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Here is my comment: http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=897&ThisGroup_ID=262&ID=Newest&Type=Article

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Yakov

PS Please use your first name or at least a screen name (so I can know who to credit for thenext column :)

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I sent you an email just now which came back as mailer daemon. is this: yh@rabbihorowitz.com

no longer your email address?

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There is great hesitation, sometimes resistance to addressing issues that involve the pnimius of a talmid. There is an advantage to this. If a rebbe or teacher were to broach deep issues, they may easily land in a position that is way over their heads. Even those who enter chinuch with a more extensive range of training probably do not qualify as therapists. If serious issues are identified, what should they do next? For this reason, having someone on school staff or at least affiliated who has such qualifications is of great value.

My next comment may sound radical, but here goes. There are some children who approach their rebbeim and teachers with emunoh questions. All too often, these questions are not accepted as basis for discussion. Sometimes the questions are shrugged off and avoided. At other times, and I have witnessed this occur several times, the reaction is one of horror – where this is taken to indicate that the child is flirting with apikursus. This child is then singled out as a potential poison for the rest of the student body, and efforts are made to ostracize and eventually expel the student. I expect mechanchim to rabidly deny this, but I have several acquaintances that were the victims of this. I judge these situations quite negatively, and my conclusion is usually something to the tune of, “The rebbe/teacher probably does not know the answer him/herself, and casting this as a problem of the student is much easier than admitting that he/she does not know the answer.” How many of us can instantly respond to the famous Rambam’s question about yediya-bechira? Has the apikores issue been analyzed thoroughly that we can use the conclusion to reject a talmid, or is there haste in doing this?

With the current approach to chinuch being the educational version of group therapy, it becomes less viable to focus attention on the internal experience of an individual talmid. Even the best rebbe/teacher will struggle with this. Examine how much of what is administered as discipline has its basis on group conformity versus true chinuch. While that is not intrinsically bad, it does indicate what is considered ikar versus tofel.

In earlier posts, I described the ideal mechanech as a surrogate parent, taking an interest in what the child wears, physical discomforts, worries, state of mind, etc. This is a mammoth task, and it is no wonder it is resisted. Busy schedules for students and teachers do not make this easier. Getting involved in the nebulous issues of a student’s beliefs and state of mind is quite a challenge.

I have also referred many times to the most important goal of chinuch – to inspire the children to want to continue the Torah derech. The motivation we create or kindle outweighs the importance of data, even Torah data, that we feed them.

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In addition, I have found that when a school system integrates the actual practice of mitzvos through the growing years instead of just listing and memorizing them, they do become one of the basic factors that mold the charachter of that individual. Scranton Yeshiva for example, Bais Moshe, is known for the teaching of midos tovos to their bochurim. They all follow exemplary midos as practiced and modeled by their Rosh Yeshiva, Mashgiach and Rebbeim. They work together as one chaburah no matter what age, they help each other and they help the community. Quick story:

My son came home for an "off" Shabbos in 10th grade (almost 15 years ago) and his brand new extra warm gloves were all muddy and old looking. I asked him what had happened to the brand new gloves I sent him to keep him extra warm in the cold Scranton winters. He replied "Oh they got dirty at the cemetery." "How dirty can they get at a cemetery" I asked him? "Mom, you don't understand, we don't just go to help make a minyan for the community "petirahs", we actually do the shoveling because of "kibud Hames". The Rosh said it would be a busha to let the goyim do it. And we are the only young and strong ones in the neighborhood."

So the talmidim learned two very important lessons here. One was to give back to the community that supports you. And secondly the mitzvos regarding kevuras hames. In my own community I know that if I called a local yeshiva to just try to put together a minyan for Shachris or Mincha for a house of shiva, the response as always is "we can't, it is a bitul zman Torah for the boys!". I never understood how performing this mitzvah could be a bitul zman Torah? I also never understood how the same Mosdos have no problem knocking on that same door on Purim or other times to collect money saying "the community should support the local yeshivas".

So what our children learn in their seforim, in their classrooms, with their noses in their Gemaras, from their teachers and Rebbeim should be put into practice as normal daily routines. That is living the life of a Jew not only learning about it. Does it make sense that a young bochur has his nose in a sefer on the bus or train and a elderly person gets on and is standing nearby? Is he not obligated to get up and give over his seat? Is it more important to read about the mitzvos or actually perform the mitzvah? True story: when I was in my ninth month with my first child (over 30 years ago in BP)I fell in front of my house. I counted at least 5 men that past right by me before one elderly man finally stopped and asked if I needed help. I asked him to please ring the bell and get my hubby who was inside. What does it take to allow a man to speak to a woman in obvious need of assistance? Is tznius more important than the welfare of the woman and baby? Are things taught any differently today? Kids have questions, and these questions such as this one, would get a boy kicked out of class instead of treated with honesty and sincertiy.

This was mentioned before on one of the other threads, there is no reason why a stronger child cannot assist a weaker child with their work to bring the class more into balance instead of just moving the stronger kids forward while the weaker links lag behind and give up. This is practicing being a good Jew instead of competing against each other. I am sure that everyone has heard or read the story of the child in a special olympics race who saw their friend stumble and fall. He was very near the finish line and went back for him, dragging him along so that they came across the finish line together while yelling and smiling "WE won, WE won!" He wasn't competing against his friend, he was trying to do his best, and wanted the same for his friend.

It is the nature of a child to be curious and have questions B"H. This is the sign of a normal child who is interested in what goes on around them. It is a chaval that we stifle curiosity, that we stifle exploration and that we stifle questions because we are afraid of what might be asked or we are afraid to answer. Not every child at every age is looking for a Webster's definition. For instance: when my daughter was 9 years old and I was expecting my 4th child, she asked me how does the baby get out. I took a deep breath not knowing what to say and began "Hashem makes a neis.." and took another breath before continuing. She said "Oh!" and walked away. That was it. That's all she wanted to know and was satisfied with the answer even though I hadn't completed it. It was enough for her at the time. I didn't lie to her, I didn't plan to withold the true scenario although I really didn't know what I was going to say. I honestly and truly believe that sometimes, and at most critical times in my life, Hashem just puts the right words in my mouth. My point however is that kids need to ask questions and we, the adults in their lives, need to supply them with the answers. Sometimes answers in the simplest forms are all they want and need. Sometimes just being honest and telling them that it is an excellent question and that you don't know the answer, makes them feel smart for thinking of such a great question and that's good enough for them.

When it is very important for them to have a real answer and you don't know it, it is ok to admit that you don't know it, but it is also ok to ask them to write it down and try to find someone that can answer it for them. Validating their question is vital to your relationship. Making an effort to help them find the answer is as well. Even if you send them on the right path to find the answers, such as: try looking in this sefer or search this website. Maybe you can send a note to Rabbi so-and-so, he might know how to answer that.

I think a smart mechanech could keep a record book of such questions from the very beginning of each year and then note the answers that the students discovered. It would be very interesting to see at the end of the year, or even at graduation or for the yearbook, how the students found questions and then went after the answers. It would definitely give them a reason to stick around and find out the ending to these stories.

Lastly, as Dr. Twerski said and the Novominsker Rebbe mentioned in the Mishpocha article "a mechanech must love their students as he loves his own children - like a father loves his child. If he does not have that love, kindness, warmth, compassion, generosity, concern and sensitivity the child will not learn anything from him. He can't possibly teach him Torah because he would not be representing those Torah values appropriately. And by the way, Rabbi Perlow put the onus on the mechanech (no excuse. He said the mechanchim must work with the children and not remove them from the K'lal.)

So, I believe that we bring the Torah to life for our children. We show them how it applies to today as much as it applied centuries ago. We put it into practical application and not just mythical information. Memorization is absolutely necessary to learn brochos, spelling, and tefilos that we say by heart. Everything else is exploration, discussion, disection, perspective, analysis, review, research, point or view, pshat and meforshim.

Never stop the flow of ideas, never stop the thought process. We don't know what kind of brilliant tosfos our children can come up with. After all the Rambam, Rashbah, Rashi, etc. were all once children who grew up to be great talmidei chachamim. The whole point of having a chavrusa is to ping pong ideas back and forth and debate concepts and ideas to realize the different points of view the Gemarah is describing and why the "olam" follows one side over the other.

The greatest of legal minds raise questions and search for answers in defense or prosecution of their clients. The thought processes, the questions, the curiosity of our children are all facets of these priceless sparkling gems.

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The following assessment, made by R. Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg regarding one of the goals of R. Yisrael Salanter’s Mussar movement, is quoted in Artscroll “Reb Shraga Feivel”( pg 196, quoting “Men of the Spirit”, pg 243) as one of the goals of R Shraga Feivel's unique derech, which was one of synthesis and breidkeit(broadness)in machashava and also dealing with questions(he valued certain of R. Dovid Tzvi Hoffman's works, et al) :

“Rejection of the secular Haskalah is not enough...It is the nature of a new cultural trend to seep in through small crevices. Fighting it with prohibitions and excommunications alone will not stem the tide, for the spirit of man is not to be stemmed by mere force.

The suppression of the spirit in itself is of no value. It cuts short spiritual development and results in but a spiritual sterility. The sole defense against a cultural movement breaking in from the outside is the establishment of an opposing cultural force, and the opening of doors to a fresh trend of thought, stemming from the very depth of our Jewish soul”.

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On the other hand, someone who has been relatively insular, and suddenly confronts new ideas, I suppose it can be the equivalent to being thrown into an ice-cold pool. Even when I used to blog more often on relatively known and less fundamental issues, I would probably not want to expose some of my siblings/friends to some of what I wrote, because they are not ready for it.

It is interesting that R. Moshe Wolfson(parenthetically, also a student of R Shraga Feivel) recently spoke to his followers about issues such as evolution. My Yiddish isn't so great, but he seemed to say on a recent tape, that it is inevitable that today, people won't be exposed to certain ideas, even not through the internet, and he therefore discussed them.

Perhaps a related point to this original posting is the issue of shame and embarrassment which could compound any intellectual issue or conflict. How can a rebbe encourage questions and lessen any embarrassment? To what extent would it be appropriate for him to share that he himself might have dealt with such issues, without taking away from his being looked up to, or without "normalizing" conflicts and doubts which are usually kept private(similar issue, by the way, for discussing inyanie kesdusha)?

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Good signs Students often address one another directly

Emphasis on thoughtful exploration of complicated issues - kids learn together with their teachers and as the Mishna says - and the most I learned from from my pupils ' and don't we encourage questions in chumash , gemorrah etc , why not in emunah

Students ask questions at least as often the teacher does

A typical clasroom All exchanges involve (or are directed by) the teacher; students wait to be called on

Emphasis on facts and right answers

Students race to be first to answer teacher’s "Who can tell me…?" queries

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The bigger question is how can we help students to learn? The answer, once again, depends on our objectives. If we are genuinely concerned with students' intellectual and moral development (as opposed to their scores on standardized tests), then it makes sense to do all we can to help them focus on effort rather than ability, to become absorbed with the learning itself rather than being preoccupied with their performance. This, in turn, can be facilitated by the "three C's of motivation": collaboration, choice, and content (of the curriculum)

Collaboration involves more than occasional cooperative learning activities; it means that students feel connected to their peers and that they experience the classroom as a safe, supportive community -- not a place of isolation and certainly not a place where they must compete against each other. Choice means that students are brought into the process of making decisions about what (and how and why) they are learning -- as well as other issues of classroom life. Finally, to raise the question of content is to challenge the assumption that students are indifferent about their schoolwork because they are not sufficiently "motivated" (or, from another point of view, because they simply have low self-esteem). The real problem may be that the work itself is not meaningful, engaging, or relevant.

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The Maggid was walking on a road with his gabbai, and came to a location where there was a bridge spanning a small river. At the foot of this bridge, he saw a young woman trembling and crying. He approached her, asking what the problem was. She related that she was from the village on the other side, and was frightened to cross the bridge. Her children were at home, and the conflict of her instinct to return to her children and the bridge phobia was overwhelming. The Maggid asked her to follow him across the bridge. She told him she had tried it already, and the anxiety was too great to bear. The next offers, to walk in front of him or beside him produced the same responses. He then lifted her in his arms, carried her across the bridge, and placed her on the ground. She thanked him and ran home. After an hour of walking in silence, the gabbai asked the Maggid, “Rebbe, you held a woman in your arms. How could you?” The Maggid answered, “I put her down an hour ago.”

The moment required action, and halacha accounts for this. The breach of tznius is later. Interesting lesson, regardless of the source.

I was pleased to see specific mention made of the Scranton yeshiva, my alma mater. I was there in the earliest days of the yeshiva, and the theme was always lilmod ulelamed lishmor vela’asos, making application of what was learned. This theme was evident in everything, and the hanhala was unanimous in implementing this. My hakoras hatov to this yeshiva continues without interruption, as I have watched this derech continue without interruption.

A final thought. There is a saying (I cannot quote a source), “Fun a kasha shtarbt men nisht.” (From a question one does not die.) This is an important part of chinuch. We will have questions that do not have perceptible answers. Do we understand the workings of every appliance or gadget we use, or do we use them despite our unsatisfied curiosity? Pursuing answers is a valuable exercise, and often constitutes a fundamental part of our Torah learning. Any mechanech or parent can guide a talmid or child to accept the question as yet deserving an answer or to engage in the exploration of a solution. Even “I don’t know” can be an answer.

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Keep writing, and some will awake

Tizku Limitzvos

A big fan from Lakewood

Tzvi

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Acharon, Acharon Chaviv: Hakaras HaTov to Mori VeRabi, the Bostoner Rebbe SHIT"A, for recommending them. Our Tfilos for a Refuah Shleimah for the Bostoner Rebbe SHLIT"A: HaRav Levi Yitzchak HaLevi Ben Sarah Sasha.

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(I know some of you will ask, then why don't I adopt a Sliflkin-like approach now, but that is beyond the scope of this forum).

Of course, there is the possibility that Slifkin material may have triggered my loss of faith earlier. I highly doubt that. Childhood and adolescence are trusting times when the mind & viewpoints are easily molded and impressionable.

With the banning of Slifkin (and an insistence on an Earth that is less than 6,000 years old), the Chareidi community may have painted itself into a corner.

The way I see it either teach Slifkin material or lock down completely, meaning no college, libarary, newspapers & Internet access. It's a whole new world.

Tayere Baal Habos.

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Every one of their arguments has an answer: (1) During the year of the Mabul (the Great Flood), there were cataclysmic changes; (2) Before the Mabul eroded the nutrient-laden upper layers of soil, people and animals were much larger than they are now; (3) According to Medrashim, HASHEM created other worlds and destroyed them before He created this world. Etc., etc.

I was told that HaRav Moshe Meiselman SHLIT"A (a leading Talmid Chacham with a doctorate from MIT) has written convincing papers proving that Slifkin is all wrong!

Accordingly, I am confident that our Gedolim are absolutely correct in banning Slifkin's writings, which amount to UNintentional Apikorsus that can poison the minds of innocent Jews. I truly regret that you and others have been influenced by them.

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Setting aside my personal views, here's why your position is short-sighted. I won't get into details about Evolution, because I'm not qualified and because this is not the proper forum. I too have a bachelor of science but that does not make me qualified to "paskin" on Evolution, since that's not my subject. Is it yours? Have you been exposed to recent evidence and personally evaluated it?

It is well known that the vast majority of the scientific community disagrees with you. It's clearly not "Rubbish". Labeling it as such does not make it so. What you are doing is simply painting yourself into a corner. You may choose not to believe in the theory of evolution, but the evidence for it is quite persuasive. Answers, such as effects of the Mabul, do not stand up to scrutiny of other scientific disciplines. The scientific community brought you miracles cures, heat transplants, computers, Men on the moon, etc. If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what the same scientific community states, that is your perogative. But if so, I suggest, you shut the computer now and sit yourself down in the Bais Medrash. Because if you don't remove the exposures of the secular world, it's only a matter of time and you too might be convinced of Evolution. And this is due to the strength of Evolutionary theory, new evidence almost daily, and the increasing convergence of multiple scientific disciplines.

Similarly, you take it upon yourself to Paskin on behalf of all Yiddishkeit, when that is also not the case. A large percentage of the Orthodox world, excluding the Chareidim, does give credence to Evolution.

While you may personally feel otherwise, and that is your perogative, the worst thing you can do, is not tackle the subject head on. Because our children and grand-children will be exposed to the new Walmart ideas of this world.

And if they don't get Slifkin-like answers, preferably in advance, I'll have lot's of company.

That is, unless you keep them off the Internet, out of college and out of the library.

Tayere Baal Habos.

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BTW, You stated: "I truly regret that you and others have been influenced by them."

You need to re-read my original comments, I never said I was influenced by Slifkin. On the contrary what I said was " I believe that in all likelihood, had I been "innoculated" with Slifkin-like material, I probably would still have my faith now."

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Furthermore, even the advocates of evolution still label it a "theory." According to Webster's dictionary, a "theory" is an UNPROVED assumption, or a PLAUSIBLE explanation. How dare we allow a mere human theory to challenge the Word of the Ribono Shel Olam (the ULTIMATE TRUTH) that He created the Universe in six days! If we did not get the message at the beginning of Chumash Breishis, He repeated it in the Aseres HaDibros [Parshas Yisro] and in VeShamru [Parshas Ki Sisa]: "Ki Sheises Yamim Asa HASHEM Es HaShamayim VeEs HaAretz..."

The distinguished Rosh Yeshiva HaRav Moshe Meiselman SHLIT"A (who has a doctorate degree from MIT)has called Natan Slifkin a well-meaning, but misguided, young (immature) zoologist.

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She says she's been thinking about it for a year. And she has come to these questions on her own.

Why is god killing everyone just because they complain in the midbar. Is god a barbarian? why do her teachers who seem so enlightened not address the mass mandated murders? Why are they so blase about it, glossing over the preverbial elephant in the room.

She is going to ask her rabbi/guidance counselor in school. Lets hope he has some good eitzos and doesnt ostracize her.

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You're right. And it does not. Evolution indeed says nothing about God or religion. That you select a specific religious interpretation, even though there are other acceptable ones, is what is causing conflict. The fact that your religious intrepretation conflicts with well established scientific principle, is how you cause people to lose faith in religion. That's exactly how people set out on a search that brings them face to face with other issues.

BTW, the theory of Relativity is also "just" a theory. Heliocentricity, is also "just" a theory. As you may well know, science never declares anything to be proven, because new data may come in to change the equation. Scienctists consider Evolution to be a Fact just as sure as you rely on an airplane lifting off the ground when it reaches the proper speed.

You complete miss the point Rabbi Horowitz is making.

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Sorry to jump in here, and I'll leave the dialogue to the two of you, but with a science background, I had to correct this- the statement above is simply untrue. We often have, "the evidence has empirically proven that..." or other terminology. Science is very careful regarding which concepts are categorized as theory, and which proven. We don't have a theory of a round earth, theory of O2 level on the moon, and theory of how many light years to some celestial entitities. What is observable and measurable (according to scientific criteria and measurement), simply is. Science relies heavily upon what is observable and measurable, and when it isn't, particularly when there are large gaps in the body of knowledge, the concept remains a theory.

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[1] "Divrei HaRav VeDivrei HaTalmid, Divrei Mi Shomeeim?". When the Ribono Shel Olam declares repeatedly in the Torah HaKedoshah that He created the World in six days, how can we believe mere humans who hypothesize that it took millennia and that it evolved on its own? HASHEM could have created everything in a millisecond if He had so wanted!

[2] "Bari VeShema, Bari Adif!" What is definite is suprior to what is not.

Here we have the Ribono Shel Olam Himself in the Torah HaKedoshah -- the Ultimate Source of Truth -- declaring REPEATEDLY that He created the Universe in six days and some people (many of them agnostics, some anti-religious) questioning it; it is obvious Whom we should believe!

In my humble opinion, evolution is the modern Avodah Zarah!

I agree with our distinguished host, Rav Yakov Horowitz SHLIT"A, that the RAMBAM's approach is the preferred one today: Informing our children and students will help them make the appropriate decisions.

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would you agree? for a satire on the theory of gravity read here: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p67.htm

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This is a very good opening for a discussion. Your daughter picked up just one side, one perspective of the relationship. Maybe the first point of the discussion would be:

"That's an interesting question, why do you see it that way? Can you explain that a little bit?" Have her go into it, to hear her perspective and point of view. That is a very superficial judgment but of course you can't say that to a 14 year old, you have to talk it out so that she comes to that conclusion on her own. In a discussion with her, exploring her own question and how she came to her own conclusion she might find her own answer by means of viewing the situation from all perspectives and points of view. In other words:

"What were they complaining about? Is that really why Hashem killed them off? Was there another reason, could there have been something else going on? What do you think Hashem's perspective was? Let's review the situation from the begining up to that point and see what was happening and how they got into that predicament......"

You see #20, the teacher might not take out the time to spend with your daughter to do this, or she might. But you certainly can. Your daughter has a belief that Hashem was mean and punitive. She might have missed part of the story or part of the explaination. She is harboring resentment, or maybe she heard this statement from someone else and she picked up on it. You however, can teach her how to go back and analyze what was actually going on? Does Hashem do things for no reason? Would complaining be a good enough reason for such an "onesh"? There is something missing to the story, lets go back and figure it out.

There is a relationship going on here between Bnei Yisroel and Hashem. Hashem is doing all these amazing things for them, all these miracles in Mitzraim, taking them out of Mitzvraim, performing more amazing miracles for them in the midbar and so on...

We can use our children's questions to help them strengthen their connections and their own relationships. It is a wonderful and rare opportunity that our children share their questions with us rather than save them only for their mechanchim. If we can help them find their answers and bring them closer to Hashem we also bring them closer to us and teach them that they can come to us with any question they may have.

How do you feel about that? Is that something you can tackle? Hatzlocha, Sherree

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That an apple drops is a fact. Why it falls is explained by a hypothesis or Theory or Gravity. That the earth is round is a fact. (Humanity had that fact wrong for many years.) Why the Earth orbits the sun is a theory.

So both facts and theory can, at least in theory, be wrong. That Science uses the word theory to describe Evolution, does not minimize it's high regard in the science world.

Anonymous, what you are doing is using an appeal to Rabbinical Authority, not logic, to bolster your arguments. I'll repeat, as Rabbi Horowitz seems to be saying, this appeal to Rabbinical authority in matters of science, will no longer work in an open minded society.

Go with the Rambam.

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Questioning Parent, now I am posing the question directly to you. Is that really why they got killed, just because they complained? Is that how YOU see it?

"What about Moshe commanding the yidden to kill midianites (women and children) and bring back young girls as slaves to be parcelled out? Will you say, lets see moshe point of view?"

No actually it was Hashem's point of view and I am very surprised with your tone and your question. Are these coming from your daughter or are these actually your questions? Here is a little research I did to help answer your question, an example of what I was trying to relay to you:

The Midianites conspired with the Moabites to curse Israel (Bamidbar 22:1-7). When the curse was turned into a blessing instead (24:10-11), the Moabite and Midianite women agreed to seduce the Israelite men and in doing so entice them to serve their idols (25:1-9, 31:15-16). The Israelites who fell prey to this and engaged in idolatry were also held responsible, and were executed (25:4-5). Virgin women and young girls were obviously not participants in this, so they were spared.

A further outline of the entire story:

1. For the relevant background see Bamidbar 22, 23, 24, Bamidbar 25:1-3, and Breishis 15:16 2. The Midianites were half brothers to the Israelites and were on friendly terms 3. Midianite leaders join with Moab to incite against Israel (Bam 22:4). The Midian princes had also allied with Sichon king of the Amorites (Yehoshua 13:21) 4. Midianite leaders together with the Moabite leaders: Sent for Balaam to curse Israel (Bam 22:5-7), however, Hashem instructed Balaam to bless Israel. Balaam was afraid to curse the people that Hashem loved because of Hashem’s wrath and punishment. 5. So when their attempts to curse Israel failed, Moabites and Midianites women seduced Israel to idolatry and immorality at Peor (Bam 25:1-18) as a means to get God to judge his own people negatively. 6. God first judged his own people severely and 24,000 died 7. The reason for killing the Midianites was given in (Bam 25:17-18), "because they treated you as enemies". 8. The reason for killing the women is given in (Bam 31:15-16), they seduced the men into idolatry and immorality resulting in a plague in which 24,000 died. 9. As for the boys they would have died anyway because there would be no one to look after them. Given the option of a slow death from hunger and thirst, clearly God chose the merciful option of a quick death. Had he allowed them to live among the Israelites they would take revenge later when they became men. If you're going to do the job do it right. The Moabites would probably have used the boys for child sacrifice (by fire) as was their practice. 10. He was clearly merciful to the 32,000 virgin girls, after all he spared their lives. 11. Adultery & rape was punishable by death so the virgin girls were offered after a month’s time of mourning for their own parents, to the Jewish men as “Wives” not slaves. And wives were honored and respected. 12. Prostitution was against the law 13. In the context of ancient Near East (ANE) bronze-age culture of ~1500 BC it was either the fledgling nation of Israel or the Midianites. The future of God's chosen people was at stake. The bottom line is that the Midianites were on friendly terms with the Israelites but the leaders joined with those who wanted to destroy Israel and treated them as enemies, instead of allowing them to pass through their land peacefully. The children suffered because of bad decisions made by the parents. Something common to all life.

"It simply doesnt cut it with kids who are exposed to our society."

Actually after having many such conversations with many young adults in our society you would be very surprised what "cuts" it. Firstly the time we as adults take to validate their questions and talk it out with them. Secondly actually "listening to understand" their point of view and thirdly analyzing the situation to see if there is something more we need to understand about it. As they say “knowledge is power” and the power of this knowledge can help any child understand the Torah and build a stronger c

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"All woman conspired." Doesnt that seem a little odd? Dont you think some woman didnt? Is that your experience? All the woman of a nation get together and conspire? And lets say they did. Dont you think the Jews could take some responsibility and be faithful to their women and wives? Oh no, we dont expect people to take responsibility when the evil woman conspire.

What you call nicely termed as "spared" is actually a life of sexual slavery. If you look at that way, do you see why youre explanations dont resonate?

Maybe the better answer is we simply CANT understand this and any attempts to reconcile it with our kids current moral zeitgeist is doomed for failure.

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dont u think its possible people could take care of them like all societies do with the underpriviliged. I bet you believe we should slaughter all the homeless because they are living miserable lives.

You really should listen to what you write. no wonder our children are becoming at risk.

Youre explanations are like nails across a blackboard for a kid growing up in our society. Maybe teenagers living in closed societies like the Taliban may like your approach. But kids exposed to our world are not buying such explanations. I really hope my daughters guidance counselor doesnt use your approach.

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Questioning parent, acutally if you read what I wrote you, you might try to understand more, as teens do when I converse with them.

I specifically listed for your benefit the reasons why this was not possible and not true. They were definitely not saved for that purpose. If my answer was not satisfactory for you as an adult, you have the option and I assume the common sense to look it up yourself and read mephorshim and explainations on this issue.

It was explained as it was figured out that the "women" who were saved were all under the age of 12. It was further explained that Yiddin were on a higher madreigah and followed the Laws that Hashem gave them. The onesh that Hashem meted out for those who indulged in sexual misconduct was "kores". Yiddin who saw for themselves the wrath of Hashem who punished those who took this lightly feared Hashem.

The men were told to go outside the camp with their captives to purify themselves, prepare their captives for mourning of their families and then purify themselves (all of them captive women as well) before entering the camp again.

Questioning Parent, are you saying that this was all said and done in preparation for sexual slavery? No, it was done to bring these women into K'lal Yisroel after allowing them time to grieve for their loss, and then to be respected wives of the Jewish men.

When it is explained to teenagers from all these perspectives, it gives them actual answers to their questions. Hashem did not just wipe out a nation, nor did he hand over young girls for sexual favors. Everything Hashem did through Moshe was done for the purposes of Kovod Hashem and the protection of Am Yisroel.

If you personally choose to see this differently then I doubt you are the one that can help your child with these issues. It is better left to professional counselors who deal with Kids-at-risk. From my experience with teens, when kids are truly bothered by emunah and betochon issues they want real answers and explainations. When they get them, they want to understand them, not to just continue arguing with you, because they desperately want to hold onto their faith. They are looking to keep their connection with Hashem, that is why they are asking questions that bother them. When you take the time to help search for answers and delve into the story and not just give them the answer that "Hashem can do anything he chooses to", they feel validated for their questions and feel important for being able to ask a question and be able to "defend" Hashem with an actual and factual answer. They need this.

Please for one minute do not doubt that I know what our children are going through, what they need or how they feel. I have spent countless hours in long discussions sometimes even at 2 and 3 in the morning, whether in person or via internet messaging and emails, discussing kids questions on faith and why Hahsem does what he does.

I fully accept that your daughter had questions about the Yiddin being punished for complaining and as I showed you very simply there is a way to discuss it with her.

This other issue is a question that I believe you are testing me with. I am not sure if you truly don't understand what happened at that point in the Torah, or if you just wish to play games with me. I am not a Chumash teacher and am not going to have a dialogue with you here on what happened in the Midbar. If you have further issues with this story, I suggest you give yourself a gift of an hour or two and do some research on your own.

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You obviously don't know anything about me or my work. So I choose not to be offended by your very pointed comment because of your lack of information. However I would like to point something out to you, in your anger and frustration you are missing many points I am trying to make to you. You are a parent in the parsha who is going through their own tzoris so I am not going to go barb for barb with you. I understand the pain.

Teens are very smart and many of them don't choose to do what you did here just plain ignoring the answers given and taking words out of context. Many will, but then we the adults who are working with them, will continue working with them until the child is comfortable and satisfied in the answers they find as their relationship grows with the person they are working with.

As a mentor and coach I work with both kids and their parents and in most cases the parents are much more difficult to bring back into the relationship for their unwillingness to bend and look at other perspectives, not the kids. So again, if a child has the same questions you raised I would spend hours, weeks even months with them until they were satisfied with what we learned together and the answers we uncovered. But as an adult, I believe you can find the answers you need without making choizek of the people who tried to respond. Maybe someone else would like to have a dialogue with you that would be more satisfactory to your needs, or maybe you just want someone to agree with you and satisfy your need to be right.

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MAYBE THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE ANSWERS THEMSELVES BUT IN THE WAY YOU CHOOSE TO PERCEIVE THEM AS "PAT" ANSWERS.

Its the answers that are the problem. its all fine and good to say that the yidden were on higher madreigos and therefore everything was lshem shamayim. but in rings hollow to the ears of children exposed to what society is really like.

BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID AT ALL, AND IT IS NOT WHAT I SAID TO THE CHILDREN IT IS WHAT I SAID TO YOU WHO ASKED THE QUESTION. I SAID THAT THE YIDDEN WERE ON A HIGHER MADREIGAH AT THE TIME AND THEY HAD AN ACTUAL FEAR OF G-D. THEREFORE, KNOWING THE ONESH KEPT THOSE WHO WERE STILL ALIVE AND NOT PUNISHED, THOSE WHO DID BELIEVE IN HASHEM AND THE TEACHING OF MOSHE RABBEINU, FOLLOWERS OF THE COMMANDMENTS AND THE LAWS AND RULES SET FORTH BY HASHEM. WHICH IN ITSELF KEPT THOSE "CAPTIVES" SAFE AMONG THEM.

In addition, you feel it neccesary to put a spin on why jews killed the boys. why dont you accept that the boys were evil? it obviously bothers you they were killed, so youve justified it to your self that we were doing the boys a favor. Just like you think taking girls from their homeland, parents and relatives and forcibily marrying them off to jews, who by the way already had wives. So these very jews who got tempted, who didnt take responsibility for their own actions get rewarded with even more woman!

MY DEAR FRIEND, YOU HAVE A VERY UNUSUAL "SPIN" ON THIS ENTIRE PORTION OF OUR HISTORY. IN ADDITION LET ME POINT OUT TO YOU VERY CLEARLY AND CONCISELY THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT I THINK, YOU ONLY KNOW IF YOU WISH TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE TRUTH OF WHAT I WROTE, EXACTLY WHAT I SHARED WITH YOU AND EXACTLY THE WORDS I DID SAY, NOT THE WORDS YOU QUOTED ME AS SAYING.

Do you see that what Im saying makes sense if you have current values? You havent provided a satisfying explanation, except to say we did it for holy purposes. But saying so doesnt make it believeable. If people were compassionate they would of left the girls alone. Why bring them back? I know God said so. Ok so youre saying what Im saying, we cant understand why god does what he does.

NO, NO, AND AGAIN NO! YOU AND ARE ABSOLUELY NOT SAYING THE SAME THING. I AM SAYING THAT I GIVE TEENS MORE CREDIT THAN YOU DO AND THIS DISCUSSION WE ARE HAVING IS NOT A DISCUSSION BETWEEN AN ADULT AND A TEEN WHO IS LOOKING AND SEARCHING FOR AN ANSWER NOT AN ATTITUDE, SUCH AS YOU ARE TAKING ON YOURSELF. AGAIN I AM NOT A CHUMASH TEACHER SO I AM NOT ABOUT TO GO INTO A MILLION MEPHORSHIM FOR YOU, YOU AS AN ADULT CAN LOOK IT UP YOURSELF RATHER THAN ARGUE PSHAT WITH ME. HOWEVER, THE ANSWER THAT I FOUND WHEN I DID DO THE WORK FOR YOU, WAS THAT AFTER THE ADULTS WERE KILLED, LEAVING THE CHILDREN TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES AGAINST THE NATURE OF THE LAND AT THAT TIME WAS A DEFINITE CRUEL PUNISHMENT FOR INNOCENT CHILDREN. AFTER PARENTS, MEN AND WOMEN, WERE KILLED OFF THERE WAS NO ONE TO FEND FOR THEM AGAINST BEHAMOS AND BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BY NEIGHBORING NATIONS. HAD THE BNEI YISROEL LEFT THEM ON THEIR OWN, THEY WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE BEEN RAPED AND TAKEN INTO SLAVERY BY NEIGHBORS. THIS WAS COMMON AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY. YOU CANNOT TALK ABOUT THAT STORY AND MIX TODAYS ENVIRONMENT WITH ALL THE MODERN TECHNOLOGY AND CONVENIENCES WITH THOSE TIMES AND WHAT WAS NORMAL BACK THEN. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IDOL WORSHIPERS WHO BROUGHT HUMAN SACRIFICES TO THEIR IDOL GODS. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST ANIMALS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SACRIFICING PEOPLE. GOT THAT? IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CORRELATION WITH THEN AND NOW, YOU HAVE TO FIRST EXPLAIN THAT THESE THINGS THE GOYISH NATIONS WERE DOING ON A REGULAR BASIS WERE INHUMANE AND UNACCEPTABLE IN TODAYS DAY AND TIME. EXPLAIN TO THE KIDS WHAT WAS GOING ON THEN AND WHY WHAT HASHEM CHOSE TO DO WAS MORE COMPASSIONATE THAN THE ALTERNATIVE. THESE YOUNG WOMEN WOULD HAVE BEEN RAPED, ENSLAVED, TORTURED AND SACRIFICED BY THEIR NEIHBORS WHICH WAS COMMON FOR THAT ERA. INSTEAD HASHEM COMMANDED NOT SUGGESTED BUT COMMANDED THAT THEY BE GIVEN 30 DAYS TO MOURN THEIR LOSS, THEN PURIFY THEMSELVES TO BE TAKEN INTO K'LAL YISROEL WITH RESPECT, KINDNESS AND COMPASSION. IT WAS QUITE COMMON FOR YOUNG GIRLS OF THAT AGE TO BE MARRIED OFF YOUNG, AND THOSE THAT WERE TOO YOUNG WERE ACTUALLY CARED FOR AMONG THE YIDDIN AS WAS EXPLAINED IN THE MEPHORESH.

IN ADDITION I NEVER SAID THE YOUNG BOYS WERE EVIL AT THAT TIME, THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS, THE EXPLAINATION THAT I FOUND WAS THAT WHEN THEY GREW TO BE MEN, THEY WOULD TURN ON BNEI YISROEL WHICH WOULD BE THE NATURE OF MANKIND AND THEREBY THE NECESSITY TO EITHER KILL THEM OFF THROUGH HASHEM'S SHELICHIM OR HAVE YOUNG BOYS DIE IN THE WILDERNESS BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T CARE FOR THEMSELVES. THE MORE HUMANE THING AT THE TIME ACCORDING TO THE EXPLAINATION WAS TO KILL THEM OFF RATHER THAN HAVE THEM STARVE TO DEATH SLOWLY OR BE KILLED BY WILD ANIMALS. AGAIN, YOU CAN LOOK THIS UP FOR YOUSELF AND CHOOSE TO BELIEVE OR NOT TO BELIEVE ANY OR ALL OF THE MEPHORSHIM YOU FIND. THAT IS WHY THE MEPHORSHIM ARE THERE, TO EXPLAIN THE PSHAT.

AND THIS MY FRIEND ENDS THIS DISCUSSION FOR ME. I HAVE LEARNT RIGHT HERE ON THIS BLOG, THAT WASTING MY TIME GETTING INVOLVED WITH SOMEONE WHO CHOOSES TO TWIST MY WORDS, MISQUOTE ME, TELL ME WHAT I THINK AND SO ON, IS A PURE WASTE OF MY TIME AND ENERGY. MORE SO MY ENERGY THAT CAN BETTER BE SPENT HELPING CHILDREN, WHICH I DO WELL. PARENTS HAVE MANY MORE OPTIONS AND RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO THEM TO FIND THE ANSWERS THEY SO DESPERATELY NEED.

SO I WISH YOUR DAUGHTER MUCH HATZLOCHA ON HER CURRENT JOURNEY,AND I TRULY HOPE SHE FINDS THE HELP SHE NEEDS TO GET THROUGH IT WHETHER IT IS HER GUIDANCE COUNSELOR OR SOMEONE ELSE. AND I WISH YOU FIND THE ANSWERS YOU ARE LOOKING FOR, OR MAYBE YOU ARE REALLY NOT LOOKING FOR THEM AT ALL. AT ANY RATE, HATZLOCHA TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

SHERREE

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Lets see, you have this little baby in your arms, and you make a judgement, you assume all the boys will end up evil. So you believe you would feel comfortable killing that little baby? Maybe not. But if you lived back then, you would find it easy to kill him, because youd think youre doing him a favor. After all god commanded it. This is from a god who perfors miracles but just doesnt see fit to perform surgical strikes. Literally throw the baby out with the bath water? This is a god of compassion? And what benefit was it to the jews to perform this act of mercy? Why didnt god send a plague to wipe the boys out? Why did god need the jews to kill babies? Were the jews so barbaric that they were immune to the basic concept of killing a child. And youre worried that these people performed child sacrifice? Arent you literally saying the jews sacrificed all these children for hashem? The very sin you accuse them of one growing up to do? moving on to the jewish child brides. You talk as if in a fairy tale. Lets talk mechanics. Lets see how such a situation would unfold in reality. How exactly did the jews figure out who was or wasnt a virgin? Did they create a huge internment camp and hire specialist who examined every woman and girl? Try to picture this. Is it becoming a horror yet? But the jews did these woman a favor also. After killing all men and boy children and woman non virgins (think about this one, women are on a line, and someone is pointing those who are virgins, to the right and life, those who arent, to the left to be killed?) those who are left are saved by the loving and kind jewish people. And you still havent explained why the very jews who let themselves get seduced and were unfaithful to their woman, get the very thing they did wrong, the very woman who they were desirous of.

Do you see how difficult this all is?

I choose not to share my thoughts with my children. I know the answers you provide simply dont hold up to todays societal values. Id rather say, this is what the meforshim say, and if they dont like that answer, say its simply not explainable to our minds.

Im telling you that a child of mine who went through the right wing yeshiva system hears (she reports this) self righteous teachers who think and say goyim are inferior and express no remorse for a history of killing babies as if it was the decent thing to do (which you have said, regardless of what you think they inevitably would grow up to be, which also happens to be the most ridiculous thing i ever heard as a justification to kill a baby, I think you believe in bechira, dont you) and find it lacking. They cant distinguish between goyim who say jews are inferior and deserve to die, man woman and child, and jews saying the same thing, even if its hashem commandment.

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sherree i hope you simply forgot to turn off CAPSLOCK"

As I said, you don't read what I wrote you just wish to argue. In the title/subject line I clearly wrote I used CAPS for clarity (not for shouting) since I was answering within your own comments to differentiate between your comments and mine. And since your ego is blooming and showing, you proved my point exactly. You are not interested in what I write, or what is right or wrong or in between. You just have a "need" to be right so as far as I am concerned this is not about the initial question at all. This is about your own need to be right and argue with me. This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. You are suspiciously and conspicuously similar to "AK" if not one in the same under a new name.

I did my best to answer what I thought was a sincere question. Maybe I fell right into your web but saw that no one else was responding and therefore tried my best to offer assistance. My mistake, this was definitely a wrong number.

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But it suits you to assign motive to me as well. i guess youre doing what i expected, blame the questioner.

youre the one proposing moral justifications for murder of babies, and cant seem to acknowledge the lack of responisibilty the yidden had in this affair. im the one saying there is no justification that makes sense in our society, regardless of what meforshim said made sense to them.

Have success with your students. I hope you ask yourself if you were confronted by my questions how would you respond. Your used to questions, but not being challenged. What is your reaction to kids who say i dont accept your answer. Yes a meforesh said it, but i dont accept it. What then? What Ive seen is talk about open to questions, as along as the questioner is accepting of the answers. The reason is the answers are assumed true. But what if the questioner doesnt accept them as true?

Kids know when to shut down, in a vey subtle way and make the adult feel that they made headway. The stakes are very high, and the last thing these kids want is to be talked about as potential threats to the other oblivious kids.

good luck to all of us.

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You assume YOU know what I am THINKING what I am Proposing, how I WORK with kids, etc.

My message to you is this and it has nothing to do with the page in history. When someone takes the time to have a sincere dialogue with a child (for your benefit I will explain the word dialogue "when two or more people take turns to both speak and "LISTEN")they appreciate it.

When a CHILD is looking for answers, and if you wish to speak about TEENS I will use an example more of teens in the parsha, when a troubled teen is looking for answers and you take the time to "LISTEN" to their question no matter what that may be, and then validate it by saying that it is a good question and then proceed to find the answers together, whether you supply it for them or not, whether you lead them to others who can answer better, or you work together to search for those answers; it helps them with their relationship with Hashem because TEENS, especially troubled teens are looking for reasons to keep the faith. And I tell you this from experience.

Furthermore, as I said previously but you choose either to skip and not read or ignore. I provided YOU a parent with ONE interpretation that I researched for YOU. I am sure there are many others on this particular question which was YOURS and not a troubled teens'. YOU had the option of looking into the issue further which I suggested. I only offered one explaination that I found.

As I said previously I am not a Chumash teacher and am not going to research a different mephoresh for YOU, you can choose to do it or not or you can choose to accept this one or not. That is up to you. If I HAD BEEN working with a TEEN and that mephoresh was not satisfactory for that child, we would continue to look for answers through other mephorshim and sources.

In addition as I previoiusly mentioned to you, when I work with teens I don't mix centuries. That was then and this was now. Yes the yiddin were on a different madreigah of "good" but the goyim were also on a much higher madreigah of "bad". There were no human rights activists then, there was no moral code that they followed. When explaining something to a child you have to explain the background of the situation, the environment that it is happening in. So when we speak about what happened in the TORAH we have to wrap our heads around the fact that we are speaking of centuries ago when people lived much differently than now.

Yes it might be a hard concept for some, but not for the teens who are learning about Chumash, Navi and history on a daily basis. We are not talking about security systems in one's home at the time, nor are we talking about the simple ability to pick up a phone and call for help or order pizza and take out. None of that was available at the time. If a wild animal charged at you, you couldn't take shelter in a car, there were no cars. So without getting back into this particular part of history, my point is that when speaking about the past history of the Yiddin, one must also explain the era and the differences of both then and now.

As one who chooses to help kids through this rough bump on their road to success, I find that asking them thoughtful questions and open-ended questions helps the thought process and the digestion of the facts. "Could that happen today? What would you think would happen if there was a group of people making "human" sacrifices either of animals or children? What do you think would have been the most humane, moral way to handle the situation considering the variables at that time?"

You see QP, we don't mix the ERAs we compare them. And when we do so, there is a level of understanding that sets in, even if the understanding of the issue is not clear right away, it can be a step by step process. But when I work with a child I am in no rush, we take all the time we need to understand what is bothering them and how to bring it to a successful conclusion.

The problem with your "test" is that I didn't need to be tested. I felt sincere in trying to help you work with your child and "show" you how such dialogues take place where a successful conclusion will follow. For me it had nothing to do with the question or the answer which YOU chose to focus on and pick on. As I said, that wouldn't happen with a teenager because we would be having a dialogue for the purpose of finding answers and not arguing to see who is right. I am saying this from my own experience with teens who have come up with more recent questions like "Where was Hashem through the Holocaust and how can he allow it to happen?"

So I have been down this road with teens before and will continue to help them find their answers. Adults who just wish to argue to come out on top, will never win with kids. I don't and won't tell a child "this is why, this is what I believe happened, and I am right". It doesn't work that way. If I was showing them what I showed you, I would say "this is one explaination I found, what have you found in search for the answer"? Are you satisfied with that or should we keep on looking."

QP, many people could be right. The teacher, the child, the parent, the mephorshim, society as a whole or not. It does not matter who is right or wrong it only matters that the child is satisfied and continues on their road to a successful future.

The first questsion posed will lead to other questions. The search for answers will strengthen the relationship that child has with the person by their side helping them.

What more is there to say. So to re-CAP (pun intended), I am not interested nor will I continue to rehash chumash and mephorshim with you. I gave an example as to how to go about helping a child find answers v'zeh hu.

Hatzlocha to you as well.

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And, btw, how were these gentile captured woman capable of becoming Yiddishe Mammas who could instill aa love of Torah and erliche middos upon marriage to their captors?

I think it is much more honest to state that there will always be questions about certain things.

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I am not going to get back into a discussion about the story. However telling a child there are quesitons that just can't be answered is a shallow cop out that is totatlly unsatisfactory to a child. Of course there has to be an answer, Hashem doesn't do things because of a whim. And telling a child there are things we just don't understand is tasteless and useless to them, a cop out, because is used to cover too many bases. It is the same as saying because "I'm the parent and I said so, or because he is Hashem and he can do what he wants to." Hashem is kind to us, and when he gives an onesh there is responsibility on our side. There are answers and we can find them.

We have spoken about responsibility and accountability before on this forum. We can't just leave things up in the air for kids and just let them believe that Hashem just does things because..... They want solid answers, and they can understand responsibility and accountability if you choose to teach it to them. There is two sides to every relationship. Bnei Yisroel were and still are in a relationship with Hashem. What went on back then was a relationship between Am Yisroel and Hashem. Hahsem didn't do things for no reason at all. There is more to the story than Hashem just punishing and hurting people. It is not one sided and the correlation they make is to their own parents being unfair, judgmental and punitive.

WE have an opportunity to show and teach them Hahem's goodness and kindness, we have an opportunity to show both side's of the coin, both perspectives and also teach them how to seek out answers for themselves. When children open up an avenue for us to build a relationship with them and start a journey for search and discovery together, let's not slam the door in their faces.

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What would the media have said about the events of our Parsha? The Midianites cunningly use their attractive young women to seduce Jewish men and persuade them to participate in idolatrous practices. This incurs G-d’s wrath, and weakens the Jewish Nation’s moral defenses. The response? The utter annihilation of the Midianite nation, men women and children with the exception of 32,000 young girls who were taken captive. Did the response to the Midianites satisfy principles of proportionality? Did only the guilty die? How comfortable would we be today, to defend the Nikmat Midian (avenging of Median) – which, after all, was a Mitvas Hashem (Commandment of G-d)?

Just a word about ' accountability and responsibility' with regard to our children. These words have been used here in the past to justify the use of consequences, punishments etc . Our children will have enough in their lives where the relationship are transactional and economic to be accountable , retribution - punishing a kid for what he did , imposing a consequence does not teach responsibility , just teaches that a person who has power can hurt you if you screw up. We need to support kids to reflect and to autonomously engage in the moral act of restitution” – that is, to figure out how to make things right after doing something wrong.

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Anyway, I think saying I want to be right is ironic, because you cant possibly lend credence or validity to questions that undermine your assumptions. Please remember, believe it or not, teenagers are asking the questions i raised here and more. So dont shoot the messenger. Actually try and answer in a way that makes sense.

Your assumption is that there must be a good reason jews killed midianite babies (all of them), and that jewish men should marry these young girls, even though they gave into their yezter hara, resulting in the slaughter of nearly an entire nation, instead of repenting their sins and taking responsibility for their sins. why is this point ignored? Didnt the jews ever hear of just say no? If woman would of given into midianite men seducing them, what do you think the reaction would be? I dont think the woman would of been given the option to marry the virgin boys.

In addition, to the commentor who tries to draw parrellels to todays headlines. I have no doubt you believe that israel should kill every man woman and child of the arabs. Maybe we should kill every arab in the US as well since they are sympathetic to the arab cause. Oh wait, esav soneh lyaakov. Maybe we should wipe out everyone in the world. When will your blood lust be satisfied? Actualy, you remind me of the president of iran or leader of hezballoh. Please tell me why you get revolted when they say the very same things you do? I must be a liberal because I dont think we should kill babies on purpose, specifically targeting them, and with my bare hands. Sherree seems to be comfortable with this. Hey its only a baby who is going to die anyway. Sheree says one pshat she finds acceptable is that we did these babies a favor. If teenagers buy this logic then go for it.

And what value does God get by having us do this ourselves? Can someone point me to a hashkafa sefer that explains why god would rather us kill babies with our own hands then do it himself. How does killing a baby make us a better person. Someone who wont be psycologically damaged. I wonder what this would do for the shidduch value of a boy who had killed hundreds of babies. Would our beis yakov girls be more impressed by his middos?

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Did you read the article ?

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the proportionality demand by the nations of the world when we in Israel respond to terrorism is part of lack of moral clarity , if we have to target terrorists in civilian areas and there will be civilian casualties , we cannot , innocent children will be killed. The reason is that terrorism is not so bad , you don't have to get rid of it. I think the same moral question is at play here.

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To questioning parent: Please correct me if I've missed something, but I honestly see no problem in your acceptance and sharing that with your daughter. You said that there are some things we'll just never be able to understand. IMHO, that's totally appropriate. It's an important lesson to learn. Certainly, we should study the commentaries and understand as far as we can, but accept, as I understand you, that some things are ultimately unexplainable.

In the recent attack at Mercaz Harav, it was the students who chose to stay in the beis medrish and were in the middle of actively learning Torah that were killed. This attack totally gutted me, emotionally. We can't really explain it. Oh sure, we can quote Shir Hashirim, and assume that perhaps hundreds should've been killed, but Hashem chose "just" eight really beautiful souls to be kaparah on the hundreds. But we can't really understand it and are still left with questions.

I think it shows a high moral level that you and your daughter are so bothered by the killings of children, regardless of their birth nation. (Personally, I always get put off by the Tehillim that talks about smashing Babylonian babies' heads against rocks, and the fact that they did it first to our children doesn't really cut it for me.) Several chachamim have said that you can't really achieve ahavas Yisrael if you mamesh hate the goyim.

Just one other point: In spite of our frumkeit, it's almost impossible to totally detach ourselves from the influence of the Western mindset. Death isn't at all final. (Yes, I know you already knew that.) But it feels like it is. Obviously, Judaism has concepts of life after death, gilgul, gehennim, and even a good afterlife following a tikkun in gehennim.

I know that you and your daughter already are aware of the concepts and my intention is not at all to condescend. Also, I don't mean to be flippant as in: "Hey, let's just kill of the Midainim and wish them better decision-making skills in the next gilgul." But I only mean to re-iterate what all of us already know, and that's that death isn't really death, and there is a whole picture that we can't see and will never have the capability of seeing as long as we are in a physical world.

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I just also want to say that, in general, a good understanding of the ancient cultures surrounding Am Yisrael often helps to understand seemingly mind-boggling passages. Chazal describes surrounding cultures to a degree, and Rabbi Beryl Wein also does this in his history lectures and books. But most teachers/rebbes are going to be pretty clueless.

For example, there is a good chance that the Midian girls would not consider themselves "sex slaves" at all when living amongst the Jews, and may even have been pretty happy once they get over their personal loss and cultural disorientation.

If the Midianim were raising their females to seduce Jews into idol worship, well, that's incredibly exploitative if one thinks about it. First the girl needs to get practice somehow, and then she has to go up to a Jewish man who is a total stranger...that's real sexual slavery. In comparison, a Jewish marriage might've seemed very nice. (By the way, for a more modern look at assimilation after capture, an interview with Mary Jamison is available on the web. She was a white girl in the early 19th century who was captured by Indians who massacred her entire community. Eventually, she became so comfortable that even when offered the oppurtunity to escape or be ransomed from the tribe, she refused. And it wasn't Stockholm syndrome or anything, but genuine acculturation.)

What's more, we know that ancient surrounding cultures practiced child sacrifice. Girls were oftened married off in their preteens (or earlier) and honor killings were considered a fine solution to assaults that weren't the girl's fault. I don't know when female circumcision was introduced to that part of the world, but perhaps that was practiced, too. Even the highly moral Code of Hammurabi didn't reach the ethical level of the Torah. So the Midiani girls might've eventually been very happy.

The other issues mentioned are, of course, harder. What about the men just taking responsibility for their own impulses? What of JN's issue, that of the children receiving not-very-heimish chinuch from Midiani mothers? (Although, if the Jews were on the 49th level of tumah leaving Mitzrayim, and see-sawed spiritually through their desert wanderings, it's perhaps questionable how good a chinuch they would've been able to give anyway. But that doesn't really answer the question.)

I hope everyone takes this is the spirit I intend and not offensively or anything like that.

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The same is attributed in the mitzvah of wiping out Amalek.

There are many ways that each of us look at this tragedy and deal with it. To me, after having this discussion on this thread, what came to mind was just this concept. The murderer was given a job in the Yeshiva, and was trusted among the children. For whatever reason the adults had, whatever reason they had disagreed, when the relationship soured, he chose to murder innocent children. And no doubt if he could he would have wiped them all off the map.

So as the times prescribed then more literally "an eye for an eye", because that was the nature of the civilization. And as you so sensibly explained, other practices of that civilization at the time that were common would never happen in a sophisticated civilized society that we have developed over the centuries. In current times, "an eye for an eye" is tanslated into monetary compensation.

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When comparing the colonial American female captives to male captives, it was discovered that not one female captive under age 21 escaped while about 20% of the male captives under-21 did. MORE THAN HALF of the female captives under-21 VOLUNTARILY stayed while LESS THAN ONE-FOURTH of the boys chose to.

I think this throws some very interesting light on the inherent psychological differences between the genders. By the way, the captives who "stayed" didn't necessarily stay with their captors. Many times, they were ransomed by Canadian Catholics and chose to stay with them. The point is, the boys as a group showed a much stronger impetus to return to their roots, to hang on to their cultural and religious (Protestant) identities, whether they were among whites or Indians.

I'd forgotten about this bit of trivia until you wrote your last post. But the Torah seems indicate this because that parasha seems to imply that transforming the Midian boys for the better was hopeless, but transforming the Midian girls was a definite possibility.

By the way, as for the over age 21 female captives, who were generally married, their percentages for escape, staying, etc. nearly matched male captives in the same age group. While the ages don't match up to the Midian cut-off ages in the parsha, if one looks at it in terms of attachment to and fully adult participation in their birth culture, the over-21 colonial women may be, psychologically speaking, comparable to the over-12 Midian women. If that makes any sense.

Lastly, probably a reason why we don't go around killing people from immoral cultures is:

1)We don't have anyone (a navi) who has heard directly from Hashem whether these people have any hope for future improvement or not. Apparently the many of the Midianim didn't.

2)The Arabs DO have access to a moral belief system, and the Midianim didn't. Meaning, there are Arabs who speak (at great risk to their life) on behalf of true peace and are pro-Israel. These include former terrorists and children of "martyrs". How did they do teshuvah? Most of the world condemns terror, honor killings, female circumcision, wife-beating, child marriages, etc, and the Arabs are aware of this. Likely the Midianim had no one (but the Jews) who would speak against child sacrifice, sexual immorality, etc, because many of the ancient cultures were into that, too.

But back to some of the former issues, certain questions still remain: How can mass acts of bloody violence be spiritually beneficial? What does all that mean?

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Yardena, because we didn't live in that era it is hard to imagine what happened back then. Just as because we didn't live in the era of settling Western United States, or the era of Jesse James, we can't understand exactly what justice meant back then. How come the goyish culture right here in America hung people as punishment? How could they wear the outfits they wore at that time? How could an entire culture such as Mormons take several wives and they all live as sisters? These are all questions that can be raised and it has nothing to do with OUR RELIGION nor with what Hashem did back at the time of the stories in the Torah. There are many, many things that WE don't understand and we don't necessarily have to apply to just what Hashem did or does.

Just as you said, and we discussed at that time different cultures practiced human sacrifices. We at the time gave animal sacrifices. Through the centuries as we developed into more progressive and sophisticated humans, we have given up animalistic practices and exchanged and replaced them with monetary tokens. We can't possibly compare how we evolved into who we are today thanks to the Gedolim and Tzadikim from generation to generation who helped us adjust according to the time they lived in and helped us progress to where we are today.

Can we even fathom cooking wihout our modern kitchens and appliances? Can we picture ourselves managing without a phone or automobile? Different times required different actions and responses. How can we possibly understand what was happening back then? How can we even picture ourselves living that life or what we would do in those circumstances? Imagine being totally "somech" on Hashem and Moshe Rabbeinu for sustenance and safety. Having no other protection but our bitachon and emunah in Hashem? Imagine trusting in Hashem that he will provide in the midbar "manna" to gather and feed your family. You couldn't just hop in the car and go to the supermarket to get what you want. Not only that, but if you wanted it to taste sweet and your hubby wanted it to taste salty, so be it. Hahsem satisfied everyone's needs. Can you even begin to imagine living in such open nissim and niflaos? What an unbelieavalbe era? Of course we can't understand many things. But in order to even begin to understand the minutest of these details, we have to transport ourselves back in time. We have to strip ourselves of all our modern conveniences and living our modern and techno lives. As the Hagodah states we have to imagine "kielu sh'hayinu sham", as if we were actually there, in order to start to understand the situation.

And this Yardena is a lesson that I have taken upon myself all through my life "don't judge anyone until you walked a mile in their shoes". This is the way I was brought up. First put yourself in their place, in their situation, in their lives, in their position and then try to understand what happened and why things were the way they were, or why things are the way they are. It is very, very difficult to try and figure anything out looking at the situation through the windowpanes from the outside in.

Am I making any sense?

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I think you're right about not judging, but I'd still like to understand as far as I can. While there are lots of beautiful and lofty concepts all throughout Tanach, there are also these concepts that QP mentioned, like Jews going out and slaughtering people and it being a mitzvah, which means there must be a spiritual benefit to it. Being that the Torah is eternal, I'd just like to understand what those parts are supposed to mean for today's frum Yid. Hashem knew how we would be today, yet he still chose those parts to be included. The answer to Why? would be very illuminating.

(By the way, I hope you didn't feel I was attacking you in the previous post--I really respect you. I just found it interesting how the captives' reactions support the underlying psychologically premises in that parsha.)