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I had a personal experience where my son related that a yeshiva support staff member showed inappropriate pictures and played a "tackle" game with him and other students. When we tried to bring the subject up to the administration, their wall of defense was solid, and in fact the situation was turned around to make my son feel as though he was fabricating a story and should be ashamed for possibly causing someone to lose their job!!!. I will not go into all of the details of how the situation escalated, but after a few days of this my son expressed regret that he had ever told anyone about the staff member's actions. I have heard interviews with victims of abuse in the Jewish community who have expressed similar reactions by their yeshivas/community leaders. So, thank you, Rabbi Horowitz, for bringing the issue to light, but will you show the courage and conviction you speak of, in not throwing the entire achrayus on the parents, but acknowlege and advise how to handle the "partnership" between home and yeshiva in this delicate situation?

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this is not a school issue (only). and i most certanly am not suggesting that schools don't need to do everything possible to prevent abuse.

but as i note in next week's column, most abuse is not school-related. so my advice is more global in nature.

keep in mind, as well, that this series in mishpacha is a parenting column; so the thrust of my thoughts are directed to parents.

My arrangement with mishpacha is not to post the columns before they run. but here are the first few lines of next week's column:

Safe and Secure

Protecting Our Children – Part Two

Sad as it may sound, the painful reality is that you cannot provide your children foolproof protection from what are, in my opinion, the greatest physical and spiritual dangers that they might face during their formative years; abuse and molestation. Why? Because it is simply impossible to follow them wherever they go, all the more so as they pass through their pre-teen and teenage years. Furthermore, it is impractical and harmful to their sense of security to raise them to be frightened or suspicious of every adult that they meet. Finally, it is important to understand that although most of the high-profile abuse cases are school based, they are only a tiny percentage of the instances of molestation. Abusers are far more likely to be extended or close family members, older kids in the neighborhood, family friends, neighbors and peers.

With that in mind, I suggest that you view things from a broader perspective and think of protecting your children from abuse/molestation in the following four domains:

1) Training your children about healthy and appropriate norms for behavior between adults and children; 2) Equipping your children with the knowledge of what abusive behaviors are; 3) Empowering your children with the self-confidence to assert themselves when their personal space is violated; and 4) Supporting your children if and when they report to you that they are feeling that things are out of order.

Yakov

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I am very well aware of what a raw and painful issue this is; but I ask that all those who post comments keep the following rules:

1) No personal attacks, and no names mentioned in the posts 2) Same applies to mosdos haTorah -- No names of schools mentioned in the posts

Please keep the comments constructive in nature -- discussing what we can do as individuals and community members to help the victims and prevent future abuse from happening.

I never had to close the 'comment' section of this website, and I would like to continue that policy. But I will disable the comment feature for this essay if things get out of hand.

Please let's maintain the respectful tone of the comments.

Thank you

Yakov

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I was at a Shabbaton recently when a well known Boro Park Pediatrcian touched upon this subject and she said that she has a discussion with her patients that their bodies are holy and private. And if "ANYONE" at all disturbs their privacy, steps into their daled amos, suggests anything non-tzniusdik, unnatural, uncomfortable, nothing that you could not do in public, etc....tell them you will call your MOM immediately and your doctor and follow up with a phone call." Well it happened that summer for that child in camp. He wasn't sure what was going on at the time, but he knew to run away and call his Mom right away who was smart enough to believe him. She went down to the camp and quietly confronted the perpetrator.

This is an issue that pediatricians can really help with. If it is a female or a male doctor, whether it is a female or male patient. A pediatrician can ask a parent to step out of the room and ask a nurse to enter. This can be an item on their checklist that they "should do" when a child reaches a certain age, and maybe revisit or expand upon when a child is older. Asking the parent to leave helps the child relax and a doctor can explain that even if a parent or family member gets too close or suggests something inappropriate they can call the doctor. This builds trust and a bond with the physician and staff. They are the medical community and they should know; they are also there to help them and keep them from harm. That makes sense. But as I mentioned, a doctor should never be alone with a young patient. Because even doctors can not be removed from temptation or accusation.

The doctor should of course let the parents know that they had the "abuse and molestation" talk with the child and gave the child instructions what to do if it happens. Instructions must include:

1.No Matter what they say, and they will always say "Don't tell anyone or else....." Don't listen, you must immediately contact me, I will know what to do.

2. If anyone insists on being alone with you, don't go make sure you are within view of others.

3. If it is someone you know, a family member, or someone that is known to the family, when in doubt, scream and bring attention to yourself. You can always say you had a great pain in your belly. (It is unlikely that someone the child is familiar with will do bodily injury because they will be afraid to face the cocnsequences for that as well.

There will of course be those who disagree with me, but Rabbi Horowitz I really feel that a child's pediatrician has tremendous expedrience with children, family members, and unfortunately those who find themselves in this predicament. Parents may not be able to handle this assignment. If it was on a patient's chart that they must have this discussion with the child, they can do it as a matter of routine and then check it off with initials and a date knowing that this child was informed.

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Why the rerun?

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I can list countless cases that I have heard of that the parents/family of the victim were scared to get up and complain.

The time has come that these animals that ruin childrens/womans lives should be put away, for good. The only way to ensure that is to report them to the police. Sending away a peodophile to another country or state does'nt solve the problem. The perpetrator will do the same again in the new place.

How many times have we heard of people running away from the US to Israel or vice versa?

The time has come to wake up!! Speak to your children, tell them that nobody has any right to touch them, tell them not to be so trusting.

I have personally had many talks with my son (8) and once in a while remind him to the point that he says: "I know, why are you telling me again?".

A couple of good pointers for your kids:

* If someone wants to show you something and tells you to go with, tell them that you have to ask your mother/father for permission first - pedophiles usually prey on naive, innocent children, if your child shows knowledge, in alot of cases it could discourage them.

* Good secret/bad secret - if someone tries to touch you or wants to tell you a secret just between you too, there is no such thing as a secret from Mummy/Tatty - that is a bad secret.

* Talk to your child regularly about their feeling, track their behavioural patterns and if there is a deviation seek advice.

* Do not let your child go unsupervised to a public restroom - including those in a shul and/or Simcha.

* If your child goes to the Mikva make sure he is not left unsupervised for even a second - Mikva's rate NO:1 place for sexual abuse.

Most important of all - Daven, daven with all your heart to Hashem that he should protect your children.

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2nd of all, Al thi chassid harbei. You my friend have brouight up precisely the problem that R' Horowitz is trying to address (not that you are C'V a molester) that people with your attitude would hesitate to report an instance like this, you would be afraid it was 'lashon hara' you would shame the victim and protect the perpetrator - all in the name of some daas torah.

Fortunately, the times are changing, finally the yeshivish oilam is tackling this subject head on(not evading it) and R' Horowitz is leading the way. Yasher Koach!

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1) How do we respond to such an argument? 2) What is the difference between what the New Yorker says and your argument about the need to bring down barriers? Where does one draw the line? 3) Why is the New Yorkers argument any worse than the frum world's claim that secularism leads to child molesters?

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Why do married men have no outlet?

As for those who are not married, the problem is not having an outlet, the problem is overexposure, the exact opposite of their claim.

Why is the New Yorkers argument any worse than the frum world's claim that secularism leads to child molesters?

Who says it's worse? Both claims are silly. And where have you heard that "secularism" leads to molesting children?

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Rav Horowitz would have to confirm, but my guess is that the abusing parent ch"v is much more rare than the rest, and the doctor's private discussion alone is enough so the child recognizes there are other adults should their parent not be the right address for help. But never undermine the parental relationship - society does that enough already!

Furthermore, the doctor can't just give a "routine" speech - again there is a downside to making kids nervous about all contact. Children of all ages have a basic need for (appropriate) physical affection, which is best given by parents.

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Being married may make the problem worse. A person could be trapped in a loveless marriage. An even bigger problem would be the 5-10% of the population who have homosexual desires. Marriage is not going to provide an outlet for them. I am not suggesting that we change our ways but we may have to acknowledge that we pay a price for how we live.

"Why is the New Yorkers argument any worse than the frum world's claim that secularism leads to child molesters?

Who says it's worse? Both claims are silly. And where have you heard that "secularism" leads to molesting children?" Have you listened to Amnon Yitzchak or Uri Zohar? They are all about telling people to be frum and they will escape all the social evils of the secular world.

www.izgad.blogspot.com

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this is horribly wrong, but when we're told that doing something themselves is the worst sin in the torah...

statisticaly public school children play mabye one third what yeshiva kids seem to. (yeshiva stastics are based on estimates I've heard from people in many, many often very respectable dorm yeshivot.)

I'm not saying its ok, but there is a reason why chazzal told us it was assur to make a fence for a fence, and also assur to raise communal standards beyond the accepted halacha, or to g-d forbid coerce someone in to following any particular oppinion when they're already following a different one.

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So there's this statement: a religious education and lifestyle is more conducive to your child growing up respectful of others, moral, and focused. The automatic corrolary is NOT that the secular education and world lead to molestation.

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This is not to say that a majority of kids who are ‘off the derech’ were abused. 2- WHAT IS HIS DEFINITON OF ABUSE? 3- WAS THIS A SCIENTIFIC POLL? THESE ARE VERY VERY STRONG WORDS. DOES THIS MEAN THAT WHENEVER WE SEE "KIDS OFF THE DERECH" MOST LIKELY THEY WERE ABUSED?

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It only means that of those children who are abused, more will go off the derech/be at risk or have personality or marriage problems than the perportion will be for those who, for instance, are exposed to the internet, had a misserable shabbos at home, etc.

infact my suspicion is that the quantity of those who go off the derech from the internet is quite small, at least when the parents openly spoke to them about it and the need for maturity when using it.

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Kol mah de-sah-nee, le-chavercha loh-taavid. (not sure if that's the exact quote) - whatever is hateful to you, do not do to your friend/ neighbour/ fellowman

What a person does , he will have to answer his own accountability in the afterlife. However, if he has ruined someone else's life, and they subsequently have made (bad) choices because of their abuse, this person is culpable for that person's blunders, since he contributed to it.

this is where 'beshivili nivrah ha'Olam' attitude is distorted and perverted by those abusers.

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My main concern is the lack of action. Where I live the Vaad Harabonim mailed a statement to the entire Orthodox community addressing these types of issues. The letter was humble, admitting the Rabbonim have made mistakes and cases are best handled by professionals. It also spoke about setting up a local council to deal with allegations in an organized fashion.

This letter was sent April 2007. We have not heard anything from the Vaad since them. Meanwhile we have accused abusers moving into town and others being arrested.

One of these accused, who lost his job as a result, may be moving into my neighborhood. Yet I don't find out about it until I read it on some blog. That is ridiculous! What we need is a national, central database of confirmed, or strongly suspected abusers, and a notification system that concerned parents can tap into.

Bottom line: We need action, especially from the leadership. We need to keep pushing until there is action, before it gets worse.

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Abusers are nocturnal creatures, operating most effectively in the darkness of denial. What they fear most is the light of day and the righteous indignation of victims.

but then you say:

1) No personal attacks, and no names mentioned in the posts 2) Same applies to mosdos haTorah -- No names of schools mentioned in the posts

So how do you expect anything to change? And I still want to know why the rerun.

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Listing their names here serves no purpose. Here I think rabbi horowitz would much rather we discuss in theory how to deal with it, and leave the actual naming to forums that can deal with it. (like the police.)

The abusers need to go to jail. Being mesira on them is an indesputable mitzvah, because they are a danger to the klal, physicaly and spiritualy.

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I am an attorney who is attempting to persuade the New York State Legislature to enact child-protection laws for all of the 500,000 children who attend New York's nonpublic schools - that number includes 100,000 yeshiva children. In May 2007, the 1,000-member strong Rabbinical Council of America, endorsed the following Resolution that I proposed and drafted:

"Rabbinical Council of America Seeks to Combat Abuse of Children by Applying Public School Standards to Nonpublic Schools ______________________________________________________

May 1, 2007 -- Whereas, we, the Rabbinical Council of America, are deeply committed to the health, safety and security of all Jewish children attending yeshivas and Hebrew day schools, which includes their right to be free of any physical, emotional or sexual abuse or violence; and,

Whereas, we embrace the mitzvah of Lo ta'amod al dam ra'echa, (Do not stand upon the blood of your brother, Lev. 19:16), and we acknowledge the principle, BeHezaika DeRabim, Chaishinan Tfei (when there is an issue that affects the masses, we are vigilant), and how much more so does this principle apply when the health, safety and welfare of school children are affected; and,

Whereas, we acknowledge the devastating affect that even a single act of physical, emotional or sexual abuse can have upon a child, when inflicted by an adult authority figure, and such abuse can have long term serious physical and mental health consequences; and,

Whereas, we note that Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, of blessed memory, writes in "Halachic Man", that his grandfather, Rav Chaim Soloveitchik of Brisk, of blessed memory, was once asked what the function of a rabbi is, and he replied: “to address the grievances of those who are abandoned and alone, to protect the dignity of the poor, and to save the oppressed from the hands of his oppressor”; and,

Whereas, we acknowledge the legal principle of in loco parentis, which provides that during the school day, the yeshiva and day school stand in the shoes of the parents, and owe the children the high degree of care in health, safety and welfare that parents owe their children; and,

Whereas, we acknowledge the legal principle of parens patrae, whereby the government always has a legitimate interest in the health, safety, and welfare of its children-citizens, regardless of whether they attend public or nonpublic schools, and this interest is reflected in numerous statutes and judicial opinions; and,

Whereas, we take note of the U.S. Congress-mandated report prepared by the U.S. Department of Education, "Educator Sexual Misconduct" (June 2004), which documents the extent of the problem, and at section 12 strongly recommends for all schools employee background checks, registries of abusive school employees, standardized abuse prevention policies, and other prophylactic measures

Now, therefore, it is resolved that

We reiterate support for our 2005 convention resolution, Criminal Background Checks for Workers with Youth; and

We generally support the enactment of decent and humane laws that seek to secure and enhance the health, safety and welfare of nonpublic school children; and

We support the application to the nonpublic schools of the health and safety laws currently applicable to public schools, including

mandatory employee fingerprinting and halachically or legally appropriate background checks; mandatory written school plans and polices intended to safeguard the life, health, and safety of children, and to prevent physical, emotional and sexual abuse, including appropriate reporting guidelines; mandatory employee registration and disciplinary hearings; mandatory emergency health care, including nursing, modern first aid, and modern medical devices, including, defibrillators; and We call upon members of the RCA to encourage awareness of these issues with their constituencies so as to facilitate detection of abuse in our community."

Our child abuse problem can be solved with strong, tough laws. I respectfully urge all readers to get behind these ideas, in whatever way they can. I am currently doing much to advance these proposed laws in Albany, and I am even cautiously optimistic - I am making progress - but one citizen is not enough. As several here have noted, it is high time for action, so please, dear friends, get involved.

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Let's think about this for a second: We're talking here about problems in the frum community, and more specifically, the yeshivish community. This is a community that turns to it's Rabbonim and gedolim for guidance and assistance when in trouble. So I think it's safe to assume then that any person who might have suffered such an experience (or had their children suffer), would have gone to their Rav or their posek for help as to how to address it. Well, then if that's the case, why haven't we seen any reactions from the rabbonim? If they did have a position, then what was it? To keep it quiet?

It's inconceivable to me that our choshuve gedolim – people who we believe constantly have their finger on the pulse of the community - could have remained blissfully ignorant about these issues, and especially about certain individuals of whom accusation were made spanning decades! So if they knew, what was the daas torah reaction to this?

From my limited vantage point, I see no reaction whatsoever. I tremble to say this about out gedolim, but if that's the case, it seems irrefutable: daas torah was at best negligent (if they just ignored it, in the vain hope that it wouldn't happen again), and at worst complicit (if they actually advised or pressured people to keep quiet).

The importance of asking daas torah for advice can not be overstated, but people seem to be forgetting that it's the people who we trusted to lead us with their daas torah who didn’t do anything about this terrible issue for the past few decades. Does it really make sense to ask their advice now?

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This monstrosity finally has to be dealt with. On one hand we obsess with tznius issues on the other hand this topic is unknown or hushed. (Of course tznius things are b'farhesia while molesters act clandestinely. Still, if tznius related issues are really taken seriously, than sexual abuse has to be taken seriously too.)

On the other hand, if the problem is really so immense as now flaunted in the media, how come no one knows anythiing? On recent study says only 5% to 35% report abuse. Assuming that a large number beyond that is discovered by social activists, still how can they know the numbers are so high?

You also mention abusers repeat their offenses. Is it invariably true? If an adolescent is left alone with his niece and touches her, for example, must he be immediately exposed? Or is a severe scolding & talk enough?

I hope you have success in making the situation better. Too many people expext quick fixes and 'hot stuff' in the news.

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Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz is a talmid chochom with extensive knowledge of these problems. He is perfectly qualified to make his own decision regarding publishing a column on this topic. In fact, he is probably far more qualified than a Rosh Yeshivah who is an outstanding lamdan but is not so experienced with the prevalence of such problems.

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There is a misguided attitude common in the frum community that I see on this thread and needs to be corrected:

Child molestation is NOT about physical attraction.

Marriage, "breaking down barriers", "self" indulgence, etc. will never prevent child molestation because a pedophile's problem is not a sexual one, but a moral one.

I attended school with almost %100 non-Jews. Many, many girls were molested by step-fathers or raped by boyfriends. All the perpetrators looked normal and exprienced the "best" of America's unrepressed culture. They had guilt-free access to all outlets. Yet they still chose to assault women or children. Again, it's a moral issue more than a sexual one. If you could somehow deactivate their sexuality, they would still look to victimize people, but use a different venue.

Dealing with a proven child molester: Merely tossing him out of your community feels proactive, but is in reality a tremendous act of sinas chinam. It's basically saying something like, "The children of Monsey are precious, but it's okay if the Lakewood kinderlach are traumatized."

As far as I know, there is no cure for sexual assaulters. They should probably be killed and hope for better luck in the next gilgul, but without the Sanhedrin, you can't be sure of %100 proof, and could easily end up killing an innocent person. So, prison is really the only option.

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I recently read a fascinating Mishpacha article about the history of checking for shatnez in America. I was startled to read that mid-twentieth century, shatnez was an overlooked mitzvah. Few people knew about the mitzvah, or if they did, checked for it. One dedicated man brought this subject to people's attention. Today, who doesn't check for shatnez?

Perhaps the root of the problem is that few people realize that "Lo sa'amod al dam ra'echa" is one of Hashem's 613 Commandments - as much as kashrus, shatnez, and all the others. Do not stand on the blood of your brother - you are required to protect and save the life of a fellow Jew in distress. Please note that I quoted this mitzvah in the RCA Resolution above. Perhaps what we need is extreme communal education on this particular mitzvah.

I have twice contacted the appropriate Government agencies when I possessed credible evidence of molestation committed by certain individuals. I had no choice. My Creator ordered me to do so.

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i'd really be interested in reading in your next article, about how to zone in if above suspicions are correct and if one or two isolated incidents are cause for concern.

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So once again please keep in mind that this is not a "blog", and it is not a place where people can go and bash the author or subscriber because you have a need to "vent" against daas Torah or others. This is a forum for chizuk and exchange of positive ideas to promote healing and prevention of hurtful and unacceptable, problematic practices and processes that have been inaffective and damaging to the children of K'lal Yisroel.

Anyone who knows Rabbi Horowitz and knows how he runs his Yeshiva, understands his concept of chizuk and his attitude and willingness to change for the benefit of today's children. Anyone who comes to his website on a regular basis and reads his articles are coming with the same understanding that he is about change and he is advocating for our children. It is foolish to read anything different into his comments.

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1.Is there any real data about the extent of abuse/molestation in the orthodox community or is it all conjecture based on educated guesses about the numbers of off the derech children?

2.There seems to have been an explosion in the kids at risk phenomonon over the past 10 years. If a major causative factor is abuse/molestation, and abuse is as extensive as you make it sound, with the victims in turn becoming future potential perpetrators, why did we not have this phenomonon prior to the late ninties? It is difficult to believe that this would be solely due to sweeping it under the rug or the appearance of the internet. it would seem likely that there are additional issues that are also major contributory factors to the explosian of the kids at risk phenomonon. It would seem that perhaps some kind of sociological shift took place within the Orthodox community that has resulted in an increase in kids going of the derech.

3. If as the article states that most of the cases of abuse/molestation are not perpetrated by school personnel despite some high profile cases,then what are the specific parameters where it is occuring? In other words is it parent on child, sibling on sibling,step parent on step children, more distant relatives on children, male on male, male on female, female on male,Chasidish,Yeshivash,German,Hungarian,Polish frum from birth, baalei teshuva,rich,poor,older student on younger student etc.? Is it all pedophilia or are we dealing with issues of incest as well?

4.How would you address the theological ramifications of abuse in our community - Why did the torah and mitzvos of the perpetrator not prevent the crime. Does not Torah study help one battle the Yetzer Hara? And are we not better than the nations of the world?

5.Regarding Daas Torah, I think the question is not did you consult with it, but why (with the exception of one community and yourself) the deafening silence on this issue from those who are looked upon as Daas Torah?

6. Ought we perhaps to consider that the abuse issue which seems to have gotten out of control, may be an indicator that there are other serious issues in our community that are out of control? Perhaps our communal infrastruture is not sufficiently developed to meet some of these challenges.

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I notice many people express their thanks for articles like these. I wonder why. Does anybody think that articles will solve the problem? That children are reading these articles and will be sure to report molesters now? I highly doubt it. So seems to me that people just feel good about reading it as though awareness accomplishes anything. I've read many articles on this topic over the years, in different sorts of frum publications, it's nothing new in recent years. Have those who deal with the affected children noticed a drop in the number of cases? I will assume not, since the most recent articles don't say so. So I conclude that talking about it has not proven to help. If anyone thinks otherwise, please provide evidence, as I would be happy to hear that talk is effective.

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1)Such a question indicates some skepticism on your part... There is such data, and I am sure that in the course of R' Horowitz Avodas Hakodesh he neither relies on 'conjecture' or 'educated guesses' Such a question indicates a lack of understanding of the kind of work R' Horowitz does. 2)Dont kid yourself these things have been going on since the beginning of time. You only heard about it recently because our collective comunities were ill prepared to deal with these issues some have been shaming the victims and protecting the perpetrators - until recently when grass-roots people couldnt take it anymore and cried enough is enough! 3)All of the above 4) 'Torah' and 'Mitzvos' dont prevent crime. Such thinking is majorly flawed - and dangerous. Sick behaviors like these transcend Torah and Mitzvos and are a product of a serious mental disease - to be diagnosed and treated (if treatable) by licensed clinical professionals - not Rabbeim and Rosh Yeshivas. However, your question is a good one, if directed at the individuals responsible for covering up such abuse. 5)Why the silence you ask? EXCELLENT QUESTION!!! Scream that one louder and louder! Until the taboo of openly discussing these issues is broken, we still have such a long way to go...That means major Chareidi/Yeshivish publicatins must stop pretending that nothing is going on. It would be nice to see these publications deal with this matter with the same zeal as they announce every new Takana from the Gedolim. Once people see from all corners that such behavior and coverups are unacceptable, it will not be tolerated and the hamon am will be more vigilant in protecting their children. Information is power. 6) In the defense of our collective community, until recently we really did not know how to handle such issues. Now B'H they are at the forefront - Thank you R' Horowitz!

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From 2000 to current, our community has held a fair number of forums addressing child abuse. At several of these programs, OHEL CEO David Mandel, among others, has spoken, and he has addressed the extent of our problem. I have listened carefully to several audiotapes, and suffice it to state that Rabbi Horowitz is speaking accurately when describing the extent of child molestation in the orthodox Jewish community.

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Yes,I am skeptical. I do not mean to say that there is no abuse or that we have not failed in addressing the issue. Clearly there is a problem and for many years we failed to address it and perhaps are continuing to fall short. I am questioning the extent of abuse/molestation,it's contribution to the Kids at risk epidemic, and I would like more information on the parameters of who the perpetrators are and who the victims are. Simply stating in broad terms that a problem is very big,or that all the kids in a particular charedi shelter are abuse victims, or I received 50 - 100 phone calls concerning abuse/molestation, is too vague for me to draw accurate conclusions from. Is this primarily a clergy abuse problem, a school based problem, a familial/home based problem,a camp based problem. Would the legislation proposed by Elliot Passik really accomplish much in the way of eliminating the threat? Perhaps to some extent in the schools but what I am hearing from the article is that the problem is not so prevalent in the schools. Without defining the problem precisely, it is immensly more difficult to confront. Is there a Bogeyman lurking behind every door waiting to pop out and molest our kids. Do we need to live in a heightened state of fear and dare I say hysteria. Perhaps yes, but that is what I am trying to understand. I also suspect that a great number and perhaps a majority of the at risk kids, were not victims of abuse and R.Horowitz seems to say as such in his article. What then caused the explosion in the number of at risk kids and in the time frame that it appears to have occurred.? Who or what is responsible? I think that is a fair question.

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First regarding Daas Torah. This subject, as well as, all or most subjects Rabbi Horowitz writes about have been discussed in detail with Gedolei Yisroel. In regard to mesirah about physical and sexual abuse, no less than three, well-known, acclaimed gedolim were consulted over the last ten years. One of these great Torah giants spent 2 hours in our offices educating our staff.

Secondly, regarding responses or lack of response, from gedolim. Rest assured that the gedolim who lead our communities are completely aware of all the issues being discussed here. They certainly have responded to these matters in many ways. It is naiveté to believe that because the gedolim do not resort to forums such as this one or 'kol koreis', means that they are ignoring the problem. The reason that many people can't imagine what the gedolim are doing or what they have done, is because they do not regularly interact with gedolim. Gedolim choose their venues carefully, for action in all matters public.

Thirdly, regarding the prevalence of sexual abuse. Rabbi Horowitz wisely maintains a polite and measured stance when discussing sensitive matters. Although dealing with victims of physical and sexual abuse are far beyond the scope of our work at Project YES, we receive very many calls about these matters and refer them to capable professionals. The numbers and the details are staggering. Although no formal study has been done, there is a tremendous amount of empirical, anecdotal and logical data to support Rabbi Horowitz's article. Unfortunately, incestual behavior (from fondling to actual sexual relations) is a very real part of this problem.

Finally, regarding outlets for sexual expression. People who have studied abuse or have engaged in even a cursory talk with a mental health professional will learn that sexual abuse is not at all about desire, morals or release of sexual frustration. It is primarily about control and power. This may be surprising to many lay people, just as it was to me when I first became educated about this, (case in point, the youthful predator who violates an elderly woman). Rabbi Horowitz's articles should motivate us to becoming as educated as we need to be, depending on whether we are parents, grandparents, educators or klal workers.

As to whether "we need to live in a heightened state of fear and dare I say hysteria", I suggest that readers look forward to Rabbi Horowitz's continued discussion on this matter, as well as, other forums that deal with abuse.

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As I wrote in one of the first posts on this thread, and in next week's column, school-based abuse is a tiny percentage of the cased of abuse that come my way.

So, as I see things, the only way to make a real dent in things is to educate our parents and children.

Hence these columns.

Yakov

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So, could the people who suggested that Rabbi Horowitz needs some Daas Torah to approve publishing this excelent article, could they explain what part of the article really needs such an approval?

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I never learned the halachic punishment for molestation without penetration with a repeat offender as they almost all are (and I'm actually curious to know), so in that case, you're right--it was an emotional reaction on my part.

I don't take it back, however. If you've ever had to deal with victims who as a result of sexual abuse, have tremendous baggage, you might feel the same. For example, one girl I knew wouldn't take a shower without taking a steak knife with her to keep next to the bar of soap, another boy couldn't figure out whether he was homosexual or heterosexual, yet another boy became an extremely promiscuous homosexual, one girl became a lesbian, another became extremely promiscuous with boys, another tried to hang herself in the school bathroom, others commit slow suicide through eating disorders. There's drinking and drugs, too. These, of course, are only the surface symptoms. What they're not acting out is even worse.

For those interested, the above-mentioned examples are not from the frum community, but either non-Jews or secular Jews.

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What has taken so long? And why has there been an attempt at coverup for these kind of crimes? Why would anyone ever tolerate this behavior from anyone no matter how learned he might be or how close a friend? Thank G-d for people like you and Rabbi Horowitz taking action, and please continue, because this is stain on our people and a stain on Judaism. Any Jew made aware of the extent of this problem would be deeply shocked, offended, and resentful to those implicated in the crimes and the hushing of the issue (especially resentful toward any rabbis involved because we expect more from them). I can't even imagine how all those victims in Klal Yisrael must feel.

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I am cautiously optimistic about the future, however, and I hope to report good news in the near future.

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Someone who is classified as a rodef, and who is a danger to the klal (whether for hurting women (men to) or for assulting people or murder, according to the strict halacha his life is forfit and we may kill him where he stands, without bais din.

However, since we can't do that anymore we're commanded to be mesirah on him instead, whether the government in question is just or not.

whether the punishment is porportional or not, doesn't matter, at least as far as I recollect.

WOuld would be nice, strictly speaking, would be if we could ask the police to deal with this quietly, only looking in to those who are victims and only telling them and the family themselves so that all the has to happen is one day the man simply is forced to give a get to his wife and dissapears off to jail, never ot be heard from again. This was we can at least try and avoid the stigma that might hurt his own children and family.

Just let him dissapear.

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Yardena - and what would you like to be done to an 11 year old who has molested his younger cousin? have him killed? starved to death?

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Your response in regards to the reaction of the gedolim is exactly what people have been saying all these years: "Trust them. They're acting behind the scenes. They're handling it." Grandiose claims with absolutely nothing concrete. With all due respect, these are empty words until they are backed up with some substantial proof. I've heard all my life that I should trust the gedolim. And I've tried to. But why should anyone trust them that they are doing anything at all when it seems clear that the problem has been festering for years and only getting worse? Why should they be trusted to have been on top of the situation when we all know of people who remained in their positions with access to children and freedom to act as they please, despite there being years of suspicions about them? I ask this not to attack, but to sincerely inquire, on what should we be basing our trust? I would love to trust them, but tell me why they deserve that trust. Please, give me something solid, anything at all!, on which I can rest my hope that they have not been negligent in this matter.

> The gedolim do not resort to forums such as this one or 'kol koreis'...

I don't expect them to be using blogs, but if they had something to say they have ways of getting a message out. They have publications. They have spokespeople. They have events where they speak to the public. For crying out loud, they have a national organization with influence in Washington! The fact that they are virtually silent on this matter is, to me, an unequivocal indictment of their lack of action in this matter.

You say that three "well known gedolim" spoke to your staff? Well, why don't they speak to the public? Why don't you tell us who they are? Why can't they tell us what steps they've taken to redress these problems? Why can't they be asked what they advised victims to do when people confided in them?

Some might say that it's disrespectful to pose these question to gedolim. But in any other society, it's expected that leaders of a community or institution would be posed these questions when problems under their leadership are revealed. That's what responsibility is about. Asking for answers is not disrespectful. It's simple accountability. Don't we deserve to know the truth of how our leaders our leading us?

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How can this happen in the frum community? Doesn't the Torah keep people from doing such horrendous and disgusting things that are totally against Torah concepts and values? Please don't forget that Hashem gave us bechirah, we are only human beings with the choice Hashem gave us between good and evil. We have a yetzer tov and a yetzer harah. We have the same basic needs, desires, illness and afflictions as any other human beings that Hashem created. However as you questioned, he gave us the Torah. He gave us mitzvos and a set of rules to follow. But yet we are just human and we have to work hard to win against our yetzer hara. B"H in most cases the yetzer tov wins out because we are Jews and we have that neshoma and our Yetzer Tov works overtime. But there are those cases where the Yetzer Hora works overtime and sometimes the sickness and perversion takes over and the Yetzer Hora wins.

Just because we are frum Jews it does not make us immune from making bad choices. Just because we are frum Jews it doesn't make us immune from being greedy, stealing, killing or hurting other people. Yes, the Torah tells us not to, but we all know people who cheat, steal and unfortunately perpetrate other crimes. Human beings sometimes choose evil over good. Sometimes illness and sickness of the mind takes over and people do bad and horendous things to other people. So that is the answer why this can and does happen even in the frum community.

As to what causes the At-Risk phenomenon and if this is the basic cause...No it isn't it is just one of the issues and probably a small percentage of the whole picture.

This is how I explain it when asked: Sometimes it stems from the home - a dysfunctional family, and sometimes it stems from the school. Children have the two feet Hashem gave them. Each one is firmly planted; one in the foundation of the home and one in the foundation of the school. The two safe environments the child grows in. If there is a crack in either of these foundations the child's world begins to crumble. The growth, development and success of a child is an ongoing partnership between the parents, school and the child. If what the child is taught at home is not respected and reinforced in the school the child will be confused and frustrated. If what the child is taught in the school is not respected and reinforced in the home the same will happen. The child will begin to see a pattern of hypocricy and falsehood.

People have 5 basic needs, but the two most important for their success is 1)to love and be loved and 2)to accomplish (or be productive).

The ability to love and be loved (self-confidence) is usually accomplished in the home. If however the home is dysfunctional this very basic need will not be fullfiled.

The ability to accomplish (self-esteem) is usually satisfied in school. If however, there is a situation in school where the child is hurt in some way, humiliated, labeled, falls behind the basic need of accomplishing or being productive is not fullfilled.

This situation where a child has a lack of self-esteem or self-confidence is a leading risk factor for the At-Risk phenomenon.

Why the discussions all of a sudden? B"H we have the means these days of quick communication and interactive discussions. More people are finding the courage to come forward with their past history, especially due to the anonymity of the internet. As one person tells their story and is believed it gives the chizuk for another person to gain courage to come forward and unburden themselves whether the incident happened 5 years ago 10 years ago or even 30 years ago. It is a horrible feeling to keep a secret so painful because you are afraid that no one will believe you and you are made to feel ashamed as if you were the perpetrator instead of the victim.

So you asked why talk about it now, how does it help? It helps by giving chizuk to victims, so that they know that we believe them. That we will not doubt them, that they can come to a Rav, a doctor, a parent, a friend and their story will be checked out. No one will laugh at them and no one will blame them. And more importantly no one will tell them they should be ashamed of themselves for beshmutzing the ideas and concepts the world has about frum Jews. We musn't air our dirty linen in public, we must sweep it under the rug and not mevayesh the K'lal.

More importantly, if people who find that they have this illness or tendency know that they will be exposed and that their victims will be believed, they might just realize that they too can get help and won't be laughed at or shunned by their Rebbe, doctor or friend. If a person told their Rebbe that they had this sickness and he can guide him to a professional for treatment, both the victim and the offender can be saved from this horrendous crime before it happens.

About the Gedolei Hador - you can never lump all individuals together and judge them. Yes there are many Rabbonim who are responsible for sweeping things under the rug in some of these cases and they will have to face the consequences nuch 120 when they stand in Olam Haemes and give their din v'cheshbon. But there are others who do work behind the scenes for the benefit of the K'lal and on each case that comes their way, case by case, story by story. And no, they don't owe you, me, us or anyone, an interview, a story, an article or anything else. Every case they work on, every person that comes to them is "PRIVATE". Only the victim has the right to tell their story. Only the victim has the right to speak up and say how the Rav helped them.

Understand that it took many, many years for the secular world to come up with the appropriate legislation to handle this situation, how to protect both the victim and the accused. How to protect the right's of both. How to make sure the accused is guilty and not also a victim of someone's sickness. In some rare cases emotionally disturbed patients actually made acusations that were very real to them but were actually dreamt or imagined.

So our gedolim, Rabbonim, Bet Din or whatever you choose to refer to them has to work with professionals, therapists, attorneys and police in order to come up with a procedure plan. It is a very delicate situation and it has to be done with tact, with sensitivity and with compassion. We have to understand how to inform the general public of all ages. Don't forget we are dealing with Frum, pious, tznius Jews. We can't just blurt out information, it has to be done appropriately. Our children are not exposed as the secular world. We can't just start talking about this to all ages, any age. Each age group has to be educated according to their level of understanding. And whether the incidents are occurring in the home or in the school why do you need percentages? Why do you need statistics? Even if there were only 100 cases, or 50 cases or 10 cases. That would be 100, 50 or 10 too many!!!!!

Even here on this forum, where we are basically adults it is hard to follow the concepts we are talking about. Even here, many of you refuse to believe that parents can be the perpetrators. But incest does happen and that is sexual abuse and molestation. It is spoken about in the Torah. So we must keep opening up discussions about all these tabu subjects. We must do everything and anything in our power to keep our children safe and happy. We must do everything in our power to be the best role models we can be for our children to follow. And we must remember that Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh LaZeh. We are here for each other. We are responsible to each other and for each other. So whether it is physical abuse, sexual abuse, molestation, humiliation or any of the other topics Rabbi Horowitz is bringing to the forefront here, these behaviors are unacceptable and we as Frum Jews and decent human beings DO NOT ACCEPT UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!

Hatzlocha to All! Sherree Belsky Director Kids Count Foundation

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I am but a very small percentage of that under reporting statistic.

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So if you acknowledge that there are rabbonim who are responsible, don't you think we should find out who they are? Why would their getting din v'cheshbon in the oilam haemes preclude our knowing about them now? Don't you think these people should be exposed now and removed from any position of respect or influence? Don't you want the public to know not to trust these people? Asking for explanations is the only way to find out these important facts!

You yourself say "Knowledge is power." If you really believe that, don't you think we should try to find out the proper information?

> But there are others who do work behind the scenes for the benefit of the K'lal and on each case that comes their way, case by case, story by story. And no, they don't owe you, me, us or anyone, an interview, a story, an article or anything else.

Yes, they do, if they expect us to trust them! So many people I know started out trusting the gedolim, like we were raised to. But at this point, that trust is totally gone. There doesn't seem to be any basis on which to feel confident that they are doing anything about this problem! All we are told is "Trust us, we're handling it!" but no details at all! I would love to trust you, but the situation as it is now simply does not justify that trust! Exactly how are they handling it? How can we be expected to believe that they're doing anything when we never hear about a single sex abuse case being resolved?! When we see known abusers remain respected members of the community?

Believe me, I'd like to trust them, but trust needs to be earned. Doesn't it?

> Every case they work on, every person that comes to them is "PRIVATE". Only the victim has the right to tell their story. Only the victim has the right to speak up and say how the Rav helped them.

Privacy has nothing to do with this. No one is asking for identifying details of any individual victim. What the public does deserve to know is what do they feel people should do when encountering such behavior? What steps did they take when accusations were brought to their attention? We are raised on a constant diet of gadol stories; they are supposed to be our models for how to handle ourselves; whole seforim are devoted to analyzing their responses to difficult situations! To suddenly claim that it isn't appropriate to know how they handle this particular situation is entirely disingenuous.

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In fact, the boy I mentioned above who couldn't figure out his sexual orientation was at one time the 6-year-old victim of an eleven-year-old rapist.

It goes without saying that the death penalties refer to mature offenders. As for HALACHIC minors, I imagine that the din is quite different, as it usually is for halachic minors. I also imagine the potential for rehabilitation is much better than the potential of rehabilitating, for example, a 21-year-old offender. But I admit I don't know what the din is, and I don't know how to find it out.

As far as Dovid H.'s posts, I feel that I could've written them, too, so strongly do I identify with the same questions and issues he mentioned. Though Sherree explained the reasons why gedolim wouldn't make a public fuss about individual cases (respecting the victim's privacy), I'm still left with questioning why they don't make general declarations and guidelines?

For example, do you think that if a gadol hador would call up Mishpacha or Hamodia or Jewish Obserever, etc. and say something like, "Page 1, write the following declaration of the halachic obligation to give over a known sex offender to the authorities,write the following guidelines, and sign my name on it", do you think the editors would say no? Of course they would do exactly what the gadol said!

So why don't gedolim do that? After all, many prestigious rabbonim found the time, energy, and "courage" to censure Slifkin for what they themselves acknowledged was simply going according a minority opinion. Could they not find it within themselves to do that regarding unambiguous prohibitions clearly spelled out in the Torah that are supported by unanimous opinions of both the rishonim and achronim?

All the great leaders of the Jewish people traditionally concentrated on d'oraisa issues, and feared neither the non-Jewish authorities nor the reactions of their own frum communities. They did not depend on direction from the non-Jews, nor did they passively wait for baale batim to introduce issues and solutions to them. (I'm thinking of Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Meir Shapiro, the Chafetz Chaim, specifically.) They had tremendous insight AND foresight. No one needed to tell them what the problems were or what the solutions were because they cared enough about Klal Yisrael to see for themselves both the problems and their solutions.

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I do not have time on a 'short Friday' to properly respond to the 'gedolim' issue, which, as many have pointed out, keeps coming up.

But in the broadest sense; I think there is a misunderstanding of how the process of 'daas Torah' works.

Gedolim are not like CEO's who set policy for 'the company.' Things are far more fragmented ... and complicated than that.

More later, time permitting.

But in short, we have to stop blaming our gedolim for everything, and start taking responsibility for raising our children.

Yakov

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Well, how come when it comes to wigs, and Slifkin, and bugs in our vegetables, and filters on our faucets, and so many other minor issues (compared to the issue of sexual abuse) they seem to be fine with setting policy?

I find it disingenuous when a community that always claims to follow the advice of the gedolim in how they live and conduct themselves (at least in theory) suddenly proclaim, "the gedolim don’t actually have as much significance as people think."

Similarly, it’s totally inconsistent when people say that there is no way for rabbonim and the gedolim to get a message across. All the chareidi periodicals (JO, Mishpacha, Hamodia, Yated) all claim to only print articles that are approved by rabbonim, if not specifically composed by those leaders. In fact, this page at the Yated site (http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5765/mishpotim/oyated16.htm) clearly states that, "Yated's main mission is to present daas Torah. In this, we are the mouthpiece of the rabbonim. Our Vaada Ruchanit is not an advisory board, but really a board of directors. They direct what we put in and what we do not, and the entire organization is built to ensure this." How can you make such a claim one day, and then the next day hide behind, "But there’s nothing we can do..."?

Maybe it’s true that the gedolim can’t do much in this regard. But if that’s the case then they should tell the public to stop looking toward them for advice on how to deal with this situation. It’s one or the other. You can’t have it both ways. If the public looks to them for leadership, then they have to either deliver it, or admit that they are not capable of providing what the public needs and that they should look elsewhere for solutions.

And lastly, even if it is somehow true that they don’t set policy (which I personally don’t believe), what is absolutely irrefutable is that they do set the tone of how the community responds. If everyone reacts with keeping things quiet and avoiding the issue that’s because that’s the message they are picking up on from those on high.

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The way I see it, the "blaming" of gedolim / rabbonim is not because we are abrogating our family responsibilities. Rather it is the direct out-growth of the tremendous chilul Hashem perpetrated over decades, and in particular in the last few years.

There is one the betrayal of trust when a few "rabbis" are actually molesters. But these are few. The bigger issue is the way the whole thing has been handled by the American charedi leadership, both national and local. Perhaps corrective steps are being taken behind the scenes, but the lack of transparency together with past failures creates an environment of lack of trust in the leadership.

I see the long term repercussions of this "emunas chachamim" issue as larger than the actual molestation issue. It speaks to the broader topic you raised in other articles dealing with "adults at-risk".

Of course we need to take responsibility for our families. But at the same time, the lack of leadership public response is bothering a lot of people, myself included.

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Do you even know who the MO Gedolim are? Have you seen their proclamations regarding sexual abuse, and their protocols of guidance? Signed by them? If you have, I'd love to see them too.

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There are many individuals at work here to correct the wrongs of the past on a case by case situation. For the present and future, we are discussing what should be done. People such as Dov Hikind have made video tapes of what is going on in the frum olam and it has been played on national TV. So the information is being spread via different forms of media. Professionals including therapist, medical experts, educators, Rabbinical representation, attorneys, legislators, police experts, etc. are all working together to come up with means of prevention, education, information, procedure in the event of occurence and so on. No it has not all been worked out yet where it can be publicised and there are no handbooks or worksheets where that can be distributed.

You want to know what to do in the mean time, as well you should. Well, going to search out Daas Torah who made mistakes in the past and hanging them is not exactly going to keep our children safe. Educating chiidren what to do in case they get separated from proper supervision will. Staying home more with your children and not leaving their care to strangers will. Keeping your children in open areas in the home instead of allowing everyone to go off into their own bedrooms with company even in your own home will, even if it is family. Spending real family time with your children, and less time at work and with your own friends will. Knowing your children well and watching for changes in their behavior will give you a clue if something is going on. Explaining to your children that no one has the right to enter their "space, daled amos," or however you want to put it according to their level of understanding will. Realizing that you have to have the same chat with the boys as with the girls, will. Having a close enough relationship with your children so they can come to you and trust you with anything will. When a child knows that they can tell you anything and if anyone approaches them and says "Don't tell anyone" and they can say "if you come near me you better believe I will tell my parents and they will believe me too!", will. Understanding that a "pervert" comes in all shapes, sizes and colors and can be disguised in any normal uniform or costume. Even that of a parent, modern or chassidish, male or female will.

Teach your child to scream and run if anyone approaches them, teach your child to walk in groups even in your safe frum neighborhoods. Ask your pediatrician to talk to your children if you can't.

Basically stop looking for whom to blame. You are asking the wrong questions here. Stop asking "Why" already and ask "how do we prevent this in the future?" We can't change the past, we can only do things differently today and much better tomorrow.

For those who asked "Why would someone risk their family, their marriage, their future to bring it up today?" It is a foolish question. Do you honestly believe that you could go through that kind of trauma and horrendous situation and actually live an unaffected normal life? Do you actually believe that you can just put it behind you and forget it? Do you actually believe that it doesn't haunt you every day? That you don't relive it and remember it? It is called closure! It is a means of shedding the baggage and putting the responsibility for actions where it squarely belongs...on the perpetrator and not the victim who carried the burden for years and years until they finally opened up the prison of pain and allowed themselves this freedom.

If you really want to know what to do in case of an emergency, again be responsible and accountable. Each one of us should have our own Rav, Doctor and Attorney. Therefore you have your own support group. If you want to know what to do before such an incident arrises go speak to your support team and ask. If your attorney and doctor are frum, they will ask their own Rav and never give advice without having Daas Torah in mind. I am sure the first thing they would tell you is to bring the child to the doctor or hospital for evaluation while at the same time call your attorney and advise him what you suspect. Do not do anything without speaking to your support system. If your child comes to you chas v'shalom with a story, listen attentively and don't ask too many questions just let them speak and repeat what they said to make sure you understood them. Then walk into another room and call your support system for instructions. It is better for you to allow the experts to ask the questions and for them to hear the story first hand than for you to ask too many questions that might inadvertently misguide them or read too much into their story out of fear and panic.

So I would like to change the mode here a little and hear some more productive means of prevention and procedures on what to do in the future.

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When one sees an injustice happening, one is bound to fix it, whether or not you think that the gedolim should be. They cannot take care of everything.

(learned from parshas pinchas.)

(he also said that in a generation that is not deserving there will be no gedolim but I'll just leave that alone for now.)

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I couldn't tell anyone during the years that I was being abused because I denied what was going on as it was happening. I didn't have any words to explain it, even to myself so I blocked it out. It was basic survival instinct. My father was not the only one who molested me. I have other memories of being molested in my grandfather's yeshiva by my grandfather and by some of his students (My father was one of these students.) I remember my grandfather exposing himself to me and my sister once in a bathroom in the yeshiva. I remember exactly which bathroom it was, and the guilty look that my sister gave me when we came out. We knew it was a secret.

I remember being very depressed from the age of about 10. I had no sense of who I was. I often did not feel like I was real. My mother added to my invisibility by denying my basic feelings and needs. She often told me that I had no reason to feel angry or sad and that I should put a smile on my face. She told me that I didn't need glasses even though the eye doctor said that I did, and I knew that I couldn't see the board in school. When I complained she told me, “You see well enough.” I used books to escape from the pain and confusion.

Then, as a teenager, my younger cousins who were living with us, and who I helped care for, shared with me that their father was molesting them. (This uncle was also a former student at my grandfather's Yeshiva.) Although some of the things they were describing I knew never happened to me, It felt way too personal. The pain and shame of my three-year-old cousin as he haltingly described his fathers perverted actions to me, sounded too familiar. I started having flashbacks and panic attacks. The dissociation that had worked so well for so many years as a defense to allow me to grow up in the same house as my father, began to unravel. I couldn't ignore that part of my mind any more. The memories became very intrusive.

I stumbled through a painful adolescence. Trying to survive. Trying to pretend I was alright. Trying to be the good Bais Yaakov girl that my parents wanted me to be. Until it got to hard to pretend and I gave up. As an 18 year old, I was sent by my father to his friend, a frum psychologist for treatment after I ran away from home. She agreed to see me in spite of the clear conflict of interest. She told me that she doesn't usually see her friends kids but she was willing to make an exception for my father because she has so much respect for him! When I finally told her about my father due to her urging me to try to 'remember' if I was ever sexually abused ( Very questionable ethics!! ) she told me that she didn't want to know about it and terminated treatment very suddenly, leaving me devastated and confused. She broke confidentiality by speaking to my family's rav and at least one of my siblings telling them that she did not believe that my father abused me. It took me years to learn to trust another therapist, to trust my own memories, and to finally begin to heal from the molestation by my father. This women has heard personally from me that my father molested me and as respected psychologist in the community who would be heard if she chose to speak up, she continues to do nothing about my father who is currently the principal of an elementary school!

When I couldn't stand the pain any longer I went to my family and to rabbonim in the community, and even outside the community, for help. I needed to understand how this could have happened to me. Their response was simply, “it didn't happen.” They turned their backs and refused to believe me. I was completely alone with the trauma. I tried to commit suicide and was hospitalized. Thank God I survived. I got help from one family in the community who refused to abandon me despite intense pressure not to support me. I got most of my help outside of the community from many wonderful people who understand incest and the trauma it causes. I lived for a time in a home run by sisters from the Catholic church. They were very kind to me. I am lucky to be alive and living a normal life today. Other incest survivors are not so fortunate.

Yet, to this day scars from my experiences remain. I still have trouble trusting authority figures. Day to day care of my own children can trigger me to think of the abuse. Seeing how vulnerable children are is scary. Hearing noises of someone breathing in the bedroom with me at night can throw me into a flashback. There were years when I slept with a noise machine in the bedroom. Now I still need earplugs once in a while.

I left yidishkeit for a few years because of the Rabbi's and my family's response to my memories. I could not understand how the Torah could be better than anything else if it does not help people who are supposedly talmidai chachamim, be just a little bit more ethical, moral, and healthy, than other people. I was angry at God for allowing me to be molested by frum Jews in a yeshiva. Abuse and Torah are intertwined in my family. I felt like the Torah itself had molested me. I needed time and space to pull the Torah and my family apart..

About eight years ago my 11 siblings, many nieces, nephews, cousins, over twenty aunts and uncles cut me off and began to treat me as if I were dead. I have only one aunt who speaks to me... barely. She won't speak to me about my family. I found out third hand that my grandmother died months after it happened. I don't know which of my siblings are married and who has children. I am alone.

My terrible crime is that I spoke the truth about my memories of my father molesting me. My family's Rav told me that he advised my family that they would have to choose between their father and their sister. It was decided by my family based on the advice of this rabbi, my fathers psycologist friend, and others in the frum community, that I was not to be heard, believed, or helped but instead to be cast out as a korbon. Better the loss of one child then the whole family! Better the loss of one life than a terrible chillul hashem! The image of the community is more important than anything else! And what about a shidduch for the other children if I am allowed speak out?

The chillul hashem is that you choose to protect the image of your community and your rabbonim at the expense of innocent children! And the truth about shidduchim is that God is in charge of shidduchim, not people. Even with my shaky background and the rabbonim in the frum community telling people that I am crazy, I got an excellent shidduch! Thank God I have been married for over nine years to a supportive, wise, and gentle man.

A few months ago I called my mother. My mother is completely loyal to my father and she cannot allow herself to see what happened to me. I have grown to understand and accept this. I told my mother that I called to tell her that I love her. I told her that if she ever needs anything from me I would do my best to help her. I told her that I discovered that being a mother is a very special thing...not something that ever goes away. After so many years of silence, my mother was shocked to hear from me. She told me she loves me and thinks about me all the time. She did not hang up but kept the conversation short. I call her once in a while now to wish her a good shabbos. She sounds happy to hear from me but always ends the conversation quickly.

As a mother myself, I can not comprehend how she has given me up! I offered both of my parents the opportunity to meet their grandchildren. I was in town for Shabbos and gave them the address. They never showed up. I offered her more than one opportunity to visit me and the children. She said, “I will see you in Eret Yisroel when Moshiach comes.”

What keeps me positive and what has always kept me positive is in knowing that I have always sought the truth. I never wanted, and still don't want to believe, that my father molested me. For years I explored every other possibility that I could think of. The sad truth is that this did happen to me. I have dealt with it and continue to deal with it and thank G-d I am OK.

My view of myself and other people changed dramatically as I worked for years in therapy trying to comprehend what happened, and to heal and grow beyond. It may be hard for other people to understand, but in spite of the terror and trauma that my father put me through as a young child I don't see him as a monster. My father also did many normal things with me that other fathers do. He took me places, bought me toys, and played ball with me outside when I was a teen. He cared about me in his own limited way. My father is a person with an illness that he can not control. He is a person who has done much good for some in his community, and as hard as that may be to reconcile, that can't be ignored. But he is a person who should never be around children unsupervised. Anyone who puts my father in a position where he can be alone with a child is placing a stumbling block in front of the blind. Like putting a bottle of alcohol in front of an alcoholic.

When I first left my family, it seemed hopeless that anyone would listen to me. My extremely well connected and influential father was telling people that I was wrong. My father, because of his standing in the community, and also for the simple fact that he is my father, (and culturally the parent is always considered more believable then the child,) is considered credible while I am not.

I can understand why the leaders of the community are desperate to believe that my father is innocent. My father has helped many of the community leaders and Rabbonim, with their own children. In protecting my father they are protecting themselves.

The frum community is just beginning to wake up to the reality that perpetrators often hide behind respectable persona's and professions, and that child molesters like my father depend on their disbelief and silence to continue abusing. This is a very hard reality to come to terms with.

I am so sorry for the pain and suffering that my father's illness has caused my family...and the entire community. I know that unfortunately my situation is not unusual. My family and the entire family of klal yisrael need a huge tikun in this area. There are many, many survivors out there who are suffering because of the communities strong denial reflex, and lack of response to our pain.

Perpertrators like my father cannot take responsibility for their actions. They are sick. The community must take responsibility. It is essential to allow survivors to feel whatever they need to feel, and to prosecute sex offenders as they need to. As a community, however, I don't believe that in the long run it is helpful to excommunicate or demonize sex offenders. In my opinion, non violent child sex offenders should be allowed supervised visits into a shul, as long as none of their victims daven there. Non violent sex offenders should be provided appropriate jobs. We must not forget that all sex offenders were themselves once children who were abused.

When there is an allegation of sexual abuse an investigation is not enough. We have seen too many cases where investigations by a bais din or rabbonim concluded with the accused being found innocent; Then, years later the public finds out that not only was the conclusion false, but that in the meantime many more children had been victimized. It is very hard to prove sexual abuse, even when it is reported. The secrecy and shame involved, the years that pass before survivors are strong enough to speak out, (and many never are,) and the lack of physical scars all contribute to the problem.

The main reason that survivors don't speak out is because of what happened to me, and what happens to all survivors who challenge the image of the community; We are labeled (mostly by people who don't know us) as crazy, trouble making, unbalanced, non-credible...anything to ensure that we will not be taken seriously.

I would like to see the Jewish community adopt the same policy as the one in place in the Catholic church. All allegations of sex abuse against anyone in a position of power should require an evaluation of the accused. The evaluation should be conducted by experts who are trained to evaluate potential offenders. Being falsely accused of molestation is a horrible thing. If the accused is innocent they will have the chance to clear their name. The community or organization who hired the person to be a rabbi, to teach or counsel should pay for the evaluation. The community should support the offenders family if the person must be removed from their job. Child molesters should not be destroyed by the community, who enabled them by their silence, and they should not be allowed to destroy either. My father's actions nearly destroyed me. The rabbonim and communities responses to deny and cover up child abuse is destroying yidishkeit!

Sincerely, A frum incest survivor

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I'm very glad for you that you are married to such a wonderful person, and I'm so impressed at the level of understanding you've achieved. You sound like such an amazing person, and your husband and children are truly lucky to have you.

May you and they continue to have tremendous bracha in your lives.

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A number of people have commented, in bitterness, how they feel that their leaders have let them down. This is nothing new, how often did Moshe say "A little more and they will stone me"? The only reason that generation got someone like Moshe, is precisely because they demanded the absolute best.

However, it is not enough to demand the best. If you get the best then you must treat them like it. Your leaders have done an amazing job in keeping your communities together through some of the most difficult times imaginable. They deserve credit for it.

Did they drop the ball on this one? Maybe, but then again, maybe they didn't have such great options to begin with. I am not here to make excuses for your leadership. But perspective is a handy thing to have.

I think David H. is correct in demanding that this issue be addressed. I think it is fair for him to say that not addressing this issue is going to lead to a breakdown in trust. At the same time my friend, you have to give your leaders the opportunity and means to address it.

You may be wondering how I can say that. How many times did our second King, David, say "these sons of Zeruya are too hard for me"? He knew very well that injustice was being committed, but he simply did not have the political power to get rid of them. Nor is he the only one of our kings that were faced with that situation. Anyone who studies the Prophets, is struck by how many times we read of Jewish kings who were praised for dealing with altars outside of the temple, or for dealing with this idol-worshipping cult. What, did the previous kings not know of it? Of course they knew, but there is only so much they can handle at one time.

The same thing is true here. Only sixty years ago, we were on the bring of extinction. Not just physically, but culturally as well. It is a bit much to expect your leaders to put together a shattered community and at the same time deal with isolated atrocities perpetrated by the very same people who can make and break the community.

There was another Jewish king who tried that, his name was Ish-Boshes, and we know what happened to him.

But if everyone protests, if everyone makes it their business to bring this issue to the forefront, then that will give these leaders the means to take a real stand against it. And mind you, that isn't a small thing you are asking for. Omerta, for lack of a better word, is the very thing which has kept the community alive through two millenia of incredibly hostile environments. To scrap it now, is asking for a great deal. However, if it really is important to you, then tell your leaders that you will back them 100% in whatever they need to do to deal with this terrible Evil.

-ron

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Thank you for having the courage to write this article. The awareness in our community that this article helps generate surely goes a long way to solve the problem.

Kol Tuv,

Akiva

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I tried to compose what you so eloquently and sentisitively contributed above, but there is no way I could have explained things as clearly as you stated them. No one but a victim truly has the perspective from many different angles and variables vis a vis the victim, the Jewish child, the client, the patient, the student, the adult, the survivor, the wife and the parent; to have experienced the horror,the terror, the humiliation of the actions and then the reactions of adults who are supposed to be the protectors, healers and defenders.

No one but the victim has the "right" to decide to go after the perpetrator or the Rabbonim involved. You yourself had the the right to expose and/or sue even the therapist for malpractice and you chose to put it behind you. You have stated clearly how you would like the perpetrators investigated and handled. You have stated how the Church handles situations, but I am sure you understand that the Church themselves denied the ongoing existence for decades and just recently started to take the situation seriously and give victims their voice. We might be behind them but we are working to catch up.

It would be ridiculous for the K'lal to think they could at this time force the issue and go after your father or others like him because they have the "right" to know who he is. No one can be forced to tell their story publicly so that the "K'lal" can have the satisfaction of going after the vilain. These are sensitive issues, and only a person who wishes to persue this in that fashion, and wishes to expose someone publicly, and ask the K'lal for help can do so. We are not Bounty Hunters, WE cannot seek out these individuals and go out like vigilantes on a mission.

#71, you are a remarkable woman. Your parents are very lucky to have a child who has so much compassion and forgiveness within her. Unfortunately there are parents who do not recognize the gems that are the children Hashem gifted to us. I am very sure that you would love to have your children know that they have grandparents on both sides. I am sure you would love to show off your children to your parents. But undertand this. It is your parents' great loss, especially your mother's that she denied herself the opportunity to know you, a very special woman, a woman who deserves much respect and admiration (I am quite sure your husband would agree)and someone who could have also been her very good and understanding friend. Because she herself has gone through a lot in her lifetime and I am sure that there is no one in her life as understanding and as forgiving as you are. It could very well be the fact that she cannot face you, for the hurt she caused you, for not believing you and not protecting you. But that is her problem not yours.

You have made some very appropriate suggestions regarding supervision and since you mention that your father is a principal in a elementary school, there are measures that could be and should be implemented in Yeshivas and day schools. I have mentioned this before to local Rabbonim:

There should never be a solid door to any office or classroom. Every office door should have a window so office staff or anyone can peek inside.

Even "private" discussions can and should include a third party whether it is the executive assistant or the principal, assistant principal, or guidance counselor.

Many parents request "rides" for their children from Rebbes and teachers instead of inconveniencing themselves or paying for transportation. Please rethink this concept.

Cameras should be placed outside bathroom doors, so monitoring can be accomplished as to who is going in and out, in case someone follows a child inside.

As far as the very serious "mikvah" situation. Maybe parents should rethink the age little boys should start going to the mikveh. Maybe the concept of Tznius should apply to men as well as women. Maybe privacy partitions should be placed in mens Mikvehs so that they could go straight from a changing room into the water and right back out like women do instead of loitering around like a Turkish Bath making the Mikveh a place of gossip and chilul instead of kedusha.

Again # 71, I appreciate your honesty and respect you for your insightful contribution. I only wish for your sake and others that your honesty would have helped you as a child instead of turned against you.

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It sounds to me like she does believe you, but is afraid, maybe for your brothers and other family member's shidduchim, I don't know.

It just sounds to me like She believes you and/or knows that you are telling the truth, but simply can't admit it publicaly, just like you couldn't for a long time.

and that maybe is why she said that she would see you in eretz yisroel in the times of moshiach, because then she wont have to suffer any loss from it, the secret will be out.

I hope I've helped some, and I want to say that I am very very impressed and inspired by your story above. You sound like a truly remarkable and amazing woman and person.

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I hate to say this, but I find your attitude terribly disturbing. You repeatedly use these clichés and empty platitudes, like "Do not accept unacceptable behavior" and "We can't change the past, we can only do things differently today and much better tomorrow." I call them empty, because despite all the other wonderful and helpful ideas which you delineate, you refuse to take the one most important action which these kinds of attitudes call for - Getting rid of the people who are allowing this kind of activity! You say "do not accept unacceptable behavior" yet you seem willing to accept the unacceptable behavior of leaders who try to keep people quiet! You say "we can only do things differently today" yet your comments clearly show that in certain respects you aren't doing anything different at all! You're maintaining many of those same harmful attitudes which allow these people to continue their atrocities! Thankfully, you do have some helpful ideas in order to prevent actual occurrences of abuse in the future, but you seem to not really want to do anything to reveal who the enablers of the abusers are.

In my humble opinion, to claim that "no one but the victim has the "right" to decide to go after the perpetrator or the Rabbonim involved" is absurd! Why in the world would you think that only the victims of crimes should be concerned about criminals? What about everyone else who lives among the criminals?! I don't understand how you can take this issue so seriously, yet still choose to remain willfully ignorant of who the perpetrators of these crimes are! If someone told you that a teacher in your child's school was suspected of mistreating children, I know you wouldn't sit back and say, "well, its not for me to worry about. Let the parents of that child worry about it," yet that seems to be exactly what you're doing here. I honestly don't understand this paradoxical reaction. On the one hand, you clearly acknowledge how important it is to deal with this issue, yet on the other hand, you seem to prefer living with the risk and being careful to avoid it, rather than removing the danger outright!

This despicable person is not just a villain, as you put it, someone akin to a bad guy from a childhood story. It is a dangerous criminal, someone who can potentially ruin many people's lives! Would you call a murderer simply "a villain", and say that "it would be ridiculous for the K'lal to think they could at this time force the issue...because they have the "right" to know who he is"?

This brave survivor wants the public to know who her father is, and revealed it to the world. The only reason I'm not actually revealing it now (and I assume she didn't) is because Rabbi H. doesn't want any names mentioned on his forum. But anyone can now easily find it out because of that prior link. She told the world. She made it public. She went to the rabbonim. To the therapists. And nothing was done!!! Don't you think that itself is criminal? Don't you think that people who reacted like that should be removed from positions where they can continue to harm people in that way? Or do you think that it's just better to forget the past and that being more vigilant and careful is all that's needed?

People have reacted to my demand that gedolim be held accountable by saying we shouldn't be looking for someone to blame. This is not just about blame and about not setting certain policies (although it also about that). This is about complicity. It's about criminal conduct. If they assisted a killer no one would think twice that they should not be taken to task. Why is this any different? Let's spell this out very clearly: If a person was notified about a danger and had the ability to prevent it and chose not to do something about that, and more people were harmed as a result of his inaction, shouldn't that person be held accountable?

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I personally advocate and work hard for change and to help children. I don't wait for others to do it, I do it myself. I stand up to Rabbonim and Yeshivas as necessary and don't wait for a possum or lynch mob for safety in numbers. I personally put my neck on the line. And if you would like to put some action where your thoughts and voice is you can too. If something is upsetting you and irritating you, you can find a way to put things right in a proper way.

If I knew that there was a suspected molestor in a school but the victim did not wish to expose him/her for their own reasons, I would find a way to establish rules and guidelines in the entire school. I would be present in the school building as much as possible and make it known that I suspect someone is acting inappropriately. Basically that would be putting that person on notice. That person would not know for sure if I knew who it was, or they might think that I know it is them but for whatever reasons I might have I am not exposing them, however I am there to promote protective guidelines to stop him/her.

If the perpetrator was a member of the victim's family how exactly do you think you can go about finding out who it is? Or that you have the right to know that? This victim Anon #71, clearly stated that she told as a child, but no one believed her. She was a mere 18 years old, still a child and no match for the adults in her world. There are other blogs where she can print her story. She could have said, if you want to know who the therapist was or who my father is go to ..... and you can find out. Why do you think your rights are more prevalent than hers or other victims?

The point is that we have to do what is best for our children and that is protecting them from harm. Being pro-active, using our brains and our hearts. Concentrating on keeping our children safe for the present and the future is what it is all about in all areas of their lives. Getting consumed with hate and anger for things that happened in the past in case you happen to live in the same neighborhood as a pervert is not as effective as having the tools, means and methods of prevention and protection. Doing positive and productive things is better than concentrating on punishing evil or sick individuals. Again, if the victims choose to go after the offenders, they should. If they want our help to do so, we are here for them and we will not be deaf, dumb and blind. But we can't demand that they tell us who these people are. We just can't. Everyone is entitled to their little inch of privacy. And if they wish to keep it private for whatever reason they choose to, whether it is because they have forgiven and moved on, and going after them will force them to relive it, then we have to honor that. Can you understand that at all? Can you understand where their rights supercede your need to know?

We now accept the fact that it does happen in our backyards. It happens in our own homes, with relatives, friends, educators and supervisors. OK, I hope we all got that. Children are not to be taken for granted, everyone of them are precious. Remember to put their needs before your own. Now, think of productive ways and means to protect them in all aspects of their lives. If you see something or know of something that is "unacceptable behavior, dont' accept it" Do something about it Dovid, don't wait for your neighbor, your Rav, The board of Rabbi's, Daas Torah, Rabbi Horowitz, me, and so on to do it first.

When I started working with kids at risk in my neighborhood and started kicking up the dust many people told me "what do you hope to accomplish? You are only one person, a drop in the bucket what can one person do?" Well I said, every collected drop will eventually fill up the bucket, if I don't try I'll never know. Every positive action counts. I have a lot of nachas from those accomplishments that others told me not to bother with.

So the same goes for you. Don't sit idly by and accept unacceptable behavior. Don't listen to others cry out in pain. Don't wait for others to fix things and say "I can't, I don't know how"; I can't is not in my vocabulary. If you don't know how, learn how find a way. Consult your own Rav who you yourself trust. Speak to your own attorney. Advocate for your child or neighbor's child. Don't sit around and wait to be counted in a statistic.

If you just want to know who perpetrators are so you will feel safer, I am sure you can go to many blogs on the internet to get your fill of Loshon Horah and information. But that is not going to keep your children safe because there are always new "sickos" out there. So therefore I say you can't change the past. If victims want to punish their offenders and want us to stand behind them, we will be happy to come out in droves. If not, stop looking backward and look forward to make this world a safer, cleaner environment for our children and grandchildren.

I hope I have cleared up any misconceptions you have about my thoughts and opinions on the subject.

Hatzlocha, Sherree

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First of all, following that link which was posted, will indicate that she did name names, of her father, and therapists, the Rabbonim she went to, all of them, who tried to silence her and did not listen to what she had to say!

Secondly, I'm not advocating people be forced to confess things they want to keep private. I'm talking about people, like this brave woman, who have opened up about things, and no one wants to do anything. I never intended that a victim should be forced to undergo further trauma, even if it might bring about justice. I would hope that they find the strength to do what they can to help (like this woman did), but never to force the person to undergo any further suffering. What I am talking about is where there is already established strong evidence or suspicion about someone.

I'm very glad that you do take action, and for all you know (which you obviously can't) I also might actually be doing much to rectify these situations. I actually have personally been directly involved with bringing a known rabbinic pedophile to justice. But the difference between you and me seems to be that you are only concerned with protecting the children from the danger, but not actually removing the pedophiles (and those who allow them to roam freely), while I am more concerned with removing the source of this danger directly. Which is not to say that your efforts are not important. They most definitely are, but to my mind, as long as one refuses to address the danger itself, any efforts to protect from the danger itself seem a bit hollow.

> If you just want to know who perpetrators are so you will feel safer, I am sure you can go to many blogs on the internet to get your fill of Loshon Horah and information.

I must say I am in utter shock at the above comment and your insistence that my demand for locking up criminals is simply an act of "getting consumed with hate and anger for things that happened in the past". (Based on your reasoning, it would seem that the entire prison system, or even the justice system itself, is kind of pointless.) I don't just "want to know to feel safer." I want to know so that I can take efforts to remove the danger! Or at least, know about the danger so that I can avoid it at all costs! I can't believe that you actually say that locking up a criminal up is "not as effective as having the tools, means and methods of prevention and protection"! Are you actually serious? You don't think that removing the actual danger is not a worthwhile step to take to protect people?! I honestly do not understand how you can say that. It simply boggles my mind. (Again, I'm talking here about when the basis for being concerned about someone is already well established.) Sure, there might always be future perpetrators, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't deal with the ones we can now! I'm not saying it's an either/or approach. Both are essential strategies. Protection and prevention by instituting appropriate policies AND efforts to remove (or limit) the actual dangers when we can ascertain them!

I applaud your efforts and all you have done to help people. But I must say that I find your attitude extremely upsetting. To my mind, anyone who knows about a potential danger and does not do what they can to prevent that danger is acting contrary to what the torah demands of them. It seems from what you write that you would rather allow a known danger to roam free, as long as people are protected (which we all know can never be guaranteed - you can't watch the danger 24/7), rather than take efforts to remove the danger itself.

Finally, I just want to ask you one last thing. You wrote: "If I knew that there was a suspected molestor in a school but the victim did not wish to expose him/her for their own reasons, I would find a way to establish rules and guidelines in the entire school."

If you replace the word 'molester' with 'killer', would the rest of the statement still remain the same? If not, please elaborate why you would react differently to a suspected killer than you would to a suspected molester.

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“If your child comes to you chas v'shalom with a story, listen attentively and don't ask too many questions, just let them speak and repeat what they said to make sure you understood them. Then walk into another room and call your support system for instructions. It is better for you to allow the experts to ask the questions and for them to hear the story first hand than for you to ask too many questions that might inadvertently misguide them or read too much into their story out of fear and panic.”

It is vital that ONLY experienced, qualified experts question the child to prevent the following 2 scenarios:

1) I was personally involved in a case in which 20-year-old untrained madrichas talked to the abused girls, and although it was clear from many incidents reported by both the girls’ teachers and the principal that there was incestuous abuse going on, the whole situation got so mucked up that, even though the police became involved, things came to a total standstill, and even the police were unable to legally do anything to help. (Just to emphasize how confused the situation was from the beginning, the madrichas themselves were lovely, idealistic, FFB, unmarried girls, and were themselves so innocent, they didn’t even understand what their young charges were telling them! Being totally unfamiliar with the whole subject, the madrichas were shocked and bewildered by what they heard, gave over a discombobulated report, and things went just kept continuing downhill from there…) I managed to get the names of two of the accused families and reported it to a rav who I thought would handle it properly so that the girls might still have a chance to escape the abuse. But the standstill could’ve been totally prevented had experts been called in from the beginning.

2) Secondly, false accusations ARE sometimes made. Small children especially are easily led witnesses who can be manipulated by adults (both intentionally and unintentionally), or they may say, for example, it’s their uncle when it’s really their father because it’s psychologically too traumatic to point the finger at their parent. Undiagnosed mental illness can also prompt a false accusation.

As important as it is to protect an innocent child from continued abuse, it’s equally important to protect an innocent adult (or an older child) from a false accusation. The only way to do this is to follow Sherree’s suggestion above.

And Sherree, while your dedication to the rights of the victim and your own activism and courage are exactly what’s needed in our community, I’m still going to side with Dovid H. about actively prosecuting a known abuser. While the victim should receive all support and protection necessary to face the ordeal, and certainly, details should be hidden to whatever extent possible to protect the privacy of the abused, yet the potential victims have an equal right to be protected.

Even in a case of incest, the abuser can be removed without the specific details of WHO he abused. Let people know he abused a child; who needs to specify that it was his own? Yes, I admit even that’s not always practical, but we can try our best. Please realize, I don’t say this lightly. I’m very familiar with the horrific ordeal victims face when things go public.

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it was the other way around - the misnagdim did not approve of chasidim following a Rebbe, the Nefesh Ha'Chaim makes this point clearly

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I have already pointed out that this article is a rerun (not a follow-up).

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no, it wasn't "simply" that

it was/is an individual perverting the Torah sources to fit his beliefs and it didn't take courage (with or without quotation marks) to do so. I had the guts to write him directly and tell him, in a lengthy dialogue, why his views are unacceptable.

when it comes to Halacha or Emunos V'Deios one is not at liberty to select views one likes

Can I choose the view in the Gemara that chicken and milk is not an isur and have chicken parmesan? Nope. Same with beliefs.

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According to the vast majority of rishonim who ever commented about the topic (infact I'm not aware of a single dessenting voice, and I'm not sure that the censure that the rambam enjoyed is truly relevant) one is completely free to accept or reject such things at ones pleasure, particularly midrashim or the contents of the mefarshim on chumash.

as long as one has 1 authority to rely on, one is ok in the grounds of things like the torah view of the age of the world. Note that at least rabbi elyashiv (whom I am not fond of but I take it you are) stated when asked about a similar question something that ammounted to "what are you asking me for? I'm a rabbi, go ask someone who knows about chumash."

Most of the rabbis who censured slifkin were not experts on hashkafa and chumash and navi (which defines hashkafa).

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Well, how come when it comes to wigs, and Slifkin, and bugs in our vegetables, and filters on our faucets, and so many other minor issues (compared to the issue of sexual abuse) they seem to be fine with setting policy?

On what basis have you decided that lavin like abizrahu d'avoda zara and the eating of shratzim are minor issues?

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if our forefathers were not accustomed to throw out strawberries, then we should not either.

We are only required to check within reasonable means.

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The Catholic church is notorious for its coverups of sexual abuse!

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Can you explain how it helps and why it is that we are hearing of much more sexual abuse at the same time that we are reading more and more about it? If awareness helps solve the problem, there should be fewer cases, not more!

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It is sad that you misread me once again and think or go so far as state that I believe that perpetrators and pedephiles should be allowed to roam the streets freely and we should do nothing to remove them from civilized society. That is not what I said, nor what I implied. When the information is released you can do work together to get that accomplished. But you can't force a victim to release this private information.

#71 has just stated that she has no problem giving out this information as she has done before. Anyone who wishes to know who the people involved in her issues were, can post their personal emails and she will write to them. Ask her if she wants us to picket his elementary school and put him out of business. Ask her if she wants us to picket his home and force him to move. Ask her what she wants us to do to help her and help others. Did he do this to others outside the family or is it just a family issue? Should we picket the Rav's home or send him a petition because he destroyed an entire family? What does she feel would be in her best interest and then organize a group of people to assist. Here is my personal email. If there is anything I can do to assist please let me know. Sherree@Belsky.us

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Slifkin-type views are presented to make certain scientific beliefs (because science is also a religion) palatable to religious Jews. If you are writing from a Lubavitcher perspective (comment #69), you should be supporting the view of the Lubavitcher Rebbe which was to denounce the apologists and to state, in no uncertain terms, that the six days of creation were 24 hour periods and that we write gittin based on the number of years since creation, 5700+ years ago.

If you think that one needs to be an expert on Chumash and Navi because they define hashkafa, I assume you are aware that Slifkin is not an expert on any part of Torah, certainly not Tanach, though the Lubavitcher Rebbe was renowned for his expertise in every part of Torah.

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that is absurd and has no Torah basis

shatnez, for example, was a mes mitzva which Mr. Rosenberg a'h revived. Tznius slipped in many countries and boruch Hashem, there are big improvements in that area. Of course we must improve our mitzva observance!

If our ancestors were accustomed to ignore certain aspects of religious observance, we should strengthen our observance, not maintain their low levels!

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Can you understand that?

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We are not allowed to do such things, or at the very least doing such things is not such a simple procedure.

"tradition is a fence for the torah" says perkei avos. I would sugest that you take that quote seriously.

and likewise about the picking and choosing, many, many rishonim stated explicitly that one may.

and i don't think that slifkins comments are capable of being called appologetics when they were first stated by the ramban many hundreds of years before science ever put forward such an oppinion, and last I checked ramban in no small player. (and this interpretation of him is confirmed by explicit mention (such that it cannot be confused) by his student rabbi yitzchak of akko.)

but that isn't the subject of the discussion here.

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I don't know you personally, but I have learned to love you, admire, respect and appreciate you tremendously here in just the few weeks that I have joined this website. You have grown in my eyes in leaps and bounds. I understand from your own posts that you are young, but very wise beyond your years both in learning, common sense and experience. I look forward to reading any and all of your posts because they truly bring perspective and insight to any subject and seem to draw us back to the questions at hand. It is an honor to work with you in the same forum of learning and understanding. You have already taught me a lot and I look forward to continue you learning and growing from you.

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Known perps should be prosecuted to the exent of the law. Victims must be willing to cooperate but no one can force them to, they are entitled to their privacy and dignity. Anyone involved in hiding, or protecting an accused felon should be prosecuted as an "accomplice", again witnesses must be willing to testify against them and not be forced to under any circumstances.

The focus must be to aid and assist and not bully victims in our need to know and protect our children. The best protection is knowledge and prevention. Going after known felons of the past and not preparing ourselves for new ones cropping up is just as bad as those of old burying their heads in the sand in the old stories. Our best defense and means of prevention is to find ways to avoid having our children in unsupervised or poorly supervised situations. Only trust in Hashem, humans are falible. Check out schools and make sure they are visable environments. Make sure the home environment does not allow for "private encounters". Make sure you make the effort to pick up your children and don't ask rides from strangers even if they are frum. Teach yoru children there are safety in numbers. etc.

If your child tells you of an incident, listen attentively, repeat the story word for word to make sure you have it right, then call your support team, whether it is the child's doctor or your attorney and wait for instructions. Don't confuse the child with quesitons or comments. Just listen to the facts and take it to a professional without judgments.

If anyone has anything to clarify or add to this list, I would appreciate it you would state it clearly now without adding any more confusion to the issue.

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Known perps should be prosecuted to the exent of the law. Victims must be willing to cooperate but no one can force them to, they are entitled to their privacy and dignity. Anyone involved in hiding, or protecting an accused felon should be prosecuted as an "accomplice", again witnesses must be willing to testify against them and not be forced to under any circumstances.

The focus must be to aid and assist and not bully victims in our need to know and protect our children. The best protection is knowledge and prevention. Going after known felons of the past and not preparing ourselves for new ones cropping up is just as bad as those of old burying their heads in the sand in the old stories. Our best defense and means of prevention is to find ways to avoid having our children in unsupervised or poorly supervised situations. Only trust in Hashem, humans are falible. Check out schools and make sure they are visable environments. Make sure the home environment does not allow for "private encounters". Make sure you make the effort to pick up your children and don't ask rides from strangers even if they are frum. Teach yoru children there are safety in numbers. etc.

If your child tells you of an incident, listen attentively, repeat the story word for word to make sure you have it right, then call your support team, whether it is the child's doctor or your attorney and wait for instructions. Don't confuse the child with quesitons or comments. Just listen to the facts and take it to a professional without judgments.

If anyone has anything to clarify or add to this list, I would appreciate it you would state it clearly now without adding any more confusion to the issue.

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I do have reactions to several posts in this thread, and I do not have enough time to cover all of them. Here are a few.

Abuse that is physical, not sexual, exists. Likewise, there is plenty of emotional abuse. Perpetrators include family members, neighbors, and those involved with schools. I pay less attention to the statistics. Each victim (or episode of victimization) is one too many, and for that individual, the incidence is 100%.

There is major difficulty in conducting proper research to determine the prevalence of the problem. Are all kids who go off the derech victims? Who knows? Many are, and say so openly. Is that information accurate and reliable? Perhaps not, but the data reflect the illusion that the problem is anomalous or rare. For me, that is enough to warrant public attention, and it is grounds for the development of policies and attitudes that can prevent such victimization.

Daas Torah has addressed the subject. Have our gedolim done enough? I don’t know, and I do not consider myself qualified to judge gedolim. There is one issue (too large to be followed in this thread – it deserves its own forum) that needs to be highlighted. Our community is being quite secular in its approach. One does not need to go far in the secular media to find that the worst perpetrators of crime and violence are granted extreme lengths of “rights” and privileges, despite the horrors they inflicted on others. Check the “rights” given to convicted felons and prisoners, etc. We do much the same when accusations are made against individuals for perpetrating such violations. It is murderously tough to achieve a firing or termination of a teacher or rebbe who abused a student (any kind of abuse). There are technicalities that get cited, lack of kosher witnesses, etc. Even multiple reports against a single perpetrator are typically dismissed. Only threats of exposure or reporting to authorities. Is firing the perpetrator all that is needed? Does the individual just move to another location and present another community with the same risk? Does the reputation follow?

Some questions posed in comment #48 deserve direct reactions. The magnitude of the problem is undeniably larger than we would wish it to be. I cannot cite numbers either. But I have also seen too many cases to consider abuse totally rare. #48 drew distinctions between different elements of abuse, and I find these distinctions accurate. Domestic violence, pedophilia, incest, rape, molestation, physical abuse, and emotional abuse certainly occupy different universes. The issue at hand is the approach to these ills from the public health perspective. Inasmuch as this perspective puts the focus on the victim, not the perpetrator, there is much overlap. Awareness is just one of those needed interventions. Systems to identify, investigate, prosecute, protect victims, educate children about personal safety, are other aspects of this.

For anyone who has been on the victim end of the issue, either having suffered the abuse, family members of victims, serving as therapist, consultant, or other professional to victims or families, the mindset is different. We seek to eradicate the problem, and we want the maximum penalty possible for perpetrators. We want every point of resistance to this eliminated. We experience rage at the systems that place roadblocks that prevent prosecution and punishment. Yet, we are driven by our passion in this regard, and the careful thought needed to conduct the process is easily overlooked.

As a way to solve this dilemma, I would like to know that Daas Torah is active in leading the way. I am not sure why I am not convinced that Daas Torah takes this situation with seriousness that many of us do. Are they inexperienced in such issues? Are they ill informed? Are they busy with other matters of the klal? Do they prioritize other issues over this one? I do not have answers to any of these questions.

One thing is certain. The problem is multifaceted, and there is no single approach that will succeed in eradicating the problem. We need awareness. We need leadership and Daas Torah. We need policies in our schools, yeshivos, shuls, and communities that will address the perpetrators and victims in ways that are responsible and sensitive. Many of the ideas advanced earlier in this thread are sound. One of our biggest challenges is navigating the territory to know what interventions need to be done with priority.

I will weigh in on one single issue, and that is the tendency to allow perpetrators to walk free without negative consequences. There is no known therapy that can insure that the perpetrator will never strike again. The average mental health professional has only minimal training, at best, in dealing with perpetrators. I personally refer such cases to others with appropriate training. We unfortunately do way too much of the “blame the victim”. It is apropos to the defense of the rapist being, “the victim tempted me.”

As for the value of this article, I repeat my earlier statement. This is good for awareness and for promoting discussion. Every contributor to this process renders the interventions and community wide changes a little bit closer.

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Here is a clarification: Going after known felons is a crucial step and is most definitely not as bad as burying ones head in the sand! Going after known felons must be done TOGETHER with preparing against future threats! Past felons are potential future perpetrators! Why do you keep brushing off the idea of going after past offenders or their enablers?

You keep saying that you are not against taking criminals off the street, but then you also say these sort of comments which indicate that you prefer that not be done. It sounds like a serious case of cognitive dissonance to me.

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No matter what I say or how I put it, there seems to be miscommunication between us or you seem to just want to believe that I prefer to forgive and forget and just let perps of the past roam free. That is not what I said, (although I do believe in forgiveness and moving on with one's life for healing purposes) you have no right to determine the extent of my feelings or the ratio or percentage of weight I personally attatch to how strongly I feel about punishing or removing suspected or accused perps and how much I attribute to protecting children now and in the future. What I did say is making that the priority instead of preparing for the here and now is like putting our heads in the sand. I never said it is not important or it shouldn't be done. Navigating my words, disecting them, or putting them under a microscope is not the issue here, nor is it the important concept of this forum. You have said what you wanted people to hear and you have stated quite important facts and very valid points. All which have been accepted and validated. I appreciate that you felt you could validate some of my points as well. I don't however appreciate being pulled into this battle and exchange having my words weighed and judged. I never said or implied or gave the weight that you are attributing to my statements. So please when you wish to make a point, make it with your own comments and your own words, not with others'. You don't know what is going on in the hearts and minds of other commentors, and you don't know whats behind the weight of their words. Read them as they are written and if you are having a strong reaction to them, read them again. Maybe it is your reaction and not necessarily the writers comments.

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When I heard the news about the so called "Rabbi" in the yeshiva in Flatbush I was devestated. My Boys had gone to that Yeshiva. Was I just one of the lucky parents that my boys were not his victims? Would my boys have told me if he had tried something with them? Would they have been smart enough to run away from him, etc.I knew this perp's mother. And what about his innocent wife and children, nebech.

And what about the whole Rabbinical administration that supported him and covered for him all those years, knowing the truth about him, and yet allowing him to continue harming young childen? What about them? Aside from legal punitive damages which was up to the DA, what has the Olam done to them? There is power in numbers, but really what has the Olam who has the right as you claim to take them off the streets, what have they done? Have they closed the Yeshiva in disgust? How many families had actually pulled their kids from that Yeshiva because of what the "Rosh" and administration covered up? Did the Olam even make a dent in their pockets?

This was a well known situation. This was a situation where the K'lal really had the power to do something. This was a situation where there was power in numbers and the voice of the people could have been heard. Did you hear anything? Should this particular institution be immune from prosecution? Should they be immune from the wrath of the K'lal? Dovid do you see my point here? Don't you think that the Parent Body should have pulled their kids out of this particular institution out of protest and disgust?

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I'm not sure what you want out of her, but I would think that your passion would be better directed toward criminals rather than someone who actively does something for children (as you yourself say you do).

Thanks for listening.

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The point of these forums is not meant to provide a place for any two individuals to simply argue between them. It is meant to be an exchange of ideas and a place that viewpoints can be hashed out. My opposition to what she is saying is not personal. It is against the ideas that I hear her expressing. Now, maybe I am not reading what she said clearly, and she never intended what I think she did, but I know very well that what I am arguing against is an attitude that is prevalent in the community. Even if she isn't intending it, it is an idea that many people subscribe to and therefore I feel it is worth addressing why I think it is wrong. People come up with all sorts of excuses why not to go after these people and the rabbonim who could have stopped them. The obvious reason is that it makes the community look extremely bad when specific people are focused on, when people who are highly respected are shown to have had a hand in this.

Basically, when you manage to untangle the issues, what this situation boils down to is that frum people are being faced with having to make a choice between safeguarding two things which are very important to them: either they choose to protect the well-being and safety of their children or they choose to protect the good name of certain rabbonim and the reputation of the community. Like a child being forced to choose between his parents, this is an excruciating situation to be placed into.

If they want to really protect their children, then the perpetrators and those involved will need to be exposed and the community will suffer greatly. If they feel the blow to the community will be too great if the truth comes out, and it's better to keep things hush-hush, then obviously we are increasing the risk to the children. This is a most difficult choice to face and I understand the difficulty people find themselves in. No one wants to make either choice. No matter what they choose, they will lose in some way.

So a compromise seems to have been settled upon in many people's minds. No one specific will be named, but we will still implement measures and institute policies that will reduce the risk. This is essentially what I hear people suggesting all the time, and that is why they are proposing it, so they can preserve both their children's safety, and minimize the damage to the community. But to me, no compromise is necessary. Protection of children far outweighs the standing of any individual people or the community as a whole. Choosing this compromise basically says the opposite, that children's well-being does not take precedence over maintaining reputations. Sherree says that she isn't actually advocating this, but many other people are, and as long as I hear it suggested I am going to step in and try to explain why I think it is a horrible decision.

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You had over 10 questions in there, so I'm not sure what I should address, but I don't see the need for there to be any question in the first place. I obviously agree with you. I've been pointing to that kind of problem in every comment I made; the apathy of the community in going after the higher-ups. Of course there should have been a mass protest of some sort, and the fact there never was is indicative of a problem in peoples attitudes! This is exactly what I've been saying. People do not want to go against the leaders of the communities who are allowing these criminals to victimize innocent children. I honestly don't understand your question. Everything you just said in that post is exactly what I've been suggesting all along. If I had said it though, based on your previous comments, I expect you might have said, "It isn't worth focusing on the past and going after previous offenders. We just need to be more careful and take steps to ensure it can't happen in the future!"

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So it would just be easier for me to read if we take the focus off Sherree, who is quite clearly on the side of child protection (creating in ME cognitive dissonance, because I read one thing in her comments, and another in yours, and I see you both on the same page), and direct this to where it really applies.

Thank you for replying so quickly!

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It is the same as the At-Risk situation. If it isn't happening in my home, it isn't happening and if it isn't about "me" its not my concern. It is not really about listening to the Gedolim. Not everyone is so heated up and willing to get their hands dirty like you and me. So again, don't read "extra" into my meaning. This was my question and this is my answer. It is about the "me" generation, the "me" concept and the "me" attitude. If it is not about "me", its not about me. If its yenem's tzoris its yenem's problem.

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Dovid will counter that the parents are innocent victims of Daas Torah gone bad... True, but Sherrie is correct in saying that parents need to stand up and do something. I think that between the lines she is saying that we can not rely on Daas Torah to help us out here. She also adds that she has gotten involved and imagine if even 10% of parents would get involved - it would cause this wall of intimidation to come crashing down in a second. But as long as we sit on the side complaining about coverup, though we are 100% correct, nothing will ever change.

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Every time someone does something others disapprove of, it's because their "daas torah" told them to do so? Come on, that's denying reality. Most people don't ask so many questions of daas torah.

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It is much easier to lay blame than to act constructively. Those who lay the blame for our societal failures at the feet of the gedolim and insinuate that would they only speak up, or do this or that, the problem would either be completely or partially solved, are not only guilty of slandering our Gedolim, they have completely missed the boat on a practical level as well.

First of all, our gedolim have spoken publicly on the - I will say painful even though the word is hopelessly inadequate - issue of child abuse/molestation. Seven or eight years ago, both Rav Pam and yibadel lechaim tovim v'aruchim, Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky spoke publicly in forums addressing this. There are thousands of copies of tapes of these addresses, as well as others. As for those charging that the gedolim should speak through the publications which claim to speak for them, a few months ago the Jewish Observer ran a lengthy article by David Mandel, CEO of Ohel, on the issue of child molestation in our community. As for "kol koreihs", the gedolim generally issue them only on matters that the public cannot determine for itself, such as fine lines in tznius or the Internet.

What kind of "kol koreih" should they issue on child abuse? One directed at the perpetrators? Ridiculous. On the fact that people should report the incidences and not hide them? The reason people don't is, I believe, by and large not because they think it's assur. It's because they are ashamed. And that is something that no kol koreih can cure.

Incidences of child abuse/molestation are notoriously underreported in EVERY society. This is not an Orthodox phenomenon. It is underreported because children are ashamed to talk about it, and because parents don't know how to handle it (and that's without even touching on the cases in which the parent is part of the problem). And our community has taken great steps in approaching those two issues.

Yes, it has taken time. But that is because, B"H, our children and our communities have special needs that must be taken into account when dealing with issues of child abuse and molestation.

I think it is high time that the discussion focus on what WE can do, rather than taking the oh-so convenient route of blaming our gedolim. And it is WE who have to set a zero-tolerance level for the heinous crimes being perpetrated against our children.

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Although this question is B"H not personally relevant and with Hashem's help should never be, I still feel I must ask it:

What to do about the situation in Eretz Yisroel, where we cannot trust the law-enforcement agencies like the police? What is a parent to do?

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Although this question is B"H not personally relevant and with Hashem's help should never be, I still feel I must ask it:

What to do about the situation in Eretz Yisroel, where we cannot trust the law-enforcement agencies like the police? What is a parent to do?

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I'd love to properly respond but the limited time that I have for writing is going to prepare column #3 in this series. (#2 will be posted here on Tuesday or Wednesday)

Bottom line; the responsibility for raising our children is ours.

Yakov

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Look at what I wrote in the column re the frog in Egypt.

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For the record, I've always been a Gedolim fan. Yesterday, our Gedolim beat the Packers. In two weeks, let's cheer on the New York Gedolim as we face the New England Patriots in the Super Bowl! :-)

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Senior members of Hatzolah who are the most responsible, sensitive and compassionate to the needs of the frum community can be trained to respond to this very delicate situation. Victims and parents of victims who have a definite or suspected case of abuse or molestation would call the regular emergency number, but the dispatcher would relay a code to the Hatzloha members. In other words instead of saying outright there is a molestation or abuse case all over the radio that everyone standing next to Hatzolah member can hear, they would relay a "code orange in Queens" for example, and any of the trained personel who are in the area could call into the main number or hotline number to get the details. They can then proceed to the address quietly without lights or sirenes and without bringing attention from the neighbors.

After taking the report and speaking carefully with the victim, they can follow the procedure, whether it is to take the victim to a designated hospital or GYN for DNA samples (rape kit), or to a designated therapist, call the police or designated attorney. It might be as simple as giving the victim or family a list of therapists or attorneys who have joined the "TEAM" to assist in such cases with the protection of the victim in mind. A procedure booklet might be given to the family or victim which might include getting an "order of protection" immediately in place against the perp to keep him/her away from the victim. It might be suggested that a private investigator or body guard be placed around the home or victim. Some kind of surveilance system might be put in place. Knowlege is power and whatever routine should be or could be implemented might not be thought of by the victim or family because of their own pain, frustration, fear and confusion. But a team of trained individuals with a clear thought process can be very helpful in such cases.

If one central organization was used to handle and assist victims, there would be a way of keeping track of statistics and of perps, as well as one emergency number to know and call for assistance. It would also be a way of knowing that the people you were calling were knowlegeable, trained, compassionate, sensitive and following Torah guidelines, would not invade your daled amos in an insensitive or non-tzniusdik fashion.

People would be more apt to call Hatzolah than to call Police. Once Police are involved, the Child Protective Services are invovled as well. Once you get them into your lives you can't shake them. If it is a false alarm, and they are all over you it can take months to get your children out of their system. So dealing with an organization such as Hatzolah who is sensitive to the needs of the Frum community would help the fear of reporting these incidents and help guide families through the process without fear of horrendous things happening to them. They can take care of the needs of the victim and get proper advice to follow without worrying about the other "what ifs".

Just a thought, what do you think about this Rabbi Horowitz?

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The others, who I'm sure consult with the Gedolim each time they notice problems in their communities, will continue to point the blame at others, out of fear that they actually might have to do something themselves. The Gedolim aren't your Tatty and Mommy, and you're not a minor any longer in any case, so if you've got a question that you think your Godol can answer, get off your laurels and actually make an appointment and go see them. Oh, that's too much to expect for poor me, victim of all daas Torah. Much easier to nod and discuss oh so wisely how everyone else has failed us.

Anyone who has not made an appointment and spoken to their Godol personally regarding any one of their questions and concerns is simply making a mockery of themselves in a issue regarding Gedolim. Being that I myself have been involved, and yes, been in contact with my specific leader, who with sensitivity and wisdom has helped me and so many others in a painful situation, I laugh, though with bitterness, at those who are too lazy to make appointments with Gedolim themselves. It is those who point fingers who bear responsibility for not DOING- only those involved in real cases, in which Gedolim HAVE been consulted, have any idea of who is really doing something to protect our children. Aside from Askanim who have a big part in this also, such as Sherree (how do you say Askan in the female?) who takes action, R' Horowitz who raises awareness and refers callers, and people like Chaya who reassure me that there is still some intellect in regards to this problem. This is NOT to deny the reality that there are pseudo Rabbis out there who not only do not address issues appropriately when the matter is brought to them, but actively work in the opposite way. That is sick. But the real Gedolim, who hear you with the greatest compassion, take steps to set up a network of help and support for you, take quiet community action to protect children when legal action is not possible due to people refusing to testify (and children cannot be made to testify- they need therapy, and its understandable that a parent won't want their child going through court or other legal procedures which might further exacerbate their trauma). But oh, it's the Gedolim's fault. Also their fault when your washing machine breaks down. May as well get it all in.

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you make an excellent suggestion, but ....

Trust me, with the state on denial and misplaced fear of 'mesirah', all that would happen is that many people will stop calling hatzalah.

It is a sad comment, but true nonetheless.

Yakov

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I do what I can regarding sexual abuse, but it’s a horrible trial with no clear Torah guidelines and knowing that psychology flip-flops throughout the decades, making it less reliable than I’d like. It's hard to be proactive when you stand at a fork in the road with no clue which way brings you to your goal. I think that’s the root of a lot of frustration expressed here regarding the overwhelming silence (with the exceptions that Chaya mentioned) of gedolim. I’m aware of the excellent points Chaya raised, and I’m the first to agree that, with all our problems, we’re still the most moral society in the world. But we aren’t supposed to compare ourselves to the other nations, we only supposed to look at Hashem’s standards for us. Anytime the non-Jews deal with a grave problem more quickly and with greater competency than we do, should be cause for concern, and should spur us to make a serious self-accounting.

What's more, I honestly do not understand why this topic is separate from questioning the gedolim’s silence. Are we a nation led by experts and politicians, as are the others, or by people whose heads AND hearts are infused with Torah? The fact that we esteem daas Torah over any other authority is exactly what makes us so different than the rest of the world. We sincerely want to do Hashem’s will, and that’s what chinuch, fighting sexual abuse, etc. are all about.

Beis Yaakov, Shemiras Halashon, and Daf Yomi would not have succeeded without the clear support and proactive encouragement of the gedolim. And neither will the fight against sexual abuse, unless they involve themselves more proactively.

I also wanted to say that I regret using Slifkin as an example because there are so many issues involved with that topic, I feel it detracted from my main point.

My main point that there’s a lack of priorities in our leadership, and I think we need to take responsibility for that and reconsider WHICH rabbanim should lead us. (I believe that proactive, courageous daas Torah actually exists, but I think we keep screaming “DID YOU ASK DAAS TORAH?” every time they make a move, which slows things down and also means we need to ask ourselves exactly how we define “daas Torah”.) I think we also need to stop acting like they have ruach hakodesh when it’s clear that in this generation, they don’t. In general, I don’t see our present leadership emphasizing the issues according to the importance that HASHEM accorded. We know that while d’rabbanans are extremely important, d’oreisas are even more so. We also know that person-to-person mitzvahs are more highly esteemed in Hashem’s eyes than person-to-Creator mitzvahs—this is not my invention, of course. Numerous sefarim throughout the centuries make this point.

The charedi gedolim have managed to make an impressive revolution in the area of shmitah, including rallies. I personally go by their psakim in shemita because it’s basic halachah. Yet these same rabbanim do not “rally the masses” with regard to sexual abuse.

Shmita, while originally a d’oreisa, is today a d’rabbanan. It’s a bein adam l’makom mitzvah, not adam l’adam. And for the most part, it’s only observable once every seven years. Yet the prohibitions against sexual abuse, and the commandments to not put a stumbling block before the blind, to not stand in the blood of your neighbor, etc. are for the most part immediate, person-to-person d’oreisas! Obviously, gedolim can organize the community to keep shmita, burn shaytels in cases of avodah zara, etc. These are very important, beautiful mitzvahs. But according to the priorities established by Hashem and clarified by Chazal, are these mitzvahs FIRST in line? Are they the most urgent?

And what about our hearts? As much as I truly love Eretz Yisrael and as much I realize the brachas received when keeping the mitzvahs of the Land, my heart cries out for the victims of sexual abuse more than it does for the abuse of Israel’s holy produce and soil (although that pains me, too).

I used to blindly follow the gedolim, but found myself unable to do so after personally receiving aitzah from a couple of them that showed low emotional intelligence and lack of compassion, thereby messing up my life and my kids, plus seeing their public priorities, as shown through their bans and proclamations.

We used to have to keep tabs on Nevi’im, even those with a good track record. I don’t see why it’s considered such kefira to do the same with today’s rabbanonim.

By the way #113, you’re right, parents probably didn’t ask daas Torah about removing their children from the school. When they saw that “daas Torah” loudly censured, without hesitation or regard for the effect on the wife and kids, the Michshol selling trafe chickens, yet remained silent regarding sexual abuse and its cover-up, they probably assumed that “daas Torah” didn’t consider the school’s actions such a severe problem…

You can call me a “gedolim-basher”, but that’s not how I see myself. I’m disappointed and I’m pained and I’m struggling.

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1.False Memory Syndrome is a term that was coined by a man named Ralph Underwager who wrote for a publication called Pedophilia and was interviewed by Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia. He described pedophilia as a responsible choice!! Two of the FMSF advisory board members published an interview advocating pedophilia as a potentially healthy lifestyle! (Need I say more?) 2.The False Memory Syndrome Foundation was started by parents, Peter and Pamela Freyd, who were accused of incest by their daughter, a respected psychology professor. The abuse was later corroborated by siblings and other relatives in the family. 3.THERE IS NO SUCH DIAGNOSES AS FMS. It is NOT a scientific term and does not exist in any diagnostic manual...unlike PTSD, (post traumatic stress disorder), and dissociative disorders, which are common to survivors of sexual abuse and other traumas. 4.Perpetrators of sexual abuse have a lot more to gain by having “false memories” of what happened then their victims. I suspect that #71's father and family are the ones with a 'false memory,' caused by denial.

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But what about communal responsibilities? How do we deal with the abusers in our midst? Obviously I would want my children to totally avoid such people. But how can I tell my child not to even talk with so-and-so without knowing who he/she is?

Bottom line: we can educate our children about inappropriate touching and keep the dialog open so they will tell us embarrassing things that may happen. But this needs to go hand-in-hand with some type of communal enforcement / awareness of the individuals. That is what does not exist today. And that is what we need the leadership to deal with. No?

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1. Mandatory background checks of school employees; 2. Mandatory reporting of abuse; 3. Mandatory registration of employees, and discipline where there is misconduct; 4. Mandatory abuse prevention plans.

These proposed laws will, in all likelihood, bring about the near-eradiction of abuse in our schools. They will act as a strong deterrent.

As far as intra-family abuse, that will be diminished, and at least addressed, because of the mandatory reporting aspect. Mandatory reporting will require nonpublic school employees to report evidence of abuse, when it comes to their attention.

This package of laws will also get the word out that the orthodox Jewish community has no tolerance for child abuse.

Our community needs to get behind this Resolution. For those who seek formal Daas Torah guidance from a Gadol of your own hashkafa, discuss the RCA Resolution with a Gadol or your Rav. Support the Resolution in whole or in part. Share the Resolution with your friends. Make a copy from the RCA web page (rabbis.org); or contact me at my email address above. Bring the Resolution to the attention of your State Assembly and State Senate representatives. Post the Resolution in your shuls. Ask your Rav to speak about the Resolution Shabbos morning. Lo sa'amod al dam ra'echa is a mitzvah. Do not stand upon the blood of your brother - or your children, or our children.

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U.S. immigrant beaten up in 'pogrom' by ultra-Orthodox gang By Daphna Berman, Haaretz Correspondent Tags: ultra-Orthodox, Beit Shemesh

An American immigrant was attacked and beaten Sunday night in Beit Shemesh by a gang of ultra-Orthodox zealots, in what appears to be an escalation of tension between religious groups in the city.

T., who is himself ultra-Orthodox, was kicked, beaten and threatened with further violence in an attack that landed him in the hospital. T.'s car windows were also smashed. T., who asked to go unnamed, has been active in trying to stem the recent tide of Haredi violence in the city.

"A bunch of goons, maybe 20 or 30 guys, attacked me - it was like a pogrom," he told Haaretz. "They kicked me, beat me, and then just left me there. Luckily, I am a strong guy and was able to get up and go to the hospital." Advertisement In response, residents of Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet, a Haredi stronghold in the city, held a protest last night. This was the first time ultra-Orthodox residents came out strongly against fringe elements from within their own community.

"My attackers thought they won, but there is a procession in my support," said T., who was born in New York. In recent months, Beit Shemesh residents have banded against what they call growing religious intimidation and coercion by some Haredi residents of the city.

This week, a family in one of the city's modern Orthodox neighborhoods received warnings and threats because a television in their living room faced a main thoroughfare that borders an ultra-Orthodox housing project. In October, five ultra-Orthodox men assaulted a woman and an Israel Defense Forces soldier for sitting next to each other on a bus bound for Beit Shemesh.

Signs along main streets call on people to dress modestly, meanwhile, and women say they no longer feel comfortable jogging along some roads.

T., who has since been released from the hospital, helped organize a recent protest against the violence. Sources say the attack on Sunday was a culmination of ongoing harassment.

Shalom Lerner, deputy mayor of Beit Shemesh, told Haaretz that the incident marks new heights for Haredi violence in the city.

"It's sad that they are trying to terrorize the city," Lerner said. "Unfortunately, though, the Haredi violence isn't news anymore. The fact that there is a demonstration, however, that the silent majority is standing up and fighting back, is a major achievement. People are realizing that the time for action is now."

A spokesman for the Beit Shemesh police said the case is currently under investigation.

"We have a few leads," spokesman Shmulik Ben Rubi said.

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Regarding issue #1, it simply reflects negligence and incompetence on their part, and yes, people must take responsibility for their family themselves, and take sensible steps on their own. Gedolim are not responsible for every decision a family makes. We are all ultimately responsible for ourselves. However, a lot of the community takes their cues from the rabbonim and when they send messages of not pursuing this problem seriously, it trickles down to how people respond privately. But even still, it's up to each person to take responsibility, but this leads into exactly what "taking responsible steps" means. For so many people, when they might have to face this issue up close (for instance, when they find out about a suspected rebbe in a school, or an individual in the community) what do you think they do? They almost always turn to their rav! Just like the incest survivor said she did (eventually), and at that point we need to examine how these rabbonim are responding to these issues. And if they fail to respond properly on this issue, they haven't just dropped the ball on it, but rather they are guilty of actual criminal behavior! If you read the first-hand account of the previous incest survivor, it is irrefutable that top-tier rabbonim know about the issue, but nothing was done. And when the cops tried to investigate it they report that the community put up a wall at every single point in the investigation. Where do you think the community got their cues from to act like that?

I am totally disappointed by all the responses to the issue of holding rabbonim accountable. Everyone talks about "we need to take responsibility", but what do you all think that means? Locking yourself in a bunker and having your child be watched 24/7? It means BOTH taking steps to prevent it from happening AND going after those people who would commit such a crime AND those who would brush it under the carpet! Taking steps to prevent it is wonderful and important, but what about when it already happened (despite the preventive measures)? What do you think the people do (or did)? They went to their rabbonim! And nothing happened to those perpetrators! This is not about a personal vendetta against rabbonim. This is about TAKING RESPONSIBILITY!

And it's so clear to me that despite everyone's talk about taking steps to prevent it, no one wants to take the hard steps that might actually solve a big part of this problem; the steps that would create a truly a safer society: getting rid of the actual perpetrators and holding accountable those who would keep quiet about them! Everyone's terrified of doing this because it will make the frum community look so bad when it's revealed how many choshuve people made some really bad calls in regards to this. And no doubt, not just the rabbonim, but (in cases like the previous poster's) the community as a whole would suffer a serious black eye if it was revealed that they stonewalled the police to protect a child molester. So they choose to stick their heads in the sand about those guilty, and make loud noises about "looking forward" and "moving on" and "taking future preventative measures".

Well, good luck to all of you. I sincerely hope your children stay safe in a community where molesters know they don't have to worry about repercussions if they get caught. And rabbonim don't have to worry about any fallout when they try to pressure victims into silence.

Just remember - Your children's safety is your responsibility, and as long as someone prioritizes other factors over their children's safety, they have no one to blame but themselves if god forbid something happens.

I know I probably sound like a hysterical raving lunatic at this point, but it just drives me absolutely mad when I see people faced with this reality and they refuse to admit to themselves what needs to be done. People, wake up! Please! The solution is in your hands (well, at least part of it). What is it going to take for you to realize that your loyalty should be to your children and not to any Rav or to your standing in the community or to your child's shidduch prospects?

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There's been much chattering, fingerpointing, handwringing, garment rending, and weeping since comment 29, but notably, not one Yid, anonymous or not, has "stood up" and said: "I agree, and here's what I'm gonna do", or even, "I disagree and here's why..."

When will we ever learn? Meanwhile, I sit back, and watch the computer.

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That's hardly a comparison. We are talking about beliefs (re. scientific fallibility of Chazal) espoused by the Geonim, Rambam, Rabbeinu Avraham, Maharam Alashkar, Tosafos, Maharam Schick, Rav Hirsch, Rav Herzog, Rav Dessler, and many many dozens of other authorities throughout the ages. You'll still find it mentioned in books published by Artscroll and Feldheim. To say that it is FORBIDDEN to follow their approach is simply ludicrous.

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The private Catholic school system has nearly eradicated abuse. How? By voluntarily enacting its own system of employee background checks; clear, strict, internal rules governing employee behavior and interaction with children, publicly available on the Internet, and the rules include a provision that if an employee commits one act of molestation, no matter how long ago, you are terminated; abuse-prevention training for all employees and volunteers; education on state mandatory reporting laws. We, in the orthodox world, educating more than 200,000 children in the U.S., including 100,000 in New York alone, have nothing like this.

Therefore, we need laws.

As far as the public school system, naturally, they have extensive laws and regulations on this subject. The NYC Department of Education has cut down tremendously on school sexual and physical abuse. I daresay that there is a very dim possibility that any convicted sex offender or other type of felon is working in the public schools today. Everybody must be fingerprinted. That is absolutely not true for our New York yeshivas, unfortunately.

As far as Government intrusion, there are two types: good intrusion and bad intrusion. Protecting children from convicted sex offenders, murderers, violent offenders, drug offenders: that is good intrusion. Please, please, Government, intrude, so I don't have to worry that my child's teacher or the janitor is a convicted something.

There are also some who oppose the RCA Resolution, on grounds of religious liberty. This argument has very little merit. Public health and safety laws are neutral, and do not raise any constitutional religious-infringement issues. It is not a First Amendment violation to regulate the construction of a synagogue building. The Government always has an interest in the security of children, no matter where they may attend school, public or nonpublic.

I also point that many states, with significant yeshiva populations, already do have strong, tough laws governing the nonpublic schools, and they include, California, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts. In the media, we are not reading about yeshiva-based abuse occurring in those states. We are reading about some New York cases, unfortunately, and I would suggest one reason why is because New York has very weak laws governing the nonpublic schools. Yeshiva rebbes get fingerprinted in all those states, and there's nary a protest. Mandatory reporting laws exist in at least some of those states, and I'm not aware of any court challenge, on constitutional religious-infringement grounds. But in New York, where the abuse problem has been shown to exist in some of our yeshivas, there are some who toss a monkey wrench into the legislative process, and protest. I don't get it. Or maybe I do.

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The private Catholic school system has nearly eradicated abuse. How? By voluntarily enacting its own system of employee background checks; clear, strict, internal rules governing employee behavior and interaction with children, publicly available on the Internet, and the rules include a provision that if an employee commits one act of molestation, no matter how long ago, you are terminated; abuse-prevention training for all employees and volunteers; education on state mandatory reporting laws. We, in the orthodox world, educating more than 200,000 children in the U.S., including 100,000 in New York alone, have nothing like this.

Therefore, we need laws.

As far as the public school system, naturally, they have extensive laws and regulations on this subject. The NYC Department of Education has cut down tremendously on school sexual and physical abuse. I daresay that there is a very dim possibility that any convicted sex offender or other type of felon is working in the public schools today. Everybody must be fingerprinted. That is absolutely not true for our New York yeshivas, unfortunately.

As far as Government intrusion, there are two types: good intrusion and bad intrusion. Protecting children from convicted sex offenders, murderers, violent offenders, drug offenders: that is good intrusion. Please, please, Government, intrude, so I don't have to worry that my child's teacher or the janitor is a convicted something.

There are also some who oppose the RCA Resolution, on grounds of religious liberty. This argument has very little merit. Public health and safety laws are neutral, and do not raise any constitutional religious-infringement issues. It is not a First Amendment violation to regulate the construction of a synagogue building. The Government always has an interest in the security of children, no matter where they may attend school, public or nonpublic.

I also point that many states, with significant yeshiva populations, already do have strong, tough laws governing the nonpublic schools, and they include, California, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts. In the media, we are not reading about yeshiva-based abuse occurring in those states. We are reading about some New York cases, unfortunately, and I would suggest one reason why is because New York has very weak laws governing the nonpublic schools. Yeshiva rebbes get fingerprinted in all those states, and there's nary a protest. Mandatory reporting laws exist in at least some of those states, and I'm not aware of any court challenge, on constitutional religious-infringement grounds. But in New York, where the abuse problem has been shown to exist in some of our yeshivas, there are some who toss a monkey wrench into the legislative process, and protest. I don't get it. Or maybe I do.

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How far fetched and roundabout. Interesting thought process, and "assumptions". No, Yardena, this is plain incorrect. You are a parent. What would you do? Take a calm assessment of what your local da'as torah has spoken against in the last six months, determine that they have not included this particular atrocity, and conclude that you will leave your kid there, al pi daas torah? Your words, although well intentioned, are a real stretch, in the fullest sense of the word.

Parents took no action because they took no action, because they were apathetic, distinterested in starting again, disinclined to "get involved". No need to fabricate philosophical meanderings in order to somehow tie in daas torah to individual decisions of parents. It's not straight, and it's not true.

One additional point: You wrote: "But please realize that in every charedi community I’ve lived, any decision, whether its choice of school, spouse, apartment, buying your child’s first bicycle, signing up a child in music chug, etc. will immediately be followed by the question “Did you ask a rav?” If the answer is no, then any bad decision you made or bitter luck you have will mostly be attributed to not having asked a rav."

Although I know I've heard people speak this way before on the internet, I'm taken aback at such experiences. I am a frum, Yehivish individual (don't call myself Chareidi, because that is a term specifically coined for communities in E"Y) and have lived in a number of frum, Torah oriented communities, such as Lakewood and Brooklyn. I have never, ever, heard such talk, except in the most serious situations that need "big shoulders" in the decision making process. School, spouse, apartment, child activities- no one in my entire neighborhood would dream of asking basic everyday living questions to daas torah- we are not Chassidim, who ask more daily living questions from their Rebbe (not to cast negativity on this way of life- it simply isn't the way of life for the average frum household). We ask if we have a big question- child not doing well in school, gets evaluated, want to ask personal Torah leader for some advice regarding the issues. Even for spouse- who amongst any of my aquaintances asked daas torah if they should date so and so or say "Yes" to ploiny? No one, except those in serious situations needing guidance- personal problems that may impede marriage etc.

So I don't know your community, but for the litvish, yeshivish communities in the Tri State area, parents do NOT ask Daas Torah which music class their child should attend, bicycle to purchase, apartment to rent or buy, or even spouse to marry, in normal situations. Some of these questions ARE asked by Chassidim who closely follow a Rebbe, but I don't think you are talking about that community. It is upsetting to see you portray the non chassidic frum world so wrongly, because it gives a completely false impression to those who are not so familiar with our communities, and makes frum people appear silly and ridiculous.

Yehoshua,

I agree with you completely. Where is our community involvement? And I am talking about myself as well. We all need to overcome our inertia. To the poster who mentioned Bais Yaakov and Shmiras Haloshon, stating that if not for the Rabbonim's involvement it wouldn't have happened, this is missing just the main key to those movements!! And that is, that LAY PEOPLE have done the legwork, as Askonim are supposed to do, put in sweat and tears and hours upon hours of slogging work, and went to Rabbonim for guidance and/or approval, which they wholeheartedly received. Must the Gedolim do everything for you? It was Mr. Rothschild from Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation who had a huge impact on Shemiras Haloshon, and made such a difference in our observance of this mitzva. Did he say, where are the Gedolim? Why aren't the "Gedolim doing anything"? Of course not. Because he is a grown up. An intelligent adult who doesn't expect his Tatty to do every last thing for him. If you need something done, do it! Why the whining that the "Gedolim aren't doing anything?" If you feel, after you have put a program together, that you need the Gedolim's approbation, meaning if what you are doing involves halacha that is not clear cut, or hashkafah, then by all means, bring your hard work, sweat and tears to the Gedolim, obtain their advice and backing. It's not so clear at all that a venture regarding molestation needs or is in the realm of Rabbinic approbation, (I would say it needs a doctor and an attorney) but in case you think it does, perhaps some people are not convinced about the Mesirah issue, then by all means, bring it to the Rabbinic leaders. And then go implement your program. Be a doer, like Mr. Rothschild, like Sara Shenirer, like other DOERS who don't shirk their duty. Rabbi Horowitz is one such doer. And all some others can do to help him and join hands is whine that about their leadership? What shaychus to your involvement? What shaychus to your responsibilities?

We need more people like Yehoshua, Sherree, Elliot Pasick, and other DOING-minded mature individuals. Others I guess will continue to whine that "it's the Gedolim's fault" for each difficulty in our lives. Amazing how the respect for Gedolim has hit rock bottom for some, and yet when there is a serious issue in which they themselves should take action, suddenly it's the Gedolim who need to take the action, take care of the problem, and do all the things that we should be doing ourselves. Convienent Gedolim. The very same people who mock the Gedolim's decisions on other matters, suddenly decide that it is the Gedolim who should be taking action on every matter that confronts us. Suddenly, where is the "leadership". As if they would listen to this leadership on any matter that infringes on their own daled ames and sense of independence. Suddenly, we become helpless and handwringing- it's all Tatty's fault. Suddenly, the Gedolim have become "our Gedolim", when it suits us, as punching bags. We could ignore them all our lives, but when there is an issue that requires US to get involved, to take risks regarding OUR involvement, to have courage and associate our names with action regarding this matteer, suddenly, we discovered we have leaders. And we have decided exactly how this leadership should take place. We have become a sad lot of "experts". I give a bracha to people like Rabbi Horowitz, Sherree, Elliot Passick, and others like them, that they should succeed in thier efforts, succeed in bringing others onboard, and stay firm and focused even in the face of whining and finger pointing- to rise above it and take action while others look for excuses.

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There is growing awareness but it has to be given direction. Lastr year a reporter in an Orthodox Jewish newspaper wrote a lengthy article about abuse based on a simple question. If your organization, shule or school receives a complaint of abuse what process exists to investigate the allegation? Few gave any answer and a year later they still have no process. Yosef Blau

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