason the firstborn child is alloted a double portion by the Torah is because he suffered the most from his parents' trial and error as they gained experience in parenting. So even the Torah allows parents to make mistakes, though it still expects the children to stay within its boundaries.

[Regarding calling at-risk teens a "gezeira", Rav Mattisyahu Solomon] explained that he did not mean that this tragedy strikes at random, without rhyme or reason. Rather, he meant that the conditions that bring about this problem - and he emphasized the quality of the parent-child relationship as a major factor - are the result of the geziera of golus.

i.e., ALL the "golus" factors and situations that teens and parents find themselves facing contribute to the creation of the problem. I definitely agree.

And then, toward the very end of his article, Dr. Sorotzkin finally admits that our children's educational environment is equally a "major factor" in the kids-at-risk problem:

While I emphasize the role of the parents in the child's overall emotional health, it should go without saying that mechanchim play a major role in shaping a child's attitudes to school in general and to yidishkeit in particular. To many teens - especially those who either have parents who are less frum, or who are not so close to their children - mechanchim can be parent substitutes and they often represent the essence of yidishkeit to their students. When mechanchim are insensitive to their student's emotional needs it can undermine or even corrupt their emotional relationship to yidishkeit. Unfortunately, many adults still carry the scars of insensitive and even cruel treatment by mechanchim. This creates a negative association to yidishkeit - with many negative repercussions even if it doesn't result in going off the derech. Most of the observations and suggestions made here for parents are equally applicable to mechanchim and mechanchos.

Almost every single parent of a teen-at-risk that I have spoken to has a plethora of stories of the times that their child's teachers/schools failed him/her.

In summary, although I agree that parenting makes a big difference in the child's outcome, in my humble opinion, there are other major factors that also make a big difference. It is not any ONE factor that creates a teen-at-risk. It is the overall combination of factors -- which is a formula that HKB"H creates. As parents, and ONE OF the main ingredients, we have the power to influence the outcome, but not necessarily to ensure the "and they all lived happily forever after" ending that we would want.

May we all be zocheh to see the nachas we wish from every one of our beautiful kinderlach.

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I've lost friends to being at risk. For highschool I went to the first at risk yeshiva in the world. Origionaly it had been the first baal teshuva highschool yeshiva in the world (which it still is) but quickly as it gained steam it also became the first one for at riskers as well. Of the students in the yeshiva perhaps 5 or 6 were genuine baalei teshuva of a young age. I was in the middle, frum from birth but dangerously behind in my chinnuch because of bad circumstances in my family preventing me from going to cheder, and then the rest of the 40 students or so were genuinely "at risk". Many were local, others came from all over. They smoked, smuggled in radios and things far worse than this (including once, a couple of years before I got there, 2 girls) and did all kinds of stuff. Half the kids had LDs.

These, for two or thee years were my friends. Some of them are still my friends. Many of the behaviors they took part in I never shared with them, but I can tell you good and well what causes people to go off the derech, and those issues I brought up are one of many. I would tend to agree with our esteemed rabbi's thesis about LDs contibuting to it, but I would also tend to agree that it is also fostered by increasing stringencies. Torah clearly tells us "one who adds, subtracts". Granted in some cases gedarim are necessary, but as torah teaches us "tradition is a fence for the torah". Further our sages taught us that "it is forbiden to make a fence for a fence". These contribute rather mightily to the problem, as the range of outlets permitted them shrink ever smaller.

But another major issue is, quite frankly, the issue of the two faced hypocritical manner that our teachers show. They claim achdus is so important, and then turn and dispariage everyone from the modern orthodox to the reform and unaffiliated. they also humiliate youngsters looking to marry with rediculous and stupid questions of absolutely no value, even worse to people who do not properly know the person. They see opulent weddings when materialism is demeaned. They see girls encouranged to defy rules of tznius so that they can get married, and they conclude, in short, that the jewish community is a lie. This one claimed a girl who was very dear to me. They still tend to try and live, in their own way, with the ideas that were taught to them. That's why she joined the military after fleeing judaims to drugs, and then fleeing the drugs.

But do I understand the issue at hand? yes, intimately, probably better than you do, and what I brought up is every bit relevant to the issue at hand, there are others of course, and I would expect that it only accounts for a tiny porportion of those who go off the derech, but it does, on the other hand, account for some who are the best behaved, which might seem to be the case here, at least based on the information we were given. It also, unfortunately, seems to be declared the worst of the crimes at risk youth commit.

and yet so many wash their hands of the real causes and have the arrogance and gaul to declare that it is nothing more than a communal "gezera". Such people are directly responsible for the crises that they themselves have prohibitied with their arrogant violating the torah in the worst sense with their rediculous and arrogant additions in the name of "kedusha". Their additions and nothing but the worst and most vile of the sitra achera, and they are DESTROYING everything that I and so many others held dear about torah, and makes me really wish I had gone the way of my beloved, and the way of my brothers, and the way of so many others, because they are choking torah and judaism and killing it with their idiocies, and watching it die is the same as it felt watching my beloved harm herself with drugs, promiscuity, and driving herself away, and wondering every day indeed if she was alive or dead.

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(oh, and the unconditional love thing is important as well, but I think that part of the problem is that we're putting our collective idols infront of our kids, instead of looking to torah for guidance, and loving them deeply.)

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There are no barometers that can measure one parents' pain to anothers. You can't possibly judge a parents', child's or siblings pain who is in the parsha to that of a corresponding family member of a child with another affliction. Pain is pain and loss is loss. A parent is a parent and when a child suffers parents suffer as well.

Look at your child. Now imagine if you can, that you will not see your child for the next 5,6 or even 10 years chas v'sholom. That you have been happily preparing for Yom Tov only to sit down at the table to be faced year after year with the reality of his/her empty and vacant chair. As you walk to shul alone you watch all your neighbors walk hand in hand, step in step with their children. As other parents kiss and shoo their children out of shul for Yizkor your heart is breaking not knowing whether or not to say Yizkor, Kel Moleh or even Kadish for your own child because you don't know if they are alive or dead.

Imagine considering yourselves the lucky ones when going to pay a shiva call to parents who lost their child to an overdose or suicide. Or visiting your child in the psyche ward because they failed at their suicide attempt or they fried their brain with drugs. Or again being the lucky ones visiting your child in rehab because they agreed to seek treatment or therapy. Or someone caring enough about your child to raise funds for them to get the drug rehab that they need.

Imagine now if you will, what it feels like when your child becomes Shomer Shabbos again. It is like a doctor telling you that their cancer is in remission. When you see your daughter shelving her minis in favor of her more tzniusdik clothing again, or watching your son gently and carefully putting his Tefillin on again for the first time. It is like a doctor telling you that your child can come home again, he is signing the discharge papers.

Do you understand now that pain is pain and loss is loss? Is there any possible way to compare the pain of a parent who has no clue where their child is or whether they are alive or dead? Do you know what its like to feel your heart in your throat when you wake up in middle of the night and go to check on your children and your child's bed is empty at 4:00am? Can you possibly imagine throwing your child out and watching the back of his head as he walks away from your door not knowing if you will ever see him again? Can you do that? Do you know the utter joy a parent in the parsha feels just to see their child walk through the door safe and sound? The same as any parent with a child afflicted by disease feels when their child walks through the door safe and sound.

The parents and children in this parsha did not ask for this nisayon anymore than any child with an illness or handicap did. It is a sensitive subject and must be approached respctfully and in a dignified mannner. If you "care to know" then keep that in mind when asking. If you are just curious, then that goes double for you. But please, please don't presume to judge or offer unsolicited advice because you have no idea how offensive and hurtful your words can be.

I have written many articles on the subject and have made many speeches as well. It is a very difficult concept to grasp when you are peering into a world that is totally foreign. Imagine having to live within it. At first parents naturally assume it is unbearable. It is a nightmare that they will never wake up from, something they can not recover from. They feel like they can't breathe, they want to get into bed and never crawl out. They are ashamed to be seen and even want to switch shuls feeling that everyone is staring at them and blaming them. Then they realize that Hashem is giving them the strength to handle it, to find the support they need and the support they need to give their children. They learn the tools to cope and move forward. They learn things that we are trying to teach right here such as "unconditional love", knowing that we can only control ourselves and not change others. That everyone is accountable and responsible for their own actions. That when you pull too hard on the apron strings your children pull harder, if you give them a little slack they will test the waters but still stay connected and eventually with Hashem's help come home. If you cut the strings they may be lost forever.

When we marry we have these wonderful dreams of having children, raising them and we literally have their paths laied out for them. Then they grow up and as they grow, they have their own dreams and choose their own paths. The more we try to pull them back into our dreams and the paths we laid out for them the more they pull away onto their own journeys. It is after all their life and they need to go on their own journeys according to Hahsem's plan for them just as we experienced the journeys that Hashem planned for us.

What we need to remember is this. "Vshivisi eschem l'negdi tamid". Always behave as if you stand before the King because I have placed you before me always and forever. If we raise our children both at home and in school on this premise. If we live our lives both as parents and mechanchim on this premise to behave and act as if we are always standing before the King melech hamelochim, we would conduct ourselves as the role models our children can emulate. We wouldn't have to fear which journeys our children were on because they would always understand that they too are standing before the King.

Hatzlocha to all those in the parsha, and those who are trying to understand it.

Sherree Belsky

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To Yoni, it is clear that you are in pain, which may obscure your understanding. I wish you all the best in your future, and a wonderful, blessed life in all ways.

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I don't know how old you are, or when you got involved with your friend. I realize that it has been a painful experience for you. I agree with many of your points and don't understand why and where you got the idea that I was on the opposite side of the fence on these issues.

Where I don't agree with you is that it is OK to have boy/girl relationships till after high school and better yet when you are really mature enough and ready for marriage. During the teen years kids are just not mature enough to handle the delicacy and sensitivity of relatiionships especially the part of confidentiality and rejection.

Obviously I don't know you so I am not going to comment on you and your friend, but in general this is what I truly believe in. I do agree with you that Yeshivos do not address issues appropriately with our kids and their parents and in most cases their hypocricy is unashamedly blatant.

When working with teens I explain that it is normal to have an interest in the opposite sex. Their bodies are changing phisiologically, physically, emotionally, etc. Its chemical, its hormones. Hashem makes you that way. But he is preparing you slowly for the future, for when you are older and ready to get married. It is a slow process, a work in progress. Imagine if you felt like a child one day and the day you turn 18 you woke up and you looked different, you felt different and you thought differently. One day a child and the next a full blown adult.

Just like you learned and trained yourselves to control your urges about not eating milk after meat, about not turning on lights on Shabbos, or not riding in a car on Shabbos, etc. so must you restrain yourselves and teach yourselves to control these urges and impulses as well. As teenagers use your time to make good and lasting friendships with your classmates. Concentrate on your education, be a kid and leave the romance for when you are old enough and mature enough to respect and handle all the responsibilities that come along with it.

A true Jewish Marriage is designed and based on the ultimate and most intimate of connections between a husband and a wife. Because we hold very dear the uniqueness, personal, private, and beautiful special bond between each individual couple. Where the secular world changes partners like we change outfits, the Jewish marriage is a sacred one-on-one relationship. Why would anyone want to bring ghosts into that?

When we have this discussion and I explain it in those terms and answer their questions, we also speak about how they need to be respected. No one ever asked them this question before. After delving into this topic and an understanding of the above coupled with the concept of respect in any given relationdhip they usually choose to start backing away from those situations not because I told them that it is assur and they will go to gehenom, but because they had a better understanding of how they needed to be respected and what kind of relationship they wanted in the future.

It is very rare that that any of the girls I knew at 15 who swore up and down that their boyfriends were "the one" they would marry "for sure";that their boyfriends loved them so much; and they just had to sleep with this guy who was giving them all these gifts because he loved her and was going to marry her...ever wound up with that guy or married him. And B"H some are married.

As far as the boys are concerned. Ask any 22 or 23 year old boy who has B"H healed from his parsha and has put his life back in order what he would have done differently. He would tell every kid to stay away from drugs and cigarettes. He would also tell them to be careful of ruining a girl's reputation.

Kids are kids and as mature as they think they are they talk too much. Everyone just tells one person who is sworn to secrecy who just tells one other person who is sworn to secrecy until everyone knows the same well known secret. They find out very quickly what a small world they live in and how everyone knows everyone else.

You yourself are still pining over a lost love who has been forced to move on. Obviously you have been very effected by it and sound very hurt and bitter.

I honestly believe that children should be prepared for the changes that are happening to them. They should be aware that this will happen to them and how to handle the emotions and nuances that come along with the changes. Kids have questions and those questions should be answered. Parents and mechanchim should not be afraid to discuss this with kids and prepare them. Yelling at them that they will get kicked out of school for breaking this rule, kicking them out or telling them they will go to gehenim is really not working.

In addition if our schools would teach the beauty of tznius instead of chasing the girls down the hall with a ruler (just kidding), or changing rules every day, "wear longer skirts, these skirts are too long, your hair is too pretty, your eyes are too big, etc.", we would have more compliance out of understanding and willingness rather than fear. Teach Torah and Yiddishkeit from an aspect of love, from an aspect of mitzvos aseh not mitzvos lo taaseh. Of course everything has to be taught "the do's and the don'ts" but emphasize the "do's" the joy of Yiddishkeit. A Yid darf zein b'simcha.

So Yoni, if you learn one thing about me learn this. I am a student/child advocate. I will go and have gone head to head and toe to toe with anyone standing in the way of a child's success. I have called Rebbeim and schools and walked in straight to the principal's office. My articles have been criticized by some as being too controversial because I take Yeshivos and Mechanchim to task for their responsibility in our children's issues. "We are not equipped" is not an acceptable answer. I believe that every Yeshiva/school should have a staff/teacher/Rebbe handbook as well as a student handbbook. I believe that "Mutual Respect" is the basis for any relationship whether it is parent/child, Rebbe/student or employer/employee.

So although I can't agree with you on everything you said just for the sake of agreeing, I do agree with most of it and I do admire you for your obvious convictions.

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I really admire you both. You are so sincere, and come off as so intelligent and clear-minded. You also must have tremendous strength of character to persevere for so long in such a difficult situation. I can imagine few things as difficult to live with as stealing. I really wish you all the best.

Sherree, your paragraph that started off with "Do you understand that pain is pain..." brought tears to my eyes. It really drove home an essential point.

I'm going to look up the Choice method discussed here. It sounds promising.

I agree with Chana that we aren't necessarily parenting worse than previous generations. It's a popular claim, but is it true as a generalization? The people who talk about the "superparents" of yesteryear are generally from really amazing families (Twerski,Jungreis, etc.) and likely associated with other really beautiful families, so that is what they knew. Healthy people are usually not attracted to relationships with unhealthy people. They may have seen unhealthy families, but those families wouldn't form their main impression of the "yesteryear Yidden" because that wasn't their primary experience.

However, people who come from families in which everyone in yesteryear went happily flying off the derech hear a different story--though NOT always. Also, if you read writings from the Jews of yesteryear, you hear about quite a lot of bad parenting. The now over-romanticized "simple Jew" was (and still is) often a poor parent, though not ALWAYS, and certainly not all of them! However, there are many sad examples. One is Chaim's story in The Cantonists, a truly heartbreaking glimpse of heartlessly faulty parenting done by Jews of "pure and simple faith".

Regarding at-risk kids and possible reasons: I've read interviews with people who work with at-risk kids, and although there are many different kinds from many different kinds of families, the one thing found in common was that the kids were from homes with poor shalom bayis. Does everyone find this true?

PLEASE don't take this as mud-slinging or an accusation! One could even argue that an at-risk child can be the CAUSE of shalom bayis problems as the parents struggle, possibly in different directions, to deal with the crisis.

Examining parenting techniques is vitally important, however, no one can ever be perfect and it's hard to believe that Hashem set up a system in which He made intrinsically imperfect beings have to be perfect in order to achieve success, an obvious impossibility. Obviously, parents should be able to make chinuch mistakes, even big ones, and still have their kids turn out well. There has never been a parent who DIDN'T make at least one major mistake.

This issue is personal with me because due to in-law interference combined the extremely low emotional intelligence of my husband's highly regarded rosh yeshivah and other esteemed rabbonim, we had a lot of tension in our early years, and our oldest bore the brunt of it, because his formative years were during that hard time. Dr. Sorotzkin mentioned that many oldest children go off the derech and the rest of the children are fine.

I can't help but wonder how much the shalom bayis factor affects the whole thing. My oldest is my most challenging child, and I see this in my friends' families,too. I also see that their oldest was born into a tense home, but as time went by and they learned to deal with each other, the following children are born into a harmonious home. Dr. Sorotzkin gave other reasons, which I think are valid, but I can't help wondering about this, too.

I am not trying to blame Chana or BT or others in their situation. I can blame myself, too. If my oldest does eventually go OTD, people will ask what we did wrong in the home, and I'll have to say, "Well, the shalom bayis was off during his formative years, but I was 20, BT without any support, and everyone was against me and pounding me down all the time, I really tried to be as calm and mature as I could, but it's hard to be wonderful when so many people are tearing you apart, and anyway, I had no clue what I was doing because I'd never been married before." I was a patient, loving, idealistic mother, but my marriage wasn't.

Let me repeat: I am NOT trying to fling blame or accusations, but I'd like a look at the WHOLE picture by people who've worked with families of OTD kids, and those in that parsha. Although the schools can be harsh, a harmonious Jewish home is such a beautiful and powerful influence, I would think it could be able to overcome the schools.

In SOME situations, I think the strong focus on parenting techniques is to avoid the shalom bayis issue. Therapists and rabbonim\rebbetzins can certainly tiptoe around this issue, not just the couple itself. As painful as it is to discuss the wrongdoings of one's child, people seem even more reluctant to admit their marital problems. It's embarrassing for adults to admit that they argue over petty things, or nitpick or yell or verbally abuse (or are the victim of a spouse who yells, etc.) or worse.

My experience in the frum community is that it is very sympathetic and understanding of tired, frustrated, overwhelmed mothers, but it is totally intolerant of tired, frustrated, overwhelmed wives. I imagine the same is true for men, on the flip side.

This is funny because a frustrating child often cannot control its frustrating behaviour (not before a certain age, anyway) but a frustrating spouse certainly could, making it even more frustrating!

I think if we're going to hold parents and schools accountable for this problem, we must include rabbonim and rebbetzins. I know an entire BT family that went off the derech, and it wasn't from just one reason, but one of the reasons was their rabbonim, one of whom is considered a wonderful rav for BTs, and has a lot of experience with BTs. This has been touched on already in some of the previous contributions here, but IMHO, it should be explored just as much parenting techinques, shalom bayis, school, and organic problems such as LD and ADD. Because rabbonim and rebbetzins are considered Religious Authority, they have an extra ability to totally destroy people that your average Yid, and even your therapist or parent, doesn't have.

Of course, I do not refer to rabbonim such as Rabbi Twerski, Rabbi Horowitz and others of their ilk who are the real thing, and may there be many more like them b'Yisrael, b'ezras Hashem.

I just want to end by saying that I am getting a lot of good advice from this discussion, and thank you to everyone.

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I believe firmly that you can and should destinguish the between the two. I believe that this, in all likelihood, causes alot of very bright childrem to go off the derech. in the end, the joke is on us, because these are our future gedolim. these are the kids that are so bright they chap tosefos the first time they read it, and practicaly memorize the gemorah after only reviewing it a couple of times. These are the self same kids who could litteraly complete and understand the entire gemorah by the age of 18 or so, and instead, if anechdotal experience is any evidence, they are being driven straight off the derech because the frum world cannot, or will not acknowledge that this feeling they have is real, legitimate and not childish. Instead they are blamed for being imature and unable to contol themselves, which doesn't tally with reality. The bochur I mentioned, dispite all his contact with girls has never even kissed because he intends to save that for his real besheret, on their wedding day, although he is aware of how overwhelming ones feelings for a loved one can get, and that it can potentialy cause even the best intentioned to mess up.

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Firstly, to answer your quesion, I am extremely fortunate to have one of the most laid back, understanding, calm, mature, respecting, supportive husbands that exist. Although we had the normal altercations expected from two people from different backgrounds learning to live a joined life, I would have a hard time describing our marriage as anything of a shalom bayis issue -- even at the beginning.

However, as I have said previously, every factor that is part of a child's upbringing and environment is going to play a part in influencing how that particular child views the world as well as his emotional health and maturity. The more "bad" influences during his upbringing, the more flaws you will find in his emotional health. We don't have control over all influences, and even the "bad" ones that we gave our children were most likely not done maliciously.

The period of a child's adolescent years is the time in his life when these faults in his emotional health are going to be the most obvious. This is because he is changing into an individual and asserting his own self. Until this point, he was a product of his environment coupled with the character and talent that HKB"H blessed him with. Now, he is starting to assert his mind and thoughts over his character and so this is when his strengths and faults will be more obvious.

As he becomes more mature, he will learn to hide certain parts of his personality and cover up feelings he doesn't want others to see. But during his adolescent years, he is still learning who he is and developing his own self. So, in this way, the teenage years are when a child is most transparent for those who wish to really look and see them instead of judging them for not being an exact image of the parent's dream child.

Due to this tranparency, adolescence is when a child is also the most vulnerable. I believe that this is the reason why teens are so sensitive and "overreact". When a burn victim's first thin layer of skin starts to grow back, would we say that he is overreacting if he screams out in pain when someone just barely brushes up against the wound?

Teens are feeling, living, and thinking much more intensely than they did as a child and probably more than they will as a mature adult. When we say something that judges/criticizes/blames them, their reaction is going to be in proportion with their intensity -- severe. This is also why a parent recognizing, acknowledging, and voicing their teen's feelings and thoughts out loud, is one of the most effective ways to calm a frustrated/angry teen down. Even if the parent doesn't see eye to eye with his teen, just making the child understand that you understand where he is coming from will make it easier for him to listen to you. (But speak fast, with love, and using fewer than 15 words to get your point across -- most teens have a hard time seeing objectively for longer than that even when they are calm!)

Inasmuch as I find it helpful to try to identify as many of the factors that influence my child both as a youngster and specifically as a teen, my sole purpose is to do a cheshbon hanefesh and see if there is anything that I can change in that factor to help my teen feel more secure and loved and connected.

Most factors fall into two categories: public domain and private domain. It is incumbent upon every parent of an at-risk teen to make an honest, personal cheshbon hanefesh of the factors derived from the home environment. If I can identify a factor that is in the public domain, then I can try to garner public awareness of the fault and hope that collectively we can rectify the problem.

Digging for the causes of kids becoming at-risk or going OTD, for the sole purpose of "placing blame where blame is due" is IMHO counterproductive. If there was a shalom bayis issue and it has since been rectified, then leave this factor alone and find something that still needs changing. Dwelling on it and worrying that maybe the experience left your child with a scar is only going to give you feelings of guilt. This will diversely affect your ability to be positive and happy -- a necessary frame of mind throughout your quest to make your child's life more positive and happy.

One more thing: rabbonim, rebbetzins, counselors, psychiatrists, psychologists, etc. all have the power to build or to cause devastating destruction. They are working with, molding, and changing the thought patterns and emotional responses of the people who turn to them for help. If you think about it, you are literally putting your life in the hands of these individuals.

After watching several of my close relatives get messed up by one therapist after the next, I am very wary of turning the interpretation of my problems over to another human being. This is one of the things that made me trust in the ideas behind Choice Theory. There is nobody but me involved. I choose what I want to change in me and I judge the result of the change from my own first-hand feelings. I don't have to describe how I feel to someone else who will interpret what is "really" going on. Nobody else is fiddling around in my psyche and I am not fiddling around in my child's psyche. Just the same, the result is all-encompassing and touches each and every person I have contact with -- first and foremost...myself! I must say that it is one of the most satisfying (and powerful) feelings I have ever had in my adult life -- to watch the evolution of those around me as a result of the positive change I have committed myself to. Working on this together with my husband and eventually my children served to strengthen our family bonds as well.

B'ezras Hashem, if you keep your eyes focused forward, you will find the answers you seek. Hashem helps those who make the effort to help themselves.

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Again life experiences can determine a person's maturity level, and unfortunately kids are not allowed to be kids today. Many young adults are forced into adulthood way too soon. Due to these circumstances they do feel the need to search out companionship and "love" to fullfill their two basic needs one is to "love and be loved" and the other is "to feel accomplished or be prodcutive". These are two major basic needs that everyone posesses from they youngest of ages. It really has nothing to do with a romantic relationship it has to do with fulfilling their basic needs. This is best explained by Dr. William Glasser in his book "Reality Therapy".

This is one of the reasons that our kids are in so much trouble today. Our school system destroy our childrens' self-esteem and self-confidence basically eliminating fullfillment of their needs to "love and be loved - self confidence; and accomplishment and being productive - self-esteem". That is one of the reasons that children seek out relationships to fullfill these needs.

There is another issue I wanted to address. I am second generation survivor. My parents walked through the fire and survived. My mother and her sisters lived through the horrors of Auschwitz. My whole upringing was based on survivival instincts. "I can't" is just not in my vocabulary and I teach that to my clients, "you can and you will accomplish everything you set your mind to." My parents also taught me never to judge anyone till you walked a mile in their shoes. They told me stories of the frumest of the frum who walked into the camps and lost their faith by the time they walked out angry at Hashem that he could let this happen. And then there were stories of the most secular Jews who became the most faithful because they saw the hand of Hashem in every single miracle he produced and couldn't believe and were so grateful that they were chosen to survive and continue the Legacy of the Jewish People. They came out the frumest of the frum. No one knows how they will react when they are tested.

One more thing about the difference between the second generation after the war and this generation. One thing was that we, the children, would never ever hurt our parents no matter what; whether they were good parents or bad because they walked through the fire. They suffered enough and we had the utmost respect for them. We had the most compassion for them, and yes we feared them. Some of us feared their wrath and violence, and some of us feared they would melt down and we would lose them. Some parents spoke of the war all the time and had nightmares and some never said a word.

Family meant everything to us. We savored our relationships with our aunts, unlces, grandparents and cousins. They meant everything to us because if you had extended family you were the lucky ones. Not everyone that came out of the war had anyone at all. If you couldn't speak to your parents about an issue, you had extended family or even your friends parents who were willing to sit and listen to you. And yes Yoni, it wasn't taboo to speak to your cousins of both sexes. Yom Tov was a time for everyone to get together, we even had family cirlces or melave malkas so we didn't lose contact with the family whether they were frum or not.

We don't have that with this generation. Families are so large most cousins wouldn't even recognize each other if they passed in the street. We chose to raise our children differently according to Dr. Spock and Dr. Brazelton. They were the experts. The society praised "permisivenes". We were stupid. The best parenting book is the "Torah".

We wanted to give our children everything we didn't have, every toy and luxury our parents couldn't afford. From Barbie dolls to sleep away camp. In my day if you couldn't afford it you didn't go. In my day nursery was a luxury. My parents were so proud of me because I was tested for Kindergarten and I passed. I didn't need to go to Kindergarten so I waited another year to start first grade. This saved them a year's tuition. Today if you don't send your kid to nursery at 2 you are a bad parent delaying their learning.

In my day, mothers where home when children came home from school and those children whose parents where not were pitied, they were called "latch key keys". Cleaning help was for the wealthy. I actually spoke to a special ed evaluator and we discussed why there are so many kids with this "label" today. We discussed the games special ed teachers are playing with the kids and they include: colors, shapes, numbers, etc. These are all things that as stay at home mothers we naturally did with our kids on a daily basis without even thinking about it. She concurred that since most mothers are working today, and babysitters or daycare workers do not stimulate or work with the kids they just don't have these skills. How sad is that? We are spiraling out of control to the detriment of our children just to keep up with a lifestyle that even our yeshivas are forcing us to keep up with $17,000 per child tuition.

There was another issues in the "60's and early 70's". Yeshivas were pulling kids into school. Many parents couldn't afford it and public school was an option. But there was this new phenomenon and threat in the public school system, drugs. Yeshivas were working overtime to convince parents to bring their kids in. When a parent came into school they were given the utmost respect. Not today, no way unless they have millions in their pocket.

If my parent came to school with a problem they treated them with the utmost respect and actually sat down and listened. (Even offered a cup of coffee). Today parents are afraid to bring an issue into school, because the response is usually "if you don't like it here you can take your child to another school". It is no longer about the child, it is about the school. They are looking for the best only. Well the definition of the best is "better than the rest" so how many can be the best? One or more than one? Is it singular or plural? And what happens to all the just regular normal kids.

I wish someone would open a Yeshiva for just regular, normal kids, who want to just be kids while still getting a good education. I bet they would fill up in a day and a half. Mind you I don't believe they would all come with issues or LD's, they would just be normal kids doing their best to meet their own individual potential.

I would like someone to explain this concept to me. There was a family in the neighborhood sitting shiva. I called two local yeshivas and asked that they sent some boys mincha time for a minyan since men were sitll at work. The response "We can't it would be a bitul zman Torah" doing this mitzvah would be a bitul zman Torah? A few days later I received a call from a distraught mother whose child played a prank in school. His consequence? He was suspended for three days. Let me get this straight. Davening mincha in the house of an avel is a Bitul Zman Torah. Suspending a child for a minor infraction for 3 days is not a Bitul Zman Torah? Someone please explain that to me.

My son went to Bais Moshe (Chana if I messed up the name chalk it up to another senior moment) in Scranton. Not only did they give back to the community that supported them by helping in the house of Shiva they also sent the boys to the cemetery to help with the burial, chas v"shalom that a Jew should be buried by the goyish staff of the cemetery. What do you think the boys learnt from these experiences? How to act like proper Jews and how to put the mitzvos that they learned to practical everyday use.

As teenagers we were very aware of drugs and we chose to stay away from them. If there was a few girls who fell victim we pitied them and had compassion for them. We did our best to help them not join them. We worked for causes, Triple S J, Rabbi Meir Kahane was a constant on our campus. Some of the juniors seniors where dating and there was a Kallah the night before graduation. No one was ever thrown out, but my Principal A"H did offer to arrange a transfer to another school for anyone who did not wish to follow the rules. Most girls complied after the "chat", one or two agreed to the transfer.

Tznius was adhered by way of "fire drills" the Principal and one other teacher was posted at both exits to the building and both were face down looking at skirt lengths not at faces. If they saw a skirt length not adhering to the rules, they would look up and send the student to the office to arrange to go home and change. No one was picked on, it was really very fair. No one had the nerve nor was it the style to wear non-tzniusdik tops.

The principal knew every student by name and his office was always open for a "chat". If you needed a break from a teacher he managed to need you to help him for that period. He alwasys listened to both sides of the story and perferred to work it out within the walls of the school before calling in the parents.

He himself taught the students how to daven and how to take notes. He made the students feel that he cares about each and every one of them and that made a big difference in their educational experience. He was one of a kind.

That was then and this is now. What can we learn from this. There has to be involvement between the mechanchim and the the students. It is not just a job. It is a job that requires love, warmth, understanding and most of all connection. If the connection is not there you are not going to see them meet their potential. They have to connect with you in order to accept information from you. In all honesty, I understand the teaching is difficult, I have been there. But excuses is just not acceptable. You wouldn't accept it from the students and it is unacceptable from the staff. You chose to be mechanchim so you have to put in the effort and the histadlus to find a way to do your job and reach every one of your charges. Ask other mechanchim, do research. Just as students say that teachers don't care that they have 3 tests the next day, they are told to "manage". Your job does not necessarily end when you shut the lights in your classroom. That child's self-esteem and self-confidence is in your hands for the entire year. You have the ability to make or break that child. That is a huge responsibility so don't take it lightly. Another thing it is OK to be wrong. It is also OK to apologize to a student whether you are a Rebbe or a teacher. What does this teach a child. That we are all human and we can all make mistakes. And if the Rebbe or Teacher apologizes for a mistake Kal V'chomer if they make a mistake they should apologize and move forward from there.

So again, I gave over a lot of information and once again nothing to do with the initial topic. Sorry.

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Chana, since you have shared details of your life with us, I hope it's okay to ask you two questions: Have you raised your children in Israel all along or have you made aliya at a later point? What is your and your husband's yeshiva background?

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The casual reader might be taken aback at some of the comments, such as the visceral, angry condemnation of gedolim for being "part of the problem", or the snide response to someone's heartfelt wishes to an individual in pain for resolution and a fruitful life. But in truth, all this is part of the kaleidoscope of heavy feelings, confusion and pain that so characterizes the difficulty of these issues. And it does add to the picture- without some sentiments needing to be "right" or "wrong". We can validate the feelings without necessarily agreeing to them.

Thank you again to Sherree and Chanah for your crucial insights, and also to B Twersky and Yardena.

One additional point, that perhaps was written here already but I missed: as a previously difficult teen myself, and knowing many more, the personality and character of the teen needs to be factored into the equation as well. Let's take a hypothetical family of 6 children, all of them remaining frum, happy to be frum, etc. However, they are all not clones. Some are nice, caring individuals who excel at perspective taking, empathy etc, and others are more self-centered and me-focused. Some know how to respect authority whilst developing their own healthy independence, whilst others in the family have a difficult time with any authority, disliking being given directions in a variety of settings. Let us assume that the parents have excellent parenting skills, and supported the healthy development of each of their children, so that each child developed as best as possible given their innate character and personality, leaving room for growth along the journey of life to continue working with their individual yetzer hara's and fostering better middot.

Carrying over this analogy, teens who are "at risk" are also individuals, and not every scenario is the product of faulty parenting and yeshivot. Yes, those are huge factors, and deficiencies in these areas can stack the odds against even the most "wonderful" child. But just like in any situation, without the hoopla surrounding the "at risk crisis", the teen him/herself needs to be accountable as well, to whatever extent is applicable in the particular situation. Accountable to no one but themselves, because ultimately, each individual leads the way on their own journey. But in all the excellent articles and talk about problems in parenting, problems in yeshivot, problems in the community, we must remember that not all of us are alike, and if 100 years ago those with more difficult middot to overcome manifested these in other ways, today they might be manifested in going OTD, or another, more current, manner. For example, very arrogant teenagers who are convinced that they know best, and easily put down any and all authority, most especially religious authority, might not be a product of fault parenting, yeshivot, or community, but a manifestation of personal middot which need work. Today, when someone lashes out at the community etc, we say, oh, what a pity; there must have been a terrible dynamic in this child's life to produce such chutzpah. Perhaps, but perhaps not. We need to include in our analysis the concept of accountability on the part of the teens themselves- not EVERYTHING is environmental, even though community, yeshiva, and parenting finger pointing find a ready and sympathetic ear, and an almost "easy" answer to a complex dynamic that MAY also include some poor middot and tendencies on the part of the teen that is not a product of anything external to the teen.

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Have you raised your children in Israel all along or have you made aliya at a later point? What is your and your husband's yeshiva background?

Our children were all born and are being raised in Yerushalayim. I grew up an FFB, though my parents are ba'alei teshuvah from traditional/7-day-work-week-so-I-can't-take-off-Shabbos American homes. We only crossed the fine line into "yeshivish" when I was about 10. I attended Bais Yaakov throughout my schooling and went to an Israeli seminary where I first came into contact with Israeli chareidi society and acclimated without problems or culture shocks. My husband was raised in Eretz Yisrael in a yeshivish home, though he is from an American family who made aliyah in the middle of raising their children. I made aliyah when we got married.

Hope this information helps you.

Kol tuv, Chanah

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Here is a quote from Jane Nelsen on consequences Where did we ever get the crazy idea that in order to make children DO better first we have to make them FEEL worse? When people first hear this quote from “Positive Discipline,” they usually laugh as they think about how it doesn’t make sense. However, when it comes to application, it seems that parents, teachers, and students have difficulty accepting that people do better when they feel better. here is a summary of Unhappy Teenagers http://www.explosivekids.org/dcforum/DCForumID2/158.html

There is no reason why this approach should used for younger kids . As Myrna Shure says when you talk to your kids and problem solve when they are young, they will talk to you , trust you to help them with their problems , become good problem solvers as well when they are older If William Glasser speaks to you , Alfie KOhn will also http://www.alfiekohn.org/up/content/excerpt.asp see his site as well

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And especialy if you don't judge them for their problems, which admittedly can be pretty hard when you're emotionaly involved.

Oh, and another sugestion, if at somepoint your child does pick up a friend who is helpful rather that a partner in crime, please facilitate said friendship, and show a friendly disposition towards him/her, even if the child isn't otherwise entirely ok. They may surprise you sometime by giving you heads up about what is going wrong in your child's life, or you may be able to ask the friend if there is genuinely anything you can do to help him/her. (I would not, however, sugest prying by asking details, just ask exactly that, express concern about your child, and ask them if they think there is anything you could really do to help. Details likely are not forthcoming unless the child volenteers them, and doing so will only earn you aninymity of both.)

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...a friend who is helpful rather that a partner in crime, please facilitate said friendship ... even if the child isn't otherwise entirely ok

I'm interested in understanding what someone from your perspective would consider a friend who was "helpful but not otherwise entirely okay".

I ask because although, in theory, I agree with you, I can't think of an example of such a person unless you are refering to someone who has a healthy view on life and is mature and responsible toward himself and those around him -- regardless of his religious affiliations (assuming he isn't missionizing another religion).

If this IS the type of person you are referring to, my experience is that most teens at risk don't usually have the blessing of making such friends.

Thanks for helping me understand.

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But at the same time she would never have influenced me to be likewise, and I don't quite know how to express it, but she helped. She was constructive. (although perhaps other than being depressed, struggling sometimes with davening, tefillin, and frequently talking to girls, I never engaged in many of the other at risk behaviors like drinking, smoking, drugs, mechallel shabbos (ok, exactly twice, and I still wince when I think about it, and felt bad about it even when I did it. Nor were they under the most healthy of circumstances) stealing, real promiscuity, etc.)

Basicaly in my case, she listened. She cared. Once when I was suicidal she came to sit with me. This is dispite her being "not tznius" (although she is respectfull of tzniut in shul, and I'm certain i've never seen the worst of what she wears). She would have never encouraged me to engage in similar behaviors, or done anything like that

basicaly all I'm trying to say is that if the friend is having a positive impact on your child and not a negative impact, my sugestion is to facilitate the friendship, even though there may be character traits that you may object to. (like being loose, provided they don't encourage it in your child. Some people might object to a modern orthodox friend or non-observant friend. Sometimes, I suppose, the objection may simply be that its the opposite sex (in which case one qould expect as a prerequisite that the child is not misbehaving with said friend)) If you encourage friends that are contributing to a solution of some kind, you may be able to apply positive selective pressure to limit contact with friends who are contributing to the problem, by facilitating friendships that are contributing to the solution, and thereby making it much easier for the child to spend time with said friend, which will likewise lead to spending less time with others.

(although in my case in particular it should be noted that I was the little elementery schooler who hung out with the girls, and ignored the "cootie question", so perhaps the boy girl side of said issue doesn't apply to most people, I have to admit I simply do not know.)

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Selfish attitudes, viloent behavior, and other behavioral issues can and should be able to be diagnosed in early childhood or as a child develops. If not treated or addressed appropriately it can turn into an at-risk situation because the child is truly hurt within because they feel that they are not "loved and cared for" because their needs are not being met. They usually feel ignored or given up on. Their need to "love and be loved" or "feel accomplished and productive" is not met and therefore they lose their self-esteem and self-confidence sometimes hidden by a false bravado.

We have a responsibility to our children to be alert and aware of all their issues. It is a 24/7 job and it is very hard and very tiring. Children do not come with instruction books nor with guarantees. No one promised it was going to be easy, but B"H we do derive much nachas from them.

To AK, you are very adimant in your beliefs and although I am a big believer in what I say and it has worked very well for my clients, following the Choice Theory method of responsibility and accountability. And understanding that life is governed by rules and what every action you choose will naturally bring you either a reward or consequence throughout your entire life. I don't understand the permissive attitude not holding children accountable for their actions and just discussing things with them. If children do not have to do anything in the form of correction for their behavior what will keep them from repeating a poor choice in the future? I can't believe that when they are together with their friends ready to make a poor choice they will say "oh, if I do this I will have one of those discussions again with my mother."

Consequences do not equal torture. When a consequence is appropriate to an offense and especially when a child is involved in choosing the consequence they learn to make better choices. If they break curfew and they can't go out the next night I don't understand why you would see that as "torture" or suffering. It does not extract a pound of flesh, deny them of their sustenance, or effect their health or emotional well being. It teaches them that if you take advantage of a privilege you are at risk of losing those very same privileges.

In "real life" if you decide to speed excessively you will have your drivers license suspended. Driving is a privilege and if you don't respect that, it comes with a consequences. That's life.

I would ask you to please give examples of how your premise has worked in raising your own children and the outcome of never offering any consequences or rules to be followed.

Thanking you in advance for sharing the outcome of the practice of your theory and not just your theory.

Sherree

PS. I do apologize if my posts come out sounding fierce. I do fiercely defend the At-Risk population both parents and children due to the lack of sensitivity, understanding and unrelenting judgment of them and their decisions. It is a heartbreaking experience visiting your clients in detention, standing with them in front of a judge in family court, at an ACS meeting, convincing a child that their parents do actually love them, a parent that a child needs to hear that they love them, and then defend them to the outside world.

Teaching a parent to see things through the eyes of the child from their point of view and vice a versa takes tremendous patience. Teaching outsiders to understand that the parents and or children did not ask for this nisayon and they can't fix it by following "their" particular advice is draining and exhausting. Again there is just so much that one can't possibly understand unless you are willing to get involved in the parsha. Please accept my apologies if I offended anyone.

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I think these are fair questions, given what you have said and your challenge to Ak to provide personal examples.

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R' Horowitz or others may also caution against going to those with inappropriate experience- would you have the chutzpah to ask him about his own children too? I think you're missing some basic derech eretz. NO ONE, should EVER, ask someone point blank this question. It reflects terribly on the questioner, and no one should feel obliged to answer such blatant rudeness.

If you don't agree with Sherree's ideas or insights, don't, I'm sure there are many who disagree with R' Horowitz or R' Twersky. That's the way people are- we're all different. I myself have gained tremendously from her words, but we don't have to be alike. But your question? Way, way out of the bounds of civil decency.

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I would ask you to please give examples of how your premise has worked in raising your own children and the outcome of never offering any consequences or rules to be followed.

is polite and fair.

Puleeze

This is R' Horowitz's blog. I am finding the responses to this segment annoying. It's nice when disparate people have insights to contribute, but I am not enjoying the take-over of the comment section, not by Alfie Kohn material, not by Sherree's perspective as presented in numerous, lengthy, and abrasive comments, even when I agree with some points.

I don't think the comment section is a place for people to present their personal challenges (as nice as Chana and Yardena and others sound) for others to respond to.

Too many of the comments are digressions from the topic to a dialogue among strangers about personal problems.

If I am reading material on this website, it is because I think Rabbi Horowitz is worth my time and the comments are sometimes stimulating. If someone wanted to speak to him personally about a chinuch problem, I think it would be wise to find out how he did with his own children.

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You enjoy R' Horowitz's articles- so do we all, or we wouldn't be here. A blog is a place where others may contribute, and all are free to take or reject opinions, as they are just that- opinions. Of course, R' Horowitz's articles are opinions as well, but they carry more weight, as this is his site, which obviously attracts us all.

If you don't like parents coming here discussing their painful issues, if you don't like AK's discussion on Alfie Kohn, if you don't like Sherree's insight gleaned from her experience, why are you reading the comment section? Are there ANY comments you do like? It is apparent that R' Horowitz feels commenters are gaining from the dialogue- he rarely inserts a comment among the discourse, and leaves it up to the readers to discuss the themes, including tangents that readers segue into.

And yes, it's OK for Sherree to ask AK for some concrete examples of his theory- that is not PERSONAL, even if it relates to his own children. It is examples of a theory. I actually thought AK answered that one very well, and it shed more practical light on the ideas he presents. It is NOT Ok to ask Sherree if she had a child who WENT OTD or on drugs and if became frum because of her theories- if you can't tell the difference, that is astounding.

Apparently not you, but many of us are here because we DO have "personal problems". It's very sad that you don't see the value of real life parents sharing their pain and sharing their experiences and strategies which worked- although I am happy for you that this does not interest you. It is good that you enjoy the intellectual stimulation that R' Horowitz provides- reading the articles in the Mishpacha might be a better choice for you. The nature of a blog is different from a magazine, and opinions, so long as they are within the bounds of civil discourse, don't pose any problem to most people who read and gain from blogs.

This statement was the most puzzling of all:

"If someone wanted to speak to him personally about a chinuch problem, I think it would be wise to find out how he did with his own children"

Every written question that precipitates an article from R' Horowitz on this site was someone "speaking to him personally about a chinuch problem". With more anonymity, of course, and perhaps with less detail than optimal, but they didn't post these questions on the nearest train station billboard, to be randomly picked off by R' Horowitz. They were specifically directed at him, because they (and many of us) believe he has the experience, expertise, and knowledge to answer the chinuch problem they pose. Have you seen anyone preface the question by saying, "Rabbi, before addressing my chinuch problem, can you please give me personal details about your own children, if they were on drugs, and where exactly they are holding now?" I assume that with a wonderful father as R' Horowitz, they are doing well, but it is none of my, or anyone's business!! If you want his expertise, ask for it. If you don't trust it, don't! Same with bloggers who have more experience than the laymen here. If you like R' Twersky's opinions on the subject, take them to heart. If not, disregard them! If you like Sherree's opinions on the subject, take them to heart! If not, disregard them! For that matter, if you like AK's presentation on Alfie Kohn's ideas, take them to heart! If not, disregard them! You can ask someone for more practical examples of application in their family on the theories presented. But no, and it is SO SAD that I even have to say this, it is NOT appropriate to ask if someone's child went off the derech, and how they are doing now frum-wise.

If you go to a speech on parenting for children at risk, do you raise your hand and ask personal questions regarding the frumkeit of the presenter's children, to "verify" if they have adequate experience to coach others? Hopefully not! Hopefully, if you don't like what the person is saying, you either sit quietly until the end, or leave just as quietly. On a blog, you didn't make the decision to go to a speech, but you did make the decision to visit the blog. You don't have to like everything, and it is perfectly appropriate to debate away, and question whatever you'd like to question. WITHOUT asking if someone's children are frum or have had problems!!! You can ask Sherree, "I'm not sure that what you are saying is appropriate in a typical family setting (or whatever your point of contention is), can you give me some examples of how you have carried _____ out in your own family, and the outcomes of these, or real life examples of other families you've coached, so I can judge for myself if your theories bear out?"

You asked, and I feel sick even reprinting it here, "Are you saying that you have personally experienced the agony of your own child going off the derech, drugs, suicide-atttempts etc.? ... I was wondering about your own experience. And if this has been your experience, what did you do to turn it around and is your child frum today?"

You asked if someones children went off the derech! You asked if someone's children have been involved in drugs or suicide attempts! Do you do that at dinner parties, if someone offers their insight into parenting at risk children?! I am glad that you find it hard to relate to parents going through this agony, and prefer not to see their comments on the board. But please think next time, before asking someone such personal, deeply rude questions. The internet isn't the politest place to hang out, but there ARE some basic lines of decency.

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I, too, am familiar with Devorah Weiss's focus on parent-teen relationships. Giving up controlling behaviors - Glasser writes there are more than just 7 Deadly Habits (nagging, punishing/consequences, confronting, criticizing ETC) and replacing them with the tools and skills from the "Parent as Coach" approach is a winning combination. Discussing these ideas and principles with a professional who applies these skills and tools (how to respect, listen and understand etc) to each person's unique family situation is essential.

Unfortunately, coach and director Sherree Belsky - you have seriously MISrepresented Choice Theory. Your posts (several of them) demonstrate a lack of the most basic understanding. Please consider a full week of CT/RT training (contact WG Institute)for starters. It is a disservice to all of Rabbi Horowitz's readers to write your expert OPINIONS of consequences, responsibililty, accountabilitly and pass them off as Choice Theory. Perhaps you'd consider some additonal training before posting again.

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I appreciate the concepts underlying choice theory. I also appreciate Ms. Belsky's extraordinary ability to 'cut to the chase' and understand what teenagers and parents are going through.

Truthfully, I'm sure many of us would benefit from a week's training with Ms. Belsky.

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I don't know how and why we got into this conflict which seems to be taking on a life of its own. You don't seem to understand what I am saying. We both seem to respect and admire Dr. Glasser and I do consider him my teacher. I am reading his books one after the other and I do base my coaching and mentoring program on the tools I learn from him.

You misunderstood me. Children do not "choose" their consequence however they are involved in the discussion and thereby are listened to, heard and understood, and have input. Conversations and communications are vital to any relationship especially to a parent/child relationship. When a child makes a poor choice and "suffers" a consequence it is a learning tool and he/she understands via discussion that when they chose the choice they made they also chose the results of that choice. The consequence is never harmful to the child because parents should never do anything intentional to harm a child and again there is the same discussion that you have with the child as to "what do you think you could have or should have done differently in this circumstance to bring about a different outcome". The next time the child is faced with a similar situation they will remember to choose differently.

Privileges and rewards are something earned according to one's actions and it could be as simple as feeling really good about oneself as a result of one's actions. It is a natural result of a good choice or action. It is not a bribe. I don't understand why you are reading my words and interpreting in this manner.

In addition I firmly believe and we can agree to disagree, that children need guidelines and boundaries to feel loved and cared for. As they get older, they mature and prove to be more responsible, these boundaries can and should be renegotiated accordingly. We have to teach our children to live in the real world and guide them in their choices before the fact and of course correct them after. In my humble opinion it is unrealistic to believe that we can allow our children not to be accountable and responsible for their actions because when they step into the real world they will have to face the reality of priveleges and consequences. The judge, boss, cop, professor, doctor, etc. will be very happy to explain the concept of privileges and consequences very clearly in the real world for anyone who doesn't get it.

But that is what I believe in and the platform from which I work. If what you do works for you, as they say "different strokes for different folks".

As to "anon" who asked for my personal info. I agree that it was rude and unfair to ask about my personal info since unlike yourself I am not protecting neither myself nor my family by anonymity here. I used my own name and title to assist and share my knowledge and experience with those who were interested. I will say this though. In the past 13 years, I have had 11 boys at various times, for various periods of time and for various reasons living in my home. B"H they are all doing well now, some are married and some have completed college. They are all Shomer Torah and mitzvos today, and two became Breslov. I already have "4" marrieds from these kids, "3" babies and one on the way.

I have one boy that I have been connected with and mentoring for the past 5 years that I consider my son. He lived in my home 3 times. I also have 2 "daughters" that I have been connected with for the past 5 years. One married with a one year old, and one in the shidduch parsha.

I have been involved in 3 suicide preventions (all girls), and often tease my friends when speaking shidduchim...if you make 3 shidduchim you automatically get "Gan Eden". If you save 3 lives do you also automatically get "Gan Eden"?

I have raised money to send kids to rehab, Yeshivot in E"Y and send kids to summer camp. I do have my own way of doing things and as I said everything I do is based on the "survivor's" instinct. I do it because I love and respect each and every one of these kids and they respect me back.

Can you imagine walking into an At-Risk Yeshiva and the boys whispering to each other to put their yarmulkas on because Mrs. B is in the building? They did this out of respect for me, because they knew how it hurt me to see them walking around in a makom kodesh without their yarmulkas. I didn't tell them to, but because I respected them they always respected me and didn't want to hurt me. That is because they knew I would never ever intentionally hurt them either. I opened my home to them, I fed them, I listened to them and even helped with their homework. At midnight my husband sent them home.

At times I would get a call from the Yeshiva in the morning that they were missing boys could I please check my bedrooms. When I looked I found six or seven boys sleeping in the back bedrooms, on the beds and carpet. They went upstairs instead of back to the dorms. I told them to please get up the Rebbe needed them for Shachris and would be here any minute to pick them up. This happened at least 5 times during that year.

I have had very extraordinary experiences in the past 5 years. I have had tremendous nachas from my clients. I have also never charged anyone a single red cent for my services. I have always worked only for chessed and for the success of these children and their families.

I hope this satisfies your need for information and curiousity. And again when a person is not "anonymous" please be courteous enough to not be too curious.

Sherree

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"I don't think the comment section is a place for people to present their personal challenges (as nice as Chana and Yardena and others sound) for others to respond to.

Too many of the comments are digressions from the topic to a dialogue among strangers about personal problems."

"Personal problems" are what this blog is all about. Collectively, many "personal problems" translate to community problems. The original article itself centered around a "personal problem", R' Horowitz's cogent response to a personal question. Parents who contribute their own experiences to this blog are the most valuable of all, and I as a parent read every word of Chanah, Yardena, and others very carefuly. I think they are the point of this blog.

Parent/teen issues are not "digressions from the topic"; they, quite frankly, are the topic. I hope you come to realize this.

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And my appologies for having sort of started this, as I was the source of mrs. belsky's complaint, which irked M (to whom I am greatfull for the support. It is something I have received precious little of) and which set the tone ratcheting up.

please?

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I have been reading all the comments, and I don't think you were the source of anything, but it certainly is darchei shalom to say it in that context!

I do hope that commenters will take your (very respectfully worded) plea to heart, and refrain from disparaging the nature of comments, the ideas of others, and certainly, from expressing themselves inappropriately to others. This has been such a civil blog- everyone should be welcomed to participate in this important discourse.

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I have to agree with Dasi and AK in that the opinions you have expressed here regarding consequences and responsibility are of a controling nature and will not work with most teens -- especially those at risk. Chana pointed this out quite clearly in comment #91 above. In fact, in most cases following this advice will hurt the parent/teen relationship. If you used these tactics with your clients, the only reason they worked was because you weren't their parent. Often outsiders can get away with more than parents can in regard to dealing with teens with issues. Most of these teens will tune out the parent before he/she even starts talking. If I say to my daughter, "Maybe check in the mirror, I think that skirt might be too short to wear out of the house." I'm just stupid and don't know what I'm talking about. But if her mentor says it to her, even in a more forceful/controlling manner, she'll run right home and change.

If you did use these tactics with your own children, did you find that they were all as respecting and responsive as you describe your clients to be? I find it hard to believe that the answer is yes. However, if your answer is affirmative, I would have to say that your kids are extraordinary and your parent/child bond with them must be amazing -- well above the average blogger on this site.

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Sarah, could it be that you too are interpreting Sheree's understanding of "consequences" in a way that is familiar to you, and not in consonance with Sherree's intent? In response to AK's excellent question, she explained (as written above) that a "consequence" is what follows an action, not something a parent "imposes on child". As Sherree explained, a consequence can be something like a child feeling good about their choices. She is labeling what occurs after the action, not recommending the parent "do" something "to the child" following the poor choice.

For example, if my child fails to study for an exam, she may not receive the grade she was hoping for. She might be feeling regretful that she did not put in appropriate effort, or some other not great feeling. Her grade, as well as the accompanying feelings of regret, are consequences of the lack of adequate studying. A discussion regarding this, which I personally label cause and effect and Sherree labels "natural consequences", can be very helpful in supporting a child as he/she tries to problem solve and sort out concrete steps that might help in bringing about a more desired outcome articulated by the child for the future.

Sherree, please correct me if I am getting you wrong- this is how I understood your concept of consequence.

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Sherree's previous comments state her opinion of how parents should be pro-active with consequences -- and not just when their children are young, also when they are old enough to be "breaking curfew". That sounds to me like a teen. As Chana wrote in comment #71 (sorry, I gave the wrong number in my previous post), "...once the child starts to become a teenager, he may begin to see consequences as controlling. And, if that teen turns into an at-risk teen, you are going to have to tread very carefully."

Here are some of Sherree's previous remarks above in this blog:

In comment # 66:

"Consequences that are fair and appropriate to the action teaches a child that mistakes happen but it does not end your life. A consequence has a begining and an end. And when the consequence is over the incident is put to rest. An incident is just that, one incident it should not alter your life and you should not be reminded of it ever day of your life."

"The appropriate consequence gives them an opportunity to learn from their mistake. ... Letting them off without holding them accountable for their actions is not guiding them appropriately. When the consequence is over you can tell them how much you respect them for handling the consequence maturely and appropriately."

In comment #60:

"For instance if a child breaks a curfew and is grounded for the next day or for the next weekend it makes a lot more sense and easier to accomplish than yelling at a child and grounding them for life. You know you can't follow through on something like that. The child is also aware before they break the curfew that they will give up going out the next night or the next weekend it is their choice and they know you will enforce that. So they are in essense choosing the consequence when choosing to break the rule. Even if you have to give up your night out and stay home with the child, you must enforce the consequence."

"...ask what he thinks would be an appropriate consequence for the action. You don't have to choose his consquence but allow him to have an opinion and be part of the process. ... when it is clear that you have each understood each other you can decide on a consequence."

#108

"Consequences do not equal torture. When a consequence is appropriate to an offense and especially when a child is involved in choosing the consequence they learn to make better choices. If they break curfew and they can't go out the next night I don't understand why you would see that as "torture" or suffering. It does not extract a pound of flesh, deny them of their sustenance, or effect their health or emotional well being. It teaches them that if you take advantage of a privilege you are at risk of losing those very same privileges."

IMHO, the above form of consequences is completely controlling in nature.

So, for the sake of knowing if this shitah is applicable to one working with their own child who is a teen at risk, I still ask if Sherree used this form of consequences and responsibility with her own children and if she found that they responded as respectfully and positively as her clients.

Respectfully yours, Sarah

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True story: Last night I had a Yeshiva meeting in the home of a parent in our school. When I entered the house, the mother of my talmidim commented to me that her housework is a bit behind because she was reading all the comments posted on this column!

I would like to compliment all of you for your thoughtful and meaningful comments -- on this column and all others.

This validates my lifelong trust in 'we the people' to self-regulate and do the right thing. I ran my classroom that way all my teaching years and try to run this website in that manner -- stepping in from time to time when needed, but mostly trusting all of you to keep things civil and decent.

As you can imagine, many or most people told me that I would never be able to keep this site open to unscreened comments for more than a day or two. Well, it's almost a full year, and I am proud to say that I never needed to close the comment capacity.

That is a tribute to all of you and I am grateful for your participation.

Parenting is more challenging now than ever, and these discussions are most important.

I encourage all our readers to participate in our parenting forums -- you can find a link on each page of this site. Use it to post questions about any parenting matters that come to mind.

Once again, my thanks.

Yakov

BTW; I am speaking this morning at 11 am at the OU parenting conference in Passaic if any of you would like to attend. YH

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Chana and Sarah W highlighted the essence of Choice Theory (taught to me by Devorah W). EXTERNAL CONTROL - consequenses as described by Sherree - DESTROYS RELATIONSHIPS! (One wonders where all of Sherree's OWN children are holding ?????) And as the original letter write communicated - they have an excellent relationship with their irrelgious son. Kol hakavod. Giving up controlling behaviors (such as destructive consequences outlined by Sherree) will resuscitate the relationship and everyone will get along better immediately. Parents who "control" become disconnected from their precious teens. Consequences imposed increases resentfullness, confrontation and power struggles. We all learn best from natural consequences - if I choose to speed, I'll get a ticket, if I choose to eat brownies all day, I'll gain weight, if I choose nag, blame, and punish (impose consequences) I risk damaging my parent/teen relationship. Our INFLUENCE on teens is much stronger when based on a meaningful and loving (and mutual) relationship.

TO the parents who wrote the letter: BH you have a loving relationship with your son. KEEP IT UP - there's nothing more powerful than authentic NONcontrolling UNconditional love. It sounds to me like you are doing everything right!

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IMHO:

Children should be raised with boundaries and guidelines, they need this to feel loved and cared for.

From the time they are small they should be raised on the premise of reward/privilege and consequence. This is not a form of external control this is called "parenting" and preparing them for the real world; teaching them to be accountable and responsible individuals.

I never said to start when teens are in the parsha and I never said to be "pro-active" with consequences.