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Now, as far as safety. I'm sure that at your talk tonight you will be discusing "the talk" as you refer to it. This clearly is a parent's responsibility in this day and age when sending a child to camp. It is also very helpful in keeping children safe.

However, there is one talk that nobody seems to want to talk about. And that is between the parents and the camps as well as the parents and their kids' yeshivas. I know of several parents who have opted out of camps for their kids because of concerns for safety. I cannot say they are overreacting even though I do not believe it is necessary to take this step in most cases.

What I do STRONGLY recommend for parents is to talk to the prospective camp about what their policies are regarding sexual abuse. A few camps sent out a letter last summer discussing their approach to the problem. I am not going to describe right now what camp/school policies are most helpful in protecting children. For that you can refer to the handbook of Nefesh for at risk teens, or the Torah Umesorah guidelines for principals.

But unfortunately, I need to say that there are many camps and yeshivas that do not have ANY formulated policy on these issues. If asked they will respond "it does not happen here." I DO believe that any camp or school that uses that statement as an excuse for not putting into place a prevention and safety plan for its children is NOT a safe environment for children. I would in fact defy the readers to find any licensed mental health professional who would disagree with me. I furthermore think that this is mandated by sechel - common sense.

So on an individual level, a parent can know for sure that a camp or yeshivah that denies any need to address the problem of safety is an unsafe place for a Jewish child. On a communal level, it is ONLY when parents begin to demand better for their children that they will influence the camps and yeshivas to do better.

While parents have custody and care of their children for most of their lives, camps and schools are supposed to be their replacements in taking care of the children in the parents' absence. If a parent would know that his children were being molested and did nothing to protect them, either out of denial, fear or any other motive, the parents could be charged criminally with child endagenerment and neglect. They could be punished or at the very least lose custody of their children. This was the case with a mother of 12 in Beit Shemesh recently that made international news. Camps and schools have been extremely negligent about their responsibilities, often seeking to protect their employees rather than the children. Jewish children deserve better and Jewish parents have a responsibility to their kids to demand better. It is that simple.

Let's face it. If you warn your child about abuse, and then someone tries to touch him or her, they will be prepared to try to stop them. But not every molester will stop. And not every child will have the courage and skill to say no to someone whom they have been taught to trust like a counselor, a teacher a therapist or a rabbi. The children also realize quite perceptively, that an organization like a school or a camp has a bias towards believing the employee and not the child. The child will be afraid of getting punished (as has happened many times) by the camp or school for saying something "untrue". Even if the child has the courage and wisdom to tell his parents, it is a known fact that often times parents do not know how to respond appropriately and when confronting the camp/school are intimidated into either minimizing what happened, keeping it quiet, or at best taking their child out of the camp/school. There is very litte redress that parents have with camps or schools to confront the employee who has molested.

So, we can give "the talk" to our children, but we must be careful not to place responsibility for children's safety onto them when in fact, in a dangerous world, there is a reason that Hashem has entrusted them to their parents. Its for the parents to have "the talk" with ALL other adults with whom they place their child's care. As one writer recently commented, you would do the same if you were dropping off a precious diamond or investing money with someone. You would want to know their policies, and get assurances and references about how they handle different dangerous situations. When it comes to your most precious children how can you accept any less?

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if you close down their former haunt, they will simply find another. If you try and keep them to occupied I am also not sure that this will be met with success...

I just wish that people would have the wisdom to realize that it is better something infront of you than something behind your back. I'm certain that alot goes on at these places that not only is a source of agmus hanefesh for the parents, but for the teens as well. I briefly met a girl who, for instance, had met a boy by accident, fallen in "love" and had ended up spending quite a bit of time cuddling with him, and she had been quite innocent. She regrets this now terribly, but her emotions overwhelmed her, and pressed as she was to keep it secret, there wasn't anything to help her and her friend to hold themselves back.

... People, especialy teens, have feelings and desires, and they can hold themselves back, they just need help. I think it would be better that we let this happen where we know about it, and can protect the teens from the worst incidents, than to leave them retreating to a place where the only thing controlling their emotions is their own sense of self control, which many abnigate in favor of being liked, the intense emotions they feel, whatever.

I don't think that by chasing after every new "hangout" we're going to get very far, other than to push them further and further from our reach.

I don't think I'm making much sense, but I plead of those present, I'd say that most kids are doing this, especialy if they are not extremely successful in school and in their yiddishkeit, maybe they're doing it only a little, and maybe much more, but I'd say that most (I'll not even guess by how much. maybe just one more than half, maybe almost all, I really don't know) are doing this, and please, don't push them beyond your reach, don't reject them for it, please understand, they, all of us have feelings that we struggle to control, and they aren't just for doing entirely innapropriate things. They're being normal teenagers, and I think that it is better to help them, guide them, and if necessery tollerate slight indescrescion where it is under your watch, so that you can protect them from making mistakes that not only you will but upset about, but they likely will too, they're not looking to do anything so wrong, so please don't just toss them out.

The girl I mentioned above felt like a slut for slipping up like that, like it was something that noone ever does and people would never forgive her. Torah mentions that everyone makes indescretions in their youth "all of the above relates to the initial appointment of a person as shliach tzibbur. he should not be discharged because disparaging reports circulated about him in his adolescence" and I think that we need to be chessedik and understanding about these things.

how many kids make one mistake because they meet someone they like and do something without permanant consequences, and are thereafter shoved out from the distain and scorn they receive from the community?

"Lo amad al dam reicha" we can't stand by while this sort of thing happens. we cannot simply condemn teenagers for doing what teenagers do, especialy when we wantonly and unabashedly discard the words of chazal about this, and delay marriage beyond the age they decreed as the deadline.

sorry for the trouble, I just plead of you not to push them in to "cavorting" beyond your daled amos, because things will only be worse, for them and for you. who can count the souls who are lost to this?

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We all know how much Rabbi Horowitz does for Klal Yisroel out of his exceptional care and concern for each Yid. It is unmitigated chutzpah to use this forum to express ill-conceived personal attacks on him.

Rabbi Horowitz, the only thing I can say is that Dale Carnegie has written in one of his books that unwarranted criticism is usually a backhanded compliment. Please continue with your wonderful work and pay no attention to comments like these.

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All Rabbi Horowitz did was highlight an on-going problem which the “gedolim” blasted on this forum willfully neglected. Instead of fighting the scourge of real threats to yiddishkeit to protect the innocent children, they chose to fight against Slifkin. They banned a potential kiruv tool, without replacing it with a better alternative. That is why these “gedolim” are being blasted.

If you can’t see the difference, go back to the bais medrash and stay out of the coffee room.

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If you have an issue with something Rabbi Horowitz says or does, you are more than welcome to express your concern in a respectful way. From what I know of Rabbi Horowitz, I believe he would have no problem with that.

For the record, I have never read anything written by Rabbi Horowitz where he attacked someone personally, and certainly not a "gadol". In fact, I think we could all learn a lot from the careful way Rabbi Horowitz speaks about those things which he disagrees with.

What I do know is that recently on this site, someone posted some negative comments about Rabbi Wachsman, and they were removed.

As far as your question about the ban on Nosson Slifkin, I don't know what comments you are referring to.

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As a scientist with a graduate degree from MIT, who is priviledged to be the descendant of prominent Gedolei Yisroel, I can show that Slifkin is naive and well-intentioned, but absolutely wrong!

However, I defer to my distinguished colleague HaRav Moshe Meiselman SHLIT"A (Rosh Yeshiva and MIT Doctor of Science) who -- I was told -- is writing a book on this subject. Upon publication, Rav Meiselman's Sefer should be required reading!

Right now I am very upset with some Rabbis (including the executive vice president of OU) who continue to advocate Slifkin's books, in spite of the Isur (prohibition) placed on them by Gedolei Yisroel!

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Additionally, I can recall quite clearly the "scene" that was prevalent in many of the small-town hangouts in the Catskills when I was in high school. There was plenty going on ten years ago, I can assure you. In fact, if I recall correctly, one town was "banned" one summer--but it didn't have much effect, as the kids who didn't care about behaving properly ignored it just as they ignored all of the other rules of society and halacha. The kids who tried to pretend they weren't getting into as much trouble just moved one town over.

Still, better to wake up now than never. Thank you, Rabbi Horowitz, for bringing this to everyone's attention.

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A non-Jewish scientist approached Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L (or, perhaps, Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky ZT"L) and asked why the Rav's grandchildren respect him but those of the scientist do not respect their grandfather?

The Rav ZT"L replied that his children were taught that they are descendants of Adam and Chavah, created by the Ribono Shel Olam. Those of the scientist were told that their ancestor is the original monkey.

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Has it ever occurred to you that different segments of Frum society recognize different Gedolim than you do? Not that they deny that your Gedolim are great Torah scholars, just that your Gedolim are not their leaders.

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To my knowledge, there are NO contemporary Gedolim endorsing Natan Slifkin's books. Those who oppose him are a very distinguished group of our greatest living Talmidei Chachomim.

The allegations by Slifkin, an OU rabbi, and some other lower-level rabbis that deceased Rabbonim would have endorsed his views is utter nonsense. It is legitimate to argue whether a ban or a simple statement of warning from the Gedolim is more appropriate, but it is clear that the Gedolim regard his books as objectionable, anti-Torah. His intentions may have been good, but the results are spiritual poison.

Perhaps we should wait for the forthcoming Sefer by the disinguished Rosh Yeshiva, HaRav (Doctor of Science) Moshe Meiselman SHLIT"A on this subject.

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I have studied this matter and have discussed it with leading Rabbanim.

The fact is that all the Gedolim you mentioned -- the Rambam, Rav Yitzchak of Ako, Rav Sadia Gaon, Rav Yosef Dov Soloveichik, Rav Aharon Soloveichik, and Rav Aryeh Kaplan, Zeicher Tzadikim LiVrachah -- all held that the Ribono Shel Olam created this World in six days.

The confusion caused by Slifkin and his supporters is that they are misquoting Medrashim and works by the above Gedolim that state that this is not the only World He created. Yes, the Ribono Shel Olam created other Worlds (He was "Boneh Olamos UMachrivam"); but this World He created in six days, as He stated clearly and repeatedly in the Torah HaKedoshah.

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second of all, you have blatantly missundertood the statements of those rabbanim, and twisted and perverted words that are clear and pure to anyone who chooses to read them.

the ramabam says, and I quote "the maise bereshis is a secret which cannot be grasped from the verses at all"

rav sadia goan says explicitly that it is an alagory (and it is a very good one at that) there are countless midrashim that mention adam's children marrying pre adamic women in order to fulfil the mitzvah. There are other sources that state that there were 9 hundred something generations of people before adam.

Further the ramban clearly speaks about both being true, a world that is 5700 years old and also that is 15 billion years old, as does his student rabbi yitzchak. the worlds that were created and destroyed were not destroyed in the sense that you are understanding it. This is clear from the statements of rabbi yitzchak of akko regarding the secret of the yoivel.

and you are a heratic for suggesting that these rabbis could, g-d forbid, err in the above mentioned matter.

there were long two different schools, one held that the maise bereshis was an alagory, and the other held that it was litteral, both held them clearly on the basis of long standing tradition stretching back in to hoary antiquity.

you are twisting and perverting their words for the sake of hegimony, R"L, and I would suggest that you turn away from that wayward, wicked and rebellious path and recognize the eilu veilu here.

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(and I will note, that most people do not spend so much time studying the words of midrashim or chumash or nach, nor many of the other works of these rabbis. they spend too much of their time on gemorah to be able to afford to, and as rabbi elyashiv once mentioned when someone asked him about the meaning of a pasuk, he told them "why ask me? I'm a posek not a baal mikra!"

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I respectfully submit that the issues regarding Maasei Breishis are esoteric and beyond the capability of most of us to fully comprehend. This is an Inyan where the admonition of the Sages in Pirkei Avos "Asei Lecha Rav" definitely applies.

My Rabeiim have taught that the well-known statement of the Meforshim "Ein HaMikra Yotzei Midei Pshuto" always applies. As the Torah HaKedoshah -- the Words of the Ribono Shel Olam -- states repeatedly, clearly, and unequivocally, that He Created this World in Six Days, that is the absolute truth. Understanding what the RAMBAN and other Gedolim have said requires assistance from a competent Rav.

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As Rav Meiselman's Torah knowledge is obviously far beyond that of Slifkin and his relevant science knowledge is comparable, I sincerely believe we should look forward to his forthcoming Sefer/book.

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a rav is not qualified to speak about the chumash

This is the worst nonsense I ever heard!!!

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From Comment No. 22 a rav is not qualified to speak about the chumash

This is the worst nonsense I ever heard!!!

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Where can we read his views on science and other subjects?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Meiselman

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