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I don't know why, but this was a harder question to answer.
Somehow, I expect more from my boys than my girls with regard to avodas Hashem, but I'm not sure that's a correct mindset.
I'm anxious to see how the end results of this poll compare to the last, almost identical one, about daughters.
9/25/07 - 11:17 AM
Um, your percentages do not work.
there is no way that you could have 175% in one poll.
but I said listen to their reason for disconect. I don't have kids yet, but I know right now, given that I'm having trouble going to shul and davening, I'd like it if someone listened and cared what was bothering me.
Good selection of possible solution, but none of them would work, in my opinion.
The reason that the kids are sleeping in until noon is because they went to bed at 3 the night before. Lacking a strong incentive for an inner fight, they sleep until their body clock wakes them up, which is at about noon. Guilt over sleeping past nine also reinforces why they find it so hard to get up between 9-12.
And why are they up until so late at night? Assuming they are at home, they are looking for quiet time alone. So if you and your wife both agree to go to bed at ten, perhaps they will get to bed at 12. After a zman filled with people and noise they just like to experience themselves for a while.
Why else might they stay up so late? They need to catch up on Harry Potter 7. Some books are seriously addictive, so I would not blame anyone who cannot put them down. Fortunately there are only 7 books in this series, but they can be read a number of times each. And what do these books give them? A high. A wonderful feeling of being in a world without grownups, with magical powers, with sports etc. Babyish perhaps, but feeding into human inclinations. (Disclaimer: I did not read this book, nor do I recommend doing so).
What other pleasures might they be giving up if they go to bed? Well most kids have a lot of guilt about not helping enough. So they couldn't possibly go to bed until they are dog tired, or they might have to face their guilt. The guilt would be difficult to bear, especially since they are not planning on doing Teshuva for that. Other kids are jealous of their friends who seem to have phenomenal trips planned for everyday of chol hamoed, while they have limited funds or their parents want to spend (sneeeeer) family time.
A kid would not even know he is thinking all these thoughts. But if your kid goes to bed really late, it is normal, but it is also specific. It is because of like ten different specific stressors. You can try to hear the kid out, (it's actually a good idea) but don't expect their behavior to improve until you have eliminated/explained away/empathized with at least 8/10 of the problems. (It might even worsen in the process - get professional guidance). If you elimate 8/10 of the evolving issues, at this point he has a fighting chance to deal with his Yetzer Horah in the morning.
And by the way kids, you can do this for yourselves. We all need to grow up at some point. Growing up means recognizing that these kind of discussions are not what everyone's parents can have, and you might need to seek someone better qualified than them. The paradox is how sometimes loads of other people go dafka to your parents for advice! But you may/will need other mentors/older friends/Rabbis/counsellors, unless you are very close with and accepting of yourself.
A lot of people associate keeping Mitzvos with love for their parents, and amazingly, they do wrong things only to express anger against their parents. These people don't have anything against Hashem - they don't even think of Hashem! It is all about the parents. Even mature people who have left home years before are still known to do self-destructive behavior just to show that they do not agree with/are angry with their parents. Who, by the way, are in another country. We have to learn to let go of these associations when they do not apply anymore.
Hi, The sleep issue is also a problem during school. Kids are tired in the mornings, sleep during the Gemorrah shiurim or are half awake, the body then wakes up towards noon and your second wind can keep you going well into the night. So resetting the biological clock is a factor as well. ( kids who have sleep issues sometimes find a natural substance Melotanin helpful )
When you don't have a reason to get up and have a productive day IMHO , getting up for a minyan is a poor motivator. I know a friend who was pretty creative and encouraged his kid to start playing tennis, gave some coaching, even went and played with him. Now one can't play tennis in the summer here are 9:30 , so the kid used to go with his dad to minyan at 6:00 and before 7:00 they were on the tennis court. This gave the kid more drive, started playing with friends , pleny of action.
I think kids as a community need to brainstorm and see how they can help their friends. Doverning should be seen as a communal effort and each kid has his role. The kids themselves would use positive peer pressure and maybe organize with adult help other activities around the doverning time. Kids need to engage the issue , feel an areivus towards their friends and the type of doverning , learning and social environment they want. The kids, together with their teachers and getting help and ideas from parents have to be proactive in finding solutions not only for the doverning but giving kids a reason to get and start their day in the mornings. Not easy and most important , dovern for them ( not instead of them)
The kids see bein hazmanim as chofesh -- a vacation. They've been getting up early every morning at yeshivah. They've been up late for night seder, and maybe a little talking with friends afterwards. They're teens who need a lot of sleep. They're tired. It's true that they should be getting up to daven, but maybe there's a minyan nearby that davens as late as permitted. When faced with the necessity of getting up for 6:00 or 7:00 minyan, maybe they just can't do it, but a later minyan might be possible for them. Or maybe they need to sleep until 12 noon for a day or two, and then they can get into a more reasonable schedule.
10/8/07 - 2:19 PM
there you go again, figuring out a question to knock the black hat comunitee.
10/8/07 - 2:48 PM
When kids (esp age 12+) can't get up in the morning, check for internet use late at night.
Quote Mark - there you go again, figuring out a question to knock the black hat comunitee
well that's one way of interpreting others actions. but IMHO , you are way off the Mark.
10/9/07 - 9:32 AM
sorry your wrong. did he have to word the q yeshiva bochurim? why could he not ask about teenage sons??? dont say thats the way the q came in, we all know that the q's are subbmited by the rabbi himself
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