Please enable JavaScript in your browser to experience all the custom features of our site.

RabbiHorowitz.com

Mr. Harry Skydell, Chairman
Mr. Mark Karasick, Vice Chairman
Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, Director
Rabbi Avrohom M. Gluck, Director of Operations
The first 1000 members will have a chance to win a
16 GB
iPod
touch
with Rabbi Horowitz audio

Membership Benefits:

  • The ability to post to the forums.
  • Save articles to your favorites folder.
  • Save and print selected articles in a PDF journal.
  • Receive emails containing the latest comments on your favorite articles.
  • Mark articles as "READ".
  • More member features coming soon...

Raffle Rules:

NO PURCHASE NECESSARY. To enter, complete the signup form and join as a member. Incomplete entries will be disqualified. All entries shall become the property of CJFL. CJFL is not responsible for lost, misdirected or delayed entries.

The contest is open to the general public. Members need to be at least 18 years old. Identification must be produced on request. Employees of CJFL, its raffle sponsor, advertising and promotional agencies and their respective affiliates and associates and such employees' immediate family members and persons with whom such employees are domiciled are excluded from this raffle. ALL PREVIOUSLY REGISTERED MEMBERS WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY ENTERED INTO THIS RAFFLE. The prize is not redeemable in cash and must be accepted as awarded. Decisions of the raffle judges are final - no substitutions will be available. By claiming the prize, the winner authorizes the use, without additional compensation of his or her name and/or likeness (first initial and last name) and municipality of residence for promotion and/or advertising purposes in any manner and in any medium (including without limitation, radio broadcasts, newspapers and other publications and in television or film releases, slides, videotape, distribution over the internet and picture date storage) which CJFL may deem appropriate. In accepting the prize, the winner, acknowledges that CJFL may not be held liable for any loss, damages or injury associated with accepting or using this prize. CJFL retains the rights, in its absolute and sole discretion, to make substitutions of equivalent kind or approximate value in the event of the unavailability of any prize or component of the prize for any reason whatsoever. This contest is subject to all federal, provincial and municipal laws. CJFL reserves the right to withdraw or terminate this raffle at any time without prior notice. One entry per person.


Money Matters
by Rabbi Yonasan Rosenblum
Publication: Mishpacha Magazine

  Rated by 15 users   |   Viewed 2471 times since 12/27/07   |   34 Comments
Decrease Font Size Increase Font Size    [ Change Font Size ] Email This Article to a Friend
   

12/27/07

The ADVA Institute has just issued it latest report on Israel's deepening income gap. According to the report, nearly one in five wage earners are living below the poverty line.

Typically, the release of new poverty figures generates large headlines in the chareidi press, and the figures are seized upon as proof of the government's failure in this area and of the need to return child subsidies to former levels.

That is not going to happen, I would guess, no matter how grim the poverty figures. Periodically, particular coalition constellations – such as the current government's need to retain Shas in the coalition – may lead to a temporary increase in child subsidies. But there are important factors militating against a dramatic long-term rise in child subsidies.

By far the largest beneficiaries of child subsidies are the Arab sector: There are over twice as many Arabs as chareidim in Israel. Since the cut in child subsidies, there has been a substantial drop in the Arab birthrate (which, Baruch Hashem, has not been accompanied by a parallel drop in the chareidi birthrate). The decline in Arab birthrates is crucial to Israel's demographic survival.

Future government efforts to relieve poverty are more likely to take the form of a negative income tax and job-training programs. Even economist Milton Friedman, the great champion of free market capitalism and opponent of the welfare state, supported a negative income tax, which returns money to low-income wage earners. (Unlike raising the minimum wage, a negative income tax does not create a disincentive to employers to hire new workers.) But the negative income tax only benefits those who are working.

Besides the likely futility of relying on a return to previous levels of child support, an over focus on government subsidies can cause us to forget an important fact: the primary responsibility for supporting our families rests upon us. While the Israeli chareidi community has been largely untouched by the social pathologies associated with welfare recipients around the world, a certain "culture of dependency" – the sapping of individual initiative that accompanies long-term dependence on welfare – has not entirely passed us by.

More than twenty years ago, while returning from the levaya of the Steipler Gaon, zt"l, I asked my rosh yeshiva, why the Chazon Ish had chosen to live in Bnei Brak, rather than in the "old yishuv" of Jerusalem. He replied that the Chazon Ish felt that more than 200 years of the "chaluka" system (contributions from Jewish communities abroad) had deprived the "old yishuv" of its vitality, and he hoped to build something entirely new in the "new yishuv." And that was before there were any government social benefits to speak of.

We tell ourselves that poverty in the chareidi world is a function of our commitment to Torah learning. And to a large extent that is true. But there are large pockets of endemic poverty in our world that have little to do with Torah learning. The majority of those who descend on every affluent Torah community abroad are not in full-time learning nor do their efforts allow them much time for Torah study.

Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky once explained wryly how the halacha that one should fast on a yahrtzeit had been replaced by serving food in honor of the deceased. The intermediate step, he suggested, was that people who found fasting too difficult made a siyum instead in honor of the departed parent. But eventually, people forgot about the siyum, and all that was left in place of the fast was the food. In a similar fashion, the primacy of Torah learning has too often become transformed into a disdain for work even when the Torah learning has been forgotten. That disdain finds no support in Torah sources.

A 19-year-old appeared at my door recently, and told me he was collecting for his family of 13. I gave him a fairly large sum, but when he returned a few weeks later, I asked him whether he was still learning in yeshiva. He looked at me as if I were crazy to think that he could still be learning while serving as the principal support for his large family.

I told him that I was impressed by how articulate he was, and felt that he had talents that could be developed. But if he continued on his present path, he could look forward to remaining a schnorrer for the rest of his life. If so, he would simply join a growing community in which begging is the most common "profession," and in which there is no social safety net in tragic cases because there are so few within the extended family or social circle who work. He was profoundly grateful when I referred him to a chareidi-run job training program.

Severing the relationship between individual effort and money, as government welfare benefits tend to do, leads to distortions of everything connected to family finances. Shmuel Margulies, the founder of Mesila, an organization that assists debt-ridden chareidi families and businesses, told me not long ago that when he first opened his doors, he thought it would be sufficient to provide families with loans and a bit of counseling to help put them back on their feet. He soon realized, however, that without financial counseling the families would, in most cases, quickly find themselves back in the same position as before. And eventually, he came to the conclusion that even before counseling there needs to be a full-scale revamping of how we educate our young about finances.

When I was a kid – admittedly not yesterday – it was common for parents, even affluent ones, to tell their children to earn the money for something like a bicycle. And summer jobs were part of life. In that way, we learned something of the value of a dollar. The near year around yeshiva schedule does not provide Israeli chareidi boys with similar opportunities to learn those lessons.

A disconnect between effort and family income, which is one effect of government benefits, creates a sense of entitlement to even those things that would have been considered unimaginable luxuries one or two generations ago, including an apartment for every newlywed couple. Even in families struggling to make basic ends meet, it is not uncommon to find a number of children with their own cell phone and family cell phone bills of a thousand shekels or more per month. In supermarkets catering to the cost-conscious chareidi consumer, one still sees shopping carts piled high with soft drinks and junk food that are not only unhealthy but costly.

Poverty is exacting a terrible toll on the Israeli chareidi community. The government has an important role to play in reducing the deepening despair. But so do we as individuals and as a community.



To sign up for Rabbi Horowitz’s weekly emails, please click here.


Reader's Comments:      Rating & Comments Policy      Rate & Write a Comment!
 Average Rating:              Rated by 15 users    (34 comments)
Subscribe to this Article
(by subscribing you will receive email notification
when new comments are posted)

Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


1. not stating the obvious     12/27/07 - 1:40 PM
Yehoshua

Rabbi Yonasan Rosenblum dances around the main issue here, I suppose out of deference (fear?) of those running the system.

What are the primary causes of this poverty? Two interrelated issues: full-time kollel until an advanced age and the army. This is what forces so many to stay in yeshiva, learning or not, affordable or not. This is what results in a severe social stigma associated with working and the social shunning of those who do what is proper and right for them. This should be obvious to all by this time.

But what is there to do at this point? The leadership (read Gdolim) could change the course of things with a concerted push towards limited-time enlistment in all-charedi, all-mail army units and a push to get a job after 1-2 years of kollel for the average guy. Sounds simple, but will or can they do it? Will people even listen if they suggested it?

The other option is for individuals to make their own choices. Of course they would suffer the consequences of shunning / shidduchim etc. Can we expect 18-22 year old charedi boys (and their parents) to go against the tremendous current?

The third option occurs where there is a total collapse of the economic and social structures in Eretz Yisroel. This could (chas v'shalom) result from a total cut in welfare support, a costly war, or major world recession. Such an event would require desperate measures and the social view of work / army would change dramatically.

The fourth option is changing public opinion through articles such as these and others. The hope would be to change the chinuch system from the grass roots, most likely by creating new schools not controlled by the current charedi leadership. This will take a LONG TIME, if it works.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


2. quandry     12/27/07 - 4:05 PM
Gershon

I strongly agree withone of the points Yehoshua wrote above - namely that change will have to come from the people.

But we are left in a very difficult position. We want to listen to our gedolim, but if we do we commit financial suicide. If we don't listen and go to work and advise our children to do the same, we are left in limbo; respecting our gedolim from afar, but always knowing that we didn't listen.

Never mind the shunning, you get past that and find others who agree with you and you don't feel so shunned after a while.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


3. a digression     12/27/07 - 6:33 PM
Anonymous

I'd like to comment on the statement about fasting or not fasting on a yartzeit. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai said the day of his passing (Lag B'Omer) should be observed with great celebration.

Centuries later, it became the Chassidic practice to mark the passing of a tzaddik with a l'chaim and mezonos. It became the general practice not to fast on a yartzeit. Nothing to do with making a siyum or forgetting the practice of making a siyum.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


4. More Than a Single Issue     12/27/07 - 8:26 PM
Baruch Horowitz - Brooklyn, NY - borhowitz@yahoo.com

"Rabbi Yonasan Rosenblum dances around the main issue here..."

He addresses that aspect in the Summer 2004 Jewish Action(linked below), and I'd recommend that article whether one agrees fully with it or not because it sheds light on the "main issues". This article in Mishpacha, however, is also still relevant in of itself.

http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5764/5764summ/ISRAELSN.PDF


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


5.     12/28/07 - 2:42 AM
Shuli M

WOW!!!!

The truth is that the system is collapsing and won't last for too long.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


6. Great article     12/30/07 - 4:24 AM
Yardena - EY

I was so relieved to see an article on this topic, and I feel Yehoshua and Gershon added extremely valid points to it.

Anytime we decide to supercede halachah (the attitude of: "I know better that Hashem!" chas v'shalom), regardless of our lofty intentions, we run into trouble. This has been shown throughout Jewish history, and this is what we're seeing today.

If halachah, DOES need to be superceded, that's already built into the halachic system. For example, saving a life supercedes Shabbos, so you can transgress hilchos Shabbos to fulfill hilchos saving a life, and "transgression" IS the fulfillment of the halachah for that situation. But that's not what's going on in the subject discussed above.

Men are halachically obligated to provide financially for the family. (And the woman is supposed to do her best to keep the spending within his earnings, and halachah also allows her to get a job, either out of boredom or the desire to assist financially.) For that matter, men are halachically obligated to give their children a chinuch. The masoret and minhagim come through the man and he's supposed to give it all over. The masculine nature is to be a giver. (This is why masculine nouns in Hebrew are generally 'giving', such as the words for precipitation-geshem, matar, tal, etc. Or tree, eitz, which gives forth fruit.)

We are seeing problems because frum men and women are pressured to let women take over the man's nature and halachah. The excuse is presented as "lishma", i.e., "for the heilige Torah", and anyway, "the woman is the ikeres habayis, so her role is more important than his", thus implying that the husband doesn't matter so much. Very un-Jewish and very condescending, and taken right out of the Women's Liberation movement. Then, of course, women are told to crown their husbands as king, thereby toeing the Jewish hashkafic line and showing that they're not REALLY influenced from the feminists. Hello, but you can't look down on and respect someone at the same time.

Going back to the article, I think we've all known people who'd rather live minimally than take from others. It used to be a bit shameful to have to accept hand-outs, which is why Judaism has so many directions on how to do it without embarrassing the recipient. Yet when I asked a friend how kollel families in the US manage, she answered, "the government helps". I was horrified after I realized that it meant they're on welfare. My friend, who grew up in that society, saw nothing wrong with it. Who is saying that this is really okay?

When I was growing up in secular society, welfare was shameful, although of course it's a positive thing for those who really need it and use it properly. By the way, some of these yeshivish welfare recipients are the same ones having lavish brissim, etc. out of pressure to keep up, not because they actually want to be lavish. But they still do it, and live on welfare at the same time.

I digressed a bit, but I believe it's all tied up with R. Rosenblum's article. The situation he describes didn't just "happen", it was created. People we trust twist around halachah, and then it warps the nature of things and creates great problems so much that it takes a revolution to get things back to where they should have been in the first place.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


7. why are you shocked?     12/30/07 - 10:09 AM
Anonymous

Yet when I asked a friend how kollel families in the US manage, she answered, "the government helps". I was horrified after I realized that it meant they're on welfare.

Why is this worse than the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, before (and after) the establishment of the State being supported by the Jews of Europe who were thrilled at the opportunity of supporting those learning in Eretz Yisrael?

Why not view it as a tremendous bracha, mamosh Moshiach Tzeiten, that a non-Jewish government, in the US, enables people to learn Torah by providing financial assistance?

Jews who studied Torah fulltime were usually supported by others, throughout the ages. Why the shocked reaction yardena?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


8. Yashrus     12/30/07 - 3:41 PM
tb

Anonymous, the difference between the Jews of Europe supporting Torah and the secular United States government supporting families who have people in Kollel, is that the when the U.S. government is paying for this, those who pay taxes do not know where the money is going. They aren't being asked to support people who learn Torah. The money is being taken from them without their agreement. The homes that are recipients of this financial help, have able-bodied men in them who could work and support their family. The welfare system was not set up for the purposes of supporting families who can support themselves. And, even though Torah learning is a wonderful thing to do, I think accepting money when there is deception involved is Neged Halacha. Also, many people work and still claim poverty because they get paid off the books. This is also deception and Neged Halacha. Learning Gemara is one part of our Avodas Hashem. Yashrus and Chut Hachesed is our trademark as a nation.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


9. To Anonymous #7     12/31/07 - 5:50 AM
Yardena - EY

I agree with you that the expanse of Torah-leaning in America is an incredible bracha, and what's more, unparalled in recent Jewish history. At the same time, I feel the tb's words describe my view exactly. I can only add three things to her articulate reply:

1) Even if you still feel avreichim are justified to receive welfare, the money is often being used to support luxuries, both with regard to simchas, clothes, etc. in addition to normal needs. Let's remember the heavy pressure in some communities to be exactly like "everyone else". Even an idealistic, non-materialistic person can give in to this pressure.

2) I question whether supporting a Torah learner has indeed been the norm throughout the ages. My impression was that many of them were employed, medicine and winemaking seem to have been popular choices. Others served as the rabbi, teacher, storekeeper, government, etc. True, their jobs weren't necessarily 9-5. They worked enough for the most basic necessities and spent the rest of their time in learning.

3) My impression is also that, traditionally, bnei Torah and their wives did their best to make do with little. Even those who married into wealthy families still tried to live modestly. Which brings us back to the subject of the article.

Lastly, if you reply to this, could I respectfully request that you (or any other "anonymous", btw) use some kind of name or initial? I'm not trying to be pushy, it's just that it becomes confusing when 4 different "anonymouses" comment. Thank you very much.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


10.     12/31/07 - 3:33 PM
Anonymous

when the U.S. government is paying for this, those who pay taxes do not know where the money is going. They aren't being asked to support people who learn Torah. The money is being taken from them without their agreement.

The US government runs by our elected representatives who have decided to allocate the money in this way. You don't like the law, you can lobby to change it. The government is well aware that not all the people on welfare are invalids and yet they choose to give the money anyway, under specific guidelines. Or if it's not welfare, but more likely food stamps and the like, that means the people are earning some income but not enough for their household. US law doesn't say: well, stop bringing home such a low income (like a kollel check) and get a better job. That's just not how it works. To call it deception is, well, rather ugly, I think. Rebbetzin tb paskens that it's a neged halacha when numerous rabbis think otherwise.

It has been noted before that if a family consists of over 5 children, which is common in the yeshiva/chasidish world, then even an income of $150,000 won't make it easy to pay all the tuitions etc. and how many professions, even those learned in college, provide an outcome that large? So what is being recommended then? Birth control?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


11. I benefited from Welfare     1/1/08 - 7:44 AM
tb

Thanks for the promotion, anonymous. I've written here before that when I was a child, my mother had to collect welfare in order to stay home with me for my first three years of life. She couldn't make ends meet and did not want to leave me to go to work. I am actually not the person who regularly rambles on about the "people who kvetch the bank" or whatever they are called. I never usually discuss welfare because I have a personal connection with it. But you made a comparison that doesn't stick. I'm sorry. And, I think, if I am not mistaken, the Rabanim want young men to learn Torah for as long as possible. I don't think if a Shaalah was directly asked where lying to the government was necessary in order to learn Torah, that the Rav would paskin that it's okay to lie. Am I naive? I just thought it was a don't ask, don't tell mentality and I was voicing my opinion that in cases where lying and deception is involved, that this is Neged Halacha. I don't consider this to be an easy topic. Many people are angry at the Kollel families for taking Wic. I differentiate between Wic and Welfare because--it hits home for me, all of it. But, I will tell you that recently, I was sitting on my couch with my first cousin who I love dearly and we were talking about the fact that my husband and I are struggling so much to pay the bills and she is B"H getting by on her husband's Rebbe salary, her teacher's salary and with 8 kids K"AH. It was she who said, "You know what? You don't get wic or section 8 or any other assistance like we do." And it dawned on her that every single dollar that comes into our home is on the books. We can't take money from the government. I'm just saying...


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


12. large families and welfare     1/1/08 - 7:56 AM
tb

Anon, regarding your last comment which I know was some kind of bait that I was supposed to take, I want to tell you about my hero. My hero is my wonderful cousin who has 10 children, K"AH, that she took care of herself without babysitters, etc. Her husband toiled at a simple job (no colleged education) to support them. He always worked on the books. He is a heimishe, nice, frum, ehrliche man. After all those children were in school, she went back to school to earn a degree so she could get a nicely paying job to help pay the high school tuitions and all the other costs. When these children were growing up, the family took WIC and whatever government money they qualified for and Kol HaKovod to that. It was all on the up and up. Straight. Straight. Straight. Hashem should repay them with much Nachas for the hard work they put into raising their family and for their Yashrus.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


13.     1/1/08 - 11:31 AM
Anonymous

tb and Anon :

I think you're talking about two different things. Comparing apples to oranges, which is why it doesn't stick.

Anon is saying it is no shame to accept government assistance if the law allows it- as anon stated,

"The government is well aware that not all the people on welfare are invalids and yet they choose to give the money anyway, under specific guidelines. Or if it's not welfare, but more likely food stamps and the like, that means the people are earning some income but not enough for their household. US law doesn't say: well, stop bringing home such a low income (like a kollel check) and get a better job. That's just not how it works. To call it deception is, well, rather ugly, I think."

Just like your own mother stayed home for three years and accepted welfare for the sake of a higher goal- raising her own child, others may accept help for the sake of another higher goal- learning in Kollel. No contradiction there, and you of all people should understand this.

You answered anon as follows:

" don't think if a Shaalah was directly asked where lying to the government was necessary in order to learn Torah, that the Rav would paskin that it's okay to lie. Am I naive? I just thought it was a don't ask, don't tell mentality and I was voicing my opinion that in cases where lying and deception is involved, that this is Neged Halacha."

I read and reread, and don't see anywhere that anon implied in the slightest it is OK to lie. That is pretty basic. And for those who want to jump on this thread and talk some "other" people you know, this isn't the topic, it's about whether it's OK or not for people to legitimately accept government assistance, in accordance with US rules and regulations. The govt. didn't say tb's mother needs to go to work (after all, our govt. loves working moms, and believes in "empowerment", but the govt didnt' say tb's mom can't have welfare because of a personal choice) and the govt also says a Rebbe who makes 25,000 (coming from fact, not conjecture) and has eight or so children needs to quit and find an accounting job, or be penalized for having so much children. As much as US has it's flaws, it does recognize individual choice, and does not discriminate regarding its assistance program because of these choices. It doesn't even discriminate if the husband learns in Kollel and the wife works as a secretary, making 15,000 a year for a part time job so she can be home for her children in the afternoon. Not everyone lies, despite the vicious mentality of some to find fault everywhere they look. So, the response of tb did not match what it was responding to. Anon spoke about govt assistance, tb spoke about deception to obtain such. Tangentially related, but not the subject of the conversation, which is based on people who are straight with their finances.

"Many people are angry at the Kollel families for taking Wic."

Whyever so? WIC has quite lenient financial guidelines, and many, many working people are eligible for this, and many do take the assistance. Are Kollel people somewhat "less", that people are "angry" at them for taking something? Very confused here.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


14.     1/1/08 - 12:59 PM
yoni

anon, maybe I'm wrong, but the impression I got was that either tb's father was working and simply couldn't make enough (or otherwise irrelivant/disabled) or he was entirely absent, and therefore also irrelivant.

big difference between that and a kollel guy violating halacha (and in principle secular law) by refusing to work as he should.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


15. yoni     1/1/08 - 1:33 PM
Anonymous

"anon, maybe I'm wrong, but the impression I got was that either tb's father was working and simply couldn't make enough (or otherwise irrelivant/disabled) or he was entirely absent, and therefore also irrelivant. big difference between that and a kollel guy violating halacha (and in principle secular law) by refusing to work as he should."

Let's do last first: Violating secular law by "refusing" to work? Really?! I've got a number of friends and a relative who are experienced lawyers- I think they might tell me very different!!! In America, we don't violate a law "in principle"- we either violate a law or we don't. That is what we have courts of law for. And there is NO SECULAR LAW that insists that all adults work- not for slackers, not for lazy bums who drink beer on doorsteps, not for generations raised on welfare, not for mothers who choose the noble goal of raising their children at home, and not for men who choose the noble goal of beginning their bayis neeman biyisrael with some undistracted learning. Not for two parents, not for only one. If tb's father was working, why should that, in your fabricated law, be discriminatory in gender? That's sexist! I say this is liberated America- the females should be able to "get out" and work!/sarcasm.

And how about if tb's father was absent (sorry tb, I really didn't want to make this personal- yoni is presuming a personal story, and I am going along with it for the sake of his "argument", but it's better I put someone else's name there- why should we think it's OK to make up stories about someone else's life?!). If let's call this person AB, if ab's father was absent, how does that "absolve" the individual from going to work, according to your interesting secular "law"? That's why we have childcare, and that's why childcare is not taxed in the same manner as regular income not earmarked for childcare. The US govt supports, (at least conceptually, not so great on a practical level) single working moms. Oh, does this special secular law have a clause that mothers of small children are exempt? Whew, I'm off the hook, good to know. Come on, Yoni, if you want to make an argument, you don't need to fabricate fun stories to do so.

Let's go the first "law", that of halachah. According to yoni, it is against halachah for a man to learn in Kollel. I'm not sure which assertion is more wild. If you are referring to the husband's obligations toward his wife regarding parnassah as written in the Kesubah, a wife has the right to be mochel on this and encourage her husband to learn instead, if she is willing and able to work herself. Or are you taking away women's rights? Are you saying we are all cattle, and have no right to state our preferences? There is NO halacha, anywhere, that states it is forbidden for a male to learn instead of work in a situation wherein the wife prefers this. If you're talking about a dysfunctional home in which the wife asks the husband to work and he says, "No, abolutely not! You keep on working no matter how hard it is, while I'll continue to do my thing", you are talking about a lot bigger problems than learning versus working! You're talking major dysfunction, that manifests in every other part of their relationship as well.

So let's stick with honesty. Yoni, you don't like the idea of Kollel. You feel strongly that Kollel isn't the right way for a Jewish family. OK, that is fine. You are permitted to have your opinion. There are countless fabulous families with husbands who did not learn in Kollel, are Kovea Itim, and have lovely, Torahdike children. Each family needs to make their own decision. Some communities don't encourage Kollel, and that is fine. They make great families. Kollel doesn't have to be for everyone. No one is forcing you, yoni, to be part of a specific system of Kollel after marriage.

But please, don't make up secular law and halachos to buttress your argument. It looks silly.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


16.     1/1/08 - 1:51 PM
yoni

anon, I'd suggest you actualy read halacha before making such an ignorant argument. The perkei avos, the self same one that is used most erroniously to prove that a boy may not talk to a girl (try reading the mefarshim) states that torah without work will in the end cease and lead to sin. The suchlchan aruch (siman 156 I believe) states that it is assur not to teach ones child a trade, whether he be bright or slow. Furthermore, the laws of torah study clearly imply that for a bright man capable of learning the whole torah, he must attempt to do so before he gets married, unless his inclination overpowers him. The reason? because once he is married he "has a millstone around his neck" and therefore will have no peace of mind with which to study. This implies that halacha expects every man without question to go earn a living, whether scholarly or not. It then states, clearly, that if his inclination does over power him, then he should get married "because the first years the need to earn a living is not so pressing, and he can be married for a couple of years and still learn". Says nothing about permitting a man to go learn in kollel for 5 or 10 years.

So lets attack this from another halachic angle. The standard now (rachmana litzlan) is for all young men to go to kollel. They're stigmatized if they don't. Girls are stigmatized if they do not try and support a youngman in kollel. Halacha recognizes this kind of stigma as "cooercion" and therefore assurs it, and in such a case it is indeed probably that the woman would not be allowed her right to wave the kesuba, because the presumption is that she is under cooercion by her teachers, friends and society, because that is the (erronious and sinful) norm.

the quote from perkei avos alone should be proof enough for you of the evil that is universal kollel. In a case where the money by inlaws is given freely (ie there is no social cooercion whether by the boy or by general society that says that you're worthless if you don't go to kollel or support a kollelnik) there is blessing in this support of torah, but where it is not given freely, it is considered sinfull and steals ones olam haba away from one. So all that supposed olam haba he's lost just because the parents felt pressured to provide for a son-in-law. ALL of it. Check it out in shulchan aruch. Its called money unjustly gained and it sucks the spiritual life out a person, and is the same as stealing.

DO you know what halacha says about one who does not teach his child a trade or profession? it calls him a "robber" and says that you have taught him to steal, which is exactly what this is.

For the uniquely gifted, kollel is not such a problem, but that would be if there wasn't such a social atmosphere mandating it.

And this is only concerning those who are intelligent enough to learn, understand, and pasken from the gemorah, as our sages of old did.

The rest of them? torah tells them outright its better not to waste their time on such fantasies and instead study those halachot which are relavant to him, and thereby be able to keep the law, and thus he will work, earn money and see to his children's torah education and also be able to support those who are capable of studying "kol hatorah kula"


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


17. yoni     1/1/08 - 2:31 PM
Anonymous

"anon, I'd suggest you actualy read halacha before making such an ignorant argument. The perkei avos, the self same one that is used most erroniously to prove that a boy may not talk to a girl (try reading the mefarshim) states that torah without work will in the end cease and lead to sin."

Sigh... Yoni, we don't pasken from Pirkei Avos. I'm not sure your are qualified (but from your tone, I'm guessing you think you're very qualified to make halachik decisions) to determine what Pirkei Avos meant by "Torah without work"- obviously, there were always some special Torah scholars throughout history who were supported by others, and each of us have our own Rav who can guide us on the issue of whether we should be working instead of exclusively learning, and the time frames of such. You don't need to do that, because you already paskened from Pirkei Avos...

"The suchlchan aruch (siman 156 I believe) states that it is assur not to teach ones child a trade, whether he be bright or slow. Furthermore, the laws of torah study clearly imply that for a bright man capable of learning the whole torah, he must attempt to do so before he gets married, unless his inclination overpowers him. The reason? because once he is married he "has a millstone around his neck" and therefore will have no peace of mind with which to study. This implies that halacha expects every man without question to go earn a living, whether scholarly or not. It then states, clearly, that if his inclination does over power him, then he should get married "because the first years the need to earn a living is not so pressing, and he can be married for a couple of years and still learn". Says nothing about permitting a man to go learn in kollel for 5 or 10 years."

Also, yoni, it says "nothing about forbidding a man to learn in Kollel". Yoni, I feel bad, but no, you can't "infer" halacha from "implications". I'm sorry, but that's just not how it works. There is a halachik system, and if you find a Rav who paskens shailos to his community to explain it to you, you will discover that there is more to determining halacha than from "implications".

"So lets attack this from another halachic angle."

I personally don't want to attack anything. I respect those in Kollel, and I respect those who aren't. If you are on an attacking rampage, I prefer not to go along.

"The standard now (rachmana litzlan) is for all young men to go to kollel. They're stigmatized if they don't. Girls are stigmatized if they do not try and support a youngman in kollel. Halacha recognizes this kind of stigma as "cooercion" and therefore assurs it, and in such a case it is indeed probably that the woman would not be allowed her right to wave the kesuba, because the presumption is that she is under cooercion by her teachers, friends and society, because that is the (erronious and sinful) norm."

Once again (do I really need to...), halacha doesn't assur learning in Kollel. Not to address an old-time trend, and not to address a current trend. You don't have to like the trend (many don't), but no, halachah doesn't assur it. You've heard of Rabbonim that assur it? Do you have sources for this? (Besides sources for true halachah assuring learning, but I guess you can't find those, because they don't exist). Even in communities that frown upon Kollel learning (I've got relatives in a variety of community settings) Rabbonim don't "assur" Kollel learning if an alumna decides to take this route. They might call it flipping out, but they don't call it assur! Please, yoni, don't assume the mantle of Rabbinic decisor- it's not appropriate, and lends no credibility to your ideas. Say you don't like Kollel, explain the reasons why. Your voice is just as important as anyone else's. But it is wrong to make up halachah to justify your argument. Your argument can stand on its own merits, without that.

"the quote from perkei avos alone should be proof enough for you of the evil that is universal kollel."

Since you are no longer talking about an "Issur", but of a universal evil, that is already in the realm of hashkafah. Perhaps some agree with you that Kollel is evil, and some don't. I, for one, have no interest in engaging you in an argument that centers around personal choices of lifestyle, but I'm sure others will be interested in discussing this.

"DO you know what halacha says about one who does not teach his child a trade or profession? it calls him a "robber" and says that you have taught him to steal, which is exactly what this is."

The neglect of teaching a child a trade is not limited to the Kollel crowd- most families don't teach their child anything until college age these days (not exactly a child anymore)- this is a current state of affairs, unlike a few hundred years ago. Not correct, but not a specific reflection on a specific community. And in the model of college, many Kollel students begin working in Klei Kodesh, which they feel prepared for from their years of learning. Trade school can prepare someone for being a good electrician, Kollel can prepare someone for being a good Rebbe or similiar position. I don't think the Shulchan Orech was limiting this instruction to "professionals"- I know some great electricians, plumbers, paralegals, and office workers who wouldn't appreciate such snobbishness. It's nice that you have an opportunity for college, but that isn't the only way to "learn a trade". So if your assertion is that secular or frum non-Kollel families train their young sons in a trade, I have a bridge to sell too.

Yoni, for the final time: it's OK to not like or approve of Kollel- you are right, it's not for everyone. There is potential good and bad in every choice. You obviously have a strong (even passionate) dislike of Kollel, and I am sure you have your reasons for feeling this way. You are treading on dangerous, not to mention foolish, territory by attemting to pasken halachah, in contrary to each family's own reliable, chashuv Posek, that Kollel is "Assur". You can call it evil if you like, that is an opinion. But halachah cannot be an opinion, no matter how much you want it to be so.

I don't know where you are holding in college, but at some point, you are going to have to prepare a thesis. Are you familiar with how to research a thesis, how to provide acceptable rationale, how to provide every last reference to back up your findings and assertions? There are criteria and acceptable standards for a college level thesis, that one must conform with to get a minimum passing grade, no matter how passionate one feels about the topic.

Halachah too, lehavdil, has its standards and criteria for determination. At the very least, scrutinize your assertions under the standards of college level acceptability- it won't take you to the standards of halachah, but at least will give you insight into how to prepare an argument.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


18.     1/1/08 - 2:48 PM
yoni

anon, i wont go in to it, because I've said it too many times before, but if what you were saying were so, then there is no restriction what so ever on unmarried boys and girls spending hours and hours talking to each other, because we don't pasken based on the perkei avos quote, and there are no explicit mentions of the prohabition in the shulchan aruch, not in the book proper or the comentaries. the only question of it at all is a deeply implied statement that it is not necessarily a good thing.

likewise there would also be no issur of unmarried girls sleeping with a bunch of men, provided she goes to mikvah.

I wont go into it, but halacha does often work from inuendo in a sif, its reason, and many other things. We also find frequent piskei dinim from perkei avos. Infact, the halacha in perkei avos that I just quoted is indeed referenced explicity in the shulchan aruch, I simply don't have the text immediately infront of me to quote you the sif number. (I do have shulchan aruch harav onhand, and many of those halachic quotes come from it, but as a rule it is just quoting shulchan aruch, bais yosef, magen avraham, etc.)


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


19. yoni     1/1/08 - 3:35 PM
Anonymous

I didn't think I am having a halachik discussion on intergender conversation and mikvah, and I'm not about to start now. Contact your local Posek for any questions you have on this. I'm not implying anything, because this is not a halachik discussion, no matter how much you would like it to be so.

" I wont go into it, but halacha does often work from inuendo in a sif, its reason, and many other things."

Correct, you shouldn't go into it, because you are not a Posek, and have no background or training in deciding matters of halachah. Of course, if your own Posek has determined that Kollel is an issur, it is fine if you quote him.

"We also find frequent piskei dinim from perkei avos. Infact, the halacha in perkei avos that I just quoted is indeed referenced explicity in the shulchan aruch, I simply don't have the text immediately infront of me to quote you the sif number."

Yes, we DO find this. But we don't do this, yoni, not you or I. You or I don't make halachik decisions like this, we ask our Posek, look in Shulchan Aruch, or other decisive halachik works. Pirkei Avos is not a work intended for US to decide matters of halachah. Shulchan Aruch indeed references the Pirkei Avos, but Shulchan Aruch does not tell us that learning in Kollel is assur. That is what Yoni tells us, and yoni cannot pasken.

"(I do have shulchan aruch harav onhand, and many of those halachic quotes come from it, but as a rule it is just quoting shulchan aruch, bais yosef, magen avraham, etc.)"

Shulchan Aruch HaRav quotes from many sources, and it is for you to follow the halachah stated therein. Not the halachah based on yoni's theories garned from implications found in sources.

We're back to square one, but we actually never left it. We may not make up halachos. If we are engaging in a scholarly debate (which it appears you are trying to do), we back up our assertions with halachik sources. Or, we bring sources that IMPLY certain things, and debate them, but we don't PASKEN from them. And we don't pretend we have the authority to determine halachah based on our scholarly interests.

If you are a true talmid of the Rav, you will subject your opinions to scholarly, intellectual and well researched resources that preclude emotional hand waving. In REITS, you can learn "how to learn", and the fluff will simply wither away under rigorous and truly serious study. I hope you will have an opportunity for this in the future.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


20. single parent     1/1/08 - 3:49 PM
tb

Since it matters to some people, my parents got divorced when I was very young and my father couldn't hold a job so he did not pay any child support. My mother had to support me by herself. I know this whole welfare/wic issue will never be resolved here. There are always people who will fight to the death on one side of the argument. And those who will fight to the death on the other side. My husband, with whom I disagree on this, does not believe in welfare at all for anyone. Bottom line, though, if you are on the books, fine. If you are not able-bodied or if there is a single-parent home, fine. Otherwise, I have a problem with it. And, I don't even want to talk about it or make it my cause celebre. For me, the bigger issue is not the welfare, but the mothers who work to support and can not care hands on for their young children. Yada yada yada. Been there, said that.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


21. tb     1/1/08 - 4:06 PM
Anonymous

"Since it matters to some people, my parents got divorced when I was very young and my father couldn't hold a job so he did not pay any child support. My mother had to support me by herself.'

tb, it really doesn't! I feel bad you felt you should offer personal details, but most of us don't come from Dick and Jane homes, so join the club.

"I know this whole welfare/wic issue will never be resolved here. There are always people who will fight to the death on one side of the argument. And those who will fight to the death on the other side."

I agree. And it's not relevant, because it's a personal choice, and anyone who lives their lives by good convictions is to be respected, no matter which "side" they find themselves on.

"Bottom line, though, if you are on the books, fine. If you are not able-bodied or if there is a single-parent home, fine. Otherwise, I have a problem with it."

I agree with you all the way. If someone is deceitful, they own a big problem. For everyone else, we don't need to make judgments or evaluate our neighbors use of WIC (or participation in Kollel!). We can keep our eyes and noses where they belong, in our personal lives and personal choices, so long as they don't cause harm to others.

"For me, the bigger issue is not the welfare, but the mothers who work to support and can not care hands on for their young children. Yada yada yada. Been there, said that."

You may have "said that", but don't stop! We need people to advocate for care of children, and without condemning a society or group of people, we can advocate for more "home" care and attention. On this issue, there are many facets, and multiple levels of "care" and "non-care". A few hours a day is different from a full day. Working while children are in school is different from working while they are at home, being cared for by others. Etc etc. I am not qualified to really give opinions on this complex issue, but I know there are many variables. If your issue and experience is in the arena of childcare issues- Kol hakovod! Your children are fortunate, and so are those who view you as a role model for nurturing.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


22. to tb     1/1/08 - 4:35 PM
Yardena - EY

Dear tb,

I just read your comment now, and I would like to apologize if anything I said about welfare discomfited or insulted you. As I wrote "of course it's a positive thing for those who really need it and use it properly". Also, I hadn't read or hadn't remembered that comment in which you mentioned your own experience with welfare.

I was simply shocked because my friend seemed to describe a system in which couples marry with the intention on going on using taxpayer money FROM THE OUTSET (while still spending on mamesh luxuries!), and not as a last resort, either for prevention of or after falling on hard times. I don't think it should be such a casual assumption, as my friend implied it is. That was all I meant. And it sounds like your mother is a woman of high ideals who weighed her decision thoughtfully, and obviously used it as it was intended--a temporary solution until one is able to do without it.

I truly hope you took it in the spirit I meant.

By the way, I also diffrentiate between welfare and WIC.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


23.     1/1/08 - 4:39 PM
Anonymous

Yardena,

I agree with you. Using govt assistance to finance luxuries is NOT the intention of a Kollel lifestyle.

The spoilers are most prominent, but look around carefully, to find the many who do live with very little and who close their eyes to the "Jones's".


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


24. To tb     1/1/08 - 4:41 PM
Yardena - EY

I meant that I wrote the above after reading your comments #11 & #12. I only read your most recent comment after already posting the above.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


25. re: personal details and raising awareness     1/1/08 - 6:51 PM
tb

You know it's interesting. I learn the most on this site when people get personal. I read most of the comments and I do think there is value in relaying certain personal details. This is a unique opportunity for conversation that would not otherwise take place. I still don't understand why anonymous you persist in seeing yourself as a spectator whose soul responsibility is to get involved with your own family. I do think that individuals within the Klal can make a great difference in the Klal. I have seen it with my own eyes. I have personally made a difference in my community. My husband is doing something right now that is unbelievable for the Klal which I am so proud of and with him are my children. I can't specify the details here, but it is quite unusual. Most people would have passed the situation by and not acted. It wasn't an emergency, but it was an opportunity to do a Mitzvah. Why is raising awareness always deemed as pointing fingers? I think the more productive way to tackle the issues I have brought up is to meet with Gedolim and/or arrange Yimei Iyun about them. But, hey, I know the reality is that one woman pleading these cases to the Rabanim won't do much. And the Yimei Iyun are too much work for a mother who works part time so I comment here. And I hope to support a mother who is reading. This is a female thing. We do that for each other. And we do look to each other at times for guidance in ways that only other mothers will understand. So, please don't persist in calling it "pointing fingers" and leaving the impression that this is taking away somehow from my true calling. I really do know so many people who do not see themselves solely as spectators in the workings of the Klal and not all of them have kids with no shoes.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


26.     1/1/08 - 6:58 PM
Anonymous

tb, I didn't intend to project my view as spectator-like, and I'm sorry I came across that way. I just find that many finger-pointing people don't do what they are supposed to in their own corner, and use valuable time fingerpointing.

It's more of an attitude thing than the right/wrong of pointing out a problem, which in itself shouldn't pose a problem. If someone can do something for the Klal, we need more of these "someones". Whatever your husband is doing, may he have Koach and Siyata dishmaya to keep on doing for the Klal, and making a difference for our nation.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


27. Klal Yisroel     1/1/08 - 10:30 PM
Boruch

The article is written about the state of affairs in Eretz Yisroel. Regardless of how one feels about the establishment of the state, the issue of contributions to the economy on a good faith basis is one that affects all inhabitants of Israel.

If Haredim wish to be able to denounce criticisms of their community by Zionists as bad faith attacks, they need to know in advance that they are relying on themselves as the spiritual and economic support of their own communities. Similarly, anyone who takes state money in the U.S. and believes himself superior to those who work for a living is behaving evilly. He denies free will and supposes himself owed the money, which is no better than the worst secular ideologies.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


28. The Answers are so Obvious...     1/23/08 - 12:45 PM
Chaim

At the risk of stating the un-utterable, I propose that the economic situation described is the the result of:

a) A lack of education. b) A lack of family planning. c) A culture in which it has become unfashionable to work. d) Reliance on advice from people who have created the above.

This seems so obvious - PARTICULARLY THE MATTER OF FAMILY PLANNING - that the failure to realise, state and confront the reality can only be mass denial. {Psychologists call this groupthink, where members of a group choose to see the world thru very tinted glasses).


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


29. birth control     1/23/08 - 2:13 PM
Anonymous

anon #21I agree with you all the way

All the way? tb thinks it's deceptive for a man in kollel to benefit from govt. programs and I thought you disagreed with that view?

Chaim: By family planning do you mean the use of birth control to limit family size?

Do you know what Rabbi Moshe Feinstein's view is on that? Do you think he was in denial or based his psak on halachic reasons? Is denial what you think motivated the Lubavitcher Rebbe to urge people not to plan their families but to trust in G-d?

Which posek or poskim do you recommend that couples consult with on this topic? And if that posek is not that couple's rabbi, can they opt to follow this particular lenient psak of his?


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


30. "lenient" is completely inappropriate     1/23/08 - 2:40 PM
anonymous

I don't discuss this often with others, but of the few times that I have discussed this topic with other frum women it has been superclear that all consulted before using birth control and all were given the go ahead to do so. Many frum women limit their family size with Rabbinic approval. We do not openly share this and what is concerning is that many young women do not even think to ask their Rabbanim. If Rav Moshe was asked individual Shaalos with regard to this important concern which affects the women more than the men, he would answer much the same way that most Rabbanim do. Many of us have large families and still limit the size. Many have average size families and limit that size with Rabbinic approval. What is sad is--again--that there is a misconception about this and other issues related to Taharas Hamishpacha that it is inappopriate to ask and that the answer will likely be "no." This is wrong, wrong, wrong. VeChai Bahem is a concept in Torah that our Rabanim keep in mind when paskining. What a sad thing that the husbands too do not know to ask. And that commenters here on this site give a skewed and invalid impression of our Halachos and the individual Pesaks that our Rabbanim give out. The word lenient that was used above is misleading and dangerous.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


31. Anon # 30     1/23/08 - 2:59 PM
Anonymous

I think there is some clarity missing here. Not that issues of family size should be discussed on a public website, which accounts for the ambiguity here.

Anon 29 seems to be addressing Chaim here, who would like families to exercise birth control in consonance with family finances. This is the essence of "family planning"- if you can afford to put a child through college, have the child. If not, wait until the economic picture improves, and famiy plan accordingly, if you so choose to spend your money that way.

Individual Rabbinic approval to limit family size does not stem from the Western concept of "family planning", it is a clear addressal of the issues related to emotional and mental wellbeing, the need to be physically healthy and fulfill our tachlis as best as we can, which sometimes necessitates using means to prevent (temporarily, and in some cases, not so temporarily) having another child which might cause havoc with the important issues noted above. I'm sure Chaim and other likeminded individuals will be quick to point out how economic factors play into the above issues, and they are welcome to do so- I don't believe the attitude they espouse (not the economic facts, but the attitude) will cause even one G-d fearing ehrlich family to decide to hold off children because Chaim said. If he needs to vent here on his feelings toward our wonderful families blessed with helige neshamos, a website is a good place to do that. Join the club :).

So Anon #30, you make some very important points. At the same time, I think you and Anon #29 are on the same page ideologically, and I'm sure Anon #29 agrees with you on the need for individual Psak as appropriate.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


32. Family Planning     1/24/08 - 6:42 AM
Chaim

In answer to those who seem to have difficulty in understanding what I thought was a clear point - yes, I mean birth control.

I do not know what R Moshe said, but I know many permit it. I also know that many understand that there is an obligation to have a boy and a girl (or two of each according to the Rambam). I and many I have spoke to do not accept that it is necessary to ask anybody's "permission" to limit family size beyond that.

As for Lubavitch, I believe that the Rebbe's policy not to allow family planning was at least partly based on his wish to increase the number of his supporters. Frankly, it doesn't concern me one iota what he thought or why. I am aware of countless cases of BTs who blindly followed his advice and were left in a difficult if not impossible situation as a result.

As for who I propose one consults, I would answer that if one feels it necessary to take rabbinic advice then one should seek out the most lenient opinion. This will generally mean looking to known lenient Charedi rabbonim, or better still Modern Orthodox inclines ones.

Finally, and with a cynical smile, I address the issue of whether it is correct to follow a lenient ruling if it emanates from a rabbi who the asker does not usually follow. I am going to be honest and say that I feel that the very question itself reveals a level of naivite usually identified with infants. Howver, to be completely consistent I would just suggest that the couple change rabbis to the most lenient they can find on all issues.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


33. okay     1/24/08 - 9:55 AM
M

Glad you made your cynical, obnoxious view perfectly clear so we know precisely what your views are, Chaim.

Admin - I find the previous comment by Chaim offensive and inappropriate for your blog.


Report this Post

Thank you.
Your report has been submitted.
You may not see immediate results on your browser, but rest assured, the offensive or inappropriate comment will be dealt with automatically.
You can only report a comment once.


34. Honest dealings and poverty     7/16/08 - 1:41 PM
AK-ey

Hi,

I would like to refer you to the blog article below http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/07/10/r-michoel-ber-weissmandl-on-honesty-and-the-holocaust/

Poverty or having a heavy burden to support others compromises one's ability to be honest in one's dealings. Encouraging everyone to follow the route into full time Kiollel learning in the name of spirituality ignores the effects of poverty on the bein adam le'chavero , stress and all that goes with it , and as Rav Weissmandl says lack of honesty.

  Rate & Write a Comment!
Dear Readers:

Please visit our Parenting Resource listing to learn about agencies and services that you can make use of. If you know of an agency that can be of assistance to others, kindly drop an email to our site administrator at admin@RabbiHorowitz.com and pass along the information to him.

I ask that you please consider supporting the work we are doing to improve the lives of our children. Click on these links to learn more about our teen and parent mentoring program that serves hundreds of teens and their families, or our KESHER program, now in 20 schools in 4 states. Your financial support can allow us to expand these services and help more children.

If you believe in the governing principles of this website – to help effect positive change through the candid discussions of the real issues we collectively face, please consider becoming a daily, weekly or monthly sponsor of this website and help defray the costs of it’s maintenance.



Working with Families and Educators on Behalf of our Children

This site is managed by The Center for Jewish Family Life, Inc., 56 Briarcliff Drive, Monsey, NY 10952
Project Y.E.S. was founded by Agudath Israel of America
Project Y.E.S. 161 Kings Highway, Brooklyn, NY 11223 - 718-256-5360, fax: 718-256-5364 projectyes@pyes.org


Advertisements